Dennis Kucinich is a patriot

[Ardent15]

I find it amusing that a lot of people are blaming him for our problems, when the Democratic Party leadership has never listened to him anyway.

[tekisui]

1. The party-liners love to blame someone.

Kucinich is an easy target for them, as he is so different: principled, liberal and unweavering.

[vadawg]

2. for me its the alien thing, n/t

[tekisui]

7. If someone in DC stands with people over corporations, I could

not care less about what they have seen in the skies, or what they believe. I know a helluva lot of the schmucks in DC believe in a sky man with a beard who can hear their thoughts and other goofy stuff.

[vadawg]

23. yup for you its the guy in the sky, for me its the alien thing

[TornadoTN]

24. Not a lot of difference between the two as far as I'm concerned

Both are nuts, but at the end of the day, if either one is fighting for the common citizen, I couldn't care any less what goofy religion or pseudo-scientific beliefs that they have in their own lives.

[tekisui]

26. It's not a deal-breaker for me.

I look at where they stand. Are they with the people or with the corporations, it is that simple. The rest is background noise, including who they sleep with.

[sabrina 1]

113. If you're going to smear someone for something they said

you should make sure you are accurate in your 'reporting'.

Kucinich never said he saw any aliens. Sad to see the lie repeated here. He said he saw something in the sky that he could not identify. I have seen things in the sky that were not identifiable, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people have.

Do you know the difference between 'Unidentifiable' and 'Alien'? I know that rightwingers are careless about such distinctions when they call a Democrat like Kucinich 'crazy' but I would expect more from someone on this board.

[theFrankFactor]

176. Sad Isn't It? I've Learned So Much About My Party Since Obama...

There are people we stand shoulder to shoulder with who practice the same blind allegiance that we saw with Bush. Kucinich is now a "grand stander" and "selfish" and "believes in aliens". This is what any one of us has to look forward to if we ran on principals and strength. I guess that's why so many Democrats are worthless, spineless shills. Gotta go along to get along.

Yeah Dennis, stand on principals and push hard for what most of us actually want and you're a kook. Fuckin' sad.

[sabrina 1]

185. It is sad. I'm learning a lot too about this party I supported

and fought for for so long. I'm learning how hypocritical people on 'our side' are. I remember when some of the same people loved Kucinich. It seems it's all about politics and not about what I always thought it was about after all. I remember rightwingers calling me naive for standing up for Democrats, telling me they were everything I accused Republicans of. I'm now thinking maybe they had a point.

[Bryn]

181. Thank You!

#1000000000

K&R

[BlueJac]

155. quit acting like an alien.....

the bill stinks no matter what planet you are on!!!

[hootinholler]

29. What fucking alien thing?

That he admitted he saw a UFO? That disinformation about that encounter was spread far and wide? At least you didn't drag out the moonbeam mccrazypants name calling.

He is one of few who actually match their actions to what they say. Personally that is worth more than anything.

-Hoot

[G_j]

55. yep

he never said he saw an alien.

But who cares, it sounds nutty!

[sabrina 1]

114. Thank you for correcting the misinformation. He never said

he saw 'aliens' but that doesn't stop them. Funny how Democrats, or people who say they are Democrats adapt the lies of the right to go after a real Democrat. I remember rightwingers using the exact same lies about Kucinich when he was going after Bush. At least you'd think Democrats could invent their own lies. It's pretty sickening to see them attack a good Democrat using rightwing lies and smears.

[Myrina]

156. +100

:patriot:

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

34. sure it is

[cliffordu]

45. For me it's the obvious mind control

over astounding 6' tall women.

[madrchsod]

96. 6ft redheads can control me any day...

well my wife is a redhead and 5'10" and she`s been doing it for 37 yrs....
:rofl:

[bertman]

111. That was a good one, madrchsod!!

[Enthusiast]

125. There is that to consider.

[pundaint]

142. With an entire congress and white house controlled by corporations for Bad, I don't

care if it's redheads, Jesus, crack or Powdermilk Biscuits that gives this man the personal integrity to stand up for the People. Let's order a round of redheads for everyone if that's what it takes.

[cliffordu]

147. DONE!!! I''ll take a double!!!!

[theFrankFactor]

179. + infinity

[Swamp Rat]

145. LOL!

:rofl::hi:

[cliffordu]

148. YO!!!

Swamp Rat Is in the thread!!!!

:hi:

[YOY]

107. My pop swore he saw a UFO when flying Radar planes in the Navy.

Never reported it. His crewmates saw it too. Moved rapidly at a highspeed and changed trajectory without slowing down. They asked their CO and he said to just ingnore it as it would just get them laughed at. They knew what they saw though.

Pretty much what Dennis saw from the ground. He never claimed he saw an alien.

So is my dad some kind of nut too?

[valerief]

133. Yeah. He just said he saw an unidentified flying object. I guess if he could identify it, he

wouldn't have said he'd seen a UFO.

UFOs do not mean alien spaceships!!!!

