Rioting tends to concentrate the mind of elites.

[Karmadillo]

http://www.ianwelsh.net/step-one-is-always/

Step one is always
2010 March 5

<edit>

California higher education has been cut significantly and students have been hit with tuition hikes around 30%. That’s rather a lot. The students are, of course, correct, that it is ludicrous that California, which is wealthier than most countries, can’t fund higher education properly. But, as I’ve said before, this is what Californians have voted for, again and again. Without a rewrite of the California constitution, including allowing the legislature to overturn referendum results, it isn’t going to get fixed.

Especially since fixing it would require allowing property tax increases and increasing high end income tax rates significantly.

Too many people in California are clinging to their little slice of heaven, no realizing that they are dooming themselves and everyone else.

This is the US, writ large. California is the bellweather of America.

Of course, if enough people get upset enough to protest, beyond just students, and to do so in whether “allowed” or not, then California and America’s elites might get the message that they’re threatened.

When the first set of Greek riots happened last year the EU’s elites let them go on—until they spread beyond Greece. This time, when the Greeks started rioting, they suddenly started talking seriously about helping Greece. Such help will come with some pretty ugly terms, but it’s better than no help.

Rioting tends to concentrate the mind of elites. People forget the huge riots, marches, factories being occupied and all out wars between police, private dicks and unions that were common occurances in the US right through the Great Depression.

more...

[AllentownJake]

1. Let me see what California has done

Raised the cost of education to a populace that is becoming poorer during a time when entering the labor force as an 18 year old isn't very appealing.

Made draconian sudden cuts to social service plans.

Laid of municipal workers, including fire fighters and police officers.

Many of their National Guard battalions have done a few tours in Irag/Afghanistan and are living with the same unemployment issues the general populace is experiencing.

I can't see what could possibly go wrong here.

[JackRiddler]

135. Remember that the bankruptcy began with Enron and the operation to save the perps...

by staging the Recall Coup of 2003. Remember the "rolling blackouts" and Enron-staged "energy crisis" of 2001? That cost many billions and brought a group of rich people together who needed a quick cover-up against then Gov. Gray Davis. They put the recall on the ballot and backed Schwarzennegger as their Action Hero.

California was also a center stage in the inflation of housing prices, overdevelopment, subprime loans and the rest, and also among the victims as an investor in the bogus housing securities. These were fraudulently rated AAA by the same ratings agencies who, instead of being seized, now get to downgrade California debt.

There is of course the issue of the state's wealthy constantly blocking taxation on them.

It's just one scam after the next, and the people are treated like shit as they are blamed exclusively and told they are the ones to sacrifice as the bankers cash in even greater sums than before.

[Occulus]

211. Pinning this near the top, so others can read it...

The troll that repeatedly posted below is gone:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=250652

edit: I'm doing this so nobody will accidentally take its positions seriously.

[calimary]

214. And a lot of it started with our wonderful Proposition 13.

A drastic cut to property taxes and all of a sudden the schools were starved. And a lot of everything else. Made the ground fertile for the rise of ronald reagan on the heels of the "citizen tax revolt" just a couple of years later. :scared: I covered that in the late '70's when I was in local radio. Howard Jarvis was damn near anointed God. It was a very unsettled - and unsettling - time. Even we who were uncomfortable with what was happening had no idea of what was unleashed.

There was another ballot initiative, Proposition 8, that did some of the same stuff only not as drastically. That was overwhelmed by the Pop 13 juggernaut. People were calling for Howard Jarvis to run for president. Almost ghoulish. As usual - an overcorrection of the problem of skyrocketing property taxes. The little old ladies got activated. Lots of elderly on fixed incomes were being priced out of their homes because they couldn't afford their property taxes anymore. So as many in the press eventually came to say, taxpayers "took a meat axe to their property taxes" by voting for Prop 13. Granted yes, the elderly deserved some relief. But this "solution" went WAY too far, and as usual, was sadly short-sighted. And we're still suffering from its after-burn. The schools have never recovered. Soon enough we had a state lottery that was supposed to help the schools, but really didn't.

[JackRiddler]

219. I vaguely remember that time. You're right, another origin of our own situation...

Lotteries. Another humunguous scam. The crap about it going to education, especially. Does any state have a separate fund into which lottery proceeds are paid, which is then devoted to education in addition to the ordinary education budget? New York does not. It just goes into the general budget and they pretend it was spent on education, including when education is cut. They certainly make a big yelp about it in the continuous advertising for the lottery.

[seeinfweggos]

2. i bet a riot of bourgeois college kids can be nipped in the bud rather quickly

nt

[Tunkamerica]

3. that's helpful

[seeinfweggos]

4. tear gas tends to focus the mind of middle class and pampered nt

[slampoet]

12. You really haven't studied a single 20th century revolution in depth have you?

[AllentownJake]

14. obviously not.

Generally speaking, the problems for a ruling class, generally start at the Universities and spread.

[seeinfweggos]

16. actually i have. and i know where you are going

che, fidel, etc all bourgeoisie. and if you are comparing problems in oh say Batista's Cuba to tuition hikes in cali, then i suggest YOU need to hit the books.

[laughingliberal]

13. didn't stop us in my day. nt

[seeinfweggos]

17. apparently it did. nt

[laughingliberal]

21. I believe we were out in the streets until Viet Nam ended.

The Kent State massacre was in 1970 and I don't recall we stopped protesting after that, either.

[seeinfweggos]

26. really, you were protesting in 74? 75? nt

[laughingliberal]

64. At least until 1973, 3 years after 4 of our own were massacred at Kent State

I believe most of the protests petered out when serious troop withdrawal began after the Paris Peace accords.

