Is America over?

[Cyrano]

I guess your answer to that question depends on your age. If you weren’t old enough to vote when Ronald Reagan came along, I don’t know how you’d answer that question.

But if you were old enough to vote in 1980, then you’ve seen the America that once existed drop into a bottomless sewer.

It was Reagan who convinced millions of morons that cutting taxes would solve everything.

It was Reagan who convinced millions of morons that government was “evil.”

It was Reagan who convinced millions of middle class morons into believing his idiotic delusions. And as a result, what’s left of the American middle class has been demolished.

How many people really saw where “Reaganism” was leading us?

How many people really grasped the consequences of his policies?

Are you happy with your job situation today?

Are you happy with you’re medical coverage today?

Are you happy with the city of whores called Washington D.C.?

IMO, our country might be broken beyond repair. We’re owned by corporations, who also own our politicians and the media.

We get to vote, but have no idea how the companies who own the machines manipulate that vote.

We get 24/7 propaganda from Fox, and the vast majority of media owned by Murdoch and his fellow billionaires and propagandists.

We try to break through the “news” by using the internet, but it’s a David and Goliath fight, with us being David and having no slingshot.

After the Earth turns enough times, things may change. Change has been the only constant in history. But this time around, global warming may beat us to the final outcome. And it will be aided and abetted by those who cynically ignore the fact that global warming even exists.

So what do you think? Is America, (and possibly the rest of the civilized world), teetering on the edge of extinction?

[Romulox]

1. I think America is at a point where it still has to get worse before it gets better...

My hope is for a peaceful break up of the US, though I am not optimistic.

[Skittles]

86. it's not going to get better when NO ONE in Washington represents WE THE PEOPLE

[villager]

2. A discussion about what happens when the answer is clearly "yes:"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x522905

[SargeUNN]

3. I said during the Presidential Campaign

on my radio show, that I was afraid that it didn't matter if George Washington, Abe Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, or whomever was president, that the fascist influence was way too strong now to matter. I look at things going on, reactions from the left, then look at the history of fascism in Italy, and I am becoming more convinced we are just an election away from full blown fascism. We have so much in common with Italy from the days of the rise of Mussolini and yet those who don't want to admit to our being slanted toward fascism want to point to Nazi Germany. Truth is we are much closer to the Italian version but since that goes back to the 20s and not wanting to admit that Nazism was a hybrid, we just keep pointing to it while ignoring Italy. I am not optimistic we will get it.

[Cyrano]

19. It's been said many time that history never repeats itself in exactly the same way.

Nonetheless, given a choice between Mussolini's Italy, and Hitler's Germany, there's no doubt that most of us would rather have lived in Rome.

But I believe this to be a false choice. What lies ahead may be lesser than Mussolini's Italy, or much greater than Hitler's Germany. There are many variations on these themes, and if our country is good at anything, it is discovering new variations that defy established models of the past.

I don't remember who it was that said, "I fear for my country when I remember that God is just." But I agree with the sentiment even though I am a non-believer. For some reason, I believe that there is some kind of unexplainable balance to the universe.

[Bicoastal]

4. Good Grief. Another day, another "sky is falling" post...

...that will probably be rec'ed up to the heavens because people here feel stronger when they give in to absolute dispair.

I'd probably be in a better mood to response to this if I didn't see one every day since I joined. And don't kid yourself--if the Internet and DU had been around since Clinton,Reagan Nixon JFK, FDR, etc. the pattern would still be the same. There's nothing new about predicting the End of All Good Things.

Look--I'm not dead yet, nor am I completely destitute. I'm also not in a position to feed the entire world's hungry or cure the world's sick by myself. And I can't predict the future. There's a lot that needs to be done, and there are a few things I try to do to improve the world in tiny ways every single day...

But I really couldn't care less about addressing Doomsday on this forum, because I'm sure it will take more than hammering away on our computer keyboards to stop it.

[Dogmudgeon]

6. What HE just said

:thumbsup:

--d!

[SargeUNN]

8. Pass the rose colored glasses

yeah who wants anything that isn't rose colored and cheery? To post such a statement is dangerous and helps promote the very thing we don't want to happen. We have to be aware and to ignore it only feeds the beast. I have seen too many that didn't want to plan for death because it was too morbid, but when the family had to make decisions on such matters found themselves torn up wondering. We can only stop something when we face it.