[sabrina 1]

112. What 'alien' thing?

[YOY]

136. Koonch said he saw a UFO once.

Of course to little minds that means he claimed he was abducted and probed by greys and told the secret recipe to the Colonel's chicken.

IT'S PEOPLE!!!

[sabrina 1]

168. Lol, yes, I knew he had said he saw something in the sky

he could not identify, but I never heard of him saying he saw 'aliens' ~ lol! Guess he didn't after all!

[howmad1]

Saw Aliens!

Bullshit. There's not an alien in this entire universe who would be interested in visiting this fucked up planet. Maybe that's why SETI hasn't heard a peep out of ET's. They have little to no interest in communicating with idiots.

[tiny elvis]

158. vadawg thinks that kucinich is an alien

i think that is an accurate interpretation

[sabrina 1]

171. If only it were true! This country is badly in need

of some extraordinary intervention. Sticking to principles and telling the truth is pretty alien to DC so in that sense, you could say Kucinich is an alien in today's political climate.

[Auggie]

3. +1000

[mod mom]

10. Division helps no one.

Ever wonder why the 2 parties spread hate toward the Greens instead of having the Dems and Greens work in coordination?

Do these values sound closer to R or D? (Green's platform)

Grassroots Democracy

Social justice and equal opportunity

ecological wisdom

non-violence

decentralization

community based economics and economic justice

feminism and gender equality

respect for diversity

personal and global responsibility

future focus and sustainability

Now I would like to suggest that the Ds and Gs work together. Instead of creating a wedge between the two parties by hateful rhetoric, perhaps a constructive dialogue would be more appropriate. It would seem to me that the hateful right is creating and perpetuating this division to support their own evil agenda.

[daleanime]

84. +1

but working together to accomplish important projects always makes senseO8)

[The Hope Mobile]

124. Absolutely they should be working together! nt

[RedstDem]

108. Lol

"Unweavering" just made me laugh, I don't know why. Look out, he's taking apart your sweater!!...
sry, couldn't resist.

I think you are spot on about Dennis, love him!!

[AllentownJake]

4. You are an irrelvant idiot

but we really need you, please help us...yeah that is going to work out.

[laughingliberal]

47. Makes as much sense as the message to liberals:

STFU and be sure to vote for us in November.

[WatchWhatISay]

5. I have never voted for him even though he has always made the most sense to me

But I will not support any health care bill until it gets his OK

[kratos12]

6. Then so is Nader

The problem, and it's a big one, that both have is that they think that to effect change you have to go from point A to point Z in one step or allow the other side to take power and make things worse.

If Dennis helps in killing HCR he will be taking this country farther away from the very policies he wants the nation to adopt, by handing the right wing a win and insuring that they return to power, maybe as soon as this fall.

Amazing that any rational adult can see the killing of the Democrat's centerpiece policy issue as a good thing, but maybe like Nader and the teabaggers he must share the POV that before anything good can happen the country must first suffer horribly and then "come to it's senses" and see things exactly like he does.

[Ardent15]

8. Nader did not fuck up the 2000 election

That is a stupid DLC myth.

Gore and Bush did.

[midnight]

21. It was stolen.

[arthritisR_US]

93. yep, Nader just made the theft easier and the supremes made it unconstitutional. n/t

[sabrina 1]

117. The Supreme Court stole the 2000 election.

Nader had nothing to do with it. They didn't do it alone, the theft began when they started scrubbing people from the voting rolls and the myriad other crimes that were committed to make sure Bush won, which was going to happen no matter what. When all the other efforts failed, the USSC stepped in and finished the job.

Stop protecting Republicans and the USSC from being held accountable for the biggest crime in our history by making the ridiculous claim that 'Nader did it'. He had no influence at all on that election. We got no justice for that crime, but at least it needs to go down in history for what it was. You and the handful of people who harbor such hatred for Nader are contributing to denying future generations the right to know the truth about that crime.

[suzie]

120. Nader delivered Florida to the Republicans.

He offered it up to the Supreme Court intervention.

[sabrina 1]

135. No, keep repeating the lie. He did no such thing.

And no matter how many times you repeat it, it will not be true. The facts contradict you. I can't imagine why Democrats want to protect Republicans, as they have done since the theft of the election, from the consequences of their crime.

Repeating talking points with no substance means nothing. 'Nader did it'. How did he do it?

Make a case for your claim, I am more than happy to prove you wrong, with facts.

[suzie]

153. The lie is that Nader did not deliver Florida to the Republicans. We don't

know how much he conspired directly with Republicans to throw the election in Florida and we possibly never will.

Nader campaigned in Florida when he'd been asked not to, when he knew it would be a close race. He deliberately threw the election to Republicans--what's so difficult about that?

It would taken 9 more votes in each county in Florida for Gore to have won, despite everything that happened. I don't think you'll find a Democrat in Florida who doesn't personally know 9 Nader voters in their county that are Democrats. Nader delivered around 12,000 votes that would have gone to Gore to Bush.

