Is nationalism ever acceptable?

[Lyric]

Poll question: Is nationalism ever acceptable?

By nationalism, I mean more than just patriotism (which is more about love of your society and culture than of your particular nation-state.) I mean feeling pride in your nation--not just your society.

[tekisui]

1. American exceptionalism is a myth produced from

nationalism and hubris. Nationalism is dangerous. Without nationalism there would be no war.

[SteppingRazor]

3. I don't think that's really true. WIthout nationalism, we'd find some other excuse for war.

We'll have wars as long as there's such a thing as scarce resources. Pie-in-the-sky ideologies like nationalism or any other "ism" you'd care to name are just covers for going to war, because no one likes to say they're going to war for oil, or water, or land or what have you.

[tekisui]

9. I would argue that without nationalism, there would not

be a willingness of young men and to fight and die. I agree there will always be reasons for war, namely limited resources, but without some sense of nationalism we would not be willing.

[SteppingRazor]

12. Like I said, we'd come up with something else -- religion, race, language difference, whatever.

Without anything else, I'm sure we'd have come up with something even more esoteric -- perhaps we'd have to bomb the Middle East because of falafel or something.

[tekisui]

41. In modern America, though,

those reasons would not be enough to lead the US military. The US military doesn't recruit or act on your reasons given. They do appeal to nationalist ideal, though. Serve and protect your country. If needed, kill and die for you country. It is nationalism upon which our modern recruitment and wars depend. I can't see any other reason working.

Even if we bombed for the falafel, it would be because not bombing for the falafel would hurt our exceptional country.

[SteppingRazor]

62. In the context of modern America, I think what you've said is pretty fair.

:thumbsup:

[proteus_lives]

30. War existed before nationalism.

[Go2Peace]

36. Someday we will understand that "Nationalism" is just another form of bigotry. Yes, it causes WARS

[cali]

5. Hardly limited to Americans

[tekisui]

10. Of course that is true.

[Go2Peace]

38. Not completely true, see my post (37) below

[RC]

8. You are forgetting religion.

And when the two get together...

[tekisui]

42. Without nationalism, religious acts are just 'terrorism'.

[Lyric]

19. But it's not just American exceptionalism, is it?

Nationalism exists for every country.

[tekisui]

20. You are right.

I didn't mean to suggest that America was exceptional in its exceptionalism.

[Lyric]

35. Okay, I admit it.

That made me LOL. :)

[Go2Peace]

37. No, not in the same way as here, but you will not know that if you haven't lived elsewhere

For most countries they are "patriotic" to **each other**, as in they feel like a big family or a shared culture.

Nationalism, as we express and encourage it, is to love and protect the STATE.

Our kind of nationalism is indeed becoming more prevelant. Russia's Putin recently decided to ramp up this kind of nationalism and we will have problems with them in the future no doubt.

[cali]

46. you evidently know very little

about the subject. Go read Diary of a Man in Despair. Undoubtedly one of the best things ever written on the subject.

[Go2Peace]

48. of course, I guess my intellect is just inferior.

I should read a book rather than live in other countries. That will really show me a lot about other cultures.

Did you really say that?

[cali]

54. No. I said nothing of the kind

I simply suggested you inform yourself about Nationalism. Living in other countries is certainly valuable. It does not inform you about Nationalism and its history.

[anonymous171]

56. War predates the creation of the nation and the nation-state. You fail. nt

[cali]

2. No.

to quote Friedrich Percival Rech-Malleczewen:

Nationalism: a state of mind in which you do not love your own country as much as you hate somebody else's.

[Truth2Tell]

4. I consider it a mental affliction similar

in moral standing and human destructiveness to racism. It's closely related.

[Go2Peace]

40. exactly, someday we will understand that it is a type of bigotry

[TheMightyFavog]

6. The way I see it.

Nationalistic behavior is acceptable (and kind of fun, actually) in small doses such as international sports competitions (i.e. The World Cup, The Olympics etc) and on major national holidays. As long as you keep that sort of thing confined to those events, then it's all good.


With that said, go USA Soccer! 2010 is our year to shine and tell the rest of the world that we are now a force to be reckoned with on the pitch! I can feel it!