[Bicoastal]

15. Yeah, you guys are really raising awareness by sitting there and typing...

...never mind that you're 100% preaching to the choir who already agrees with your salient points. I do too, for the most part.

But in these screeds, there's always the subtle guarantee that there's nothing we can do about it, so we should just keep ranting away. The best way to get change NOT to happen is to reassure people that the situation is hopeless, so why should they bother to do ANYTHING but sit on their lazy duffs and wait for the Second Coming?

Positivity motivates. Imminent death? Not so much.

[Cyrano]

21. Okay, Bicoastal. You're great at shooting down pessimism.

So I'll tell you what. Here's your chance to sell us all on your optimism.

I really hope that you will take this opportunity. I won't sneer at or degrade your response. I will treat it with respect.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and tell those of us who see disaster ahead that we're being negative, or worse.

So here's your chance to be positive. (And believe me. I want so much to share with you that positive world view.)

Please make your case. Nothing would please me more than for you to make me a convert.

[Bicoastal]

27. I would, believe me...

...but I have to leave for work. When I come back at around 10, we'll resume this.

[SargeUNN]

22. Apparently you don't read well either

To say such to me is a sign you neither read well or have any idea who the hell you are talking to. First thing if you read you see I do a radio show, Secondly, if you knew about me you would be very aware of the many things I have done and do as it is. You would see that I talk to congress members both houses, talk to the white house, attend events often and put my life on the line. Maybe you should spend less time typing your responses and see who the hell you are talking to instead.

[MineralMan]

30. Actually, it appears that you do a webcast. Perhaps I didn't

see the radio station that broadcasts your program.

[SargeUNN]

33. your reading skills are showing again

I am currently carried on WXBH-FM Louisville Ky. as it states and until recently was carried on AM 1670 San Antonio Tx. plus before that was carried on WQRZ-FM in Mississippi. I was with Nova M/KPHX before that. See wikipedia for more. Maybe you again should spend more time checking out things before you post and make yourself seem less informed?

[MineralMan]

37. I went to the website listed in your profile.

I just went back there, and didn't see that station listed on the website's home page. Maybe I missed it somehow. If so, I apologize.

It doesn't seem to be on your website's home page. I just looked for the third time. Where was I supposed to have read this? You say I have not read something properly, but I'm not quite sure what you expect me to have read.

[MineralMan]

42. "see who the hell you are talking to"

Oh, my. We seem to be very taken with ourselves, don't we.

I asked you a question about your web site just downthread. What is it that you suppose we should be reading to discover what station broadcasts your radio show. It's not listed on the website you have on your profile, at least not prominently enough for me to have found it in three visits there.

Since you only have a handful of posts here, I assume you don't mean that we should have read all of your posts. I hope not, anyhow. That would be very time-consuming to search them out for reading.

So, what reading is it, exactly, that you think we all should have done before daring to reply to one of your posts?

I'll take your answer off the air. :rofl:

[NeedleCast]

26. +1

[voc]

89. +1

Now. I am not "ignoring the author of this thread". whatever that means.

[earthside]

5. The Irony, of Course ...

... is that because of Reagan the corporatization of the government got underway in earnest. Then with the eight years of corporate infiltration of all levels of government under G.W. Bush, well, the government is evil now.

This is the biggest blind spot for a lot of liberals and progressives, they want to believe that this government is somehow still going to be a solution to our problems. But this government "of the corporations, by the corporations and for the corporations" is not our friend, it is the enemy.

So, until there is a genuine revolt and overthrow of the corporate state as it currently exists in this nation, then the government shouldn't be trusted and should be resisted. Let's just hope that there is a revolt soon -- a peaceful revolt -- and we can reclaim our government and country for us, the people.

[wolfgangmo]

16. The irony, of course ...

Is that no revolt is ever peaceful. Even Ghandi's followers got their heads bashed in and were machine gunned down (and the only reason that the general who ordered the machine gunning wasn't given a promotion and carte blanche was that the British public was aghast. Do you really think that would happen today? Really?).

If there is a revolution it will be bloody and it will be brutal.

But I doubt that a revolution is on the way. Evolution is more like it and I don't see the USA as the big dog on the block when it is done.

