BBC video report on rise in birth defects In Fallujah (after 2004 fighting)

[JohnyCanuck]

"Doctors in the Iraqi city of Fallujah are reporting a high level of birth defects, with some blaming weapons used by the US after the Iraq invasion.

The city witnessed fierce fighting in 2004 as US forces carried out a major offensive against insurgents.

Now, the level of heart defects among newborn babies is said to be 13 times higher than in Europe.

BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson visited a new, US-funded hospital in Fallujah where paediatrician Samira al-Ani told him that she was seeing as many as two or three cases a day, mainly cardiac defects."

Video at link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8549745.stm

[madokie]

1. And you know the number 1 prospect for that is, don't you?

Depleted uranium munitions, If they can't kill all of them today they sure can make their yet unborn children suffer, by gawd :sarcasm:

Why is DU munitions allowed?

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

4. Dioxin and similar compounds.

It is widely documented that they have serious problems with organic industrial contaminants in the water, including nasty mutagenic chemicals like dioxin (of Agent Orange fame).

I really don't get the fixation on depleted uranium, which is largely harmless. Anyone remotely familiar with the chemistry (and biochemistry) of depleted uranium could tell you that it does not have the properties being attributed to it. Most of the depleted uranium fetish is anti-science kookery.

[JohnyCanuck]

7. Tell it to these folks.

Dr. Fasy is an Associate Clinical Professor of Pathology at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City. He has longstanding interests in carcinogenesis and environmental toxicology. In the past two years, he has lectured at conferences and university campuses on the toxic effects of inhaling uranium oxide dusts derived from depleted uranium weapons.

Snip

By the early 1900s, uranium was well recognized to be a kidney toxin. By the mid-1940s, uranium was known to be a neurotoxin. By the early 1970s, uranium was recognized to be a carcinogen based on mortality studies of uranium workers and on experiments with dogs and monkeys. The first evidence that uranyl ions bind to DNA was reported in 1949 and by the early 1990s, uranium was shown to be a mutagen. Also, in the early 1990s, uranium was shown to be a teratogen, that is, an inducer of birth defects. The toxic effects of uranium on the kidney and on the nervous system typically occur within days of exposure and radiation probably plays little or no role in mediating these effects. In contrast, the carcinogenic effects of uranium have a delayed onset. The teratogenic effects of uranium might be due to exposure of one parent prior to conception as well as to exposure of the mother to uranium early in pregnancy.

Now let us briefly consider the routes of exposure to uranium. In the context of the dust particles derived from depleted uranium weapons, this means exposure to uranium oxides. By far the most dangerous route of exposure to uranium oxides is the inhalational or respiratory route. Absorption of uranium oxides through the gastrointestinal tract, the skin and the conjunctivae is possible but quite limited.

Following impact with hard targets, uranium metal undergoes combustion releasing large quantities of very small uranium oxide dust particles into the environment.

These dust particles derived from depleted uranium weapons are drastically different from the natural uranium that is normally present in rocks and soil.

Soil particles contain uranium at very low concentrations, typically less than 5 parts per million; the vast majority of these soil particles, however, are too large to be inhaled deep into the lungs. In contrast, the dust particles derived from depleted uranium weapons contain very high concentrations of uranium, typically more than 500.000 parts per million; moreover, most of the D.U. dust particles are sufficiently small to be inhaled deep into the lungs. Thus, compared to the uranium naturally present in the environment, D.U. dust contains uranium in a form that is vastly more bio-available and more readily internalized.

Uranyl ions bind to DNA; they bind in the minor groove of DNA. While bound to DNA, uranyl ions are chemically reactive and can give rise to free radicals which may damage DNA. Chemically mediated DNA damage of this type may contribute to the ability of uranium to induce cancers.

I would now like to present some epidemiologic data from the Basra governate in the south of Iraq. In February 1991, more than 300 tons (possibly much more than 300 tons) of D.U. weapons were used in South of Iraq. After 5-6 year latent periods, increases in childhood cancers and birth defects were documented in the Basra governate. The most recent data indicate a four fold increase in pediatric malignancies and a seven fold increase in congenital malformations compared to 1990, the year preceeding the war.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4124449

Uranium’s Effect On DNA Established

The use of depleted uranium in munitions and weaponry is likely to come under intense scrutiny now that new research that found that uranium can bind to human DNA. The finding will likely have far-reaching implications for returned soldiers, civilians living in what were once war-zones and people who might live near uranium mines or processing facilities.