Florida is an expensive state to run in, both in time and in dollars spent. By forcing Gore to spend more time and money in liberal states because of Nader's presence, Gore was left with less to spend in swing states like Florida.

Nader threw the election to Bush-Cheney--just like Perot did to Clinton in 1992.

[sabrina 1]

159. I can find you plenty of Democrats in Florida who voted for Bush.

That argument has been debunked so many times I don't know why you bother. Why did so many Democrats vote for Bush? Those votes would have pushed Gore over the top also.

But now I see you are adding more speculation to the 'Nader did it' myth. There is not a shred of evidence that Nader 'conspired with Republicans' to 'throw the election to Bush'. Not one tiny hint.

The Democrats lost the election because Republicans stole it. They prevented legitimate voters, mostly poor and black, from voting. Have you forgotten Harris who was rewarded with a seat in Congress for her crime?

A crime of massive proportions, treason actually, was committed in that election. And the Democrats did nothing about it. In fact, they were silent or like you, they tried to shift the blame away from the criminals.


None Dare Call It Treason

In the December 12 ruling by the US Supreme Court handing the election to George Bush, the Court committed the unpardonable sin of being a knowing surrogate for the Republican Party instead of being an impartial arbiter of the law.

That is who is responsible for the stolen election of 2000.

As Vincent Bugliosi says and I agree:

These five Justices, by their conduct, have forfeited the right to be respected, and only by treating them the way they deserve to be treated can we demonstrate our respect for the rule of law they defiled, and insure that their successors will not engage in similarly criminal conduct.

Why, one may ask, have I written this article? I'll tell you why. I'd like to think, like most people, that I have a sense of justice. In my mind's eye, these five Justices have gotten away with murder, and I want to do whatever I can to make sure that they pay dearly for their crime. Though they can't be prosecuted, I want them to know that there's at least one American out there (and hopefully many more because of this article) who knows (not thinks, but knows) precisely who they are. I want these five Justices to know that because of this article, which I intend to send to each one of them by registered mail, there's the exponential possibility that when many Americans look at them in the future, they'll be saying, "Why are these people in robes seated above me? They all belong behind bars." I want these five Justices to know that this is America, not a banana republic, and in the United States of America, you simply cannot get away with things like this.

Gore WON! He won the popular vote and he would have won Florida had the vote counting not been stopped. Nader had nothing to do with it.

Bugliosi's book should be required reading for every American student of history so that they are not led to believe the myth that anyone other than rightwing ideologues Scalia, Thomas, Sandra Day O'Connor, Rehnquist and Kennedy were responsible for the theft of the 2000 election. They should go down in history in infamy.

Bush was never elected to the WH. Both elections were stolen. And no one should be allowed to forget that or to shift the blame to someone else.

[suzie]

196. Without Nader, there is no Supreme Court involvement.

Nader threw the election to Bush and he did it with full knowledge of what he was doing. If you watched Ralph Nader during the 2000 elections, he had gotten caught up in the wonder of being a media celebrity and just couldn't give that up, whether it was the right thing for the country or not.

You say you know Florida Democrats who voted for Bush? Who told them over and over that there was no difference between Bush and Gore? NADER.

Who campaigned specifically in Florida, a perennial swing state, to say that to Florida Democrats? NADER.

Yes, Gore did win Florida. As one who lives in Florida, I'm rather aware of that.

However, Ralph Nader siphoned off probably 12,000-15,000 votes that would have gone to Gore. The authorities in Florida did all they could to swing the election, but there's only so much you can do without it being obvious that you're stealing votes.

Ralph Nader took care of the rest--campaigning, belittling Gore, and taking Gore votes.

Nader swung the 2000 election to Bush, before it ever even reached the Florida Supreme Court.

[arthritisR_US]

151. I don't hate Nader I just happen to think he was instrumental in the theft. n/t

[sabrina 1]

163. You are free to think that , but your wrong. The SC dealt the final

blow to a long, pre-meditated effort by Republicans using various nefarious means, such as scrubbing minority voters from the roles at the request of the Bush campaign to hand the election to Bush. When, despite all their efforts, Gore still won, and he did, the SC stepped in to finish the job. Seem my post above.

[arthritisR_US]

166. I don't dispute that and agree with what you've stated but feel that

if Nader had not been in the race, splitting the votes, it would not have been such a close call.

[sabrina 1]

167. Well, I don't want to rehash the argument all over again

but I think it has been pretty much proven that regardless of the votes he got, Gore won anyhow and would have won had the vote counting not be stopped. We will never know by how much. And if so many Democratic voters had not been prevented from voting, that would have a made a difference also. These were all illegal acts aimed at stealing an election. Nader did nothing illegal so I never understood the attempt to blame him when it is clear that with or without him in the race, the election would have been close because of the corruption, and the SC would have handed it to Bush. The anger seems very misplaced to me.

The 2004 election was stolen also. Nader was not a factor in that theft either.

[arthritisR_US]

173. you present a cogent argument and make me rethink my stand. My logic

has failed to consider that indeed, Nader had every right to run and did nothing illegal. My blame for the theft has been misplaced, TY. :toast:

[sabrina 1]

180. That is a very honest and admirable thing for you to say.

It is very rare for someone to be so open-minded so thank you.