[omega minimo]

47. Nader lover

:hi:

[galileoreloaded]

7. I don't know, I just think the corruption is more overt.... n/t

[asdjrocky]

9. America is not over, it is unfinished.

America, as the founders saw it, was always meant to be an unfinished country. That's why we are trying to make it more perfect.

We are meant to discuss, to dissent, to rebel to make the changes America needs.

America is not done, it is not finished.

America is the great unfinished country and that's why I still love it.

[Cyrano]

23. I admire your belief.

And I might even have agreed with you some years back.

But America is now a country owned, bought and paid for. The majority of the 300 million of us who live here are nothing more than serfs who are to be taken advantage of and taken for everything we own or ever want to own.

International corporations own America, they own our politicians, they own our media and they own us. (The song "This Land is Your Land, This Land is My Land" has become a gigantic piece of bullshit.)

There are many online sites, and still some publications like "The Nation" magazine, or the "New Yorker," where you can go to find out the truth.

So love, believe in, and hug America to yourself as much as you want. I hate to be this blunt, but you're being fucked on a daily basis and you don't know it. Read. Learn. Stay online. Think. And most importantly, try to grasp the concept that America is no longer America.

[asdjrocky]

35. Oh please be blunt.

Don't try to tell me the truth or tell me what to read. I subscribe to the Nation and I read the New Yorker on a regular basis. I'm well versed in Zinn, look at the photo on my sig, and I know Naomi, Chomsky and all the others.

I can quote all of them if you like.

America is an idea, and People. I love the idea of America and I always have and I always well. That's not the same thing as saying it's a perfect place or what form America will be in a hundred years from now, but the idea endures.

Right now? Things are fixed for the rich, as it has been since and before the revolution. You need to read your history, pal. If you think this is only since the Reagan era. You need to study.

The founders fixed America for the rich, they were all bond holders. That's what the Bill of Rights was about. That's what the Whiskey Rebellion was about. Look it up, it's a fact. America has always been a place with welfare for the rich and little for the People. Look at how the railroads were built and how the railroad barons acquired their large parcels of land. It was a fucking give away. Up until the labor movements of the 19th and the early 20th century America was a place where children worked, sometimes until death, and there was no such thing as a living wage or a 40 hour work week.

You have this fantasy of America being a wonderful place before Reagan came along and you are just wrong and anyone that knows anything would see how silly you look for attempting to condesend to someone who knows so much more about the real history of this country. If you believe in the FDR fantasy then you my friend are the one being fucked on a daily basis.

I'd suggest you read The People's History, once you're finished come on back and I'll rec another book. They have a comic book version if that will help.

As for international corporations take a good look at the East India Trading Company. We've always been owned by international corps.

And by the way, you completely misread me original reply. Do you get that yet?

[Cyrano]

55. Good luck with your beliefs about some delusion that we still call America.

I won't demean your beliefs, nor will I try to convince you that you may be mistaken.

As a matter of fact, I sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong.

I remember growing up in a country that I was once proud of, that represented freedom and that gave me the chance to be whatever I wanted to be.

Whatever the past sins of this country over the 200+ years we've been in existence, most of us were grateful that we were born and grew up here.

But after Vietnam, Nixon, Reagan, Bush Jr. and each and every crime committed by our country against the rest of the world, please don't lecture me about American "ideals."

I, for one, have given up on nationalism. I don't "love" any country, state, or political entity. And in the 21st century, I've come to hold many of them in contempt. You used the phrase "FDR fantasy."

My, friend, if it wasn't for the FDR "fantasy," you, and many more of us might not even exist today. What Franklin Roosevelt accomplished was one of the greatest feats that could have been pulled off during a period as deep as the depression we were in. And anyone who doesn't respect him for that is in a league with Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck who will keep telling us that the world is flat. That is one statement of yours that I hold in contempt.

So if you choose to be a "super patriot," be my guest.

[asdjrocky]

70. You calling me a super patriot is the most ridiculous thing in a very ridiculous post.

You tell someone to know history when you are so obviously naive of the real history of America.

You can love an idea, so sorry your narrow field of vision does not allow conflicting thoughts.

You say you don't want to demean my beliefs and then call me a super patriot, that's rich.

I won't even comment on the asinine Rush and Beck statement,other than to say know your real American history.

[ncguy]

40. If you feel that way,

may I suggest getting out of corporate america and start you own business.