Uranium - when manifested as a radioactive metal - has profound and debilitating effects on human DNA. These radioactive effects have been well understood for decades, but there has been considerable debate and little agreement concerning the possible health risks associated with low-grade uranium ore (yellowcake) and depleted uranium.

Now however, Northern Arizona University biochemist Diane Stearns has established that when cells are exposed to uranium, the uranium binds to DNA and the cells acquire mutations, triggering a whole slew of protein replication errors, some of which can lead to various cancers. Stearns' research, published in the journals Mutagenesis and Molecular Carcinogenesis, confirms what many have suspected for some time - that uranium can damage DNA as a heavy metal, independently of its radioactive properties. "Essentially, if you get a heavy metal stuck on DNA, you can get a mutation," Stearns explained. While other heavy metals are known to bind to DNA, Stearns and her team were the first to identify this characteristic with uranium.

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20060307010324data_trunc_sys.shtml

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

11. Congratulations, you discovered heavy metal toxicity.

If you did a little more research you would find that many other ubiquitous metals are as bad or worse.

If this is "ooh ooh scary!", then what about the other metals? Being able to monkey wrench organics is a general property of metals a short distance down the periodic table, never mind all the way down where uranium is.

[JohnyCanuck]

13. Difference between depleted uranium and other heavy metals

The depleted uranium in the pointy end of shells and bombs when it hits the targe burns and disperses itself into the surrounding atmosphere as extremely tiny fragments of depleted uranium oxide (to a greater extent than other heavy metals (like lead, for example) would disperse in a similar situation). These tiny particles can easily be taken into the lungs through respiration and from there cross the lung blood barrier into the blood stream. Once in the blood stream the particles of depleted uranium oxide are free to wreak further havoc on the body's DNA both through its properties as a heavy metal and through the (mostly) alpha particles it emits as a source of radiation.

The alpha radiation is much more deadly to cells when the source of alpha radiation is inside the body than when the alpha particles bombard the body from outside. Since the alpha particles are, relatively speaking, low energy particles, clothing and even the layer of dead skin cells on the outside of the body can shield the living tissue from the effects of alpha radiation. However once the source of alpha radiation is inside the body, the living cells exposed to the alpha particles have no such protection and are therefore subject to damage from the alpha radiation to a much greater extent.

The danger posed by DU in weapons:

1. When DU weapons hit a target, a fine aerosol of uranium oxides is formed. The majority of particles (46 - 70%) are less than 10 microns.
2. The aerosol-like particles (dust) are easily inhaled into the lungs.
3. These fine particles can be spread by the wind and are readily re-suspended by modest breezes or vehicle and personnel movements. There is no existing study measuring the distance traveled by such particles. However, there is a documented instance were particles were physically captured 42 km from a test site. (Dietz 1999).
4. This only proves migration beyond the specific site but does not preclude the possibility that particles can travel a great many times more kilometers. Fluid dynamic studies report that particles fewer than 5 microns can remain almost permanently suspended in the atmosphere.
5. While some of the DU is soluble, the majority (in the form of other oxides) is insoluble and remains in the body for years. Once in the body, DU slowly spreads from the lungs, mainly into the lymph nodes and bone. Excretion from the body is very slow.
6. The uncontrolled use and spread of uranium goes against the scientifically established conventions for handling radioactive substances and contravenes international laws. See the case made by Karen Parker at the UN that DU weaponry is illegal under existing human rights and humanitarian (armed conflict) law
7. It is estimated that 300 - 800 metric tons of DU were deposited in the battlefield in Iraq and Kuwait in 1991. Dr. Doug Rokke (DU expert and former US army physicist) estimated that 120 to 480 million grams of DU would be aerosolized if 40% of the DU were burnt up.
8. These airborne and respirable sized particles will be radioactive for billions of years into the future.

http://www.umrc.net/uranium_and_weapons.aspx

There are three main routes through which DU exposure on the battlefield takes place: inhalation, ingestion and wounding.(2) As a DU penetrator hits its target some of the DU from the weapon reacts with the air in the ensuing fire and becomes a fine dust (often called an 'aerosol') that makes inhalation and ingestion a possibility for those in the area. Even after the dust has settled, the danger remains that it may be resuspended in the future by further activity or the wind, and again pose a threat to civilians and others for many years into the future. DU particles have been reported as travelling twenty-five miles on air currents.(3) Open wounds also allow a gateway for DU into the body and some veterans have also been left with DU fragments in their bodies, remaining after combat.