To be honest I was so frightened of Bush winning in 2004 that I was angry at Nader for running even though I knew he had a right to do so. But I was afraid that once again, the Republicans would try to steal the election. Still, angry as I was at him, I could never blame him for what happened in 2000.

Again, thank you ~ :-)

[arthritisR_US]

197. it's just nice to have a discussion without being belittled by the other party for being

thick headed. I do appreciate reasoned debate with a measure of patience which you have in spades, TY mate :-)

edited for a typo.

[Overseas]

187. Well said! //nt

[Myrina]

157. +100

:hi:

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Problem with this is, this bill is what is taking HCR farther away from

what he wants this nation to adoopt. This bill places HC even more firmly in the hands of for-profit insurance, even to the point of so-called subsidies for the poor, which is taxes going directly to the insurance companies, collect $200 as you pass go - THEY set the fees, and if the person can't pony up, the government does. Where is the downward pressure on costs there?

The corporate wing of the democratic party may consider this the centerpiece, but it was written by the industry, not by the politicians. Isn't that what we so recently screamed about the Republicans doing?

You want to see something horrible happen? Pass this bill.

[midnight]

16. I think Dennis wants single payer. But that was never on the table. Also this

IRS audit to see if your insurance purchase is large enough seems over the top against privacy, and the mandate are sure signs that something is not right for the consumer...

[truedelphi]

75. You know a bill means trouble when the Yahoo headlines are screaming about the

Rightness and greatness of a bill...

[laughingliberal]

50. Really? Cause I don't remember Kucinich launching a 3rd party campaign to defeat a Democrat in a

general election.

I do, however, remember Joe Lieberman doing that. And I remember the White House sending their special negotiator out on a Sunday night to order the leader of the Senate to give him anything he wanted.

We can't move fast enough to give an asshat something to screw the American people with. But we will vilify and Democrat who tries to stand up to make the bill better for people.

[pundaint]

146. True, but if it's against Obama next time, and he wants to run, I'll campaign for him.

[daleanime]

85. Are we even talking about health care any more?

Seems to me that insurance is now the topic of discussion:shrug:

[sabrina 1]

116. So that's how you see the health care bill?

'A Centerpiece of the Democrat's policies'? And if it fails, because it is really so bad for the people, it will not be their fault? It will be Kucinich's?

If you want to defend the bill, then explain why it should pass. Don't waste time attacking people who have already made their case and very clearly explained why they cannot vote for it.

Dennis could not be more right.

I keep asking this, but never get an answer. What happened to 'Yes, We Can'? The only one saying that now is Kucinich. All I hear from Obama's side is 'No, We Can't'? Your post is a perfect example. A million excuses for why 'we can't'.

[earth mom]

11. They hate Dennis because he speaks the truth they refuse to see. nt

[MrSlayer]

14. They see it, they know it, they've made it happen.

They hate him for bringing it up instead of playing the game.

[Enthusiast]

126. Well said, MrSlayer. nt

[Maat]

43. +1

Thanks for putting it so well.

[MrSlayer]

12. Would that the party acted like actual Democrats as Dennis does.

Imagine a party actually working for the benefit of the People instead of weaseling around supporting the oligarchy while pretending not to. Dennis is one of the few good ones.

[Enthusiast]

127. Again, +1

[tritsofme]

13. Only in the sense that John Boehner and Eric Cantor are patriots

And only if killing President Obama's agenda is patriotic.

If he casts his lot with the Republicans and the insurance companies execs AGAIN, hopefully we can find a REAL Democrat to replace him in the primary.

[azmouse]

17. +1

:thumbsup:

[Ardent15]

20. Kiling Obama's agenda is patriotic in my eyes

Because Obama's corporate giveaway agenda is not patriotic.

[truedelphi]

76. Totally agree.

[salguine]

94. + infinity

[tallahasseedem]

25. +1

For a very reasonable statement.

[TornadoTN]

27. You mean a real bought and paid for "real" Democrat to primary Dennis, right?

I haven't been a big fan of Dennis, but he's about the only one in Washington that has his head on straight and working for the common citizen, not corporate America first.

This bill is nothing more than a stimulus package for the insurance companies. I'll fight anything that gives them more money without real reform attached. This bill isn't it.

[laughingliberal]

51. Yes, one of those honest to goodness Blue Dog Democrats like the one who is opposing the President's

entire agenda and bragging about it in her ads in Arkansas and...wait for it....is being endorsed by the White House. Wheeee doggies! That thar's the kinda Democrats we want!

[tekisui]

28. President Obama's agenda?

That is your measure of patriotism?

I care more about the liberal agenda, the people's agenda. And you could say the same about Obama:

If he casts his lot with the Republicans and the insurance companies execs AGAIN, hopefully we can find a REAL Democrat to replace him in the primary.

[tritsofme]

31. There is a reason that Republicans will unanimously oppose this legislation.

Dennis sure keeps good company.

