Roseanne Barr: Mormon Church Caused Marie Osmond's Son's Death

[Emit]

Friday, March 5, 2010
Roseanne Barr: Mormon Church Caused Marie Osmond's Son's Death

Leave it to Roseanne to tell it like it is.

"Marie Osmond's poor gay son killed himself because he had been told how wrong and how sick he was every day of his life by his church and the people in it. Calling that "depression" is a lie!

"Yet the Osmonds still talk lovingly about their church, saying nothing about its extremely anti-gay Crusade. Marie also has a gay daughter! ...

"G-d is trying to use you for something good and this is your opportunity! Your church is wrong and on the wrong wrong wrong side of things! Get as vocal about that as you are about your diet. G-d bless you too, Marie.

"Take a hard look at the facts now as you use this very sad time for introspection, healing growth and prayer, and become a strong symbol for loving mothers who make no apologies for hatred against their own kids!"

Right on, Roseanne!

It makes me sick too. What a brainwashing job. The Mormon Church reminds me so much of child abusers and wife beaters. Their victims want love so badly that, even while they're still bloody and bruised, theyt turn to their tormenter for solace. When you ask them why it happened, they inevitably reply, "It was my fault. I wasn't good enough. I deserved this." And the abuser, maybe for a minute or two, will aquiesce and give some comfort, reinforcing the submissiveness and neediness of the victim.

The Mormon Church is exceptionally good at this. Even in the face of the suicide of her son, Marie Osmond has turned to the very oppressor that tormented Michael. The Mormon Church taught her that Michael was deliberately living an evil lifestyle. The Mormon Church told Michael that he was going to Hell, to be forever tortured, and separated from God's glory. And worst of all, the Mormon Church told Michael and the Osmonds that homosexuality was a free choice, that Michael was deliberately doing this, that homosexuality was a choice, not part of how he was made.

~snip~

Every death is tragic, and my heart goes out to the Osmond family. But Roseanne is right: The Mormon Church's stand on homosexuality is immoral, cruel, and dangerous. And it's time for mothers like Marie Osmond to stand up and say it. It is an abusive religion with immoral beliefs.

http://religionvirus.blogspot.com/2010/03/roseanne-barr-mormon-church-caused.html

I was aware that Marie's daughter is gay, but I had not read that her son was, or is Roseanne making a huge assumption here?

On edit, fwiw, the only reference I found re her son being gay is this:

Marie Osmond on Suicide Watch; Son Michael “Conflicted Over Sexuality; Mormon Family” Before Death; Legal Name Change Details Sealed
Thursday, March 4, 2010

By Editorial Staff

We are reporting on this subject because we believe it can raise awareness about suicide and help people accept other people regardless of their sexuality.

Family and friends of Marie Osmond are keeping a close suicide watch on her following the Friday suicide death of her 18-year-old son Michael.

Michael jumped to his death from the eighth floor of his apartment building on the 900 block of S. Flower St. in Los Angeles near the school he was studying apparel manufacturing: the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising.

“I think Michael was distraught because he was conflicted over his sexuality and didn’t believe he could ever come out as a gay man to his religious Mormon family,” said a family insider to the National Enquirer.

“The family has placed what amounts to a suicide watch on Marie.”

~snip~

http://peoplemagazinedaily.com/?p=4924

[babylonsister]

1. This is so wrong imo. Roseanne needs to zip her lip; his death

is so new and raw, does his family need this now? Ugh.

[bbinacan]

15. Very well said. n/t

[WolverineDG]

20. No kidding

especially since Marie has taken a very public, supportive stance for her gay daughter AND there is nothing but gossip from a "family insider" to support Roseanne's claims.

dg

[JerseygirlCT]

26. I agree

As odious as the LDS's stance on homosexuality is, and for all the pain it brings to so many people - now is not the time to use someone else's family, in their grief, as the example.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

38. Not wrong IMO. The Mormon church needs to quit driving people to suicide.

So do all the fundie churches, including the one I grew up in (Southern Baptist).



Gay people have no refuge when they grow up in a fundie church family.



Like JVS said below, strike while the iron is hot. I feel sorry for the gay child, not the homophobic religion.

I'm glad that his sister found the courage to defy her parent's fucked up religion.

[Lil Missy]

57. Family isn't going through near as much as he endured from them shaming him.

[babylonsister]

59. How do you know that? You sound like Roseanne, and that is NOT

a compliment.

[Lil Missy]

62. I personally know the shame projected on gays and lesbians by religious bigots.

That is pretty painful rejection coming from people who are supposed to love you. Some think I should be put to death because of something I did not ask for and I cannot change about myself. That's how I know.

[babylonsister]

63. Lil Missy, I'm not talking about you, but about the dead man

who is being used here tonight when no one really knows the circumstances.

I'm very sorry you've had to go through that, and I can't even imagine how painful it is. :hug:

[Lil Missy]

65. Thank you. I was indeed assuming she knew what she was talking about.

I don't understand why she would make up that the Osmond boy was gay if he wasn't. IF not, then I stand corrected on that point.

:pals:

[Lil Missy]

64. PS - the bee in your bonnet seems to be because Roseanne was the one who said it.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, ya know?

I'm glad some of the pain kids like him go through lands back in the laps of the people responsible for him thinking he had no other options. It's tragic, and happens more often than you know.

Peace.

[WolverineDG]

67. Who said they shamed him?

Stop projecting your own biases onto this situation. The only info you have that Marie's son was gay is some rant by Roseanne Barr (not exactly what I would call a credible source) and an unnamed "family insider" quoted in the National Enquirer. Contradicting all this is Marie's own public support for her gay daughter. If she accepted her daughter as gay, why wouldn't she accept her son?

dg

[Ms. Toad]

92. Don't know whether he was gay - but you might be interested

in Marie's public comments about her lesbian daughter:

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/05/05/Marie_Osmond_Loves,_Supports_Lesbian_Daughter/

[David Zephyr]

133. It' revealing where people's priorities lie and whose sensibilities they are concerned about.

Thank you for your comments, Ms. Toad.

What matters isn't a Church's feelings. Another kid has taken his life because of a shitty religion made him feel that worthless.