Inhaled DU dust will settle in the nose, mouth, lung, airways and guts. As a DU penetrator hits its target, the high temperatures caused by the impact ensure the DU dust particles become ceramic and therefore water insoluble. This means that, unlike other more soluble forms of uranium, DU will stay in the body for much longer periods of time. This aspect of uranium toxicology has often been ignored in studies of the health effects of DU, which base their excretion rates on soluble uranium. DU dust can remain in the sticky tissues of the lung and other organs such as the kidneys for many years. It is also deposited in the bones where it can remain for up to 25 years.(4) This helps explain why studies of Gulf War veterans have found that soldiers are still excreting DU in their urine over 12 years after the 1991 conflict (5) . Ingested DU can be incorporated into bone and from there will irradiate the bone marrow, increasing the risk of leukaemia and an impaired immune system. (6)

External exposure to DU entails exposure to alpha, beta and gamma radiation. Although the skin will block alpha particles, beta and gamma radiation can penetrate beyond the dead outer skin layers and damage living tissue. Beta particles can penetrate to a depth of 2 cm, while gamma radiation (through a process called 'the Compton effect') generates beta particle radiation along its trajectory through the body. Neither is all external exposure to alpha radiation harmless. Cataracts, for example, can be caused by exposure to alpha radiation.(7)

Inside the body, DU poses a health risk in a variety of ways to different organs. The kidneys are the first organ to be dfamaged by DU. At a high dose kidney uranium levels can lead to kidney failure within a few days of exposure.8 Lower doses lead to kidney dysfunction, and can lead to an increased risk of kidney disease later in life.


http://www.viewzone.com/du/du.html

How about I come over to your house, Alias Dictus Tyrant, and let loose a whole bunch of these ceramic depleted uranium oxide particles around your kids' sandbox? You wouldn't have a problem with that right?

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

14. Nope, wouldn't have a problem with DU oxides in the sandbox.

Depending on where the sand came from, the sand might be a bigger hazard.

Sorry, I have an actual chemistry background that includes handling radioactive materials. Did you know depleted uranium is used as radiation shielding? I have a good sense of the exposure risks. Depleted uranium isn't any scarier or more toxic than many other metals that no one ever cares about. Plenty of peer-reviewed scientific literature to back that up if anyone actually cared to look.

Depleted uranium is also less radioactive than many materials around the average household. Perhaps you should worry about those first.


The selective quote mining that is being provided as evidence on these threads reminds me a lot of creationist arguments. I thought Democrats were supposed to be the pro-science party or at least have some standards that biased them toward scientific arguments. Instead I'm seeing a lot of cut-n-paste from kook sites.

[JohnyCanuck]

15. You can't breath depleted uranium into your lungs

and have it go go from there into your bloodstream and into other parts of your body when it is used as radiation shielding - like you can when it becomes aerosolized particles of depleted uranium oxide So because it was used as radiation shielding doesn't mean squat in the context of its use in an exploding warhead. If you can't see the difference, I'd love to know the exact extent of your chemistry background? Maybe you can enlighten us. Not to mention, I'm damned glad I'm not your kid.

Lurkers and observers who would you be inclined to put your trust in on this matter - Alias Dictus Tyrant with his alleged "chemistry background" who apparently can't see the difference between a big hunk of depleted uranium sitting totally outside the body and breathing into your body multitudes of tiny particles of depleted uranium oxide which are then lodged inside the body to continuously poison the body over a number of years through their heavy metal toxicity as well as their irradiation of sensitive, interior body tissues

or

Thomas Fasy MD PhD. Associate Clinical Professor of Pathology at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City. He has longstanding interests in carcinogenesis and environmental toxicology. In the past two years, he has lectured at conferences and university campuses on the toxic effects of inhaling uranium oxide dusts derived from depleted uranium weapons?