If this bill doesn't pass and the status quo is maintained, the cost will be measured in lives.

[tekisui]

32. Repubs obstruction is not an excuse for weak policies.

[laughingliberal]

52. Yes, they've been clear about that. They believe if they defeat health care reform it will hurt the

Obama presidency. They don't oppose it cause it's a good bill.

[YOY]

110. Yes there is. Because they are contrary to all efforts by Obama.

You cannot say the same of Dennis. So please...spare us.

They'd be opposed to anything and everything he would do regardless of it's actual effects. It's what their tactic is. They admit it.

[sabrina 1]

175. They don't oppose the legislation.

They are playing their role by pretending they do. The bill includes everything they supported. It is a larger version of Romneycare and they love it when the poor are forced to pay and get punished when they cannot afford to. As Obama and the Dems admitted, this bill has 'many of the policies Republicans support' in it.

But there is nothing, not a single thing in this bill that the people who elected this president wanted, not even the compromises proposed by several good Democrats, like Dorgan and Kucinich. All were eliminated by this WH while Republican policies were 'considered and included' as Obama admits.

They even got their anti-woman clause included. The fact that they are acting like they oppose it is just game playing as they want to win in 2010 and they will single out parts of the bill to attack. But IF they win, this bill will not be rescinded except for any part of it that gives even a tiny crumb to the people. Probably Bernie Saunders' amendment will go.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uponit7771]

37. +1

[Enthusiast]

128. Wrong.

[tritsofme]

177. Right.

[amborin]

15. K&R kudos to Dennis Kucinich!

[kratos12]

40. Useful idiot

Dennis, if he ends up blocking HCR will be acting as a useful idiot for the right.

The idea that killing the bill, maintaining the status quo, losing the house and or senate in the fall and probably losing the WH in 12 is somehow a good thing is the epitomy of narcissism.

Thinking that killing it will somehow result in a better deal down the road is lunacy at best, but Dennis thinks that only his ideas are good, only his ideas warrant serious consideration and if he can't have his ideas pass then bollucks to everyone else.

Dennis is essentially endorsing the status quo to the detriment of the 31 million uninsured and his party's ability to maintain control of government.

FYI to the poster who says Nader didn't give the WH to Bush, Ralph took 90K votes in Fl, Bush won by 536. Spin that anyway you please but 90K > 536 in the real world.

[Individualist]

90. Fail.

DLC's attempts to smear DK are ludicrous.

[Enthusiast]

131. It has nothing to do with narcissism.

A health care system run by the for-profit insurance industry is unsustainable anyway.

We aren't far from the tipping point where the consensus will be a single payer answer. Enacting the Democratic HCR bill might even delay the inevitable.

[sabrina 1]

190. Bush did not win! Gore won the popular vote and you are

accepting the inconclusive results at the point where the SC ended the counting of the votes. Had the counting continued, Gore would have won. That is why they stopped it. Several hundred thousand Democrats voted for Bush also. They did not vote for Nader. Of the 90k who voted for Nader, at least half would probably have voted for Bush, maybe more. All this has been proven anyhow, so it's a moot point. The election was stolen by the Republican Party using dirty tricks and illegal suppression of votes, and when it became apparent that even with all they did to steal it, Gore would still win, the SC stepped in and stopped the counting of the votes.

[Dinger]

18. K & R!!!!!!!!!!!

:patriot:

[Dinger]

19. Rec # 20, Just For The Record (nt)

[JVS]

22. Gotta love the Kooch!

[flvegan]

30. Hater/apologists swaaaaarrmmmmmm!!!!

:eyes:

[YOY]

106. +1

and swarm they have.

[lonestarnot]

35. K & R!

[uponit7771]

36. UNREC, Kucinish refuses to outline what he does like about the bill and if it's notthing then that's

...just proof positive that he hasn't read it.

The CHC's are worth voting for themselves.

[TornadoTN]

41. Please, he's outlined what he doesn't like about the bill time and time again

It's all over the internet if you care to look. He's been on TV and Radio shows talking about what he doesn't like about the bill.

[Enthusiast]

132. How about a mandate with no public option.

This is exactly why the HCR bill only has a 30% approval. Add the public option and the HCR bill becomes very popular. That's what I want and that is what Dennis wants.

[lonestarnot]

39. kick

:kick:

[inna]

42. KR+34 for Dennis!

[laughingliberal]

44. K & R nt

[liquid diamond]

46. IBTL

Every time there is a thread about this guy, things get ugly.
:rofl:

[laughingliberal]

53. Really? Cause there are at least 3 other active threads about him right now that aren't locked

Or was this just wishful thinking?

:rofl:

[liquid diamond]

54. I've seen it several times in the past.

Standby.

[laughingliberal]

57. And the other posts on DK?

Perhaps you're trying to flame this to get it locked? Cause it's getting a lot of recs?