[RC]

11. That guy in your Sig needs a bra.

[enlightenment]

21. Was the picture of the two women wearing the flag as 'clothing'

deliberate - given that the conversation is about nationalism? Interesting comment!

Sorry to hear about Holden's injury during the friendly; I hope he's able to bounce back before June!

[Artie Bucco]

22. one thing to say

Sinko - Sayro

[SteppingRazor]

7. I voted for the "yes, unless you're going over the top like a freeper" option.

A little healthy tribalism is a good thing. It can bring people together who have no other common cause. When we're in the Olympics, for example, I cheer for the USA. That's purely a result of nationalism. But like any other "ism" it can be taken too far -- and perhaps moreso than most isms, nationalism can be taken too far quite quickly under the wrong circumstances.

I guess I'd say nationalism is OK, jingoism is not.

[salguine]

13. Nationalism has an unfailing way of quickly turning malignant.

[EFerrari]

23. Yep. I don't dislike it because all nations are somehow equal

but because it's toxic.

[aquart]

14. Were you alive the day after 9/11?

When suddenly the most important thing was to find a flag and display it? Only there were none left in Manhattan so the Daily News printed one we could put in our windows. As soon as the city opened, my mom drove over the bridge to bring me two yarn bracelets twisted with red white and blue yarn. She was wearing a red white and blue yarn tie in her hair. I still have the bracelets. She still has the yarn tie.

Someone spit on us and our reaction was DAMN RIGHT WE'RE AMERICANS. It was a plain gut reaction and it will always be there.

The danger is treasonous pigs like Bush exploiting natural feeling to start pointless and unnecessary wars. For which he should hang.

[Truth2Tell]

17. The reaction you describe after 9-11

made me sick for my country. The fact that knee-jerk nationalism was the default reaction of most Americans told me right then that we were in big trouble and that a real examination of the causes of the attack was unlikely in my lifetime. As long as that "natural feeling" you describe exists on a wide scale in our society, people like Bush will dominate our politics. This is why Obama couldn't even begin to unwind the American Warfare Machine, even if he really wanted to. The problem is bigger than Bush.

[krabigirl]

32. +1

[Dogtown]

64. Excellent riposte

I agree with you completely.

[Lyric]

18. Yeah, I was. I remember it too.

We got a flag and tried to donate blood, but the lines were too long and they'd probably have turned us away anyway (because my partner's ex once had a false-positive HIV test 20-odd years ago.) We were scared and pissed, just like everyone else. I see it as stupid now, but it felt right then. Weird, huh?

[EFerrari]

26. Some people don't have that reaction.

I understand it but have never felt it. On 9/11, all I felt was sadness for the horrible suffering of that day and the days and years to come.

And when an American or Americans do something decent and unselfish for others, it gives me a lot of pleasure, not through the nationalism channel but the human channel. It's not even a decision or an ideology but more like wiring. Go figure.

[Go2Peace]

50. It shook our country because we were ignorant..

We could not imagine that it could ever happen in America. Underneath it all we were less consumed with the deaths that occured than the psychological trauma that decended upon us. That is why it became more important to find someplace to exact revenge, then to figure out what went wrong.

It did not affect me as strongly because I knew that this kind of tragedy is "the world" and happens all the time, we just were lucky not to have had it happen before.

I believe, to some extent the same thing is happening with the economic crises. It is never supposed to happen here. American society will always be prosperous and on top of the world. That is just the way life has always been right?

[stray cat]

15. No - the only thing acceptable is to complain about how bad your country is

although isn't Buy American a form of nationalism as is being anti-visa's?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer

[LostInAnomie]

24. As long as it doesn't become hostile.

[Ozymanithrax]

25. Yes...except when isn't.

Nationalism is not just pride in a nation. Ghandi was a believer in nationalism as was Hitler. Clearly these two gentlemen did not share a definition of nationalism.

[Odin2005]

27. NO! Nationalism is an evil, damaging, destructive ideology.

Nobody chooses what country they are born it, it's stupid to be proud of it.

[anonymous171]

57. The Nation and the State are not the same thing. nt

[Odin2005]

60. My bad, should have said "ethnic group".

[RedCloud]

28. We are citizens of the 3-D universe, plain and simple. Accept no dilution.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. Sports.