The rush to shut up discussion about this suicide, the false spin that Roseanne attacked Marie when she attacked the LDS church is revealing.

Sweeping it under the rug. Now just who has the brooms?

[tsuki]

95. +1

[blondeatlast]

109. Word. nt

[rhett o rick]

122. It wont be good for his family any time. I hope you are not suggesting this be swept under the

"religious" rug. Way too many gay children commit suicide because the public doesnt want to talk about it.

[Book Lover]

152. I'm sorry - did Ms Barr walk up to Ms Osmond and say this to her face?

Or did Ms Barr write and post what she thought on her personal blog?

I fail to see how Ms Barr is wrong here.

[hlthe2b]

2. I suspect Rossanne is making a big assumption....

which bothers me a great deal... Even if she is right, is this the best way to address the issue--when the family is obviously grieving (and probably facing its own share of recriminations?)

[joeybee12]

3. Probably should have waited a while, Roseanne...let the parents grieve first

I think she's right, the Mormon Church is not a religion, but a cult, and a sick one at that, but she should wait a bit.

[JVS]

5. Strike while the iron is hot.

[David Zephyr]

8. Yep. Name the murderer when it happens.

Period.

[Bicoastal]

11. Nice to know that even on a liberal website, some people don't need silly ol' FACTS...

...to come to conclusions they're 100% sure of.

I thought this was largely a personality trait of conservatives, but clearly I was wrong.

[David Zephyr]

14. What fact are you searching for?

Her son was gay? Is that what you are seriously asking. He was gay.

[Bicoastal]

16. Says who?

[babylonsister]

21. I've also read he suffered from major depression. Who's to say

what caused him to take his life? Certainly NOT Roseanne. The fact that you give her credence says a lot about you.

[CatWoman]

27. can I interject something here?

my nephew, who recently came out of the closet, tried to commit suicide some months ago......

Luckily my brother was home and my other nephew (his baby brother) found him collapsed on the bed after swallowing a bottle of pills.

Things turned out all right (thankfully), but I'm convinced he did it due to my brother and sister-in-law's "reaction" to his sexuality.

[babylonsister]

29. I understand how people can get so dispirited by their

life, circumstances, sexuality no one understands, to cause them to want to do harm. I don't understand why anyone thinks Roseanne has the answer.

And I'm glad your nephew was found. I hope his/your family changed their 'reaction'. :hug:

[CatWoman]

37. they did

:)

:hug:

[David Zephyr]

66. Nearly 1 out of three teenage suicides are gay kids.

That we do know and I understand. No mystery.

Religion has killed and is killing gay kids in America.

[Kolesar]

120. That phenomenon bothers me a lot

As if growing up was not difficult enough, these young people have to deal with their sexuality. And "homo" was an insult when I was growing up.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

131. Hell, religion is killing STRAIGHT kids, too.

Because Christianity teaches that sex is bad, dirty and that you must NOT do it before you are married, or you will go to hell because the only thing that matters if you are female is your virginity. Not your charm, your wit, your intelligence, your skills, or anything else.
Paul was responsible for a lot of the anti-sex stuff. Women are blamed for tempting men. The sorrows of women (pain in childbirth) are blamed on Eve's disobedience in eating the fruit.

When I was in junior high and high school I got called "queer" about ten or twenty times a day.
That was because the kids would bully anybody they could, and the worst insult there was was "queer". This was before the word "gay" was used.

I am straight but I still got the constant harassment with the word "queer" for no reason other than that the little bastards enjoy tormenting other kids.

[Kolesar]

154. God's going to be on your shit 24/7 for that remark

There is one Lord your saviour...or something like that. I wouldn't covet your neighbor's wife or ass now that you have drawn attention to yourself.

[rhett o rick]

123. And they get great tax breaks. nt

[Roon]

158. A lot of homeless kids are gay too

I don't know the exact percentage.

[Radical Activist]

42. She's right.

But I don't think there's any point calling Mormonism a cult. It's no more or less a cult than the Catholic Church and the many other churches who torture people with guilt and control. That's just how some religions are and it doesn't bring clarity to the situation to equate Mormons with some fringe purple nike group.

[SammyWinstonJack]

56. What religion isn't a cult? nt

[Hekate]

75. Mine

:eyes:

[Walk away]

108. Excellent point SammyWinston Jack!

All religions are cults. The story of christianity is just as goofy and manipulative as mormonism and they both hurt and demean any young people that don't fit into their cult rules.

[Christa]

139. All religions are cults

cult

1.
a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6.
a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7.
the members of such a religion or sect.
8.
any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult

[Tailormyst]

159. Mine

[Whisp]

4. omg. I didn't know all that. Thank you Roseanne for your awesome big mouth! I love you! n/t

[Bicoastal]

10. You didn't know all that because Roseanne doesn't know it either.

[David Zephyr]

6. When a child is murdered, the perpetrator is named. In this case, it was the LDS.

It is very hypocritical, and dishonest, to try to contrue Roseanne's comments as an attack on Marie. It wasn't. It is an attack on the evil insitution that caused this child to kill himsefl.

Hatemongering and the fruit of hatemongering needs to be pointed out when it happens TO HELP PREVENT IT IN THE FUTURE.

Those who are piling on Roseanne instead of that fucking evil institution really have your priorities screwed up.

They made this child feel so bad that he took his life.

That is the issue.

Thank you, Roseanne.

[seabeyond]

7. mother in law a decade and half ago found out two sons gay. had to stop going to catholic church

a religion she loved, because of the presentation of homosexuality.

i respect her for that.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Emit]

18. I am considering ending or at least distancing myself from a friendship for a similar reason

I have a neighbor/friend, Mormon, very homophobic. My teenage daughter came out about a year ago, and though I have not discussed my daughter's sexuality specifically with this 'friend' of mine (it's none of her damned beezwax!), I know her views (she is very pro life, very anti-gay, registered Dem, and we have agreed up to this point to not discuss abortion and gays).