[Maat]

48. I agree.

I could really use healthcare reform. We're subsisting off of my husband's small company income, and they want to raise our premiums 39%. That having been said, this bill does NOTHING. You see, mandating that they take a customer doesn't help, because they should have to take all customers AT MUCH LOWER RATES giving premium coverage. Secondly, they can still deny claims; there's nothing prohibiting them from doing that.

Third, requiring people to buy junk insurance is unconstitutional.

[ProSense]

49. Voting to deny millions of people access to health care is patriotic.

More than 40,000 people die each year due to lack of coverage, but denying them access to care is patriotic.

When the bill is signed into law, Kucinich can explain why he opposed these provisions.

[557188]

59. Insurance does not equal access

How do you people not realize this yet? Do you purposely ignore everything unless it comes straight from the White House or something??

[laughingliberal]

61. If it's not in a White House press release, it can't be true. nt

[ProSense]

64. "How do you people not realize this yet? " How do you not realize

that "Insurance does not equal access" is not only lame, but inaccurate?

First, some are throwing around the claim that this is an insurance reform, not health care reform? What is that supposed to mean? The point is to reform the health care system. Switching to single payer isn't health care either. The system is not the care. Insurance pays for access to health care. Insurers have been denying access to health care and will be banned from doing so when reform is passed. Their profits will be limited and the government will have greater control over rate increases. As for health care, that is provided by doctors.

[laughingliberal]

67. How do we not realize this, yet? We read the bill.

And there's stuff in there not found in the WH press releases or talking points.

[ProSense]

68. I doubt it

That is, I doubt you read the bill, or even understand it.

[laughingliberal]

73. I read every bill passed out of every committee-3 in the House, 2 in the Senate,

the final House bill, the blended bill that Reid wrote that combined the Senate HELP bill and the Senate Finance bill. Then I read the manager's amendment. And I've read the final Senate bill more than once. I've read the outline the President posted for his proposed bill. Not only that but I've worked in health care and studied health care policy for 26 years.

What would you like to know? Cause all I see from you is press releases and talking points. I've asked, in the past, for you to cite what section of the bill you find your 'facts' in and have not ever received a response to that.

But, just go on and say "I doubt it." It's about as substantive as any other argument I've seen.

[sabrina 1]

182. They will not be banned from refusing to treat the sick for five years

Why is that? There should be a law against that separate from any HCR Bill as it is a crime.

We should be happy that they are only going to allow the Healthcare Profit industry to refuse to treat sick people for four more years? What is wrong with Americans that they put up with this kind of abuse from their own government and convince themselves how lucky they are? What if that were a Republican proposal? We would be screaming about the 44,000 Americans who will die each year until then, wouldn't we? So, what makes their deaths any more acceptable if it's a Democratic Bill?

As for being 'covered' meaning access, it doesn't. The poor will 'go shopping' to this 'healthcare marketplace' with so little money they will only be able to buy the cheapest premiums, with co-pays so big, they won't go to the doctor anyhow. It is Machiavellian to force them to buy premiums they cannot use and to allow the Ins. Ind. to take that money from people who cannot afford it or to sic the IRS on them, as if they don't have enough problems to begin with.

This bill stinks. It is written by and for the Insurance Ind.

Wendall Potter, the Insurance Whistle-blower predicted this mandated insurance on the Bill Moyers Show before it became a reality. I did not believe it would as long as we had a Democratic Administration! He said the way the Ins. Corps view the uninsured was as 'a huge potential market'. And they intended to squeeze as much money out of the poor as they could. I still cannot believe that Democrats have allowed them to do that.

[truedelphi]

77. I like that - "insurance is not access."

Says it all in just four words.

But the only words the Political Class understand is this one: MONEY!

[David Zephyr]

56. And a representative of the People.

K&R

[laughingliberal]

58. +1000 nt

[ProSense]

66. How did he do in the last Presidential campaign?

Vote wise, what percentage of the vote did he get being "of the people"?

[laughingliberal]

69. Oh. so anyone who doesn't win a race for the WH is not a patriot? I never knew that was the criteria

So, by that logic, Bush was a representative of the people and Kerry is not. Let's make a list of everyone who did not win a race for the White House so we know who all the lawmakers who are not representatives of the people are.

Oh...wait.. he did win his race for his Congressional seat. Could be tricky. Perhaps he represents the people who elected him in his district. I wonder...maybe he's doing what they want....

[ProSense]

71. Wait,

FAIL!

[laughingliberal]

74. The stunningly substantive responses we've all come to expect

:rofl: :rofl:

[spoony]

195. He doesn't do so hot

when he can't just click 'paste' does he? ;)

[sabrina 1]

191. How did Gore, Kerry and Hillary do? What's your point? n/t

[slipslidingaway]

60. knr - I'm getting a bad feeling about this :( n/t

[OnyxCollie]

62. K&R. nt

[Walk away]

172. Nice agility photo! n/t

[OnyxCollie]

194. Thanks!

Dante's a good boy.

[G_j]

63. & it was pretty lonely for him voting against Bush policies

when so many Dems for voting for them.

