the Delphic one predicts -- ten years of Social Unrest ahead

[truedelphi]

Not saying I welcome, not saying I want it.

But there is now a huge disconnect between the Powers that Be, The Criminal Politicians and the vast majority of Americans. This vast majority is hungry, or afraid of becoming so, jobless or extremely fearful of losing their job, homeless or afraid of being so, and the smiling bastards that have aided and abetted the Wall Street, Big Monied Interests will on account of these elements, soon face a terrible awakening.

Yesterdays Brouhaha's in California, Texas and Illinois regarding the protests of students, parents and faculty is just the beginning. In California, twenty thousand people who are out of work and seeking higher education as a means to better themselves have been turned away by State Officials. Classes are cut back, but never fear, Richard Blum, Di Fi's Iraq war profiteer of a husband is still sitting pretty in his office overseeing the mess at UC.

And let's not kid ourselves - had Geithner offered to California the loan Schwarzenegger requested, for twenty billion bucks, none of those folks would be turned away. But Geithner has to be mindful only of his buddies on Wall Street and the seventeen billion or so they need for their so well deserved bonuses.

A huge philosophical point that separates the current Administration and the Current Congress and Senate from the political ideas of Richard Nixon is that Nixon employed panels continually telling him to do right by the People, or worry about riots.

The current clowns in Office think that we don't need the occasional bone. Barack is too young to remember what old fashioned, in the street rioting looked like. But he is about to get a quick catch up course in reality.

I am convinced that this nation is set on a course that will be unlike anything seen up to now.

In ways I am reminded of tales that Howard Zinn has told - when the common people of the 1830's got together and they pulled apart the custom official's home, brick by brick, to oppose the horrendous penalties that the official had utilized against them.


We have had no real change in Health Care Reform, we have had no real meaningful way of putting America back to work, and the citizens are coming home not to roost, but to wage all out hell.

[WCGreen]

1. I too fear that there will be blood....

In fact I am surprised there hasn't been any as of yet...

[MUAD_DIB]

2. If things don't change. If they get worse, and I don't blame *Obama,

then you will see it sooner than later.

*Obama has had 1 year to fix the messes of 8-12 years that got the USA to where it is today.

1 year.

All the shit that has been done to the USA by BushCo may take a decade or more to reverse.

Just remember that.

[truedelphi]

4. except Obama appointed the same Corporate Big Monied People

That Bush was fond of.

Have you not noticed how Bernanke has never gotten any criticism from President Obama?

Have you not connected the dots on who Mr Geithenr is, on who Mr Mike Taylor is, on who Mr Velsick is? And then of course we have that political wonder Rahm Emmanuel, calling Us Progressives retards. And installing his brother Ezekiel in the WH inner sanctum regarding the HCR discussions.


All that is on the financial and domestic sides of things. Then you have Gates and Clinton and other Big Military hot shots left over from the War is Good framework people.

How can a country with ten to sixteen percent unemployment be fighting all these wars? Has no one in the Administration ever read up on what happened to the Czar in Russia when they had wars going on while people were hungry and in the streets?

Or if not willing to read back that far, how about the fact that in the Eighties, The USSR went belly up because of their attempting to fight a war in Afghanistan?

[MUAD_DIB]

20. On war.

Obama didn't start either war, but we know who did.
He is working to end the *wars, but a rapid removal could mean two things: 1) increased subversive Iranian involvement in Iraq and 2)
an emboldened Taliban presence in Afghanistan leading to an unstable or even overthrown nuclear Pakistan. That would amount to an extremely
unreasonable amount of blowback in very short measure: not only for the USA but for the world. Had Obama made a complete withdrawal from both
theaters I am certain that there would be resurgence of instability in that part of the world. Nobody wants to see that. A rapid withdrawal
would be reckless, irresponsible and showcase a level of executive gross misconduct not seen since the run up to and subsequent invasion of Iraq by BushCo.

Do I like it. No, not at all, but I am also a realist. I would like the USA to be OUT of that part of the world as soon as possible, but Obama is fixing the mess left behind by the pretender.


On the Tsar's Russia and historical accuracy.

Historically the USA is not even close to the levels of political unrest or social/cultural disrepair witnessed by Tsarist Russia.
In fact the Germans actually permitted Vladimir Lenin back into mother Russia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin (See Russian Return)
and the rest is history. And look what the Russians got for their trouble a civil war with 20 million dead with an additional
two years of drought and famine to follow.