To me that's not a hard question to answer.

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

16. Once the oxide hits ground, it is no longer available.

You (and the good doctor) are making large assumptions about the availability of uranium oxide as a dust. That assumption is incorrect so the fact that the dust is bad news if inhaled into the lungs does not really matter. Furthermore, there is a lot of literature studying uranium concentrates in the environment and the impact on surrounding populations. Generally speaking, it doesn't get into peoples' lungs. Not surprising considering the material transport properties of uranium oxide.

As an alpha emitter, it is weaker than other materials in your house. Feel free to get all paranoid about that too.

I smell a lot of "if" coming off your hypothesis.

[JohnyCanuck]

18. "Once the oxide hits ground, It is no longer available".

Well now, I just ain't so sure about that.

Airborne Transport of Uranium Particles

The fallout range of airborne DU aerosol dust is virtually unlimited. These micro-particles can be inhaled and ingested easily and that makes them dangerous to human health. Environmental assessments for sites which process DU or test fire DU munitions typically downplay the potential for widespread fallout of DU particles. For example, one such environmental impact study in 1992 by the U.S. Army Ballistics Research Laboratory (Ref. 19) states, "Because of the mass and density of the DU particle, it only travels short distances when airborne. These two factors alone preclude the off-site release of DU." This is not true for micrometer-size particles of uranium metal or its oxides. In fact, the transport of airborne DU aerosol particles was well known long before the Army Ballistics Research Laboratory environmental impact study was written, since in 1976 it had been measured up to a distance of 8 km (Ref. 20). What may not have been fully appreciated in 1976 was that DU aerosol particles could be transported by wind action over much greater distances.

In 1979 the author worked at the Knolls Atomic Power Laboratory (KAPL) in Schenectady, New York. While trouble shooting a radiological problem, he and his colleagues in the mass spectrometer component accidentally discovered DU aerosols collected in environmental air filters exposed at the Knolls site (Ref. 21). The origin of the DU contamination proved to be the National Lead Industries plant in Colonie, 10 miles (16 km) east of the Knolls site, on the western boundary of the city of Albany, NY. A local newspaper reported that NL was fabricating DU penetrators for 30-mm cannon rounds and airplane counterweights made of DU metal (Ref. 22). A total of 16 air filters at three different locations covering 25 weeks of exposure from May through October of 1979 were analyzed; all contained trace amounts of DU. Three of these air filters were exposed for four weeks each at a site 26 miles (42 km) northwest of the NL plant. This is by no means the maximum fallout distance for DU aerosol particles.

Totally unrelated to the discovery of DU in KAPL air filters, in February 1980, a court order by NY State forced NL to cease production, because they exceeded a NY State radioactivity limit of 150 microcuries for airborne emissions in a given month (Ref. 22). The plant closed in 1983 and is now being decontaminated and dismantled. The 150 microcuries corresponds to 387 g of DU metal. For comparison, one GAU-8/A penetrator in an aircraft 30-mm cannon round contains 272 g of DU metal (Ref. 5).

SNIP

Fallout range can be increased greatly by two more natural phenomena. First, frictional forces in the air or emission of an alpha particle from a uranium atom will electrostatically charge a DU particle. For example, it is well known that a high velocity ion striking a metal oxide surface will dislodge a pulse of secondary electrons from the surface (Ref. 26). An alpha particle is a high velocity helium ion, and it will generate a large number of secondary electrons below the surface of an uranium oxide particle as it passes through the surface. Many of the momentarily-free electrons just below the surface will escape from an airborne uranium oxide particle, leaving it in a positively-charged state. Like an electrostatic precipitator collecting dust in a room, an electrically-charged uranium dioxide particle and an oppositely-charged dust particle will attract each other and join together. The average density of the two particles together will be substantially less than 11 grams per cubic centimeter and the fallout range will be greatly increased. Fallout particles of DU also can become attached to sand or dust particles on the ground and then become resuspended in the air by wind or vehicle action and transported to new locations (Ref. 27). Desert sand in the Persian Gulf region is extremely fine (Ref. 28).(my emphasis /JC) Second, random motions of the atmosphere of a few cm/sec are of the same order of magnitude as the terminal velocities of micrometer particles of DU oxide or metal falling through air.

http://www.wise-uranium.org/dgvd.html

Regarding the (mostly) alpha radiation from depleted uranium, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the low-energy alpha radiation is much more harmful when it is bombarding the living tissue from within the body as opposed to bombarding the tissue from outside the body where it is usually blocked by clothing and the layer of dead skin cells present on the outside of the skin.

