The "buy a green card" program was so corrupt it had to be shut down, but John Kerry wants it again

[thunder rising]

The last time it was a straight $1M for a green card and it was entirely corrupt.

http://kerry.senate.gov/cfm/record.cfm?id=322472

But I guess his India buddies have convinced him that since they control the employment market anyway, they may as well be able to live here. Now the Tata execs can have dual citizenship and dance across the borders like fairies. The bill doesn't even specify that the jobs have to be filled by Americans.

Can anybody see a problem with this plan?

he just can't sell us out fast enough.
There is obviously no competition for AMERICAN talent ... we're unemployed. It's only about the money.


“Global competition for talent and investment grows more intense daily and the United States must step up or be left behind,” said Sen. Kerry. “Everywhere Dick Lugar and I travel for the Foreign Relations Committee, we see firsthand the entrepreneurial spirit driving the economies of our competitors. Creating a new magnet for innovations and innovators to come to the United States and create jobs here will offer our economy a double shot in the arm – robust job creation at home and reaffirmation that we’re the world’s best place to do business.”

Assholes can't provide Health Care and have to beg for unemployment benefits, but lets bring in more foreign sub-talent to displace more Americans.

[joeybee12]

1. "...innnovators to come to the United States..." yeah, at half the salary

of an American worker.

[n2doc]

2. That's really going to help drop the unemployment rate

Sometimes I just get the feeling these F**kers just want Americans to commit mass suicide, just so they can replace them with docile, cheap foreign labor. How the hell did Kerry become the pres nominee in 04? I guess the same way all of them do, selling out.

[thunder rising]

3. Notice that I posted his official spin instead of some filtered news article. Is he slipping?

like spending too much time with Lugar?

[karynnj]

12. Yeah - but it is clear you did not read it

[Starbucks Anarchist]

4. So what's the problem?

The immigrant entrepreneur is funded by an American investor and must create jobs here to obtain citizenship for himself.

And there's no mention of India at all in the release, so it seems odd on your part to assume they'd all be Indians. Would an Australian entrepreneur be okay with you? A German? A Mexican?

[Uzybone]

6. there is a good deal of racism on these boards

usually hidden under the cover of "they turk ahhh jobs!!!"

[Starbucks Anarchist]

7. Definitely.

And obviously, being against H-1B visas does not make one racist, but when people keep seeing India/Indians under every rock, there might be a problem there.

Of course, many of these vocal people have said nothing at all about illegal immigrants undercutting wages. Then again, those aren't "good jobs" at risk.

[high density]

8. Racism?

Yes, it's quite racist to want to preserve high wage, decent jobs in the USA and to fill them with US workers.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

10. How do you know the jobs the entrepreneur creates won't be filled by Americans?

[Romulox]

17. Because he keeps abreast of the news? nt

[Starbucks Anarchist]

25. You mean the press release he cited?

The one that said nothing at all about those entrepreneur-created jobs going to foreigners?

[karynnj]

20. The whole point is that it creates American jobs. nt

[thunder rising]

26. When money buys a green card .. .it's corrupt, period. No further proof needed

[Starbucks Anarchist]

31. So let me get this straight.

The foreign entrepreneur must find an American investor to invest at least six figures in his startup, THEN hire at least five Americans for full-time jobs, AND find $1 million more in capital or achieve the same amount in revenue, which would be taxed and spent in this country...

and from all that, you think Americans will be displaced from their jobs?

:rofl:

[thunder rising]

37. So, $2M for a green card? That's all? The old program was $1M. No specification for Americans

[Starbucks Anarchist]

39. "Robust job creation at home" (from the press release) implies Americans.

The EB-5 and -6 programs offer green cards and citizenship to the entrepreneur, not his employees.

Unless you can solidly prove that the immigrant entrepreneur will import H-1Bs for employees, you have no case. End of story.

[thunder rising]

56. H1-B's can fill any job for which there is no "qualified" American. Can't stop it. QED

[Starbucks Anarchist]

58. And you know that H-1Bs will fill those jobs... how, exactly?

Oh wait, you have no proof. Just standard-issue paranoia.