Not only was Russia at war with Germany but so was France, England, America, Italy and others, and while they probably
also had people hungry in the streets Russia had it far worse. There were no safety nets back then.


On Russian involvement in Afghanistan and their later dissolution.

The west helped bankrupt the Soviet Union.
The sole purpose of the cold war, besides guarding against Soviet aggression, was to
either bring the Soviet Union into a political diplomatic agreement with the rest of the free
world or if that failed to make it economically infeasible for Moscow to compete in terms of
producing hardware.A capitalist society can raise capital through taxes that the communist system
could no. In essence the West is responsible for the collapse of the Soviet Union through bankruptcy.

We can blame BushCo, the GOP and Wallstreet for bankrupting us.


So now we are now in the present... Glee.

Q: Have you not noticed how Bernanke has never gotten any criticism from President Obama?

It would be a bad idea for the President to criticize the Fed Chair publicly.
The markets are already unstable as is the job market. I would guess that any criticisms that Obama give to
Ben would be in private. Besides do you really want the FOX Noise GOP and every right wing economist jumping
all over that ad nauseam? I don't believe that you really would.


Please explain in detail the "Gates-Clinton-Big Military-War is Good framework people" quote.

Given the choice I would believe that none of them want war. They just want to end it without making a bigger mess later on.


I would agree with you on one point and that is that Tim Geithner should go and is not effective in his role at the Treasury.

[readmoreoften]

21. Anyone who uses Wikipedia as their primary source for the Russian Revolution isn't worth talking to.

Lenin was the leader of the Bolshevik party. Not a dictator, a leader. The people revolted after being massacred by the tsar and then the capitalists who backed the former tsarists they revolted against earlier. Over 50% of the working class was sent to their deaths in war by the capitalists and the tsar. The Bolshevik party was a massive, people's movement, not some Stalinist nightmare. The subsequent deaths were due to a civil war stoked by 14 invading imperialist armies, including the US military.

There was a general strike in Seattle in 1919 when workers discovered the US shipping arms to the white army disguised as typewriters. Learn some history before you spout off using Wikipedia of all things to back up your feeble impressions.

[MUAD_DIB]

25. And yet you reply, but not to the general point of my reply.

Curious...

The point that I made was factually correct, and I never wrote that Lenin was a *dictator nor does it appear in the wiki article.
But yeah, he was such a sweetheart. :sarcasm:

So my point was...Historically the USA is not even close to the levels of political unrest or social/cultural disrepair witnessed by Tsarist Russia.


And your point was, besides smugly deflecting from my reply to truedelphi?


*Incidentally Mao was a ..ahem... leader as well. How many did he kill? :)

[truedelphi]

28. Your post this:

Historically the USA is not even close to the levels of political unrest or social/cultural disrepair witnessed by Tsarist Russia.

Wait till Food stamps, AFDC, Social Security, disability and the other entitlements are cut. Then you'll see some major unrest.

[MUAD_DIB]

32. Since that hasn't happened yet my point is still factual.

Did anybody read what I wrote or do you guys like to cherry pick just to start arguments?


On edit: I at least responded to you in depth, and even agreed with you on one of your points.

Did you have anything of substance to reply with?

[truedelphi]

36. Your argument that "Since that hasn't happened yet"

Is a bit of the type of "thinking" that is proof I see about how Americans have been dumbed down.

I don't blame you, I blame the system.

If I threw a Ming vase off the top of the Empire State Building in 1946, every thinking American would understand that that vase was as good as shattered.

But in this day and age, we need "proof" positive that the vase will shatter.

And the ramifications of that "Wait and see" dictate about the NEW LOGIC is that we were told that we had to wait and see if Bernanke and Geithner's 14 trillion dollars of tom foolery would hurt the middle class.

Well, some of us still can think independently of the "new meme" of

wait and see.

I don't wait and see. Should someone pour gasoline on a baby, connect the baby to a fuse, and light the fuse, many of us true thinkers know what is going to happen.

We don't need to wait to see what will happen!

And the baby in this case is the middle incomed.

[MUAD_DIB]

47. Seeing how you have ignored and then *deflected twice now from my

original reply to you tells me that

1) You are not able to carry on a logical conversation without...