I did, and I am happier. I make less money, but I control my destiney (to some extent)

It's not easy, and it isn't a guaranteed panacea, but if you are misareble working for a big corporation, then leave. If you are misareble buys porducts from big corporations, then please do business with small business.

This country has taken some licks. It's fallen down, and we are taking a few kicks while we are down. But we can get up. We have to power to fix things and the corps cannot stop us, not without our complicity.

[reggie the dog]

46. I left the USA, It is a shithole compared to many other countries

I recommend that you all do the same. I have been saying this for 7 years. GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN!

[Jennicut]

10. Well, we certainly are on the edge. Of what who knows. I was five when Reagan was elected.

I wonder what the younger Gen Xers and Millenials think. Those of us 18 to 34 really have gotten some real crap to deal with. The jobs picture is bleak.

[reggie the dog]

48. I was born in 1979

By some definitions I am gen X by some I am a millenial. I have never trusted the government. They are the assholes that tax me to make wars. They taught me in kindergarden that pot smokers had no right to raise kids in DARE. I LEAERNED AT AGE 5 THAT MY PARENTS WERE UNFIT! If only they smoked tobacco..... As a teenager I learned that if you did not look rich you got stopped and fucked with, even beaten by the cops (and I am white). I also learned that Democrats like free trade with Mexico, so in other words thanks to Clinton I learned early on that the Democrats DO NOT LIKE WORKING CLASS PEOPLE! In college I really learned about class war, read up some Howard Zinn.....and came to the realization that COROPORATIONS ARE GODS IN THE USA! What they say goes and fuck us people. So you know what, after I got my MA I left. FUCK THE USA. I have not even asked for nationality for my 2 year old. FUCK the richest country in the world that tells its poor to die for lack of health care, and makes its poor feel guilty about being fucked. FUCK THE USA for spending more on killing and war than they ever spend on healing. FUCK THE USA for leading a moral holy war on drugs against reefer smoking folks like me and my family (yes pot is illegal in France but there is no moral war on drugs and it is decriminalized here). FUCK THE USA for encouraging people to be idiots. FUCK THE USA for letting corporations run everything and using the USA to take over the world. FUCK FREE TRADE, FUCK NAFTA (and you too BILL for signing it into law)I could go on and on but I am gonna smoke some hash and grade some of my students tests.

[Jennicut]

58. DARE...I remember that! "Just Say No", remember Nancy Reagan's thing against drugs?

I don't know if you were to young for that but it was big deal in elementary school in the early 80's during Reagan's drug wars. Just think, we could actually lock up people who need to be in jail (violent criminals) if we did not have any drug related offenses in there. I personally am for drug legalization of ALL drugs though many people don't want to go that far. Most Gen Xers and Millenials think drug laws are a waste of money and time. If someone wants to get off drugs or it becomes destructive in their lives, jail time will do nothing. Treatment programs are far better then simply jail.

[reggie the dog]

62. Dare taught me to hate my parents

my dad told me dare was hitler youth bullshit. I never called the cops and ratted out daddy or his reefer smoking biker buddies. HA HA HA DARE I SMOKE REEFER TOO!!!! In jr High in the early 90s' dare taught us all that cannabis automatically led to using heroin 6 months after the first use. They gave us stats saying that 38% of people had tried cannabis and 2% had tried heroin. 2 YEAR OLD STATS!!! So I pointed out that heroin should be legal because the whole 38% or whatever who had tried pot 2 years early was all addicted to heroin and that if 38% of the country was hooked on heroin and no one in the class had ever seen folks use heroin then herion must not be that bad because even with a 38% heroin addiction rate (remember cannabis use automatically led to heroin addiction within 6 months) the country still functioned. The pig teaching it got mad, insulted my long hair and then got his ass chewed out by my math teacher (they were taking up math time to teach dare)


yes I know my enemies
They are the teachers who taught me to fight me
Compromise, conformity, assimulation, submission
Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite
All of which are American dreams


WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jennicut]

68. My brother was a pot smoking, long haired kid too. He was 3 years older then me.

He got harassed all the time...the late 80's and early 90's. Peaceful guy. Totally non violent and into nature. They really tried to assimilate him but it didn't work. Still has his long hair at 37.

[reggie the dog]

71. me too, still long hair, still love nature, and I am 31

I even mountain bike around in nature while stoned! what a horror!