[seeinfweggos]

72. ah, the story changes - i thought it was until you ended the war. nt

[Political Heretic]

161. It did end the war

It was the level of public outrage against the war, created through protest and resistance, that is universally credited - among historians and living witnesses - with helping bring that war to an end.

[seeinfweggos]

170. no it didn't. the war went on for two years after the protests died down (when the draft ended) nt

[Political Heretic]

202. Just because something doesn't happen immediately doesn't determine cause

the anti-war movement rallied and turned public opinion against the war. This was not the first time we had a draft in American history. Marching "died down" when troop withdraw began - not before. The end of the war doesn't happen with a snap of fingers. It was a process that started years before the last boots were off the ground.

Military commanders at the time, as well as Nixon's own administration have all said - many times - that the level of public protest against the war ultimately doomed the war. Now, many of them don't think that was a good thing. But the still know that the anti-war movement had a key impact.

You make it sound like the anti-war movement had zero impact and accomplished nothing. That's not only false, but also would be pretty humorous if you end up not even being old enough have experienced or participated in the movement yourself.

[harkadog]

189. You are revising history.

Significant protests ended when the draft ended.

[Political Heretic]

203. Why did the draft end?

Because by that time, when were into preparation for withdraw.

I can sort of understanding protests "dying down" when you start seeing that you're getting what you want (both and end to the draft and signs of a war coming to an end.

[harkadog]

208. The draft ended for two reasons

First the military wanted an efficient fighting force. Withe the draft they had people who didn't want to be there and were resistant to training and fighting. They just wanted to do their time and get out. Drug use was extremely high -- no pun intended. When the draft ended the professionalism in the military increased dramatically. Have you ever heard of any drug scandals in Iraq or Afghanistan like you have about Vietnam? No because it is a professional army now and use is almost non-existent.

Second the administration recognized with a draft protests would diminish. They were correct. People who say the protests ended the war are just trying to make others think they had some role in effecting events in history.

[Political Heretic]

216. Do you have any evidence for this?

[harkadog]

217. Personal experience in the military

From both myself and older family members. Plus Pentagon studies about the draft that I have read. Example: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFDA113DF932A05753C1A9629C8B63

"Today's high-technology military also benefits from personnel who are committed to staying in the service for several years, allowing the armed services to reap full benefit from their costly training. During the draft, soldiers were required to stay in the service for only two years. But Pentagon studies show that current recruits need one to three years to reach full competency in combat or support skills."

"Draftees quit early; volunteers stay -- so today's midgrade and senior noncommissioned officers are well experienced,'' said the study, written by Bill Carr, deputy under secretary for military personnel policy."

As far as drug use older family members have told me what it was like in Vietnam. In Afghanistan and Iraq I saw zero use of it.

Vietnam war protests: Last significant protest were in early 1971. The military stopped drafting men and the protests went away. The war intensified after that especially the bombing.

[Political Heretic]

221. anecdotal evidence isn't very convincing. The article linked made none of the conclusions you did

about what ended or dramatically contributed to ending the Vietnam war. Seems to be this boils down to personal opinion and little more.

[Chemical Bill]

69. It isn't like Nixon listened to us. n/t

[PinkoDonkey]

24. making some broad assumptions about which college students

are out in the streets....

[seeinfweggos]

30. if they are rioting, fuck 'em. you are actually in FAVOR of violence over tuition hikes?

[laughingliberal]

71. I would prefer the PTB see the light without violence

but I am not in favor of sucking it up in yet another hit to the future of the working class, either. Obviously, you disagree. Perhaps the status quo is working out for you and your children. We've become a country of go alongs who find nothing worth fighting for.

Or as one DUer remarked "a lot of DUers think activism is manning phone banks while they watch their 401k accounts grow."

[Odin2005]

73. That has never happened and never will happen.

Elites never give up power without a fight.

[AllentownJake]

91. No one gives up power peacefully

Unless it was given with a time line to begin with and an agreement that actions taken while in power will not be prosecuted.

[Political Heretic]

165. They to who you are referring, don't give up any power.

They're not "out of power" just because they are out of the white house.

[Political Heretic]

163. Then fight it is.

[Occulus]

137. You sound like a sympathizer to the crown circa 1773

"You are actually in FAVOR of violence over petty tea taxes?"

[seeinfweggos]

144. you think tea taxes caused the american revolution? really?

[Occulus]

146. Oh please. You know that's not what I meant.

Stop being obtuse.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

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[PinkoDonkey]

193. i haven't the foggiest

as to how you saw that in my comments. truly strange.

[laughingliberal]

5. I think they thought that about us back in my day

They did kill some of us and we were tear gassed quite a bit but, as I recall, we kept showing up.

[seeinfweggos]

7. so we are pro-riot? the op is about rioting, not protesting. nt

[slampoet]

11. Nipped in the bud like in 1950's Cuba? 1848 Europe? 1968 France and Czechoslovakia?

1918–1919: A wave of strikes and student unrest shakes Peru. These events influence two of the dominant figures of Peruvian politics in the 20th century: Víctor Raúl Haya de la Torre and José Carlos Mariátegui.

1968: Student protests and riots in Egypt in the wake of the Six-Day War lead to the ratification of the March 30 Program to deepen democratic processes.

1968: The May 1968 revolt: students' and workers' revolt against the government of Charles de Gaulle in France.

1969: A mass movement of workers, students, and peasants in Pakistan forced the resignation of President Mohammad Ayub Khan.