2) jumping to a new tangent, which makes even less sense than the one before it, which leads me to believe that...

3) your irresponsible and incoherent hot flashes of emotion would be better suited in in a venue more deserving of childish outbursts.


I'm sure there is a nice tea party near you where you might feel more at home.


While you're at it why don't you try re-reading my post to you, and hopefully you won't have another meltdown.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7854425&mesg_id=7855082


*Your emotional outbursts are a prime example of reasoning gone awry. And yes, you would make a fine example of "dumbed down."
Instead of taking my facts out of context, or just jumping to your own conclusions, how about you try and use a modicum of reason in your nest post. If you aren't able to then you can always go and fly off the handle at a different DUer.

[truedelphi]

50. It is pointless to argue with those

Who believe in the "new logic" (which is actually no logic.)

When normal common sense and perceptive ability allows a person to know of inevitable results, and then to have someone else to come along and say "You are wrong in your conclusions because it hasn't happened yet!" that responder is probably not worth a response.

[MUAD_DIB]

51. You just initiated an Epic Fail upon yourself, sweet heart. Nice going. :D

Cowards run from a argument and use words like "pointless" to justify their actions.


So with that being said either you are

1) afraid/incapable of replying to my rebuttal or

2) your plethora of debating skills amounts to "I'm right and you're wrong" or

3) You had no intention of reasonable debate and instead make accusations that are not real.

My words

MUAD_DIB Response to Reply #28
32. Since that hasn't happened yet my point is still factual.

Edited on Sat Mar-06-10 12:07 PM by MUAD_DIB
Did anybody read what I wrote or do you guys like to cherry pick just to start arguments?


On edit: I at least responded to you in depth, and even agreed with you on one of your points.

Did you have anything of substance to reply with?



Now Here is my post which you have ignored for the 4th time. Try reading it and give us a thoughtful reply, or go just away without embarrassing yourself further.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7854425&mesg_id=7855082



Your so-called common sense, as you put it, seems as if you would rather cheer lead for a collapse of the American system.
I, and a great many other DUers and Americans, would rather look to correct the times we are in instead of participating in you end times fantasy.

[truedelphi]

52. First of all, one of the skills that I lack in spades is the ability to debate.

Warning - full scale new TANGENT mode ahead-

A very good friendship of mine was in the toilet from about June of 2006 to June of 2008. It involved my friendship with a woman who is a Catholic nun (we were grade school friends and have remained close)

She would say things like "If Bush really was bringing this nation around to becoming a fascist state, the media would tell us."

And one and on. I would never engage in debate with her, which angered her. I didn't debate her because if her mind set was so oppositional to mine, what good would it do? My world view says that the Media and the Criminal Class of Politicians AND those politicians Puppet Masters are all one and the same, and she still thinks we have a free press.

I cannot argue with people whose apparent (to me, anyway) lack of logic means more than the point by point discussion of an issue. Nor can I debate with people whose world view is diametrically opposed to mine.

After all, arguing point by point takes a lot of time and effort, and if the person that you are arguing lacks basic logic abilities, OR HOLDS a completely different world view when compared to the view that one holds in their own mind, how does one go about it?

Rachel Maddow actually manages to do this kind of debate, continually. And she stays on point and she doesn't lose her temper, and she doesn't cherry pick.

But guess what, Sweetheart, I am not Rachel Maddow. I mean, I wish I was, but I am not.

I will make this point about Afghanistan - although some versed in foreign policy see our need to be in Afghanistan as apparent, because without our presence there, then the radical Islams in Iran and Pakistan would be allowed unfettered ease at controlling Afghanistan, and that is a point worth considering, to me the larger point is this one:

No nation that is already FINANCIALLY broke, and whose PEOPLE lack the will to continue fighting endless foreign wars can win a war. Especially not a war in Afghanistan. Period. History proves my point, history does not prove yours.

Eisenhower's sensible foreign policy is in agreement with my own - when asked (or actually told) by his advisers that WE HAD TO fight in Vietnam, as otherwise Communists would be taking over Hawaii, he said, "Sorry,boys, the money is not in the budget."

but then, Eisenhower did not want to strengthen the Military Industrial Complex while weakening the American democratic way of life. Obama and his handlers and the Big Monied Interests could care less About democracy, about the average person's way of life, et al.