My younger kids play with their younger kids, and just recently, one of my kids asked one of their kids why their religion was anti-gay! Oh, boy... My 8 year old got into an argument with their 13 year old about whether being gay is a choice! He and my 10 year old came home so upset by the whole situation - after discussing it at great length, I asked, "... and what did you learn about them and their religion?" They said in unison, "That their religion teaches them to hate gays."

[seabeyond]

40. i hear ya. we live in fundie panhandle of texas. a lot of it in this area.

and my kids and i simply tell the kid, we dont hate gays, we dont talk that shit in our house, wont have it.

and the kid always backs off.

i am not gonna preach to the kid, but all of us wont listen to it or allow it. we arent mean. we arent hateful. but we wont listen to it

[David Zephyr]

58. Thank you.

!

[seabeyond]

60. i hear ya

but it is as it should be.

[David Zephyr]

52. Out of the mouths of babes...

Your story about your two children made my hear swell. You must be very proud of them. They were sticking up for their sister and their family. Your daughter is very fortunate to have you as her parent. Thanks for sharing that story.

And yes, the Mormons should just own up to the fact that "their religion teaches them to hate gays." Everyone, even your kids, knows it. They should just own up to it.

[Emit]

81. Thanks, David. I am so proud of them all!

They both stood up for their sister and her SO (whom they love and are very fond of too, btw). My son, in particular, is a fierce advocate of gay rights at the ripe young age of 8 (my 10 year old is pretty shy, so kudos for her, too, for standing her ground). To take on the 13 year old middle schooler in the manner they did was spot on!

The premise of this Mormon families' argument is that being gay is a 'choice.' My son was able to directly attack that premise and, although I was not there to witness it, from the discussion we all had following this incident and from what we have all discussed prior as a family, it seems he pwned them, lol.

I am proud of all my kids, and I appreciate your support on this topic. I have unconditional love and fierce pride for my eldest daughter for the being that she is and for her acceptance of her beautiful self, and for my other kids, whom are so wise, accepting and understanding beyond their calendar years. Of all my years of parenting, this has been a year of exponential growth, opportunity and discovery for our family.

As for this situation we have with this Mormon family, the relationship is becoming more strained each day. For as much as we have had in common over the years, and where we agreed long ago to part ways on two main topics (abortion and gays), sadly, I doubt I will be able to continue much of a friendship with them based on their continued hatred and ill will toward the GLBT community.

This may have happened whether I had a gay child or not - it was always a source of contention between this family and me. To make matters worse, however, recently, this family was involved in an adoption of a young preadolescent boy who was found to have been molesting other children - and though he was an equal opportunity offender, this Mormon couple are now convinced that he was perverted by having had lesbian foster parents prior to their attempt to adopt him. There is much, much more to this entire story, but the bottom line is that I have had several conversations with them about this young man, about their belief that he was 'gender identity confused' from having been exposed to the lesbian couple, and about their deep, unfounded belief that 'homosexuality is a sexual deviancy' and is a 'by-product of being molested as a child.' I could go on, but, I will not bore you with the details. Let's just say, imho, it's a story from which books and movies can be made.

[David Zephyr]

127. Your daughter is fortunate.

!

[a la izquierda]

141. He sounds like me when I was that age.

I didn't really *know* my mom was gay, but apparently other people thought she was (and she is). I'm not a violent person, but slam my mom and you'll get punched. I used to get called Queer Lover because...I loved my mom. How f'ed up is that??
Good for your son. It's hard being 13 as it is, and having to deal with fundamentalist/judgmental asses is no picnic.

[Emit]

145. Just to be clear my son is the 8 year old and the Mormon neighbor's son is the 13 year old

That being said, my neighbor's teenage son is a good kid, but, sadly, he is being taught to hate. I feel for this young man and his siblings because of what they are being taught ~ it's as if I can see the transition taking place right before my eyes, from innocent, kind, loving children to kids who call names and who think and say very hurtful things, all in the name of their religion.

[a la izquierda]

161. Oops, misread. Guess it must have been lack of coffee...

Regardless of your son's age, he sounds like a very impressive kid. Good on you (and him).
I am typically a tolerant person, even of Republicans (my whole blood and married family consists of conservatives of various sorts)...but indoctrination of children to hate others makes my blood boil.

[Roon]

157. My Mother has walked out of two churches because they bashed gays

and now she is having a hard time finding a church. I don't think she even goes to church anymore. Go figure....

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

9. waiting just continues endangerment of other young people

[KingFlorez]

12. How does Roseanne know any of this?

It definitely looks like she's making a big assumption.

[Fumesucker]

19. Hollywood is very incestuous..

Remember six degrees of separation?

With Rosanne and Marie it could easily just be a single degree or they may well know each other.

[Bicoastal]

22. Or, as usual, Roseanne might be talking the way she usually talks.

On that same blog, she made the following comments towards Right-winger John Voight:

"Your evil spawn Angelina Jolie and her vacuous hubby Brad Pitt make about $40 million a year in violent, psychopathic movies and give away three of it to starving children, trying to look as if they give a crap about humanity as they spit out more dunces that will consume more than their fair share and wreck the earth even more."

She doesn't like John Voight so she calls his grandkids (via his estranged, politically-opposite daughter) "dunces." Does this sound like someone who, because she hates the LDS church, would baselessly accuse Marie Osmond of being responsible for her son's death?

You bet it does.

[Fumesucker]

25. Actually, other than the "dunces" part I pretty much agree with Roseanne on that sentence..

Psychopathic movies, consume more than their fair share, make forty million dollars and give away three..

[Bicoastal]

28. The unabashed NERVE of Angelina Jolie, giving 3 million dollars to charity!

Because all Angelina Jolie makes are violent movies.

Because violent movies CAUSE violence in Third World Countries.

And because I'm SURE you factchecked the veracity of those salaried and charitable figures before nodding in agreement with them. You like Roseanne's sentiments, so you blindly swallow whatever she says as fact.

Need I REALLY point out here the folly of accepting Roseanne Barr's blog as a credible source of information?

[Fumesucker]

49. That's what just about everyone does..

We are all far less likely to question "facts" we agree with than assertions with which we disagree.