[reggie the dog]

72. double post

;

[gypsy11]

80. It often makes them worse...

Jail time, that is.

You're right, treatment programs, even if offered in jail, would help much more than what we have now. I know there are some programs in some jails, but they are not nearly enough. I imagine for some addicts, a treatment program might feel similar to jail- at least at first... But I don't think just throwing someone who has problems with addiction in a cell will do much to help them find the tools they need to solve their problems, that's for sure.

[cherokeeprogressive]

11. Nnnnnnnope. It's not over. It's not dying. It's not on the verge of "extinction".

It's not any of those things.

It's ill. Sick. In need of a little change in its diet and exercise routine. Maybe in need of an antibiotic regimen. It's gotta stop smoking.

Over? What the fuck does that even mean?

[wolfgangmo]

12. America the republic, america the bastion of democracy? Yes.

America the empire, and America the enforcement arm of corporate interests? No.

[branders seine]

13. America lies on the battlefield of the class war,

limbs blown off, horrific internal injuries,
severe head wound, bleeding out.

The last few seconds of life are ticking down, but the
medic just loaded us up with an overdose of American Idol
morphine, so everything is fine, thanks!

We're number one!

[eShirl]

14. Rome lasted a few more centuries after the Republic died.

Just sayin'.

[cali]

17. It's the end of the world as we know it.

I had a classics prof once who said that she believed the world is always teetering on the edge of the abyss and that only the prayers of some obscure anchorite were keeping it from falling over the edge.

[Taverner]

18. Well, I'll let Ned Beatty do the talking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzSj1yNZdY8

Except there is no perfect world, Mr Beale...

The last man standing will be the corporations, and us as their slaves

Have a nice day!

[FreeJoe]

20. I'm old enough...

to be very optimistic about our future. Yes, we are in a recession now...a bad one. We've been in much worse situations before - several depressions, world wars, and a civil war come to mind.

I think that things are starting to get better and that this country will continue to be a great place to live.

I look at my life compared to my parents and their parents that I couldn't come close to listing all of them. I have tremendous technical advantages in every area - better medical care; safer, more comfortable, more efficient, less polluting cars; computers; a communications revolution driven by essentially free long distance calls, cells phones, and the internet; better travel options because of cheaper airfare and better roads; amazing improvements in clothing materials. I could go on and on.

The rest of the world has seen even more incredible improvements. When I look at the improvment in living standards in the two most populous countries in the world, I am amazed.

You talk about controlled news, but the truth is that we have better access to information than we ever have. I can choose from a huge number of traditional news sources as well as an amazing variety of online sources.

Maybe I'm just a Pollyanna because I have a good job and things are working out well for me, but I see a bright future ahead for myself and my children. My life has been so much easier than my parents and theirs was a walk in the park compared with their parents.

[NeedleCast]

24. No

It's different though, that's for sure.

[WilliamPitt]

25. (facepalm)

No.

[cali]

39. cheerleader. rank nationalist. fearful good little American

I sneer in your general direction.

[omega minimo]

54. "I sneer in your general direction." :scratcheshead: You sneer in every direction

:shrug:

[cali]

69. nah, my sneering is actually rather selective, darling.

and my comment to Will was reflective of comments upthread that accused those not agreeing with the OP of being cheerleaders, etc, etc, etc.

[omega minimo]

73. that's what you think

:hi:

[tom_paine]

77. Sorry, Will - reality sucks but it's still reality

It was already over on 12/12/2000. The corpse is just starting to really stink so that it can't be ignored.

As you know, I have been tracking our progress to What We Are Becoming, as Helen Thomas puts it, since that dark day, and the checkpoints passed have been continually coming with such regularity all that time.

The rise of Oath Keepers and TeaBaggers, the "Glenn Beck" marketing scheme which now comes outright and says "despise Teddy Roosevelt" as well as crazily equating progressivism with fascism, these are BIG check marks and right on time, I must say.

The Bushies & their Corporate Fellow-Travellers were smart to loot the economy right before the election and thereby let Obama win. Smart marketing and PR. No one will ever again question our corrupted "voting" system again. Obama isn't delaying their plans one bit and his very presence has allowed them to push their RW Loonies to the next level of America-hating and "kill the liberals".

We are now coming to the end of Middle-Transition Phase. Penultimate Phase and Final Phase will be coming.