[MUAD_DIB]

54. Thanks again for your Epic Fail. You do it well.

George W. Bush's quote, "I believe what I believe and what I believe is right", seemingly applies to your *position.

Your words.
I cannot argue with people whose apparent (to me, anyway) lack of logic means more than the point by point
discussion of an issue. Nor can I debate with people whose world view is diametrically opposed to mine.

After all, arguing point by point takes a lot of time and effort...


When you have to jump the shark with the "You're not logical but I am" fallacy and then admit that you don't want to debate then your position is bankrupt.


Again, since you seem to keep on missing what I am saying (on purpose) on Afghanistan.

Obama didn't start either war, but we know who did.
He is working to end the wars, but a rapid removal could mean two things: 1) increased subversive Iranian involvement in Iraq and 2)
an emboldened Taliban presence in Afghanistan leading to an unstable or even overthrown nuclear Pakistan. That would amount to an extremely
unreasonable amount of blowback in very short measure: not only for the USA but for the world. Had Obama made a complete withdrawal from both
theaters I am certain that there would be resurgence of instability in that part of the world. Nobody wants to see that. A rapid withdrawal
would be reckless, irresponsible and showcase a level of executive gross misconduct not seen since the run up to and subsequent invasion of Iraq by BushCo.

Do I like it. No, not at all, but I am also a realist. I would like the USA to be OUT of that part of the world as soon as possible, but Obama is fixing the mess left behind by the pretender.


If you have noticed, Obama does not seem to be interested in prolonging the stay in either Afghanistan or Iraq, but a competent person knows that to leave something a cluster fuck will make it an even bigger cluster fuck later on.

If you have noticed, Obama doesn't seem to be rattling the saber at Iran like John GOP McCain would have if he had been POTUS. Obama doesn't go around singing bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, Iran.

If the USA were to walk away then the blowback from that action would definitely be catastrophic.


And yes, as you have written debating point for point is not your strong suit. I'll leave it at that.

[truedelphi]

55. Well a difference between me and george W is that I have been a published independent journalist

Whose 37 articles took on the Oil Industry, the Election machinery situation, environmental and health related pieces of writing exposing numerous situations as well, long before other writers even tackled the issues that I tackled.

I just cannot debate. If someone's world view is oppositional to mine, and/orlack of logic is definitely too pronounced I do not see the point.

I also am not saying that you definitely are wrong. Being a human being, I could be as wrong as often as the next person.

What I am saying is that your world view, and/or your logic mode, differs from mine to such an extent that debate is pointless.

[MUAD_DIB]

56. Your continued reliance on cogitative inflexibility is why I took the deserved shot.

You may wish to reconsider what you write in the future, articles, debate or otherwise, if you continue with an admission of intellectual incuriosity.

I'm not sure that I understand how one would wish to be an independent journalist and have an inability to debate an issue.


I don't think that I'll waste my time with you any further.

[truedelphi]

57. Sorry to have held you captive for so long.

And rest assured next time there is a story I want to work on, I will take your kind words about my writing to heart.

NOT!

[sendero]

5. He didn't have to fix it..

... he just had to stop making it worse. He failed.

[MUAD_DIB]

8. I disagree.

But perhaps you would like to point out all of the failings or wrongs hat Obama has supposedly done.

[sendero]

30. Why bother...

... I'm not going to change your mind and I don't care. Whatever will be will be.

The proof will be in the pudding. Come Nov, Dems are going to lose big. And come 2012 when there is still no "recovery" of the sort most people are expecting when the word is used (say 6% unemployment or better), there will be more bloodletting.

I would be the first to admit Obama inherited the worst situation imaginable. But he didn't have to choose to bail out the bankers first, and then sit on his hands about regulating them. One can sort of understand the panicy nature of the former, there is simply no excuse for the latter.

And I know there is "talk". But "talk" seems to be all we ever get. There is even backtrack on the Iraq pullout already. If it were a Republican, the outrage would be palpable. Excuse me if I don't like hypocrisy from either party.

[MUAD_DIB]

48. Are all you guys unable of defending your positions?

Have fun sitting on the sidelines come November.


I am really tired of whiners.

