Runaway Toyota Prius (it bugs me when people so quickly mock the driver as an idiot)

[CreekDog]

that is how many people made fun of the guy stuck in an out of control car or mock him as stupid, as if it were all his fault, even though:

1) Using the brakes
"Officer Neibert said he not only could smell the brakes from the Prius but also witnessed Sikes physically lifting his body to apply pressure on the brakes." http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local-beat/Runaway-Prius-Needs-Help-to-StopCHP-86965487.html

2) Putting it into neutral

Officer Todd Neibert told Sikes to try and put the vehicle in neutral and try to shut it off. Sikes shook his head in response which Neibert took to indicate that that was not successful. http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local-beat/Runaway-Prius-Needs-Help-to-StopCHP-86965487.html

and before you mock him for not being able to move it into neutral, it's not clear that would have worked...why? keep reading:

"One culprit in our confusion was the electronic automatic transmission, accessed via a stubby knob on the dashboard. Rather than slotting firmly into a drive, reverse or neutral position, this lever simply has to be slid momentarily up, down or across. The requested gear will engage, with a visual reminder on the dashboard, and on release the knob will simply spring back. This action felt odd to begin with but we quickly adjusted." http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/reviews/2214230/business-review-toyota-prius

3) Just turn the key -easy right? No.
"There is no conventional ignition switch which needs to be turned to start the Prius, that function having been replaced by a simple round "POWER" button on the dashboard. With the SKS models, the driver only needs to sit down inside the vehicle (with the fob in their possession), press the brake with their foot and push the "POWER" button to start the vehicle. On cars which are not equipped with SKS, the driver uses the lock/unlock buttons on the fob, and puts the remote fob into a slot in the dash to allow the car to start." http://wikicars.org/en/Toyota_Prius

4) Posters have said multiple systems failing is more likely to be operator error
"In general the car’s computerised controls work effortlessly. Most drivers will remain unaware that the throttle and brakes, for example, are drive-by-wire. You press the pedals normally, but the car’s computers decide what to do with the engine, electric motor, energy regeneration and brakes , depending on how urgently you use your feet."

Toyota Prius Dashboard:

[seabeyond]

1. i agree with it pissing you off with the snarky and arrogant comments

have read many on du....

[CreekDog]

4. playful or even sarcastic snark doesn't really bother me

but to seriously make fun of this guy when he's got a confusing drive-by-wire car with the often reported control problems --that just seems cruel and unfair to me.

i would not be as annoyed if the commenters hadn't so clearly *not driven* a Prius and not understood the difference in controls between it and a regular car.

[seabeyond]

16. the first thread i saw it on was the man with family in car and they called 911

to get help.

what? four people dead. some of the omments on that thread was amazingly disgusting.

[Dappleganger]

29. Agreed.

Sometimes I really wonder about some people on this forum.

[CreekDog]

42. I saw that thread too and yes, that was I awful

:grr:

[CoffeeCat]

64. I didn't know four people died...

...in a runaway Prius. Did that happen a while ago?

That is so tragic...beyond words.

[seabeyond]

71. it wasnt a prius. i didnt put brand in cause i dont remember if it was the toyota avalon maybe? or

lexus????

but yes, it was a while ago. not good remembering time frames... 6 months>?>>

it was such a sad story.

[tammywammy]

74. I believe it was a Lexus SUV n/t

[seabeyond]

86. thanks

i thought lexus, but that even seemed more off than avalon. appreciate info

[onehandle]

2. When the new Prius came out, my wife wanted one badly. We took one for a test drive.

Something about it simply did not feel right. It seemed to have control over the driver rather than vice-versa.

My wife was bummed and we bought her a used Subaru Baja instead. She loves her Baja.

[Hepburn]

3. About 5 years ago, I thought of getting a Prius...

...got a Honda CRV instead. Boy, am I glad about THAT choice!

[onehandle]

5. I have an Element.

Which is basically a CRV with big boxy body on it. It's been a great car. Built in Ohio.

[Hepburn]

6. Best cars I have EVER owned ~~ HONDA CRVs.

I am on my second one. I like the Element, too. Both are true SUVs -- a box on wheels.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. I got called a traitor to unions by another DUer for having an Element

Its a truly unique vehicle in the market today. Nothing else comparable. He insisted that Detroit iron is always better and that I clearly did not need it if Detroit did not build it. Haven't seen him around in some time.

I gave mine to my one of my daughters a while back, making do with motorcycles and my old beater ranch truck. Would love to see a plug in hybrid one some time in the future

[onehandle]

34. The Element community (there is one) has been screaming for a hybrid Element.

It is an obvious choice considering its demographic.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. It would be a sustantial investment for me, and the mileage would rival my motorcycles

Its almost as much fun to drive as well. Have to wait and see.

The only real complaint I had about Element was the mickey mouse trailer hitches available. I occasionally need to get 4*8 sheets of drywall, plywood etc. and have to use the beater truck.

[itsrobert]

37. Yup, you're a traitor

But have a nice day anyway.

[Shining Jack]

57. Sorry but I'm tired and my sarcasmometer is down.

You were being sarcastic,right? Well have a nice day any way you meant what you said.