Far-Right Corporate Neofeudalism or old-fashioned Nazi/KKK lunatic brutality? Those are our remaining choices as a nation.

I wish it wasn't so, but the "tipping point" has been passed long-ago.

[LatteLibertine]

28. It's in a very fragile state

due to crony capitalism, corporatism and near zero meaningful regulation.

There are a some very wealthy greedy sociopaths with no concern for the future who are seriously jeopardizing our prospects.

We can't continue on the course we are on. We may already be bankrupt and we may soon officially become a banana republic.

Both political parties are far too often sock puppets for wealthy special interests, consequences for the overwhelming majority be damned.

[renie408]

29. Which decade was better, purer, had less propaganda? n/t

[reggie the dog]

51. 1945 to 1975 had a higher standard of living

better job prospects, and a whole list of better offs than today.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

56. ...if you were a white male...

[reggie the dog]

63. perhaps I am ignorant

but civil rights came in for non whites very late I know but by 1965 or so.... having said that I know discrimination existed after that.

[cherokeeprogressive]

87. "Civil Rights" hasn't improved the lifestyle of very many non-whites.

Look around.

[reggie the dog]

90. I know that there are many poor non whites

I see what you mean. The golden age of america was golden for many whites and few non whites.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. "America died from a delusion she had Moral Leadership." - Will Rogers

If America ever passes out as a great nation, we ought to put on our tombstone: America died from a delusion she had Moral Leadership. ~Will Rogers

[SargeUNN]

32. lack of optimism doesn't mean doom either

The fact that someone isn't optimistic doesn't mean they think it is hopeless. What it may mean is more like they think if we wake up and realize it can happen if things don't start being realized more, but hopefully will isn't doomsday.

I have had the fortune of talking with a man many times who was a SS officer that was a POW during WW2. He told me how they didn't believe Germany could fall because they couldn't see their country ever ending. He told me how they refused to admit how wrong the country was going until it was too late.

We must realize our state of being, and while hoping we will change our wrongs, we must not realize our potential to ruin our nation any less than our potential to grow better. We must be aware and want our people to be honest about our status unless we want to take the chance of suddenly finding ourselves drowning. Look at Katrina alone, how many are calling for more focus on it? Did you realize some of the same stuff is still going on? How many know about the toxic trailers? Do you know where these trailers are now? Do you know of the ones still suffering from Katrina issues? Is it hard to believe that if another Katrina happened how much would be related to problems still unaddressed from Katrina?

Obama has done more in Katrina than Bush, but folks this admin. has not done nearly enough to brag about either. My work in Katrina has made me realize that every aspect of Katrina is corrupted. I almost lost my life from this discovery, and even now when I get too involved in any area of Katrina I eventually found the warning, go any further you will face being killed. If it is going on in Katrina and we know of many other issues this is true, just how far does it goes? It is something we have to know about and can stop, but to ignore it isn't the answer.

[Cyrano]

60. No one is suggesting we ignore it.

But here's my question. How do we fight back?

We're up against the most intrusive, technically competent, most personally invasive government in the history of the world.

Fighting back requires one of two things: (1) Superior technologically, or; (2) Keeping off the grid (which means doing everything possible to make yourself not exist in any official records anywhere, anytime.

Both of these options are virtually impossible (in today's world).

[independent voter]

34. We may very well be nearing the end

The extremists who have total control of GOP are willing to utterly destroy our democracy at any cost.

They have realized that it is a lot easier to manipulate their followers with lies, and they have made disinformation and propaganda their entire platform. They now have angry mobs protesting against things that aren't even in the health bill, but their blind devotion to "the Party" has made them virtual automatons, completely willing to shut down our system of free and civic discourse, silencing anyone who dares to point out their utter lies.

[3324SS]

36. America Died With the Election of Rancid Ronnie

Now I am just hoping to hold on with a job and heath insurance for another 15 years then I am so gone..never to return to this country again.

If the Health Insurance Give away passes with out a Public Option America will spiral downward at a pace that will make peoples heads spin.

Dennis Kucinich is 100% correct:

Rep. Kucinich: Well, keep in mind I voted against the first version of the bill in the house. I told the president twice in two different meetings that I couldn't support the bill, didn't have a robust public option and at least if it didn't have something that was going to protect consumers from these rapid premium increases and you know what? The white house counts me as wavering.