1973: Worker-student demonstrations in Thailand force dictator Thanom Kittikachorn and two close associates to flee the country, beginning a short period of democratic constitutional rule.

1976: Student demonstrations and election-related violence in Thailand lead police to open fire on a sit-in at Thammasat University, killing hundreds. The military seizes power the next day, ending constitutional rule.

1979: The Iranian Revolution overthrows the Shah, resulting in the formation of Islamic republic of Iran.

1989: The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 were a series of demonstrations led by students, intellectuals and labour activists in the People's Republic of China between 15 April and 4 June 1989.





Either you are being sarcastic or you are currently trying to remove a foot from your mouth.

[seeinfweggos]

and you are comparing those thing to tuition hikes in cali? roflmfaoayfs

[AllentownJake]

23. Education is a gateway to economic security

30% tuition hike prices people out of that when you factor in high unemployment and the current wage deflation.

At the end of the day, people will always riot over an economic situation quicker than any political situation.

[seeinfweggos]

32. doesn't excuse violence. nt

[Name removed]

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[slampoet]

42. Amen. Thank you.

[Name removed]

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[AllentownJake]

51. People were intially pissed off about fucking Tea nt.

[Name removed]

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[AllentownJake]

58. Umm...I think the people in Cali are pissed off about more things than just tuition hikes

Just like the Boston colonist were pissed off about a little more than just the East India Company whose wares they decided to place at the depths of their harbor.

[seeinfweggos]

63. the op is about tuition hikes nt

[AllentownJake]

65. Well I guess I can do a post about the Tea party and pretend it is 1773

and you can say Tea...that is ridiculous.

[laughingliberal]

133. Yes. When one straw breaks a camel's back, the camel was already well loaded. nt

[laughingliberal]

52. I'm gonna go with ATJ on that. Education is one key to economic security

and it is becoming available to a smaller and smaller group. Just another step towards the serfdom of those not of the lucky sperm club.

[seeinfweggos]

57. so you are pro-economic security AND pro-rioting? LOL nt

[laughingliberal]

74. I am anti-serfdom

If progress can be made without violence, all the better. But I haven't seen any progress for the peasant class in over 30 years. And, it's getting worse.

[seeinfweggos]

79. peasant class? middle class californians are peasants? have you ever been exposed to real poverty?

what a perfectly sheltered american attitude,.

[laughingliberal]

134. I have been exposed to real poverty both among disaffected populations with whom I worked

in community nursing and, now, in my own life. You have no evidence that the students who are protesting are all middle class. And many who have been among the middle class are now falling off that scale. The trend here is not towards more upward mobility of the working and middle classes.

[seeinfweggos]

141. anyone who thinks students attending expensive top-tier schools in the world's richest nation

are peasants, has not been exposed to real poverty.

[laughingliberal]

153. First, I don't think it is just the students at 'top tier' universities who are protesting

and, perhaps, they would like to get an education before they are among the poor. Or should they wait til they're truly poor before they do anything?

[Name removed]

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[laughingliberal]

156. I did not call for a threat of violence which would still not be the same as making a threat of

violence. I referenced an activist from the sixties who said the fear of an eruption of violence would be necessary before the elite would make any changes. And, BTW, you do know it is against DU rules to tell people you have alerted on a post, don't you?

[seeinfweggos]

159. yes you did

"I am not sure violence will be necessary to affect change (although it is likely) but I do believe it will take, at least, the threat of violence."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7856545&mesg_id=7857630

[laughingliberal]

162. I was speaking of an activist I once heard discuss this. nt

[seeinfweggos]

164. those words were yours, not stokely c's. nt

[laughingliberal]

169. I said I believed that it would likely take that before changes happen

and I followed it up with the source from whom I first heard it discussed. Generally, history shows us that when the disparity of wealth reaches a certain level revolutions occur. I fear we will reach that level here if we do not manage to change the trajectory soon. Or, perhaps, we will just go quietly into our new status as a nation of underpaid serfs.

[seeinfweggos]

172. premise 1. you believe there needs to be change

premise 2 - you believe "it will take, at least, the threat of violence"

conclusion - you are fine with threats of violence.

[laughingliberal]

194. I did not say I was fine with threats of violence

I did say I am not sure the elite will allow any change unless they fear the outbreak of violence. Question for you: In what time and what place did any real social change occur without it?

We all work withing our local party structures and write and call our legislators and we all hope they are listening and that we can field some candidates who will represent the masses.

I would like to think there would be a return to a fair tax structure and consumer protections and regulations of the financial institutions so we have a time, again, when working and middle class people as well as the poor had the opportunities to move up a little and have some economic security and that their children could be educated without taking on massive debt before their lives have even begun. And I would like to think those in power will do it just because it is the right thing to do. But I am not noticing those who are now controlling most of the money and who have bought our government have much interest in making this a just society for all its members.

[dionysus]

197. nice pwnage.

[Flaneur]

180. Are you a pacifist?

Or is it only violence by the oppressed to which you object? How about those imperial wars we've got going?

[seeinfweggos]

the oppressed? college students in the world's richest nation? please travel and read.

do you realize the poorest american college kid is wealthier than the vast majority of people in the world? and yes, imperial wars = bad. just like rioting = bad. and no i'm not a pacifist. i think the police have every right to use violence to break up a spoiled middle class riot.

[Flaneur]

218. I imagine I have traveled and read far more than you, Mr. Troll.

[seeinfweggos]

184. self-delete

dupe

[laughingliberal]

158. Posting that you've alerted the mods is a violation of DU rules. nt

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

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[AllentownJake]

166. It is a state university system

:rofl:

The entire reason the damn thing was set up was to offer cheap higher education to the citizens of the fucking state.