[thunder rising]

60. 'scuse me? How did the 6M (old number) H1-Bs get here now? They were more "qualified" than Americans

qualified means willing to be an indentured slave. Something an American will not do.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

61. Again, how do you know for a fact these particular jobs will be filled by H-1Bs?

There is absolutely nothing in the press release that would indicate these jobs will be filled by them.

By your "logic," *all* jobs are filled by H-1Bs.

You have yet to produce a shred of proof that H-1Bs will take these jobs. All you did was go by a press release mentioning a NON-H-1B visa program (one where only 2% came from India) and somehow extrapolated from that that the jobs the entrepreneur will create will be filled by H-1Bs, despite having no proof whatsoever.

[karynnj]

52. Where do you get $ 2 Million for the green card?

You are totally misreading what is written.

[blm]

38. I don't think reading comprehension is a factor here - this 'analysis' sounds like Glenn Beck

and his anti-immigrant teabagger pals wrote it. heheh

[pampango]

32. The GAO did a report in 2005 on the EB-5 visa and said it was underutilized.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/3327774/GAO-EB-5-report

Congress authorized 10,000 such visas a year but from 1992 to 2004 only 6,024 total had been issued for those 14 years, so only about 5% of the visas that Congress authorized were ever issued.

39% were from Taiwan, 14% from South Korea, 12% from China, 9% from Europe, and 2% from India.

The GAO determined that there was no problem with compliance as far as meeting the requirement that 10 jobs be created, but could not estimate the total jobs because the government did not keep track after the 10-job requirement was met. There was no issue raised that any of the jobs went to unauthorized workers, so they must have been Americans or legal immigrants.

If anyone has an analysis of the EB-5 visa program that gives more detail or another view than this, I'd be interested to see it. The idea of foreigners immigrating here and investing their own money to create jobs seems like a good thing.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

34. Thank you for the info.

Of course, in the OP's mind, that 2% from India will translate to 100%.

[blm]

46. Thanks...some here are intent on distorting the entire meaning of the proposal.

Your post should help those looking for REAL info.

[invictus]

23. +1

[blm]

47. this is ABOUT filling US jobs with US workers. The OP's analysis is total BULLSHIT

Read the thread about Hugo Boss factory in Cleveland. The company is leaving and the workers want it to stay. That's CLEVELAND, OHIO workers wanting to KEEP their decent paychecks working for a company owned by a foreigner.

Sheesh. When did READING become unpopular around here?

rhino47 (1000+ posts) Wed Mar-03-10 02:32 PM
Original message
Keep jobs in Cleveland.Call Hugo Boss

Hugo Boss is planning to move their plant to Turkey.It is profitable in Cleveland but they decided that they wanted more profit that lower wages in Turkey would supply.
Call Hugo Boss @ 212-940-0600 or email chairman at [e-mail]




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh5a01FeCxc

[Romulox]

16. And lots of accusations of racism by cheap labor shills too. It gets confusing. nt

[Starbucks Anarchist]

44. Pointing out the OP's imagining of cheap labor when there aren't any is a sign of a problem.

Especially when the visas in the press release had only a 2% use by Indians.

And this from his OP doesn't help his case:

But I guess his India buddies have convinced him that since they control the employment market anyway, they may as well be able to live here.

I had no idea Indians controlled the entire employment market, especially since the total number of Indians in this country is roughly 1% of the population.

:rofl:

[blm]

48. Now WHY do all these Cleveland workers want to keep working for a foreign business like Hugo Boss?

rhino47 (1000+ posts) Wed Mar-03-10 02:32 PM
Original message


Keep jobs in Cleveland.Call Hugo Boss

Hugo Boss is planning to move their plant to Turkey.It is profitable in Cleveland but they decided that they wanted more profit that lower wages in Turkey would supply.
Call Hugo Boss @ 212-940-0600 or email chairman at [e-mail]




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh5a01FeCxc

[thunder rising]

57. What's the alternative ... no job?

[blm]

69. YOU are the one who doesn't want foreign entrepreneurs starting businesses and hiring US workers

here in this country.

These people are well paid and DON'T want the company to leave and at the same time YOU are hoping foreign entrepreneurs WON'T come to US and hire US workers, at all, but, you are claiming it is because the only people hired will be cheap foreign labor and will take away US jobs - you really need to sharpen your comprehension skills. Your argument is total BULLSHIT, invented no differently than many of the current RW complaints.