Jolie does what she wishes to with her money, she will not miss any meals or lack for a roof over her head from what she donates to charity. I think one of the reasons that so many famous people in Hollywood tend to be liberal is that acting is such a chancy business that often leaves even very good actors holding the short end of the stick career wise while some others become inordinately wealthy more through good fortune than being far more talented than others.

I happen to like Roseanne, for several years I was very sick and Roseanne's show was one of the few bright spots in some remarkably dreary days, I like the fact that she speaks her mind and that she often speaks up for people who mostly lack a voice in our media.

[David Zephyr]

31. Again, you continue to say that Roseanne was accusing Marie. You know better.

Not one word that Roseanne said accused Marie Osmond. She attacked the vile church you are so eager to defend.

And by the way, I hate that church, too. It hates me and spends millions to make my life hell.

The question is why do you defend it with so much passion and try to reframe Roseanne's words?

[Bicoastal]

33. It MUST be because I LOVE the Mormon Church and I HATE Gay people.

That's it--I'm out of here for tonight. Forgot how insane this place gets on weekends...

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bicoastal]

35. DZ, you're just not worth it.

[David Zephyr]

128. Apparently I was worth it, huh?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7859741

[demosincebirth]

51. Believe it.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

79. Barr is a vile sick piece of crap.

she has zero human decency. she is what she accuses others of being. detestable.

[David Zephyr]

89. Your opinion of her does not make one word of what she said untrue.

And what she said is true.

[cali]

100. reallly? and just how do you know that what she said about

Osmond and her son is true? FACT: You don't.

[FreeState]

50. She was LDS and was raised in SLC she knows the church well n/t

[WolverineDG]

68. Might want to check your facts first

Roseanne Barr was raised in SLC, but her family was Jewish.

The oldest of four children, she was born in Salt Lake City, Utah, to a working-class Jewish family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseanne_Barr

dg

[Doremus]

125. You may want to check your facts.

I started to attend the Mormon church (though I was also an Orthodox Jew on my mother's side) at age three years of age, with my mother. I attended Primary, and Mutual every day of my life until I got hit by a car, and had my head impaled on the car's hood ornament, at age sixteen. At one time I sat and discussed the book of mormon, doctrine and covenants and the pearl of great price with Mormon Bishops and Elders almost every week of my life. I am not an ignorant outsider, Mormons, so stop saying that I am. I know what I am talking about in every way.
The Mormon people are ok people, like everybody else, but they are so controlled by the men in their church, you can't believe it. When I stopped "believing" in the church, and stopped attending, everyone in the community stopped even speaking to me. They shun people who think for themselves, like chickens who peck a spotted chick to death. They liked me because i would say that I was born a Jew, but "now have learned that the Mormon church is the real Jewish religion." I was of use to them, and so I was 'loved'.

http://www.roseanneworld.com/blog/

[Raine]

17. Very tacky for Roseanne spout off on this

she might be right but might be wrong too. It just seem very tasteless to go on like this when the guy is barely cold.

[earth mom]

32. Truth isn't tacky. Ostracizing someone for something they were BORN with is what's tacky

and shameful.

I bet that the Osmond family and the Morman church will try and cover up the truth about the real reason behind this suicide.

[WolverineDG]

69. And you know this how?

Personal knowledge or just projecting?

dg

[earth mom]

129. Look what the Mormons did in California to gay rights-you think they want a prominent Mormon

family like the Osmonds help to make their ugly homophobia look any worse than it already does?

[WolverineDG]

130. So Marie's son is gay because the Mormons funded the Prop 8 movement?

:crazy:

dg

[David Zephyr]

134. That's not what she said.

.

[WolverineDG]

136. Excuse me, but you all are taking Roseanne's allegation about Marie's son as FACT

because it's something you WANT to believe. Much like it fit the right-wing's agenda to have people believe Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11.

There is, as yet, no substantiated proof that Marie's son was gay or that the Mormon church had anything to do with his suicide. Just because you want to believe it doesn't make it so. Now if you want to keep talking about the Mormon church & its effect on gay youth in general, that's fine because there's evidence of that.

dg

[DailyGrind51]

23. Barr is an idiot!

BTW, when Barr subbed on Air America, she used the term "Democrat Party".

[FreeState]

46. She was LDS she knows what she's talking about here in regards to the church n/t

[WolverineDG]

70. She's Jewish nt

[Warren Stupidity]

94. raised mormon and jewish

she had a very odd childhood:

"When my face became healed, mother (never having lived anywhere on earth but Salt Lake City) accepted it as a sign from god that the Mormon faith was the one true religion on the face of the earth, and that she and I should join it.

But she was afraid of the wrath of her own mother, and so there was a compromise. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday morning I was a Jew; Sunday afternoon, Tuesday afternoon, and Wednesday afternoon we were Mormons. So, after I learned about my people being murdered in every country but America, I could then learn about my new forbears being persecuted in Illinois, New York and Utah. This made for a complete and well-rounded feeling of paranoia.

At the church's behest, mother travelled all over the holy city of salt proclaiming and testifying to the miracle that the Mormon priest had visited upon her daughter . . . Mother was a great public speaker, and in a way a good PR person for Jews everywhere, as those Mormons could see with their own two eyes that Mother did not possess horns, or humbs, or a hammer and sickle, or the numbers 666 embedded on her forehead. In fact nothing was odd about Mother, other than the dark hair and eyes and skin, which I'm sure was frightening anyway to those fine Mormon folk, to whom Jell-O and cheese whiz are mouth-watering delights. "

http://www.ldsfilm.com/actors/Roseanne.html

[WolverineDG]

98. that still doesn't make her statement about Marie Osmond's son credible nt

[Warren Stupidity]

103. You questioned her knowledge of the LDS.

You were wrong about that.

[WolverineDG]

118. And this makes Marie Osmond's son gay how? nt

[Warren Stupidity]

144. You refuted her knowledge of the LDS with "She's Jewish nt".

You were wrong on that point. Your attempt to shift the argument is duly noted. Try admitting that you are wrong about something every now and then. It is not as painful as you imagine, and in return your credibility as a person worthy of engaging with in discourse will improve.