The fact of the matter is, I listened to the president in your news story here, and to hear the president, you'd think that he was for single payor, at least a public option. But he's not.

This bill represents a giveaway to the insurance industry, $70 billion a year, and no guarantees of any control over premiums, forcing people to buy private insurance, five consecutive years of double-digit premium increases. I mean, I'm sorry. I just don't see that this bill is the solution. The insurance companies are the problem and we're giving them a version of a bailout.


LO:What do you say to the president and democrats who say, let's get it passed and then we can build on it with future legislation?

Rep. Kucinich: You're building on sand. There is no structure here. You're building on a foundation of privatization of our health care system. That's the problem. The insurance companies are the problem. They're nothing to build on. We build our hopes on the insurance companies and all we'll have is more poverty in this country. And people aren't -- people aren't going to get the care they need.

Remember, insurance companies make money not providing health care. That is a fundamental truth about our health care system . . .

[earth mom]

38. I knew Reagan was evil way back in the 80s. It's been downhill ever since then.

But as far as extinction, I think the planet will be deciding that for us, since Obama & Congress have done diddly squat to address Global Warming.

While those idiots have fiddled farted around and played politics to the nth degree in Washington DC and Copenhagan, the planet is getting ready to give us all the finger.

I'm more worried and afraid for our planet than I give a shit about this country or the assholes that have run it into the ground.

[Stuckinthebush]

41. No, America will be here for a while

The correct question is, "Is American dominance over?"

I think that answer is "Yes" or "Almost".

[reggie the dog]

53. cool, then they can fucking leave the rest of us alone!

[Stuckinthebush]

57. Agreed

That would be nice.

[Initech]

43. Over? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! And it ain't over now!

[ncguy]

49. WTF, over?

Is this sarcasm?

[Initech]

66. I take it you've never seen "Animal House".

[Last_Stand]

95. LOL

Don't forget when the Italians burned the White House, and when the Canadians attacked the Alamo.

Lady Liberty survived all that too!

[reggie the dog]

44. Reagan convinced millions that government was the solution

how did Reagan convince people government was evil??? THE WAR ON DRUGS???? That is pretty big government.

[WeekendWarrior]

45. I have to fundamentally disagree with your first point

The America that existed pre-Reagan was no laugh fest. There was a lot of shit going down with Nixon, shit going down with McCarthy, Vietnam, the whole ball of wax. The country was just as fucked up then as it is now -- only without the communication skills we have today. In fact, in many ways it's better today. So, I don't think the "America that once existed" dropped into a bottomless sewer. It's just that the sewer is easier to see now.

[omega minimo]

50. Nonsense. "Better today"? You LIKE corporate government?

"The country was just as fucked up then as it is now -- only without the communication skills we have today. In fact, in many ways it's better today."

It was "fucked up then" but not "as it is now." And those "communication skills" aka propaganda and corporate media consolidation have a lot to do with it.

[WeekendWarrior]

61. What the fuck do you think the Robber Barons were?

That's a term that gained new popularity during THE DEPRESSION -- meaning Big Business.

NOTHING has changed, except that now minorities and women can vote. People don't have to ride at the back of a bus, sexual freedom is gaining ground and, in general, this country has made social strides that were considered evil back then.

[omega minimo]

67. In between it did change.

You're flinging poo, don't seem serious. Skewed version of history, that. Slogans, not substance.

[omega minimo]

52. "How many people really saw where “Reaganism” was leading us? How many people really grasped..."

"How many people really saw where “Reaganism” was leading us? How many people really grasped the consequences of his policies?"

:hi:

[tom_paine]

78. More to the point: How many people realized the Bush Crime Family was in charge the whole time?

Not many.

Reagan was never really President - after they shot him, he was a befuddled puppet for the First Bush Imperium (1981-1992).

It is was the Dulles-Bush faction that "lead the charge" against the Kennedys.

Now the Bush-Cheney (or perhaps the Bush-Cheney-Rove) Faction which rules us, whether in or out of power.

[Last_Stand]

96. The bush crime family's tendrils are pervasive and long-reaching...n/t

[Greyhound]

79. Hi there.

:hi:

A "Street Kid" (before it became a euphemism for homeless) that was too smart for his own good saw this before I was even old enough to vote against it. Those days were when I first began hearing such idiocy as giving money to rich people so they could spend more discussed without a punchline.