[politicasista]

Yep, there is n/t

:(

[politicasista]

51. delete. dupe n/t

[blm]

36. Exactly - the post's exaggerations display an anti-immigrant bias that comes off no different than

anti-immigrant teabaggers.

[thunder rising]

40. And there is no such thing as a cheap labor shill on this site ...

[blm]

42. You're hiding behind a BS argument of YOUR construct. This is NOT a cheap labor bill, and only

someone INTENT on distortion would claim it is. That...or someone with poor reading comprehension skills.

[thunder rising]

59. Then we disagree with the spin; cause the fact is this IS a cheap labor bill.

[karynnj]

66. The intent is adding jobs - there is nothing that argues that they will

be low wage jobs. I see nothing specifying the type of job, the skills needed, or the wages to be paid.

[blm]

71. PROVE IT. Because there is not one 'fact' in the base of your argument.

.

[high density]

5. Green cards = robust job creation at home

Umm, what?

It reminds me of this 2008 gem from Barbara Boxer:

U.S. Senators Barbara Boxer (D-CA) and Judd Gregg (R-NH) today introduced bipartisan legislation designed to improve U.S. technological competitiveness by allowing foreigners who graduate from U.S. universities with advanced degrees in high tech fields to obtain green cards if they have jobs waiting for them here in the U.S.

The Boxer-Gregg legislation would allow graduates from U.S. universities with advanced degrees in science, technology, engineering and math to obtain green cards without waiting in long lines, provided they have job offers from U.S. employers.

http://boxer.senate.gov/en/press/releases/060508.cfm

[karynnj]

14. This is not the same - this is for people who create jobs for others in the US

[thunder rising]

27. Right, more jobs Americans "don't want" or "are not qualified" to hold.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

35. You have a serious reading-comprehension problem.

[thunder rising]

41. And you seem to be much more of an expert at the "meaning" of this bill than a sooth sayer

[upi402]

9. A corporatist selling us out?

No way. Alert the media!
:grr:

[karynnj]

15. Kerry is not a corporatist

He has always been quite independent of them.

[Romulox]

19. He's a crappy "free tradin'" DLCer like the rest. nt

[invictus]

22. +1

[karynnj]

24. Kerry was briefly in the DLC,and always voted more like Kennedy than like them

Do you constantly post that Dean was a DLC governor - which he was. Kerry has had nothing to do with the DLC in the last 5 years. He has attended no meetings and Al From did not list him as one of the DLC people running for President when he listed Clinton, Vilsack, Bayh, and Warner - even though, at that point, he far out polled the later 3.

This is jobs in America, not jobs overseas.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

72. He dropped the DLC for the 2004 election because they became a liability.

I notice you didn't even attempt to defend Kerry's neoliberal economics and advocacy for so-called "free trade"!

Here's Kerry denouncing labor standards in trade acts! :wow:

Q : You have accused Gov. Dean of playing on workers' fears and advocating protectionism and saying that under him it threatens to throw the economy into a tail spin. It that fair?

KERRY: Yes, it is fair, because Gov. Dean has said very specifically that we should not trade with countries until they have labor and environment standards that are equal to the US. That means we would trade with no countries. It is a policy for shutting the door. It's either a policy for shutting the door, if you believe it, or it's a policy of just telling people what they want to hear.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/John_Kerry_Free_Trade.htm

[blm]

73. Dean was so strong for NAFTA he showed up at the signing ceremony. BTW...some real history for you:

it was Kerry who authored the labor protection language that AFL-CIO wanted in NAFTA bill, but, that Clinton and governors (inc Dean) did NOT want in the bill...so, Kerry's amendment was voted down.

Kerry answering to a specific part of the exchange was not the whole of this issue, and, your intention to make it out like Dean was more progressive on labor and environment is cute, but hardly accurate. Dean BECAME more progressive during the primary - fine, it was a CONTEST, after all. But, please, stick to REAL history, will ya? Dean and Kerry would both agree that their camps exaggerated their differences during the primary campaigns.

[Romulox]

76. Dean's advocacy for NAFTA doesn't obviate Kerry's. They are/were BOTH DLCers, after all.

"your intention to make it out like Dean was more progressive on labor and environment is cute"

Um, what are you talking about? Dean was involved in this exchange, so I quoted him. That's all. I have nothing invested in the relative purity of Howard Dean vs. that of John Kerry.