[CreekDog]

61. Oh don't worry about that, it's just the IQ test

it means they're stupid. :think:

[divideandconquer]

77. Detroit/UAW is better for progressive prounion Americans

Now, if you favor destroying the American middleclass, buy from a our enemies, I'm sure they'll have Chinese cars at Walamrt very soon.

The Element is great for those who go homeless from losing their jobs to unfair foreign competition.

[Dappleganger]

14. We love our CRV! nt

[riderinthestorm]

26. We have a 1999 CRV. Had an accelerator problem immediately upon purchase.

At 65/70 the car's engine and RPM's would hit the max and rev like crazy. We had a lake house in Michigan (where the speed limit is 65) so we were going every weekend and it was pretty intense.

But we lived in Illinois where the speed limit is 55. The car wouldn't do it here. The dealer we bought it from fiddled with it once.

It happened again, the very next trip!

So at 1800 miles the dealer put in a new transmission (how much does that cost? You tell me. Lots I'll bet). The Illinois dealer couldn't legally test the car. Couldn't push it beyond the mph that would trigger the problem. But based upon our testimony, they replaced the freaking transmission!

I still own the CRV. It's got 215,000 miles now. Runs like a clock. Has had virtually no problems. And after dealing with our own acceleration problems and Honda's response, I'm sold. I will definitely buy another.

[Hekate]

53. I test drove a Prius and could not get used to the user interface AT ALL. It's vastly different.

And when I say "test drove" I mean that Mr. H and I had that thing on the road and at an empty parking lot for over an hour. We really wanted to give it a good chance.

Hekate

[NYC_SKP]

7. 75K miles on my Prius. I've owned Volvos and Jags, Jeeps and Diesel trucks, and more...

And my only complaints are that the seats are uncomfortable and the fuel gauge isn't calibrated very well.

I can fit 10 foot lengths of pipe or lumber in it, so rarely need a truck or van.

It's definitely an electronic animal, the controls are all electronic, steering, braking and other items traditionally powered mechanically or with hydraulic assist are electronically driven.

I love the keyless entry, navigation and bluetooth for cellphone use.

I haven't had misfortune of uncontrolled acceleration, but I'm sure I'd do all the things mentioned (parking and emergency brakes, neutral and reverse setting on shifter, power button off).

Given the presence of mind, I'd also try the "B" position (engine brake) on the shifter and try to engage then disengage the cruise control.

Maybe with cruise control "on" the decelerate lever would work.

:shrug:



:P

[Schema Thing]

8. Is there some reason that the car could not be put into neutral?

[NYC_SKP]

9. As with everything else, you can move the lever or push the button, but that only works...

...contingent upon the integrity of the circuitry and microprocessors and programming.

The only truly reliable mechanical not-dependent-upon-circuitry device is the emergency brake (left foot to the floor).

If, as some have suggested, it's associated with the cruise control (which has an accelerate lever), I wonder if using the cruise control to slow down wouldn't work in one of these emergencies.

[CreekDog]

11. if the computer allowed or responded

But it wasn't responding to the throttle, so I have my doubts.

[ljm2002]

15. I don't know about the Prius...

...but I do know that in my auto, some combinations of things don't work, such as turning the key to start the car, until you put the gear in the Park position. I say this only as an example: the more a car is controlled by electronics, the more these decisions are programmed into the controlling software. So maybe some programmer somewhere thought you would never want to put your car in neutral while the engine was over a certain RPM -- not thinking of it as a safety related decision. Anyway I am not suggesting that is what happened, just saying that a programmed system might have "features" that turn out to not be a good idea in situations where something has malfunctioned and the operator has to take corrective action. I am a big fan of the old-fashioned "manual override", where you can flip a switch and you can use mechanical controls.

[sendero]

24. The computer..

... controls the changing of gears, just like it controls the throttle.

To me, there is no reason for it to EVER refuse to go into neutral, but to some dumbass programmer, it might seem like shifting to neutral while the engine is racing would cause engine damage.

[defendandprotect]

31. Obviously, you'd also have to be thinking about flying thru the windshield at 90 mph!!

And what if you had kids in the car!!

Is there a manual foot brake in the Prius? I doubt it --

but could be dangerous to stop so abruptly???

[Hekate]

54. The only way you "stop so abruptly" is if you run into something. When you brake, it takes a long...

... distance to actually stop, which is the main reason the DMV and all driving instructors tell you to keep X number of car-lengths away from the car ahead of you and to never tailgate.

Hekate

[defendandprotect]

69. But what would happen on any car if you suddenly put on not the

regular brake but the emergency brake -- usually done with your foot?

The thing you put on when you park on a hill?

Are you talking about that brake? Wouldn't that be abrupt?

Also -- wouldn't suddenly turning off the engine also be dangerous?


Probably almost 15-20 years ago a friend of my husband - a co-worker --

was in an upstairs parking garage near work. They had a flight of stairs

to the cars. The friend had gotten to his car first. My husband was

walking to his car when the friend's car accelerated backwards, I think,

into the stairwell, straddling it. Fortunately no one was coming up the stairs!