[laughingliberal]

70. Yep.

[truedelphi]

78. That right there tells you how little the two parties are apart from one another.

Dennis is like the last remaining True Dem.

[Jax]

80. k&r this post.

spot on.

[Indi Guy]

65. K&R - Kucinich is a Pure Patriot...

...very rare breed these days.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. The Democratic leadership is too busy listening to the Insurance Lobbyists to listen to Dennis..

or the people they're supposed to be working for.

[Vidar]

79. K&R.

[Kitty Herder]

81. K&R

[DisgustedInMN]

82. If they had listened to DK...

... they wouldn't be about to get their collective ass waxed in the midterm and Obama might have a shot at being more than a lame duck one term failure.

[elocs]

83. I don't blame or hate DK. I just do not genuflect & have an orgasm at the mention of his name

as so many seem to do. I find that Dennis Kucinich has some good ideas and viewpoints, but he is like the mouse that roared: he makes a lot of noise and accomplishes little.

[Enthusiast]

134. How fucking stupid.

A politician stands up for what we believe in so we praise him. You equate that with genuflecting and having an orgasm. elocs. I'll remember that, elocs.

[elocs]

140. Good for you, except I won't be seeing your posts anymore.

:bounce:

[Echo In Light]

86. k/r for DK

[Individualist]

87. DLC's failed attempts to smear him

show up in every thread about DK. They detest progressives.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

88. Yes he is.

More Dennis Kucinichs and Bernie Saunders please, less Blanch Lincoln and Evan Bayhs, please.

[Eyerish]

89. K&R

[fishwax]

91. I like DK

I'm not convinced that he's right here, but I won't join in the silly hating.

[Bluenorthwest]

92. Indeed he is.

[bc3000]

95. Kucinich 2012!!!

The only way Obama will start acting like a democrat is if we make it clear that his incumbent candidacy is not a forgone conclusion.

[ProSense]

97. His first campaign question:

This was Conyers advocating single payer in May 2008:

Equally disturbing, the Institute of Medicine reports that 20,000 Americans die each year as a direct result of having no health insurance. How can we, in the Congress, who receive fairly decent health care, tell 47 million uninsured Americans that they cannot have access to health care?

With the knowledge that 20,000 Americans die each year without health insurance, how can we, in Congress, who do have health insurance, not place universal health care as a front burner issue in this chamber?

link

Good question. Don't Americans deserve "fairly decent health care"?

Question: Why did you vote against the health care bill?

[peace13]

123. I thought you were going to say, 'do you believe in UFOs?'

I have supported Kucinich through thick and thin and continue to contribute to his campaign even though I live outside of his district. This issue however...leaves me confused. I agree that either way his first question will be awkward.

[onenote]

99. if you think that Kucinich poses a threat to Obama being renominated

I want some of what you are smoking.

I would never question Kucinich's patriotism and I would never support intra-party challenge to his candidacy for his seat in Congress. But he has never demonstrated the capacity to forge a broad enough coalition of support to succeed on a national level and there is no way a primary challenge by him to Obama would threaten Obama's chances of be renominated.

[Lord Helmet]

102. Kucinich running for president is as predictable as

the grunion run

Pretending Obama should fear him is precious.

[sabrina 1]

192. I hope so, because THIS time, if he runs, I would support him.

So will many who didn't last time even though they preferred him over all the other candidates. Now we know, it's always best to vote your conscience. But Dennis will not run against a Democrat as he is far too principled to do that. So we won't get the chance again, sad to say.

[madrchsod]

98. one of the few that will say it`s wrong...

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leave iraq]

101. I am Dennis Kucinich!

[Plucketeer]

103. Patriot indeed!

One of the rarest kind - the kind with priciples and the balls to stand by them.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

104. K&R for DK!!!

[Jester Messiah]

105. How about this:

President Obama and Dennis Kucinich disagree on the best way to accomplish the best outcome for the most people, but they are both patriots who are serving our country in the way they think best.
Neither of them is a black-garbed villain attempting the destruction of the country.

[RainDog]

130. Obama needs to try for some bipartisanship. he should reach out to democrats

because his governing style is republican.

that's not what I voted for.

[Jester Messiah]

170. You're entitled to your opinion.

Even if it is a steaming pile of horse crap.

[flyarm]

109. K&R for Dennis!! eom

[fascisthunter]

115. Indeed! (nt)

[bertman]

118. AMEN!! We need more like him instead of a bunch of corporate-owned panty-waists who

are scared to death to go against the PTB.

[Goldstein1984]

119. "Liberals" who support the Insurance Mandate Bill (aka "HCR")

are turning on him. He isn't my senator, but I sent him a note telling him to hang tough in his opposition. This bill, which disguises a half-assed reform effort amounting to not much more than handing millions of customers to a corrupt industry that contributes nothing health-related to health care, uses "providing insurance to the uninsured" as an argument for just getting something mislabeled as health care reform passed before the 2010 elections.

Kucinich is holding out for real reform.