The Olympics, for example.

[WonderGrunion]

31. We are better than many other countries

Maybe not better than all other countries, but that's open to debate. To deny that we have it pretty damned good in America seems more disturbing and delusional than any sense of nationalism.

[krabigirl]

33. No, I think it's foolish and sad to think that one country is "better" than another.

Especially since many people who think this way have never even visited another country....(this applies to non-Americans as well.)

[WonderGrunion]

39. How are we not better than, say, Somalia?

Or Haiti or Ethiopia or any of the other poorest countries on the planet? We have access to a lot of freedoms, riches and opportunities that are simply undreamable to residents of many other countries.

[chrisa]

44. Those countries were ruined by Western imperialism.

Europe is also in a better financial state than the United States by a long-shot (and has better policies).

[WonderGrunion]

45. Ethiopa was ruined by drought and famine

Western imperialism has nothing to do with it. Certain European countries are better off financially than us, but not Europe as a whole. Europe has been moving rightward for years and is being gripped by sweeping racism toward Muslim migrants.

[Go2Peace]

51. Nationalism is not thinking "we have it better", it is thinking

"We will always be better" or "we deserve to have it better"

There is a difference.

[WonderGrunion]

52. No, that would be Jingoism

Which is a crazy leap beyond Nationalism.

[Go2Peace]

55. well, that definition is not what people are discussing here,

[Dogtown]

65. Because we squander our resources on trivia and entertainment

and our leaders do their best to steal the resources of those "lesser" countries you cite, leaving them more hopeless than before.

[Codeine]

34. I am a Soccer Nationalist.

This may not be the greatest country on earth in many ways, but when the Americans are on the pitch I want them to win, every time against every nation.

Ain't gonna happen, but I'll be screaming for them nonetheless.

[Artie Bucco]

43. back at ya

[LWolf]

47. Other: NO, because:

Nationalism isn't about pride. It's about hubris. It's the tendency of humans to form gangs for the purpose of consolidating power and putting others down.

It's about the willingness to violate the rights of others because of that hubris.

It's about prejudice and discrimination, not just against other governments, but of the people who are governed by them.

[bridgit]

49. Beware the push poll

[Echo In Light]

53. No

[anonymous171]

58. Nationalism is fucking awesome right now.

It's the only thing that can unify people against economic globalization and the international financial elites.

[Odin2005]

61. it prevents unions in different countries from linking up.

[Orsino]

59. It's even desirable, possibly...

...when of the make-my-country-the-best-it-can-be flavor. When cheering on Olympic athletes? No harm done.

Manifest Destiny? Insisting that one's own nation is and must be the greatest, and therefore entitled to whatever it wants? Evil. And stupid.

[deaniac21]

63. We are the world

We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
So let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me

[Umbral]

66. Sure, at the Olympics, maybe the World Cup.

Yeah, Team!

[Douglas Carpenter]

67. nation-state nationalism has been the prime instrument whereby democracy has found expression

So far there have not been any other significant models on a mass level to accomplish this. It has also been the prime instrument whereby oppressed peoples have found the redress of their grievances. That is its favorable side.

However, nationalism has also been a significant force in doing exactly the opposite as well. By definition, nationalism excludes and marginalizes those who don't fit whatever criteria of a given nationalist ideology - sometimes it oppresses and persecutes - in its more extreme expressions it may seek to expel or exterminate.

Furthermore national ideologies are almost always, perhaps always built around grotesquely distorted views of history and deeply misguided ideas of self-importance along with a warped sense of moral and cultural superiority.

Nationalism by its very nature, creates and facilitates a level of intellectual and moral dishonesty that now far, far surpasses religion in most of the world. After all, it is no longer acceptable in modern Western society to either die or kill for one's religion or their family's honor - but it remains heroic and and honorable to kill or die for one's nation-state. In fact nationalism is ultimately treated as the final judge on moral questions. Who decides what is enforceably right or wrong is now viewed as the exclusive and final prerogative of the nation-state.

Someone once said something like this; "A nation is a group of people united by common enemies and sharing the same incorrect view of the past."

In the hands of massive and overwhelming military power, nationalism is extremely dangerous.

[Douglas Carpenter]

68. kick