[laughingliberal]

48. "Desperate people have a tendency to do awful things."

And, sadly, my reading of the history of this nation indicates nothing much changes until some awful things do occur. We have truly become of nation of suck ups and go alongs. I'm embarrassed for us.

[seeinfweggos]

53. hyperbole much? nt

[laughingliberal]

76. Denial much? nt

[fascisthunter]

126. thank you

[anonymous171]

67. Self-defense is always justified. nt

[seeinfweggos]

70. agreed. but of course that has nothing to do with the op. maybe the gun forum. nt

[leeroysphitz]

124. Oh enough. You are being deliberately obtuse.

All of this (not just tuition hikes in "cali") mess that we call the U.S.A. is going to end in violence and social unrest. It is coming. It is when not if. Deal with it.

[seeinfweggos]

152. you sound like you'll be disappointed if there isn't violence. nt

[laughingliberal]

25. People in European nations go out and protest over wage cuts and benefit cuts

and anything, just about, which affects them. Could be why they haven't seen the full on destruction of their working classes.

[seeinfweggos]

31. again, the OP is about rioting, not peaceful protests nt

[laughingliberal]

43. Peaceful protest is great

It generally does lead to some rioting if the concerns over which people demonstrate do not get addressed. I know of no worthy movement for the rights of people in this country that occurred without some real ruckus being raised.

[seeinfweggos]

49. not a big fan of mlk or gandhi, are you? nt

[slampoet]

60. Oh do you mean those STUDENT LEAD MOVEMENTS that MLK was involved with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_Nonviolent_Coordinating_Committee

[seeinfweggos]

66. yeah, those NONVIOLENT, NONRIOTING movements. nt

[slampoet]

75. Nice to see i changed your position.

[seeinfweggos]

78. no i'm still against rioting. nt

[slampoet]

82. You are attacking students more than violence.

[seeinfweggos]

87. rioters. nt

[laughingliberal]

111. Yes, they called us "outside agitators" in my day. But we were still students. nt

[seeinfweggos]

117. then you have a problem with the op, not me. that's who first said riot. nt

[laughingliberal]

136. Riot is a form of protest, I would think. It would be my impression that a rioter might be also be

a protester and a protester might, given the right circumstances, riot. Not all protesters are rioters and not all rioters are protesters but they are not mutually exclusive.

[seeinfweggos]

138. so, what is your point? are you just posting random streams of thought?

the op is about riots. i used the same term as the op. you seemed to have a problem with me using the same term as the op (who you agree with) and now you are doing some sort venn diagram in your head and typing as you think?

good day

[laughingliberal]

142. lol.

Thought I'd try that one. Seems to be a favorite response of yours.

[laughingliberal]

80. I was a fan of MLK and met him when I was 13, 2 days before he was killed in Memphis

After his assassination I began to also follow Stokely Carmichael and, a few years later, became involved with the Weather Underground faction of the SDS. We did become a bit frustrated with watching our leaders who advocated for peaceful protest murdered for their efforts.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[laughingliberal]

81. Is there nothing worth fighting for?

Are we doomed to continue our suckupness until we are a nation of serfs with a few of the elite ruling over us?

[seeinfweggos]

90. it is wrong to riot over tuition hikes therefore nothing is worth fighting for

yeah, that's exactly what i'm saying. jeez.

[laughingliberal]

98. I see restricting access to higher education as part of a more global problem

going on in our country. Just one more nail in the coffin of the working class. Apparently, it's not a problem for you.

[seeinfweggos]

104. uh huh. i'm against rioting so i must be for high tuition. sorry to see you wasted your tuition. nt

[laughingliberal]

106. Lol! I graduated many years ago before Reagan decimated funding for higher education

It's a horror to see students graduating with debts they will, likely, never overcome. I'm thinking the patients I treated over 26 years would not think my tuition was wasted. Too bad there are not as many to care for those patients now.

[Name removed]

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[laughingliberal]

131. I saw nothing logical in your snark about my wasted tuition. nt

[dionysus]

199. YOU'RE AGAINST FREEDOM!!!11!!1!1!1 ELEVENS!

;)

[dionysus]

198. my, you keep digging and digging, don't you? keep going, this is fun.

:rofl:

[JVS]

103. That's not your call to make. Those who do the protesting and rioting get to make that decision.

[seeinfweggos]

105. and the cops get to kick their asses - good. nt

[laughingliberal]

107. I see. You're against violence but for police brutality

All makes sense, now. Something of an authoritarian.

[seeinfweggos]

112. you are the one saying viloent mobs are acceptable manifestations of protest against tuition hikes

of all fucking things.

[laughingliberal]

114. I see you are committed to minimizing the effect of limiting access to higher

education to the children of the more well heeled. Violent mobs do tend to grow out of peaceful protests as the concerns of the peaceful protesters are ignored and minimized.

[seeinfweggos]

116. lol nt

[fascisthunter]

127. you could give a damn about peaceful protesting

I think your prob is just protesting against the elite.

[laughingliberal]

129. Yes, I have had the thought, during this discussion, that I am debating someone who stands for the

status quo.

[fascisthunter]

132. sorry for butting in

but I smell bullshit on this thread due to what's been posted. The gall some have in telling us to behave is infuriating, and will just fuel our anger more. What they don't understand, is we are in more control of our emotions than THEY EVER HAVE BEEN. And we are much wider than they want to give us credit for... it's empowering when you think about it.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[seeinfweggos]

145. yep that's it! riot or status quo! the only choices there are! roflmao nt

[seeinfweggos]

139. lol nt

[seeinfweggos]

143. students at top-tier universities ARE the elite.

it is almost the very definition of elite.