[Orsino]

115. What we know of LDS and many other churches makes her statement conceivable, at least.

We'll probably never know how much of the son's conflict came from the church, but let's not kid ourselves. LDS preaches hate in this matter.

[WolverineDG]

119. You don't even know he was gay, yet you accept the NE & Roseanne Barr's word for it nt

[Orsino]

140. No, I don't accept it.

As I said, we'll probably never know anything for sure.

Except that some religions preach the sort of hate that could drive some toward suicide.

[blondeatlast]

110. She's Jewish, but keep telling yourself tht--over and over.

You'r estill mistaken.

[Warren Stupidity]

114. raised mormon and jewish

but keep restating ignorance as fact.

[emilyg]

24. I would believe the National Enquirer before

I'd believe her.

[Bluebear]

43. Well, then, JUST for you:

[David Zephyr]

45. LOL.

You are fast.

[emilyg]

71. You're so kind.

[FreeState]

47. Either way she's right about the Church n/t

[earth mom]

30. I'm so glad that Roseanne spoke out-she has guts which is why I like her and her blog too...

she doesn't pull any punches and that's rare for most celebrities.

When I first heard about Marie's son committing suicide, I had a sneaking suspicion that it happened because her son was gay and couldn't handle the homophobic Morman church.

Also, Roseanne is originally from Salt Lake City and though she's not Morman, I think she knows what she is talking about here.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

39. Thank you, earth mom.

As a gay man who thought about suicide as a teen with fundie parents, I appreciate your empathy.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

72. The mormons want to know the names of all your dead relatives.

So they can baptise them.

I had a Jewish friend who lived in Phoenix. She said she and her sisters were harassed without respite over the names of their dead relatives, so they could be baptised as Mormons and go to heaven. I'm sure Roseanne is familiar with that disgusting practice, as a Jewess from Utah.

[oberliner]

83. A Jewess?

That's not a term you hear everyday.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

117. I believe it is acceptable usage. I could be wrong.

"Negress" used to be acceptable.

The trend I do not like is calling actresses actors.

[WinkyDink]

143. Same here. "Actress" is a time-honored term, and not demeaning.

[Book Lover]

153. If a female actor finds the term "actress" demeaning, then it is (nm)

[oberliner]

146. I've read that it has derogatory connotations

Though there appears to be a difference of opinion on that matter.

[Emit]

147. I am unfamiliar the use of the word either way, but I did find this

05.14.08
The Rise and Fall—and Rise—of
“Jewess”

Why are twenty-first-century women reclaiming a derogatory term?

BY DANIEL KRIEGER
In 1980, Rabbi Jacob Rader Marcus, an octogenarian scholar of Jewish history, decided to
title his new book about Jewish women in America “The American Jewess.” His publisher,
Ktav, told him that was out of the question because the term “Jewess” was, well, offensive.
Marcus, more concerned with historical truth than political correctness, didn’t really care. He
compromised on the title, calling his study The American Jewish Woman: 1654–1980, but
refused to remove the term from his text. “Many Jews today deem it a ‘dirty word’ and avoid
it," he writes in the preface. "I believe it is a neutral descriptive noun and I use it constantly.
If for some it has become a term of contempt, it is because Judeophobic Gentiles have made
it so. I refuse to bow to their prejudice.”

~snip~

In spite of anti-Semites claiming it and critics condemning it, the reclamation of “Jewess” is
part of a larger quest by American Jews to clarify and update their identities, which is why
it’s catching on. “I think I’m going to call my girlfriends ‘Jewesses’ from now on,” says
Orenstein, who hadn’t gotten wind of its revival. “I’m going to be spreading it around as
soon as I get off the phone.” Though we probably won’t be seeing university “Jewess
Studies” departments cropping up anytime soon, the word seems to be making itself
comfortable—provided the context and tone are right. Rabbi Jacob Rader Marcus would be
pleased to hear that, after a circuitous journey, “Jewess” has at last circled back to its
rightful meaning, which he felt evoked the Jewish women whose legacies continue to
resonate through Jewish and non-Jewish communities alike. His final word on the subject:
“They have invested the word ‘Jewess’ with respect and dignity.”

http://www.danielkrieger.net/pdf/The%20Rise%20and%20Fall%E2%80%94and%20Rise%E2%80%94of%20%E2%80%9CJewess%E2%80%9D.pdf


Regardless, it appears the poster had no ill intentions in using the term. :shrug:

edited to add link

[Biker13]

36. Roseanne Barr...

is a classless bitch. Poor Marie hasn't even buried her son, yet it's open season. Whatever happened to compassion?

Marie has repeatedly supported her gay children. She's spoken against the Mormon Church's view on homosexuality. I've subscribed to her newsletter for years (yes, I KNOW! But my first crush was Donny Osmond!)so I'm very aware of her views on this matter.

I've deleted the newsletters after I've read them, otherwise I'd post them. I have a gay sister, so this issue is important to me.

And no, I'm not Mormon. Raised Episcopalian. We have gay Bishops! I wish all religions were like that!

[jesus_of_suburbia]

41. "I have a gay sister, so this issue is important to me." Do you have a black friend too?

And we don't call females "b**ches" on this board... just so you will know for the future.

[Biker13]

93. I Did Not Know...

"Bitch" was not allowed, and I apologize. I will never use the term again on the board. I'm new, and still learning my way around.

As for the title of your response, you have proved my point, and it is beneath me to respond, or explain myself.

Biker's Old Lady

[David Zephyr]

48. Marie Osmond has defended GLBT Americans. But Roseanne wasn't attacking Marie.

She is attacking the LDS Church and there's nothing wrong with that.

[UTUSN]

44. K&R #17 for, I'll kick the shit out of this!1 n/t

[Radical Activist]

53. It's not much better for straight Mormons.

It's bizarre how much the Mormon church obsesses on controlling sexual behavior. I'm not sure where that comes from except that many religions go that direction over time.

Any Mormon, straight or gay, is made to feel ashamed of their sexuality unless they're married and only having sex with their spouse. At least straight Mormons have a way out. They can get married and stopped being made to feel evil for having natural sexual urges like a normal human being.