[gholtron]

121. I would agree with Dennis if we had the votes

I just don't get it. Here we are at the tip of making history on healthcare and we fight it because it does not have everything that we want. I like Dennis Kucinich. I believe that he would be a good President but on this one, I have to strongly disagree with him. Maybe he was not watching last August when two Public Option admendments failed in the Senate finance committee. Maybe he was not there when the House BARELY passed their version of HC with PO in December. Maybe he does not understand that with THIS Congress, you can not get any Single Payer Or Public Option through. But we have to crawl before we can walk and then we can run. If this fails, we are looking at 40 more years of wondering in the wilderness and being at the mercy of the insurance companies anyway. So I just don't get it. Please explain it to me somebody.

[Enthusiast]

122. What he says on the current

health care reform bill is spot on. Why should we perpetuate a for-profit system like the one we have? There is simply no justification for it.

[butterfly77]

129. This is a fucked up party..

they are all over the damn place,that's why we can't get a damn thing done.

Are we suppose to get a public option now,tell me what is his stance suppose to do? Now,will the bluedogs do go along and change to a public option?

[Raksha]

137. K & R

[SlingBlade]

138. Dennis Kucinich is a patriot K & R !

[dionysus]

139. he is the wind beneath my wings.

[azmouse]

149. No one could have said it better!

:hi:

[dionysus]

162. i try

:hi:

[angelicwoman]

141. great point n/t

[Greyhound]

143. K&R. Excellent.

[Swamp Rat]

144. k&r

:patriot:

[enki23]

150. Fuck Dennis Kucinich. I will not see my loved ones suffer, or die, for his fucking "principles"

.

[557188]

160. Dennis was against the Iraq war before it was popular to be against it

I'm sure a lot of peoples "loved ones" suffered because of that colossal mistake.

Dennis is right. Simple as that.

[sabrina 1]

183. What utter nonsense. If the Democratic Party as a whole

had his principles, no one would ever have died for lack of healthcare. This bill will allow the dying to continue because people will not be able to afford the co-pays on the premiums they will be forced to pay for. Nor can they afford the fines. That is a Republican idea adapted by Democrats, and idea that Democrats opposed until now.

Look at what is happening in Mass. with Romneycare, which is what this bill is, if you want to see what is going to happen if it passes, only on a much larger scale.

Democrats have abandoned their base, abandoned the Unions who supported them, abandoned everyone but the Insurance Industry. Kucinich is saying what OBama said before he changed his mind. And you prefer someone who flip-flops to someone stands firm on what is right. That is the problem with this country. Party politics over principles and doing what is right. This bill is the biggest flip flop ever in the history of politics in my lifetime.

[Sebastian Doyle]

152. I changed my avatar today for Dennis

after reading the 6th or 7th Message Discipline LLC thread bashing him. All of which are still open, as far as I know.

Funny how often ACTUAL Democrats are bashed on this board.

[Mike 03]

154. I'm certainly not blaming him for anything except being a little bit dumb, and unqualified to

sit on legislative Committees having anything serious to do with the economy.

Other than that, I like, respect and admire him.

I simply wish he had better staff, prepared better for hearings, and knew what he was asking and why he was asking it--and listened to the answers.

That's my only complaint.

[warm regards]

161. I may not always agree with him, but how can you not respect his honesty?

[Mike 03]

164. Dennis Kucinich was a phenomenon that people wanted to believe in, who never quite

panned out. It wasn't even his fault. It was the fault of people who worshiped him and put all of this hope on his shoulders.

ON EDIT:

Kind of like Ross Perot.

[pundaint]

186. and obama, to date.

[mother earth]

169. Kucinich is a hero! A lone voice for we the people. TPTB

are privatizing profits for the 1%, they are empowering the corporate welfare state of the nation. It's high time someone stands for what is right. I have lost all faith in this political system, it's time to take back our democracy. The moneychangers have bought & sold the country to the corporation.

Edited for K & R!

[Echo In Light]

198. +1

[SoxFan]

174. Eric Massa must be Zeke Mowatt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeke_Mowatt

[RoccoR5955]

178. Markos Moulitsas is a tool.

After he came out and said that they should wage a primary against Kucinich if he votes against the Insurance Company bailout bill.
I am so angry at him right now.
Saying that he is being like Nader. He's not, and Markos knows it. I wonder if Rahm is paying him off, to be less liberal.


As far as I am concerned we need about 100,000,000 more Kuciniches in this country, THEN, and only then, could we see REAL change in this country, and see it revert back to WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations, who own it now.

KUCINICH/SANDERS 2012!

[sabrina 1]

184. He always was. I think it's generally known by now though.

He doesn't have much influence or respect in the blogosphere generally speaking. No one really pays attention to him except for what's left on his site. I wouldn't worry about anything he says too much.

[Overseas]

188. K&R. I'm glad we have Dennis. //nt

[kgnu_fan]

189. He is true American with American Ideal!!!!

[DisgustedInMN]

193. Dennis Kucinich stands for We the People...

.. Conservadems stand only for the highest bidder. One has integrity, the other doesn't.

We the People know which is which.