[Cetacea]

3. K&R

[HCE SuiGeneris]

6. While I am not eager to see blood and violence, it is long past time

to initiate meaningful change in the way the people are treated by their elected representatives.

[Ozymanithrax]

7. So what is it like, sitting over that vent in the earth, sniffing volcanic

exhalations?

Do they really let you see?

[truedelphi]

10. I an clearly see some awesome people who are here with me

Change is going to have too come from the bottom up because it sure ain't happening from the top down.

Lately some great connections are getting established between me and the meat and bones of real alt energy people.

[anonymous171]

9. Americans go left whenever things get hard

So it's not going to be all bad I guess.

[customerserviceguy]

13. Not always

When inflation hit double digits in the late 1970's, they went for Reagan. When Vietnam spiralled out of control, they went for Nixon.

[truedelphi]

11. Some facts about the disconnect:

From Alternet/economy

2009 was a record-breaking year for Wall Street bonuses, as firms issued $150 billion to their executives. 100% of these bonuses are a direct result of our tax dollars, so if we used this money to create jobs, instead of giving them to a handful of top executives, we could have paid an annual salary of $30,000 to 5 million people.

...snip...

For an example of how this system flows to the Economic Elite, just look at the Wall Street "bailout." The real size of the bailout is estimated to be $14 trillion - and could end up costing trillions more than that. By now you are probably also sick of hearing about the bailout, but stop and think about this for a moment... Do you comprehend how much $14 trillion is? What could be accomplished with this money is almost beyond common comprehension.

Geithner cannot give out twenty billion bucks to save California - but fourteen trillion has come down the pike, mostly with the President's approval, to end up inside the vaults of the Upper One Percent's summer homes.

[L0oniX]

44. If anything deserves a full and massive out in the streets national revolt...

this does.

[customerserviceguy]

12. Sorry to bring the Dustbuster around your fumes

but the social unrest you refer to was caused by the draft, not rising tuition.

I see protests every time the economy gets into a recession, but students either do one of two things: drop out and become tax payers rather than tax recipients, or get daddy to pony up a few more bucks. Then the economy improves, the educational lobby gets the cuts restored, and we go back to normal.

[truedelphi]

14. California has an unemployment situation of between ten and twenty two percent

Depending upon where you live. My County's unemployment level is right now about seventeen percent. So how someone without an education would get a job, beat's me...

Stiglitz, the prize winning economist, was telling Charlie Rose the other night that he had recently visited California, and that he considers California as the vision of the future in AMERICA. Grim times are not about to disappear any time soon.

BTW I actively participated in a good many late sixties, early seventies protests, and I know all too well that they had to do with the Vietnam situation, and all the blood shed there. I don't see where in my OP someone would get the notion that I was saying we protested in those days on account of tuition hikes, but maybe you managed to do that.

[customerserviceguy]

23. The idea that an education leads to a job

should have been thoroughly discredited by now. People are jobless because there are no jobs, not because they're undereducated.

Higher education is the biggest thing we spend tax dollars on, without a plan as to how they're going to provide exactly the skills needed. Everything else goes through some sort of publically vetted plan as to how to provide things that people need, and while we occasionally get a bridge to nowhere, just about every other public works program has people that have been waiting for it for years. That's just not the case with a lot of degrees granted.

As for my possible misunderstanding about what you meant, you mention the school crisis as the second full paragraph right after a topic title about ten years of social unrest. I guess I figured it was one of your chief points.

[truedelphi]

29. Oh I hear you and agree about the jobs/education link thing-ee.

I agree that the jobs are lacking, and therefore no amount of sprucing up the education system will make much difference.

But in the other hand, if people have nothing at all to occupy their time, they will have the ability to rabble rouse.

Whereas if they are sitting in a classroom learning something, that tendency would be cut back.

[customerserviceguy]

37. Let them use TV for babysitting

It's way cheaper.

[HughBeaumont]

31. Tell that to a few trolls on here, who believe it's the worker's fault we don't have jobs.

[jotsy]

15. As the parent of a young teenager, that is hard to hear.

I continue to believe a bloodless coup can be had. The rebellion of us rabble must be rooted in reason and respect for the rule of law. Just because those that govern have cashed out on the concept at the expense of the masses doesn't mean remedy is out of reach. Outside of money, the pursuit of EQUAL justice is a cause difficult to criminalize. I could go on, but I've hogged enough of your thread.

k and r

[truedelphi]

17. The coming decade would be so much easier if somewhere among us was a

Ghandi.