But for gay Mormons there's no escape from the cycle of self-loathing, guilt, shame, depression, fear of damnation, manipulation and alienation that the Mormon church puts people through. It's bad enough for straight Mormons but for gay Mormons there's no way out but leaving the church or leaving the earth. That can be very difficult for someone raised to believe that there's only one true church approved by God.

[BuelahWitch]

61. The Church puts lots of pressure on everyone

Even if Michael was not gay, the fact that he had a drug problem and a lifetime of depression would be enough for him to feel marginalized by the Mormon church. Depression is not a real illness to them. You must always be a good little worker bee with all your church callings (jobs), raising your family AND the job you work at to make a living. And you must do all this while never complaining. Those poor people are exhausted! They don't take into account that people are different. If you don't fit in for whatever reason, you're pretty much fooked.

[patrice]

55. May the Light and Life of Free Hearts and Minds be with Marie & Michael Osmond.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

73. Anyone could be a suicidal Christian.

Since they think EVERYONE, gay or straight, is sinful, filthy and horrible and a worthless POS due to the fact that our parents had sex to conceive us, and therefore we are guilty of something we did not do--original sin. Christianity declares war on EVERYONE'S dignity, worth and self esteem.

Also due to the fairy tale of Adam and Eve. You are supposed to examine every tiny thought to see if it's WRONG, as if gawd is a cosmic cop who knows you coveted something for a couple of seconds, but committed no crime. Thoughtcrimes are not crimes. That kind of ridiculous stuff drives sensitive people crazy.

God is like a crooked prosecutor that charges you with a crime you did not commit. That is injustice.

I have known several people who just cannot stand the constant pounding away at one's dignity and self esteem and worth as a person, and left Christianity, because the suicidal thoughts and the idea that death would be less painful than believing in the judgmental BS that is original sin.

The thing to do is to free yourself from all churches with such abusive doctrines and judgments, but that is difficult to do if they are very religious, like the Osmonds.

[spoony]

77. Lol, yep we're all deeply miserable people!

And thanks for informing me that original sin means that I'm a horrible person because my parents had sex. I've never seen that definition. Thank GOD for internet relgion analysts, who provide such valuable insight unavailable elsewhere.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

121. These are mainstream doctrines. Read on. Unearned guilt and shame just for existing.

Catholics and original sin:

Also the Catholic doctrine on transmission of the original sin was first articulated thanks to Augustine of Hippo in the fifth century, to counter the claim by Pelagius that the influence of Adam on other humans was merely that of bad example (Cf.CCC 406).

Adam and Eve's "human nature depraved of original holiness and justice" is "transmitted by propagation to all mankind" (CCC 404). This wounded nature come to the soul and body of the new person from his/her parents, who experience libido (or concupiscence). This passion is a consequence of the original sin, which remains in the human nature even after baptism, and is not bound to sexual dimension alone, but "it can refer to any intense form of human desire (...)

It unsettles man's moral faculties and, without being itself an offence, inclines man to commit sins" (CCC 2515).<27> Augustine taught that human procreation was the way the transmission was being effected. He did not blame, however, the sexual passion itself, but the spiritual concupiscence present in human nature, soul and body, even after baptismal regeneration.<28> Christian parents transmit their wounded nature to children, because they give them birth, not the "re-birth".<29> The Church also shows that original sin is not imputing the sin of the father to the son; rather, it is simply the inheritance of a wounded nature from the father, which is an unavoidable part of reproduction.

===================
Methodists:
The Methodist Church, founded by John Wesley, upholds Article VII in the Articles of Religion in the Book of Discipline of the Methodist Church:

“ Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk), but it is the corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam, whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and of his own nature inclined to evil, and that continually.<33> ”

Because of this conundrum, Protestants believe that God the Father sent Jesus into the world. The personhood, life, ministry, suffering, and death of Jesus, as God incarnate in human flesh, is meant to be the atonement for original sin as well as actual sins; this atonement is according to some rendered fully effective by the Resurrection of Jesus.

===================

Lutherans:

Martin Luther agreed with John Calvin that humans inherit Adamic guilt and are in a state of sin from the moment of conception. The second article in Lutheranism's Augsburg Confession presents its doctrine of original sin in summary form:

“ It is also taught among us that since the fall of Adam all men who are born according to the course of nature are conceived and born in sin. That is, all men are full of evil lust and inclinations from their mothers’ wombs and are unable by nature to have true fear of God and true faith in God. Moreover, this inborn sickness and hereditary sin is truly sin and condemns to the eternal wrath of God all those who are not born again through Baptism and the Holy Spirit. Rejected in this connection are the Pelagians and others who deny that original sin is sin, for they hold that natural man is made righteous by his own powers, thus disparaging the sufferings and merit of Christ.<34>

Actual gospels:
Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. Mark 16:16

Gospel of Luke:
Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 3 : 9

John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17

Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15

Jesus says, "He that is not with me is against me." 11:23

Those who "blaspheme against the Holy Ghost" will never be forgiven. 12:10

God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47

According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30

=============

[blondeatlast]

112. Thank God you came along, since I wouldn't know how miserable

I was if you hadn't.

Pun most assuredly intended...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

138. Glad you enjoy staring at an instrument of torture on Sunday.

blood, guts, gore.....yuck.

[Zomby Woof]

74. Mormons are some fucked up fuckers

I worked with a Mormon at my last job. Seemed like a decent guy, friendly and all, but a resourceful and inquistive co-worker found his secret Facebook account, where it ends up he is an adult baby/crossdresser fetishist, LOLOL. That means, yes, he puts on baby girl clothes and diapers, and then has a 'mommy' um, take care of him. He is just over 50 by the way.

What really makes it creepy is that he had openly complained about the issues he had with his mother growing up. Looks like he wasn't fucking around.

We never let on that we knew, but he must have wondered why we all kept a more polite distance from him, lol.

The more repression, the weirder it gets.

[BlueIris]

76. While I think Ms. Barr is being insensitive here, I highly recommend the site ExMormon.org.

http://www.exmormon.org/

One of the most eye-opening reading experiences I've ever had.

[cali]

78. fuck you roseanne, you piece of shit.