And your explications reads a LOT like the "I voted for it before I voted against" mealy-mouthedness that Mr. Kerry is so famous for. :shrug:

[blm]

77. I SAID...that short answer was NOT the whole of Kerry's position...if you were an activist who TRULY

cared about the issue, you would have known Kerry's fuller position and his role in pushing for greater labor and environmental protections in the NAFTA debate.

But....nope...you just HAVE to use your cherry-picked, shorthand version....Drudge-worthy research.

[blm]

45. Try READING first, or do you believe every anti-immigrant rant someone posts here?

.

[karynnj]

11. Rather biased spin you have there

The fact is that these are people who would be createing jobs in the US that do not exist at this point. They are not taking an existing job from anyone.

"Indian buddies??"

[thunder rising]

29. 'scuse me ... Kerry and Clinton were founders of the India Caucus in the Senate

[karynnj]

53. Excuse me, Kerry headed the SFRC that had oversite on India

For him not to have been on that would have been weird.

[thunder rising]

55. Nope, that is a conflict of interest. India Caucus was formed to promote H1-B imports

[karynnj]

62. It was Hillary Clinton and Cornyn who started the Senate India caucus in 2004

Kerry did not start the current India Caucus, nor is he on it. Here is the list of 37 Senators - no Kerry. http://www.usindiafriendship.net/congress1/senatecaucus/members.htm

Here is the history of the US Senate India Caucus, started in 2004. http://www.usindiafriendship.net/congress1/senatecaucus/senatecaucus.htm

Here is more:

WASHINGTON: US Senators John Cornyn and Hillary Clinton are to formally announce the creation of the first-ever Senate caucus dedicated to promote better relations between the US and India.

The Senate India caucus, formed on the lines of the Congressional caucus on India in the US House of Representatives, will bring together Republicans and Democrats to strengthen the relationship between the two countries and work toward common goals, including increasing trade and improving security in an age of global terror, a statement from Cornyn's office said.


The formal announcement would be made Thursday.

Cornyn and Clinton will co-chair the caucus, which includes Senate majority leader Bill Frist, minority leader Tom Daschle and Kay Bailey Hutchison. A total of 31 Senators have become members of the caucus.

http://www.siliconindia.com/shownews/Senate_India_caucus_to_be_announced___-nid-23957.html

As this was April 2004, Kerry was very busy. Cornyn and Kerry do not look or vote alike.

So, if you want conflict of interest, which there wouldn't be - and isn't for Dodd, the current chair, who is on the SFRC, go back to defending Edwards, where there is some conflict of interest in the way he might have used the UNC to develop a campaign platform.

[politicasista]

67. **Crickets** Good factual post n/t

[karynnj]

68. Thanks

I should have investigated first, even though there is not necessarily wrong with these caucuses. Their agenda is broader than VISAs - I went to look for that and found the rest of the stuff.

[RB TexLa]

64. Some people are always going to think foreigners are bad and good can only come from

red blooded 'Mericans.

[leveymg]

13. EB-5 was extended and is still on the books.

Lots of domestic-made "sub-talent" as well.

[thunder rising]

30. OMG...were giving American sub-talent H1-B so they can qualify for job Americans can't do

How clever.

[karynnj]

18. This has support in silicon valley

which kind of means that your spin is not how one of the most affected industry consider it.

The U.S. needs to be more welcoming of startup founders, no matter where they were born. But the illegal immigration debate is so politically sensitive that startup founders, who create tons of jobs, get lumped in with migrant farm workers and the discussion sort of comes to a crashing halt there. Now is the time for us to rally, though, and avoid this type of situation. There is real momentum behind the Startup Visa Act, and there’s a realistic chance that, for once, our government can do something to actually help the innovation ecosystem in Silicon Valley.

On Thursday 20 or so Silicon Valley entrepreneurs will travel to Washington D.C. to talk with government officials about the Act, introduced last week by Senator John Kerry (D-MA) and Richard Lugar (R-IN), and drum up more support. Venture capitalist Dave McClure is organizing the trip.