And in a sense, we have had people like him.

JFK, MLK, Bobbie, Wellstone, Malcolm X and others.

But the Powers that Be use violence to see to it that our leaders are soon six feet under.

And of course, those who murder our leaders are never held accountable, and we don't even know exactly whom we should bring to justice for these crimes.

[jotsy]

19. That's one way to peg a true champion of the people, short shelf life.

Physicians for a National Health Plan lost an analyst last summer. 27 year old Nick Skala, a charismatic and outspoken research analyst who died mysteriously while sleeping in his Chicago apartment. I have to wonder how different the health care debate might have gone, had he lived to participate in the dialog.

[gristy]

16. A couple days I would not have thought twice about what you've posted here

On Thursday morning on Democracy Now I heard about the protests that were supposed to happen that day, and I thought not too much would come of it.

But then I read that the action was quite substantial. There is something afoot here, and it may be just the beginning.

[truedelphi]

18. it is just that it is totally STOOPID to have any government not

Smart enough to understand that if young people are not working, and they cannot get into college, they have all the time in the world to rabble rouse.

And in this case, the parents of the kids are upset. The teachers are upset. And unemployed people who are fed up with the months of looking for jobs that don't exist are upset. So these various factions are all joining together in Solidarity.

I remember traveling through parts of Canada in the early seventies, and I remarked on how much unemployment there was. But the young Canadians were all quite content because the Canadian government had enough sense to keep everyone who wanted to attend college in college.

[L0oniX]

42. It doesn't matter if you are a repuke or democrat if you can't get a job and your family...

is about to be put out on the street with no food.

[DCBob]

22. Only ten....

I am relieved.

[Canuckistanian]

24. I said the same thing a few days ago

This CA protest was different from the usual protests. There is real anger out there - and it's starting to manifest itself.

The Teabaggers are a part of it, although they're grossly misinformed. They only know that they're being screwed.

I've often said that HCR would be a showdown and a referendum on the process of political "business as usual".

Add to that the current economical conditions and you've got one hell of a pissed off electorate.

I'm not surprised at it happening. Only at it's delay.

[troubledamerican]

26. Biden, HRC, April 4 coup, Prez Palin, Finis

Obama has "cigarette-related" heart attack. Don't buy it.

President Biden won't run.

Palin runs as 3rd Party "Tea Party" candidate.

2012 Presidential race is 3-way.

Vote is split, leading to replay of Election of 1824: No minimum electoral votes.

Election is thrown into House of Representatives BY CONSTITUTIONAL LAW. (remember, this happened in 1824).

House of Reps chooses Hillary president. Immediate cries of "illegitimacy".

Peace treaty in Israel-Palestine. Two-state solution.

But at home, discord.

April 4, 2015: Two USAF "Al Qaeda Infiltrators/Sympathizers" crash into Capitol Dome & White House. All national-level Democrats assassinated.

Midnight, April 4-5: John Roberts swears-in "President In Exile" Sarah Palin.

April, 2015: "Purges" of military begin. Handpicked Congress by Supreme Court immediately ratifies "New Constitution" in State of Emergency.

"Operation Falcon" roundups begin on all levels (Federal, State, Local) of officials "discovered" to have Al Qaeda sympathies.

National Stadium in Washington, D.C. is a detention center where many of the worst atrocities will occur.

Torture centers ala Argentina 1976, Chile 1973 will be set up in Denver, D.C., Phoenix, Houston & Charleston.

The U.S. Tiananmen Square Massacre on the Washington Mall is July 18, 2015.

Tom DeLay is reinstated as a Senator; Joe Lieberman survives to ameliorate dissent and paint the "emergency changes" as "necessary & patriotic"; Dan Rather steps forward to urge assent to media takeover by government; mass-disappearances of Federal judges & prosecutors not on-board, prominent civil-libertarians & activists, and even local officials.

Don't worry, this won't last long. Russia & China attack the U.S. & Europe on October 6 evening. The nuclear/chemical war lasts for 6 days.