[laughingliberal]

151. Tuition is being raised at all the state universities

not just 'top tier'

[Name removed]

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[seeinfweggos]

185. me too. nt

[seeinfweggos]

83. and btw - student protests were irrelevant to the cuban revolution. nt

that was a rural guerilla movement.

[AllentownJake]

93. Led by a Law student and recently graduated medical student

:rofl:

I forgot Castro and Che were rural rubes..

[seeinfweggos]

94. so that makes it a student protest? because the leaders had once been students? too funny. nt

[AllentownJake]

96. The leadership were all pissed off young educated people

Who do you think is organizing these protest? Freshmen?

:rofl:

[seeinfweggos]

100. also. castro was not a law student during the cuban revolution

i don't think he had time to attend classes. so, as i originally said -the cuban revolution was a rural guerilla movement whose main issue was land reform. it had nothing, zero, zilch to do with student protests. oh sure there were anti-batista protests on campuses, but they didn't accomplish a fucking thing.

[AllentownJake]

110. Let me explain something to you culturally

Every male, since 1977 when Star Wars came out in this country, has been going to movies that tell them there is an evil force that was once good fucking you right now and it is OK to fight back. Pick your film.

Star Wars, Fight Club, the Matrix, Lost, Avatar, Gladiator, Batman to a certain extent etc

These films have made a lot of money and are generally very widely seen. Now I want you to throw in some economic insecurity, to that message which has been reinforced over and over and over again entertainment wise.

What do you think people are thinking and drawing analogies to?

[seeinfweggos]

113. Star Wars? have a nice day. nt

[AllentownJake]

119. People have been programmed to rise up

and it isn't really an ideological thing right or left. If you think what people consume for entertainment doesn't effect their actions, why are we always complaining about Fox News.

[slampoet]

109. Funny. That isn't what the histories written in Spanish say.

Histories written in Spain, Mexico, and CostaRica

[seeinfweggos]

115. thank you - that is the funniest thing i have read all day. nt

[Hannah Bell]

174. not too familiar with the cuban rev, are you? It *started* in the universities.

The Cuban revolution started as a small student uprising against Fulgencio Batista's dictatorship and eventually turned into a nation-wide movement that sought to end an authoritarian regime....

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3821/is_200704/ai_n19431933/



May 20, 1952

Student anti-Batista protests started at the University of Havana in April and grew to a massive demonstration held by the students on May 20 (Independence Day) to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Cuban independence, affirming loyalty to the 1940 Constitution, calling for Batista’s ouster or resignation...

January 15, 1953

Students at the University of Havana extend their anti-Batista protests to the streets. Earlier student protests had been on campus where the police could not lawfully enter, but on moving onto the streets they provoke a confrontation with the police. In the ensuing mêlée, Rubén Batista (a student unrelated to Fulgencio Batista) is mortally wounded and dies a month later...

Nov. 27, 1955

a militant student protest in Santiago de Cuba was brutally repressed by the police, with a toll of 17 young people hurt and more than 30 arrested. This action was the start of a campaign of revolutionary agitation that would unite students, workers, and the people in general. By the time of the new year, a state of open rebellion against the regime existed.

A protest strike was called involving the country's high schools...On December 4 the police brutally assaulted a group of students during a protest on the playing field of the Cerro Stadium, seen on television by baseball fans all across the country. On December 7 an activity in homage to Maceo by the students and people ended with the demonstrators being sprayed with gunfire...

August 29, 1956

FEU President José Antonio Echeverría and another student leader, René Anillo, meet in Mexico with Fidel Castro to form an alliance joining the Directorio Revolucionario (DR, Revolutionary Directorate) and Castro's 26th of July Movement (M-26-7) in a united revolutionary resistance to Batista...

March 13, 1957

a distinct group of revolutionaries – the student anticommunist Revolutionary Directorate (RD; Directorio Revolucionario) – stormed the Presidential Palace, attempting to assassinate Batista and decapitate the regime. The attack was suicidal. The RD's leader, student Jose Antonio Echeverria, died in a shootout with Batista's forces at the Havana radio station he had seized to spread news of Batista's death...

[seeinfweggos]

175. actually i know a lot about it. enough to know that the students were completely ineffectual

hell virtually every example you just gave proves my point.

batista was overthrown by the 26 july movement - an armed agrarian insurgency demanding land reform - not fucking students on a campus (yes their leaders were urban bourgeoisie for the most part, but that doesn't make it a student movement.)

[Hannah Bell]

177. as i think i've just demonstrated, you don't know jack shit.

and you're a waste of time.

[seeinfweggos]

179. you need to read more than wikipedia. books are your friends

well, they should be.

[Hannah Bell]

206. your resort to ad hom speaks volumes about your "expertise".

[JVS]

209. Look who can't post in this thread anymore!

[Odin2005]

47. +1. Everytime some idiot says "bourgeois" Jesus kills a kitten.

Seriously, the word is annoying.

[seeinfweggos]

59. i hate cats

just kidding.

[Jkid]

88. All of them did produced real change except China

1989: The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 were a series of demonstrations led by students, intellectuals and labour activists in the People's Republic of China between 15 April and 4 June 1989.