The Startup Visa Act of 2010 would create a two year visa for immigrant entrepreneurs who are able to raise a minimum of $250,000, with $100,000 coming from a qualified U.S. angel or venture investor. After two years, if the immigrant entrepreneur is able to create five or more jobs (not including their children or spouse), attract an additional $1 million in investment, or produce $1 million in revenues, he or she will become a legal resident.

What can you do to help? Tweet @2gov supporting #StartupVisa exactly at 10 AM Pacific on Wednesday March 3rd (tomorrow). Your messages will be collected and delivered during the group’s visit to the White House on Thursday. They’re hoping to get 5,000 tweets. I’m pretty sure we can do better than that.

http://techcrunch.com/2010/03/02/silicon-valley-delegation-to-go-to-d-c-to-rally-support-for-startup-visa-act/

Thanks to Beachmom for the article

[thunder rising]

33. A pubication called "TechCrunch" I suppose they support the idea that there IS a tech crunc?

[invictus]

21. K&R

[thunder rising]

43. The only reason to import innovators is 'cause there is no return on investment for Americans to

innovate.

As soon as a process becomes standardized .. .it's outsourced.

There is no pay incentive for Americans to earn a Ph.D. and Bush made it quite clear it education does not matter. It's who you know.

[blm]

49. LOL at the changed course of your outrage. As Bill Maher would say, 'Don't forget the Feign-Feign"

.

[thunder rising]

54. It ties together. We've have to let jobs in American rise to the level that makes bright people

pursue the course. There is a "good" value in immigration that is not being paid by the immigrants, or their sponsors, and it not available to citizens. That is basically the argument. Americans are not allowed to play on a level field, it's tilted toward cheap labor that Americans cannot live on.

I was born here and I have nowhere else to go. So, yes I do deserve to be protected by my government.

[karynnj]

65. What you say has nothing to do with this program

In fact, with a really good entrepreneur who starts a company that has good jobs in some field, Americans are the likely people to take them. What is it that these immigrants are getting that Americans can not get? The ONLY thing the government is giving is a green card and if they succeed in creating a business that provides jobs, they can quickly get citizenship - something you already have.

I honestly do not get what you mean by letting job rises to the level that bright people pursue the course. If what you mean is that you would like incentive programs to help Americans with good entrepreneurial ideas and a sensible business plan, those are things that Kerry and Snowe worked on for years in the Small Business Committee. They included women's centers that provided help in how to set up businesses and things like micro loans. I do think that in this economy more of this should be done (some small business help was in the stimulus) I don't know if this is what you meant - but it is answered as a good faith attempt to respond.

[blm]

70. YOU are the one who doesn't want foreign businesses to come to this country and PAY AMERICAN WORKERS

under the US standard for wages.

YOU are the one who wants companies to go elsewhere. YOU are the one who wants the labor to be paid by the standard in some other country. YOU are just too stubborn to admit that you read this proposal completely wrong. Either that, or you are distorting it DELIBERATELY for another agenda.

[politicasista]

50. Looks like the locusts swarmed out in force in this thread

It's usually the case every time the name "Kerry" or "Obama" appears in the title of various thread.

Of course, if their favorite liberal (no disrespect to any of them :)) was leading this, they would be cheering this on with less snark.

[tammywammy]

63. I have no problem with this. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

74. Who wouldn't want wealthy entrepreneurs to come to invest and create jobs in the US?

A lot of DUers, I guess. :-(

[pampango]

75. They're foreigners, don't you know, so they must be stealing my entrepreneurial opportunites,

as if I have that kind of capital to start a business. :)

They and their employees live here and pay taxes in the US. While there's no evidence that they are hiring anyone other than American citizens and legal immigrants in the businesses they create, they're still foreigners, you know, so how can you really trust them? (They are not like my ancestors. MY ANCESTORS were honest and willing to work hard, when they arrived here.) ;)

[blm]

78. Not a 'LOT' of DUers - most here at DU actually HAVE working knowledge of the English language and

some....apparently....do NOT. ;)

[Nye Bevan]

79. I guess you're right, I skimmed through the replies a bit too quickly (nt)

[blm]

80. heh....unfortunately, those with poor comprehension sklls seem to have alot to say...

like Dems don't get enough of that from corporate media.