It's like the whole nation just suddenly went stupid.

[omega minimo]

85. .

:hi:

[NICO9000]

59. 1980 was my first national election

I turned 18 in '77 and cast my first vote the next year for Jerry Brown in CA. Little did I know, I wouldn't vote for a winning candidate in CA or prez until Clinton in '92.

The only good thing about Raygun was he got me very engaged in politics and started to pay a lot more attention to what the hell was actually going on. Unfortunately, it's probably made me a lot unhappier than I would have been had I stayed an uniformed stoner kid. I don't want to believe the Sex Pistols were right, but being 50 and unemployed, I fear there may be "no future for me."

:(

[reggie the dog]

65. but tourists are money, and england's dreamin

[Change Happens]

64. No, but it is too big to fail, so we have to break it up...Texas can become its own country

VT can form a new independent Socialist Republic with President Sanders, I will move there.

California has to become independent, print its own currency to survive its fiscal problems.

Florida can merge with Cuba

:fistbump:

On and on...

[AlinPA]

74. Have you been watching cable "news" again?

[Kaleva]

75. When were the good old days?

During the Vietnam War and race riots?
Watergate?
The JFK, RFK, and MLK assassinations?
During the McCarthy Hearings?
When Jim Crow laws were in effect?
Before women were allowed to vote?
When the only good Indian was a dead Indian?
Before there was social security?

[swilton]

76. It is True that Reagan Started It

But a few DLCers - Clinton - with NAFTA and not reaping and applying the end of the Cold War dividend - drove a few nails in the coffin.

The end of the beginning was the failure of the Obama Administration to use the 2009 mandate (as reflected by votes in the electoral college and winning both legislative chambers) to change the direction we were/are headed in. His foreign (climate change, Middle East, imperialism) and domestic (health care, education), to bring about fundamental reform, or structural change to address ongoing (economic, military, health) or future (economic, military, health, environmental) crises is the clearest evidence that the pre-Reagan days of American grandeur whether imagined or real are now just history.

[anonymous171]

81. Global warming will not kill us all. It is just going to make everything a lot less comfortable. nt

[troubledamerican]

82. Dec. 12, 2000 -- R. I. P.

[L0oniX]

83. United Corporations of America

[Thothmes]

84. No. we will survive the Obama Presidency

[bridgit]

88. I think its more complex than that, and anyone that dealt with Reagan...

As we did here in CA, had a good idea of what a corporate dote he was. But until someone actually pushes back like they mean it; America will remain nothing more than a shifting Rorschach test open to free interpretation good, bad & ugly

Maybe not unlike so many things in life

[MadHound]

91. Back in 1988 I started predicting we were on the path to a revolution, civil war, or collapse

That would happen within fifty years. We're still on target for that number, and sadly we might just see all three come to pass.

[snooper2]

92. Bush is going to cancel the election ...

Over national security issues


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ipaint]

93. America exists.

But given the ever increasing gap between rich and poor, democracy is pretty much dead.

[pinto]

94. No, imho.

:hi:

[AngryAmish]

97. Hawaii is

It was destroyed by a tsunami a few weeks ago. I saw it on CNN.

[county worker]

98. Who here remembers the 1930's?

Corporations ruled, there was no social safety net, at least 15% unemployment, world war looming, a huge disparity between the haves and have nots, no national health insurance, no medicare, lots of racism and bigotry, you were pretty much on your own. There were many more things back then that are much worse than today.

Even in the 50's there was little social justice for minorities. When I got married in 1972 my wife was not permitted to have credit in her own name, she was forced to select from a few careers for women, she could not have had an abortion legally.

I could go on if I thought about it. The point is that we haven't slid backward so far that we can't move ahead in a progressive way.

Yes corporations are powerful and multinational and a very tough thing to fight, but fight we must. I'm sure not ready to throw in the towel.

My greatest wonder is why the tea party is in the streets making noise and we aren't?
I'm telling you that if you don't believe we are doomed then join a group that is working for positive change. If anything, at the very least your time will be spent with people in a much better frame of mind than some here.

I remember reading in a book about the migrant workers in Bakersfield, CA in the dust bowl days that the people did not talk to each other about how hard life was for them because it was equally as hard for everyone and no good came from talking about it. They looked for what ever gave them a little hope and comfort.
I think about that a lot when I read some of these posts.