[slay]

90. i'm sure she loves you too

great insight as usual.. :eyes:

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

104. she is harsh rude and judgmental

but she is probably quite right about this particular incident, and she most likely knows exactly what the situation was.

[Bryn]

102. Before you make any harsh judgement against Roseanne, go to her site

www.roseanneworld.com

She is a very, very strong supporter of Gay people and their rights. She knows what she's talking. She's an admirer of Marie Osmond.

[Puglover]

107. LOL

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7854028#7856071

Do you have even the slightest iota of self awareness? :rofl:

[Divine Discontent]

137. a breath of fresh air!!!

will do you good.

[dsc]

80. There are two options here

either Barr is correct that the young man was gay or she is wrong about that. Assuming she is correct then this is both the right thing to say and the right time to say it. Mormons and other religions have killed gay kids and young adults for years and need to be called out on it. On edit: if she is wrong about him then this is clearly inappropriate and it is possible to be both gay and clinically depressed.

[Neecy]

82. I support every word of what she wrote

How sickening. I know so many mormon kids who were gay and committed suicide, and I just cannot and will not stay quiet in order to not offend bigots anymore.

Funny how so many here who have NO first-hand knowledge of the cruelty inflicted on gay children, teenagers and adults by fundamentalist cults are attacking Roseanne. I, for one, thank her for her honesty.

[WolverineDG]

99. No one is doubting that; they are calling BS on Roseanne's insistence that

Marie's son was gay & that's why he killed himself. Barr doesn't know that & since Marie has openly acknowledged she has a gay daughter AND supports her, the claim that this young man was gay & tortured by the Mormons rings hollow.

dg

[hlthe2b]

84. Consider (just for a moment) that Barr is wrong...

It has been well documented that Marie Osmond has herself previously attempted suicide and has suffered from depression. Would those who wish to accept the immediate assumption that Barr is correct about both the son's being gay and lack of acceptance driving him to depression and ultimately suicide--be likewise willing to accept the consequences this could have on other lives? Even if it is true that he were gay and that the LDS church's despicable attitudes towards homosexuality played a role, does this allow you sufficient reason to assume that Marie, her ex-husband and family were likewise so non-accepting--sufficient to drive him to the tragic course of action? Barr may have not explicitly accused Marie of condemnation towards her son, but she does (erroneously) suggest that neither Marie nor her family had ever spoken out on the issue against the church. While Barr makes the points that need to be made vis-a-vis the LDS Church and gay community, her lack of any supportive, compassionate, or understanding comments towards Marie and family, are telling.


What, if just for a moment, in accepting Barr at face value, you are wrong? How would you feel if Marie, under the stress of both grief, public accusations, and self-recrimination (for whatever reasons) took her own life? She was raised in this church and while most of us can look dispassionately and argue she should have turned her back on LDS (for any number of reasons), does the fact that she did not, justify the wrath she is receiving by many, including Barr in her indirect recriminations? I don't follow her or any of this family closely, but I do recall her speaking out against the LDS church's attitudes towards GLBT--as has her brother.

So, do they really deserve the unsubstantiated wrath of the public-- at this time?

[David Zephyr]

88. Again, no one is accusing Marie or her husband.

Marie Osmond is supportive of GLBT rights. Gay people know that. What's funny is that straight people apparently don't seem to know that.

Roseanne Barr, who knows a lot about the Mormon Church, was attacking that institution.

Where's your compassion for her gay son? He's dead. That's the issue. He felt so friggin' boxed in that he took his life. It happens all the time with gay kids.

Roseanne was attacking the institution that has caused thousands of gay kids to end their lives.

Your sense of priorities is odd.

[mitchtv]

97. Marie gives "qualified support"

nothing that would cross the moromon mullahs. From what I heard her say.

[hlthe2b]

106. Unfair, David... pleaase go and re-read my post. You have mischaracterized

what I said--particularly to suggest I have shown no compassion for her dead son. As disingenuous as you could be, in so doing and I do NOT deserve that. My compassion includes all the hurting parties. It is not one-way in its direction. Hopefully, neither is yours.

David, re-read and reconsider what you wrote back to me. I was angry at first in reading your unfair reply back to me but after taking a second to extend to you benfit of the doubt, I don't think you meant to post such an unfair characterization back to me. I really don't. I hope that is the case.

[David Zephyr]

124. Here's what I was pointing to.

You wrote "does this allow you sufficient reason to assume that Marie, her ex-husband and family were likewise so non-accepting--sufficient to drive him to the tragic course of action?"

That was unfair as neither the author of the OP or anyone in the thread suggested that Maria helped "drive him to the tragic course of action". It sets up a straw man argument that no one was making, and then one has to ask why you did that?

The Mormon Church deserves anything that comes to them with regards to their lying and fearmongering and spending millions of dollars to do harm to my family and my friends and GLBT youths who kill themselves. One out of three teenage suicides are gay kids. Where's the outcry over that? Answer: Nowhere.

So, if Roseanne hurt some Mormon feelings, then tough shit.

I've been to the funerals of gay kids, some where their fucking fundie families refused to even attend. Spend some afternoons at funeral homes where the family doesn't show are only a few do and then maybe, just maybe, you'll understand where I am coming from.

Roseanne Barr's message is one that needs to be heard and if it didn't sound like a Hallmark Greeting Card, then too bad.

[hlthe2b]

126. That's the point... Everyone here is incredibly upset about the son

and the not indistinct possibility that the LDS Church's abhorrent attitudes may have played a role, if not been THE proximate cause. That appears to be expressed in every or nearly every post here, at least implicitly. But, what is missing from Barr's post (and frankly some others on this thread) is any similar compassion for Marie and family. No expressions of concern that they might be tarred with the same brush as the church. No recognition that Marie may be guilt-ridden enough to be considering suicide herself, given her history (and perhaps, just perhaps because she may blame herself for not having done enough to "protect" her son from the church and its impacts).

While I think most, if not nearly all DUers would agree with the GLBT community that the LDS church must bear the blame and the repercussions for the effects of its policies, Michael's tragic and preventable death need not be compounded. That means on the immediate level, by allowing the family some bit of time to grieve and on the longer term level, calling out (as Barr has done) those whose bigotry and hateful policies are putting our youth at risk.