That incident only brought a backlash by the Chinese "Communist" Party by way of executions, exile, and imprisonment, including the initial massacre. To this day the Chinese Government is actively denying that the Tienanmen Square protests ever existed. (Google "historical denial")

[Flaneur]

154. I'm guessing you weren't around between, say, 1968 and 1973.

[seeinfweggos]

157. is that when y'all levitated the pentagon with your minds? nt

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seeinfweggos]

186. does your mom know you use words like that?

or does she never come down to the basement?

[readmoreoften]

210. And why do you assume they're "bourgeois" college kids in a state university system?

They're largely working class students and working class graduates who went back to grad school because they couldn't find jobs to get them into the middle class--or, more accurately, the eating-and-employed class.

Your broad-brush doesn't make much sense, doesn't reflect the reality on the ground, and minimizes the efforts of working class people organizing around issues of public education.

[JVS]

212. That poster is banned.

Join the celebration in GD

[cliffordu]

6. Odd how the spoiled little shits will riot over their tution but won't lift a finger

over the war........

My generation turned out to be worse than our parents. What of these??

[seeinfweggos]

8. +1 nt

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

15. Whereas I disagree that the draft was our only opposition to the Viet Nam war

I will agree the protests against Bush's wars included a lot of college aged people. It also included a lot of us who were protesting Viet Nam back then. Funny, we came out even without a draft, huh?

[Odin2005]

22. That's because you are romanticizing your generation's youth.

I have read no evidence that genuine pacifist sentiment (as opposed to simply not wanting to be drafted) was more common in the 60s and 70s then now. It is telling that when the draft ended the protests quickly died.

[seeinfweggos]

28. +1 nt

[laughingliberal]

37. Or, perhaps, your stand is about a generational bias.

I was in no danger of being drafted and was out there in the streets over the war. There were also many Viet Nam vets out there who were in no danger of being drafted again. A lot of us who were not black were also out in force working for more equality. And many of us who were not migrant workers participated in the protests and boycotts to improve the conditions of migrant workers. And it is true many of us were involved in protesting Bush's wars when there was no draft. You have no evidence we would not have been out there in force for Viet Nam if there was no draft. I think your bias is showing. Seems just a few more opportunities to bash boomers which is starting to look like a habit. Too bad. I find your stand on most issues to be reasonable and, yet, you are getting snookered into another divide and conquer tactic in the class war.

[AllentownJake]

62. There is a subset of each population that thinks something is wrong

Honestly, I can have an easier discussion with a conservative over what is wrong than I can with a moderate DLC asshole.

The problem is when we get to the solution/causation point.

Generally speaking there seems to be a line of agreement developing these days. Liberals and conservatives are both not happy about subsidizing business interest with borrowed government money.

[cliffordu]

77. I went to the protests after I got back from Vietnam - I was able to go to

college on the GI bill and so I met a lot of the doers and movers in the 'movement' locally..

My statements above about the 'revolutionaries' I met in college are based on experience.

I thought we were in it to change the whole fucking system. Silly me.

[laughingliberal]

84. +1 nt

[Political Heretic]

173. I agree with you, except I don't see that as some sort of a negative.

Yes, the draft was a major part of the reason for active and engaged protests. And that makes a lot of sense. The government ordering you to go fight in a war that is ridiculous and that you don't support, while you watch every rich kid in America take deferments or join the National Guard to skip out on going... I'd be angry too.

Many people want peace. But few people cross the line into the streets until they are more personally touched by the issue in some way. That's nothing to sneer at, its just human nature.

It's why in periods of recession or depression (historically) we've also seen the most progressive movement. People who are normally touched by things like poverty or inequality suddenly find themselves very personally touched -- and lo and behold there's more action.

[Odin2005]

195. I agree with you there. People tend not to fight the system when they are comfortable.

IMO that is why much of the activism died by the mid 80s. The first 2 years of Reagan's first term actually were not that good, it's only when the stagflation ended that the Yuppies appeared and most stopped caring. The Fourth Turning book I mentioned elsewhere in the 2 current generation threads points to 1984 and Reagan's "Morning in America" speech as the end of what they called the "Consciousness Revolution" Awakening period and the beginning of the "Culture Wars" Unraveling period, which we were in until 2008.

[Political Heretic]

204. What period are we in now? I can think of a few names for it.....

The OH SHIT! period.

Or the WE ARE SO "SCREWN" period.

Or the I THOUGHT TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS WAS SUPPOSED TO CREATE JOBS period :D

[Odin2005]

205. I like Kunstler's term: The Long Emergency.

The Glorious Revolution, The War of Independence, and the Civil War, the Great Depression and WW2 were the previous "Crisis" periods in American History. It's that time again.

[Political Heretic]

215. It's better than "The Long Defeat" which is what it feels like most of the time.

(Thanks Galadriel, for the quote.) :)

[PinkoDonkey]

20. Thank you!

I am so sick of boomer self righteousness. Yes, those marches against the war were nice, but they pale in comparison to what their parents did to build the welfare state and, since early 1970s, the boomers haven't been exactly innocent in the rightward lurch of American politics in general (which of course is responsible for the current budgetary nightmare in CA and elsewhere).

This isn't a contest. We're all in it together.

[AllentownJake]

27. I'm really sick of all the Generational Bashing

There were good baby boomers and there were absolute horrid baby boomers.

I have about as much in common morally and ideologically with an investment banker my age working at Goldman Sachs as Joan Baez has in common with George W. Bush.

[PinkoDonkey]

34. As am I, Allentown.

I reread my comments and I think my tone was not what I intended. For this I apologize. I think what I was trying, unsuccessfully, to say is that there isn't much point in trying to blame "kids these days" for not living up to some '60s ideal. I don't know what good that does. Of course, the boomer generation isnt all hippies or bankers nor is the younger one all anarchists or xbox-addled vegetables.