Afterward, 66% of the planet will be dead. Birth defects will be the norm, due to massive strontium background levels in the air & water. There will be "Fimbul Winter" for 3 years. The Collapse of Thermohaline Circulation will render the Northern Hemisphere a mini-ice age. Denver, Colorado will be the remnant survivor of the U.S. due to a combination of factors, but primarily its altitude, in escaping chemical attacks. However, Denver will remain under right-wing military rule, and hunting of dissidents will continue. The epicenter of democracy on the planet will be the survivors in South America and Africa.

There will be no more wars.

[truedelphi]

33. That reads like a mini SF entry.

One important question - Will Lake County California survive?

Or more specifically, me, my spouse and the three cats? (And yes, sometimes it is all about Me, Me, Me!?!)

[Artie Bucco]

38. nah

A combination of riots with IRA-style violence on steroids is what I envision. With some towns being under de facto control while a great deal of the country still functions.

[L0oniX]

43. Can I get that movie on Netflix yet?

[DCBob]

46. Well done... only the dates might be a bit off.

The part I believe you have the most correct is that the hard-core right wing will be a major factor in the destruction of human civilization.

[AllentownJake]

27. Yep

and cops are getting their salaries and pensions cut at the same time...oh and the National Guard has done 4 or more tours in Afghanistan and Iraq in the past 8 years.

Basically, the "enforcers" are about as happy with the leadership of the country overall as the rest of us.

At least in the 60s the leadership wasn't dumb enough to fuck with their enforcement personnel.

[roamer65]

34. I'll take it one step further...the breakup of the United States within 10 years.

Bankruptcy tends to do that to nations.

[truedelphi]

39. Why our leaders think that we are immune to the natural course of events, I cannot figure out.

The Mighty USSR fell apart, in part because of Chernobyl, in part because of the busting of their Treasury due to their actions in Afghanistan.

But we think we can fight the same war in Afghanistan only somehow have a different consequence? Except we are already financially broke going into the war, so since we start out in even worse shape, so just how will we avoid the USSR's fate?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Juche]

40. I don't know what will happen

But there is a lot of rage building up and not going anywhere. Even if the economy recovers, people still know the infrastructure that can and will screw us all over in a heartbeat is still there. The health care system, financial system, political system, etc will all still be plutocratic, corrupt and ineffective at helping those at the bottom. So even if the jobs come bad people are still going to know the country really isn't run in their best interests.

I think there is a growing realization that we are occupied, not represented, by our corporations and political system. I don't know where that realization is leading though.

We need effective ways to change things from the bottom up. But how? Mass strikes, mass protests I guess.

[L0oniX]

41. 700+ billion a year on defense. What don't you understand?

Yea that's right ..I borrowed this from another thread ...so shoot me.

[intheflow]

45. I've been saying since Reagan: I know what side I want to be on when the Revolution comes.

Of course there will be unrest, in a karmic replaying of early 20th century US history, when the NAACP was formed and women got uppity to demand the vote and Mother Jones lead labor revolts against the robber barons. I know who the winners, the ones who stand on moral and ethical high ground, are in each of these history lessons. And how they have parallels today: people of color; GLBTQs, and labor.

[truedelphi]

53. Also, the middle incomed working stiff needs to be included.

I grew up in a household that railed against the Mafia.

Living in Chicago, and having a very honest man for a father, I would hear endless discussion about usury, and about how the mob loaned out money at obscene rates.

You know what? The mob often made loans FAR BELOW those rates of today's major credit cards. And the mob NEVER made out loans above 150%. Currently there are stories in the media about families who are going to Paycheck advance centers and receiving loans that are over 900% annually! But since our elected officials are working for the Banks and the Credit Card industries, we can hardly expect protection from the Big Monied interests.

We consumers are being degraded into a nation of people who cannot even get what they pay for. And there is a huge movement afoot to get us to go into the new exciting world of cashlessness.

After all, bank cards are as good as Cash! Or so the mantra would have you believe.

Except that the second you use the debit card, if your bank doesn't like the amount of money in your account, the bank can then put a $ 70 hold on your account. And then all the future checks you write might have no money to cover them, and so those checks bounce. Meanwhile you have to wait three days untilt he bank releasses the $ 70 but by then the bank has charged you $ 350 for overdrafts.

Cash in your pocket will never do that to you!

[upi402]

49. I know a multi millionair who's turning his house into a compound

and stockpiling guns. He's not been that way in the past at all.