[Cleita]

113. Isn't Roseanne from Utah and grew up there?

She probably has more than a passing knowledge of the Mormon influence there. I know that every time I had to stay in Utah for a time I became very aware that the state operates like a theocracy and the state religion is LDS.

[Politicub]

85. The Mormon church is evil to the core

Good for Roseanne speaking out against the bigotry that causes so much suffering and death for LGBT family members of devout mormons.

[Politicub]

86. The Mormon church is evil to the core

Good for Roseanne speaking out against the bigotry that causes so much suffering and death for LGBT family members of devout mormons.

[fascisthunter]

87. and she's right... this is the result of bigotry in the Mormon Church

what's worse, Rosanne's words or the fact that Mormons hate gays?

[Bluenorthwest]

91. I agree with Roseanne

as I usually do. For what it's worth, I think Marie and others in her family also agree with Roseanne to a large degree, and they would in fact find peace of mind through being true to themselves. I also agree with Roseanne when she says God bless you Marie. Both of those women are kind people who have my basic respect. In Roseanne's case, she has my unending comic awe, for she is really a genius, and while her words might seem shocking or even abrasive to some, I'd think long and hard about anything she had to say to me, I tell you, because she is a wise woman, like her or not.
And she's got more progressive street cred in her little finger than many of the posers o' DU have in their entire family line. If she was a man they'd treat her like she was Carlin or something, because she is Carlin or something, you know. Nobody asked George to be polite. So all this talk of Roseanne being tacky or that it is 'too soon' is what it is.

[Jennicut]

96. Marie was very supportive of her gay daughter. Being in a Mormon family could have led to some of

the young man's problems but Marie Osmond didn't seem to go along strictly with her church.
Also, the Osmonds grew up with a very strict father and some of the brothers admitted their father used to hit them. Most of the brothers said they won't raise their kids as strictly as their father did, though some are majorly screwed up from him (Alan gives me the creeps, he was the oldest and was way strict with his kids).

[NoodleyAppendage]

111. Truth hurts. LDS is a cult. n/t

J

[JCMach1]

132. No more than any other sect...

[NoodleyAppendage]

150. True. They are just weirder. Jesus visiting indians, Kinderhook Plates hoax, etc. n/t

J

[Kolesar]

155. Holy water, cannabalistic rituals, a phobia about menses transformed into dogma

You want weird? How about believing in a select set of ancient lore that just happened to be transcribed in some desert town?

[Divine Discontent]

116. SAY IT ROSEANNE! before another gay kid kills himself because of Mormon Church IDIOCY!

her son is dead, that's horrible, but she needs to come out swinging because that family should go against that 'church' hard for their teachings. Her daughter is a Lesbian, and this boy who was training in fashion is now dead - and I blame the bastards at the Mormon church ---

as always - those who decry them as not being totally responsible for some 'mentally ill' kid killing himself always say, PROVE IT, prove that they caused his death - those people are jerks... repression causes depression....


DAMNIT!

God will punish those who make people so sad that they hate themselves... I guarantee it! May they change quickly.


I wish Marie and her family the best in their grieving, and healing, but I don't want to have to have a story pop up constantly about a local kid killing himself and he was just 'depressed' being said, or he was 'mentally ill'.

[Prism]

135. I'm with her and I'm not

Having spent a lot of time volunteering in youth shelters and growing up gay in a strict Catholic family, I think any awareness of the severe, lasting, and oftentimes deadly damage of conservative religion to LGBT youth is a good thing. The Mormon Church needs a calling out. That such an organization was allowed to get away with the Prop 8 campaign unscathed by the IRS or culture at large remains one of the great current American mysteries to me.

That said.

Over the past ten years in my family, we have endured a streak of suicides by twenty-something males - all of them close, childhood companions of mine. These things often result in speculation, with peripheral relations or friends believing they know the cause and spreading gossip and rumor as fact.

Unfortunately, the speculation and "knowledge" usually turned out to be wildly off-base. What the family and friends whispered and passed amongst themselves at the wakes and funerals was too often not based on fact and veered widely from the truth. By the time a cousin was put in the ground, at least forty people at the funeral could tell you what was in the suicide note - even though almost all of them would be wrong in their so-called knowledge of the situation.

The fact is, we do not know why Marie's son did this. Roseanne does not know. We have pieces of the story, but not the full story. While I commend Roseanne for calling the Mormon church out on this issue, I feel she is speaking out of turn to use Marie's son in this way. I would have given the family time to deal with this child's death. Marie, by all accounts, has been very supportive of her gay children. It will be interesting to see how this will affect her relationship with the Mormon church. It will be interesting to see how she copes and whether or not she chooses to to honor her son's memory through some form of activism.

But Marie deserves that chance, that opportunity, that moment to honor her son before the celebrity peanut gallery chimes in as garishly and clumsily as Roseanne has done here.

I feel she was out of bounds. And, like I said, I'm gay and from a religiously conservative background. I know far too much of suicide, both familial and those I grew acquainted with through my volunteer work. I know what religion does, and I know how suicide shatters every life it touches.

Let Marie speak first about her own child, then let's see where that leaves us.

[WinkyDink]

142. Since when do people have to stifle their remarks? RB ain't family. Did DU observe silence for MJ?

[SmileyRose]

148. Right idea -- BAD timing.

Par for the course with Roseanne Barr.

[AnnieBW]

149. Correct, but incredibly tactless

Roseanne is probably right, that being gay and Mormon led Marie's son to kill himself. But's incredibly tactless to say it in public just after the kid killed himself.

[Odin2005]

151. the LDS is an evil, dangerous, un-American, Christo-Fascist cult.

[Faygo Kid]

156. I don't like the Mormon church. I live by their ridiculous temple in DC. But this was uncalled for.

Marie's son is dead. I find this unnecessarily cruel. I admit to being torn on this one, as it's an opportunity to illuminate beliefs that harm others. But ultimately, I can't go there on this one.

[cherokeeprogressive]

160. She must need a couple of bucks I'm guessing. n/t