[AllentownJake]

41. Any Boomer that says that shit to me I laugh at

Your generation is the one that convinced my generation that I should pay extra for a product to advertise it.

You feed me a steady diet of TV shows that were nothing but advertisements for plastic toys to nag my parents to buy me and you taught a sanitized version of world history that leaves out pretty much some brutal truths because you don't like discussing such things.

I'm grown up now, I'm not blaming you, and I'm certainly not wallowing in self pity over the poor way you raised a generation of children.

At the end of the day, your parents weren't exactly saints either, and I doubt we are going to be as well.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PinkoDonkey]

50. I think we've miscommunicated here.

I don't have any kids. I was born during the Reagan era. I'm happy to talk about being fed sanitized history and war and a sterile culture...that's been part of my experience.

No generation is, collectively, a saint. Nor all devils.

[slampoet]

56. "If you say you were a hippie, then you weren't part of the 9% of Boomers who fought against the war

You are just a wannabe."

This is a quote from my parents who like to remind people that the term hippie was invented to label poseurs and that the term "Freak" was all that was used at that time.

Listen to Frank Zappa's "We're Only in it for the Money" album if you don't believe that this was commonplace.

[Odin2005]

61. Exactly.

The late 60s witnessed the commoditification of counterculture and rebellion, something the hagiographers don't like to talking about. People participated because it was cool. Most people were, are, and always will be sheep following peer pressure and groupthink, no matter how "counterculture" they claim they are.

[AllentownJake]

85. At the end of the day people like sex

and if dressing a certain way and talking a certain way increases your likelihood to have sex, you will do those things.

[laughingliberal]

101. I'm pretty sure we were taught a sanitized version of world history, also

I had one instructor in college who was a little more real but I don't remember that being common.

[AllentownJake]

121. History will be kind to me because I intend to write it.

Churchill was pretty stupid sometimes particularly when he drew borders of countries, but he nailed it there.

[dionysus]

200. mad at the boomers cause you can't get employed? jake.. jake...

:rofl:

[Odin2005]

36. But the generations do have collective sociological features

I suggest you reas The Fourth Turning by social historians William Strauss and Neil Howe. They claim that each generations follow one of 4 archetypes and that these archetypes repeat in an 80-year long cycle. The position of each generational archetype in a phase of life determines the social mood of the time. The 60s and 70s were an "Awakening" period, with elder "Heros" and young adult "Prophets". The Depression/WW2 period and the current time are "Crisis" periods, with elder prophets and young adult "Heros".

[Odin2005]

29. Boomers don't like people questioning the self-hagiography of their generation.

The vast majority of Boomers had no interest in the Counterculture besides looking "cool". Then that majority sucked up Reagan's anti-social pablum.

[laughingliberal]

92. What we don't like is being the new target in the elites class war

which has been using divide and conquer tactics quite effectively on the masses. I'm not sure how you profess to know so much about what we were interested in. And the majority of us did not suck Reagan's crap up. As I have noted here, before, we were the only group that did NOT vote in majorities for Reagan. The most votes Reagan got out of our generation was 50% of the first wave of baby boomers. Our parents, who benefited from all the programs he destroyed, were all good with him, however.

[laughingliberal]

118. I think it has been shown that our parents 'who built the welfare state'

are also the ones who, overwhelmingly, voted Reagan in.

It isn't a contest. It's a class war and those who are bashing the baby boomers have joined the elite in yet another attempt to blame anyone but those responsible for the current state of the workers in this country.

[AllentownJake]

120. When the people who lost everything in the Great Depression died off in the 1980s

It was very easy to sell people that the free markets work because they had been working for 40 years.

The greatest generation were children when their parents were rescued by FDR.

[laughingliberal]

128. Yes, those who never knew the deprivation of the depression and did not listen well when their

parents talked about it were easily led. I remember my mother telling me about the depression. She was born in 1933 and never knew any other president than FDR until she was 12. She was the youngest of 7 children and had brothers who fought in WWII. Her mother died when she was 10 and she was raised by grandparents who were supporters of FDR. I believe that is why she became a committed liberal. Interestingly, her older siblings, fully part of the 'greatest generation' were all asshole conservatives who voted Republican their entire lives.

My father was a civil rights activist in the 60's who had been born, also, the youngest of 7 children in 1931 and had brothers who fought in WWII. As with my mother's family, all the older siblings were Republicans for life. Our family never understood this as we know my grandparents struggled mightily during the depression years.

I just don't get where this Greatest Generation was so great. Those I knew were conservative Republicans and were pissed off at my parents for voting for Democrats. I think this was the age group from which the Klan and John Birchers arose. I do believe they were the ones pissed off about the abolishment of segregation. Not to paint with a broad brush here, but they didn't show me nuttin I can't live without. At least not the ones with whom I was acquainted.

[AllentownJake]

150. Generally speaking

White Males that were not happy about competition.

[cliffordu]

33. You are exactly right - the spoiled little shits of my generation wouldn't have

protested anything if the draft hadn't grabbed their attention....

And then they all went back home to mom and pop and the 'revolution' died.....And they all became the very things they said they were protesting...."The man"

[laughingliberal]

95. I'm assuming you forgot that sarcasm tag

As I recall a lot of us were still actively working for the rights of women and minorities long after the war had ended. And, as you pointed out above, many of our protestors were vets who were in no danger of being drafted again. I did not become 'the man.' I became a working stiff nurse who worked my ass off harder every year for less and less.