Note DUM = Depleted Uranim Munitions.

PROBABLE ORGANS AFFECTED BY THIS INTERNAL CONTAMINATION WITH DUM:

According to the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute, in Bethesda Maryland, the uranium oxide which moves into the blood from the lungs will accumulate in the kidney, tibia bone (the inner and larger bone of the leg below the knee) and the skull. They add that there will also be significant concentration in muscle, spleen, liver, heart, lung and brain.

WHAT DAMAGE CAN BE CAUSED BY THIS INTERNAL CONTAMINATION WITH DUM:

DUM contains a mixture of four radioisotopes: U 238, Th 234, Pa 234 and U234. The predominant isotope is U 238, but the two decay products, Th 234 and Pa 234 are more radioactive than uranium. This means they are subject to more frequent atomic level “explosions” or nuclear transformations than uranium. The sphere of greatest influence around an internal particle of DUM about 2 microns in size, is about 30 microns in radius. The energy released by U 238 (half life of 4.51X10E9 years) in each transformation is a 4.2 MeV (million electron volts) alpha particle; that released by Th 234 (half life of 24.1 days) is 0.191 MeV beta particles; that released by Pa 234 (half life 6.75 hours) is 0.568 MeV beta particles and some 0.31 gamma rays; U 234 (half life of 2.47 X 10E5 years) releases 4.82 MeV alpha particles. It is not likely that any other radionuclides will be present. However, it should be noted that the diameter of the average human living cell is about 5 microns, and it only requires 6 to 10 eV to break the DNA. Therefore there is no level of DUM contamination which one could consider “safe” or “harmless”.

http://iicph.org/annual_gulf_war_illness_conference

By the way Alias Dictus Tyrant, do you work for or are you retired from the nuclear industry - the industry that produces this toxic shite as a waste product and then, not knowing what the hell to do with it as the stock piles of it kept growing, thought it would be a great idea to sell it to the Pentagon generals to drop it and blow it up in other (mostly brown) peoples' countries as a good way to get rid of it?

[madokie]

10. Yeah you know don't you

as I said the problem in fallujah with the birth defects is largely caused by DU munitions. Did you read that, DU munitions is to blame here. Dioxin is what has me fucked up now and from my war. I'm just happy we didn't have DU munitions in 'Nam because chances are I'd be dead by now if we had of.

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

12. So you said

...but it is a nonsense argument.

Not only is depleted uranium not that bad as common heavy metals go, it tends to have low availability in the environment. We dump thousands of tons of uranium concentrates near population centers in the US every year, but there has been no corresponding increase in birth defects and cancer.

Did you know that iron is teratogenic (i.e. causes birth defects)? Most metals past the third row of the periodic table are toxic like this.

Trace quantities of nasty industrial organics will do far more damage to a population than large quantities of depleted uranium.

[madokie]

17. What tripe you just typed there

:rofl: You are in some serious need of some schooling in Depleted Uranium munitions is all I know for sure. good luck with that too :eyes:

How does one make argument with that I ask? Its kinda like the ole boy who wants to sell something for ten times its worth, where do you start with the price negotiations? A smart person just walks on as I will do here. :hi:

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

2. The water is contaminated with dioxin and industrial chemicals.

Iraq has serious problems with industrial waste in the water supply, including nasty mutagens like dioxin. Unfortunately, it is pretty difficult to clean that up since you can't just boil or treat water to get rid of those contaminants.

[leave iraq]

5. do you normally start discussions

and then post to yourself . ..

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

6. Post to myself? I replied to someone else... n/t

[lumpy]

9. Perhaps contaminated water AND depleted uranium causes

problems. Sometimes answers to problems are more complex.

[leave iraq]

3. when they bomb our subways and Sbarro Pizza shops

it WONT be because they hate our freedom

[pansypoo53219]

8. but you know the army is gonna pull that it anecdotal

better reporting bullshit. thanks georgee.