[cliffordu]

102. Then you are one of the few of our generation that walked the talk....

Good.

Most of the people I organized with went back to their lives when the draft ended.

[laughingliberal]

122. I stand convicted of that

And I have never quit fighting with whatever was at my disposal. I have stood up in whatever ways I could to the corporations for whom I worked as my hospitals were taken over by them. I have continued to be involved in Democratic party politics at the local level in every community in which I have lived. I have never quit talking about the injustices of our society. Now, I get to listen to the younger generation, who I have seen squat from these past 3 decades, blame my generation for the state of their country. Seriously, I'm 55 now. There have to have been a few generations who have grown up since us. Where the hell have they been while the class war raged? And, now, they think we were the problem? It's quite irritating.

[AllentownJake]

123. Prosperity breeds complacency

Scarcity breeds action.

Always has, always will be the case.

[cliffordu]

125. Exactly right.

Take away the Iphones and folks will go insane.

[AllentownJake]

19. On the war issue

1) The 60s Generation protesting did absolutely nothing to help the anti-war movement. The only thing more unpopular than the war, were the hippies.

2) What turned the war off, was when Uncle Walter actually did journalism on it. The powers that be learned an important lesson from that. See US news coverage from 2001 to 2010.

[Odin2005]

38. +1

[cliffordu]

40. We hated the hippies.

I still do, kinda.

[laughingliberal]

97. Perhaps there would not have been as much coverage of the war without the protests

And I do recall the Kent State killings had a chilling effect on the nation which woke a lot of people up to the nature of the people we were up against.

[AllentownJake]

99. Generally speaking

Parents recoil when they see their own nation's children shot by fellow citizens in uniform.

[Flaneur]

176. Gratuitious and misguided insults.

Students, of course, have been active in the anti-war movement over the past decade, although not in the numbers of the Vietnam era. Of course, these days, there isn't the threat of a draft to concentrate the mind.

Should they not be protesting the gutting of public education? If so, they'd be pretty much like the rest of us, too busy typing out angry screeds on the intertubes to actually get up and do anything.

[readmoreoften]

213. You have some serious fucking nerve criticizing anyone for failing to protest Obama's policies..

So public school students who need to get training to get a job in this economy are "spoiled little shits"? The only major organizing force against the war in this country has been the Campus Anti-War Network and far left organizations since Obama's election. The entire anti-war network fell apart because OBAMA'S SUPPORTERS abandoned it in order to support the war . As a supporter of Obama and the war, you of all people have some nerve criticizing anyone for failure to protest the war.

And one of the student movement's major slogans was "MONEY FOR SCHOOLS AND NOT FOR WAR." Your post is beyond hypocritical. You can't even muster the courage to protest the war online and yet you criticize students protesting in the street.

[Starry Messenger]

9. We're definitely past the "strongly worded letter" phase

I'm not sure who he's referring to in CA clinging to their little slice of heaven. I'd say a large number of us know we are fucked here. The rich hill folk are the ones "clinging" IMO.

[anonymous171]

18. Hopefully now the people of CA know why thay you cannot pay for shit without taxes. nt

[lunatica]

44. I pay $4,000 in property taxes per year on a two bedroom condo

I keep hearing how good we've got it here in California and how bad it is for California. How much more should I be paying?

[Greyhound]

168. You pay too much because you moved/bought too late.

Prop 13 is about the parasites that have owned huge tracts of land, worth hundreds of billions, paying taxes based on valuations from the 70's.

This is the smoke-screen that keeps the terminally uninterested Californians in their servitude.

[Odin2005]

54. K&R

[rucky]

86. Maybe that's a result sometimes, but riots aren't stratetgic.

They happen spontaneously as a collective viceral reaction to a blatant injustice. Every rioter has their own motivation for rioting - some more noble than others. The reasons are explained after the riot - not before or during.

Don't confuse rioting with planned violent protest. They're not the same thing.

[AllentownJake]

89. I don't know

What happened at the Greek Parliamentary building this week looked pretty planned. Complete with the beating of the labor leader trying to negotiate with the government.

[fascisthunter]

130. the Elites are Scared Shitless, because they Know They are Wrong

accountable and very much to blame for our current situation. If they done all this transparently without lying, then we would have no argument, but they lied, cheated and slanted a system in their favor, and they know we know. They deserve to live in fear...

[AllentownJake]

148. Generally speaking

They are as clueless now as Caligula when he made the mistake of slapping around his Praetorian guard.

[Political Heretic]

167. seeinfweggos, what is it that you want in this thread, exactly?

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seeinfweggos]

188. going for a record today? nt

[Gold Metal Flake]

220. What are you gonna do now?

Now that you are dining on granite?

[seeinfweggos]

187. want?

[Political Heretic]

191. Yes. There are like over a hundred replies from you in this thread. But I'm not understanding

...what your point is, exactly?

What argument are you trying to make?

Summarize for someone who didn't see the hundred posts as they were happening, and came in to the conversation late (hell, I can't be everywhere all the time.)

EDIT - I could have just assumed and waded in, but instead I thought I'd see if you'd just tell me what your argument is in this thread.

[seeinfweggos]

192. committing acts of violence over tuition increases is bad.

got it?

[Political Heretic]

196. Got it. I agree.

Simple, huh?

[seeinfweggos]

201. good

and yes

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

190. Wow, I seems you've struck a nerve. n/t

[Karmadillo]

207. Seems that way. It would be interesting to see what would happen if we were

collectively more willing to express our discontent by taking to the streets rather than by emailing.