American car --

[Liberal_in_LA]

10. wow... fancy computerised system seems to be detriment when car is speeding out of control

[harkadog]

12. He could have put it in neutral despite your efforts to excuse him.

He is either an idiot or is lying.

[tabatha]

17. How about panicked.

I have done some dumb things when panicked.

[harkadog]

20. He wasn't alone. He was being talked through it by a trooper.

When the trooper told him to put it into neutral he put the phone down. Hmmmm.

[tabatha]

35. Oh, please.

He said he was having difficult driving and holding the cell phone at the same time.
Maybe, it went like this: Trooper: Do such and such; Driver, OK, puts the phone down and does such and such.

[harkadog]

40. He said tonight on TV he didn't try and put it in neutral.

So that excuse just flew out the window.

[CreekDog]

46. Wow

just wow. :wtf:

[TorchTheWitch]

49. like most people he only has two arms

One on the steering wheel and one holding the phone. He'd need a third arm to shift without letting go of either the phone or the steering wheel. Or do you think he should have let go of the steering wheel instead of letting go of the phone?

Geez.

[DeschutesRiver]

59. That is exactly what he told the 911 operator on the call I just heard

she asked if he could put it into neutral - he said no. She asked again, and after a pause, he said (kind of out of breath) that he couldn't do it because he had to control the car. And then mentioned that he was going 90mph.

Dude sounded like a scared old guy - not yet unhinged, but really right in the middle of something that sucked big time.

[CreekDog]

72. he thinks anything that happens to people is what they deserve

or his post would indicate such. :banghead:

[CreekDog]

18. the OP is now aimed at you

Not that I expected to convince you -far from it. More like let you display your ignorance.

Others here will find your use of the term "idiot" rich with irony.

So I should at least thank you for that.

[harkadog]

19. I saw him on TV when they asked him that question

He looked down an deflected the answer. A true mark of someone who is lying.

[yodoobo]

62. I saw that and I agree

Anyone who has learned to detect liars knows that he was SCREAMING dishonesty. Not to mention his on the phone did not make sense.

he didn't want to put it neutral.

Toyota has a big problem on their hands, but this particular instance is manufactured by someone looking for attention and a paycheck.

[CreekDog]

73. your can detect liars 100% of the time

if they admit it, then you are vindicated and proven right.

for the rest, they are lying if they protest.

ok. :patriot:

[yodoobo]

80. Its your strawman.

make him dance.

[CreekDog]

81. but am i lying?

mr. expert. :rofl:

[Shell Beau]

21. Are you kidding me? I guess he felt like dying that day.

Really? I mean really?


ETA that looks like a tricky gear shift. Not quite like mine where, I just push up to get it in neutral. The only idiots are the ones who are denying this is a computer problem and those who made these lethal mistakes.

[harkadog]

39. You did see they caught ABC News today faking a video.

They were showing a Toyota racing out of control and it turned out it was at dead stop. A total fake to show there was a "problem". http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/08/report-abc-news-faked-at-least-one-part-of-runaway-toyota-repor/8

[defendandprotect]

70. Fake TV videos . . . what a surprise!!

Think I saw a few on 9/11 -- !!

[tammywammy]

75. "certainly doesn't stand as proof of anything being rigged"

From your link:

"The B-roll shot doesn't indicate anything conclusive one way or the other about the validity of the test and certainly doesn't stand as proof of anything being rigged."

[Schema Thing]

43. he didn't die.

and people do run scams you know.

there are going to be hundreds of people going for insurance money or lawsuit money from Toyota in the coming days weeks and months.

[TorchTheWitch]

50. without an injury there is no money

At most all Toyota will be required to do is fix his car. Whoopee. Who the hell drives like a speeding nut putting their lives and the lives of everyone else on the road around them at SERIOUS risk for insurance/lawsuit money that doesn't exist when they come out of the incident virtually unscathed?

[yodoobo]

63. That's easy

"Who the hell drives like a speeding nut putting their lives and the lives of everyone else"


I see people doing it everyday for free.

[Shell Beau]

60. I know he didn't die, but I don't automatically assume he did this on

purpose. Toyota is to blame.

[Lorien]

27. Enough with this judgemental Authoritarian BS

Truly. Enough.

[harkadog]

36. Look in the mirror with that comment

[Hekate]

55. Look at the dashboard pic in the OP, why don't you? Also, read the OP. nt

[liberal N proud]

13. A lot of back seat drivers on DU

It is hard to say what you would do in the same situation, panic and adrenaline can really effect ones behavior.

[Chemisse]

83. That is exactly right

It is far too easy to sit here in the comfort of our home/office and call somebody an idiot because he couldn't stop his runaway car.

Until you have been in that situation, you just don't know how hard it would be to control or stop or switch to neutral or whatever.

[dbt]

22. Certain websites have cadres who exist ONLY to mock.

They are somehow protected from obeying published rules. I'd tell you who they are, but that's against the rules.

:banghead:

[flvegan]

23. I believe the engagement into neutral is electronic as well.

Nothing like the old days.

I don't think for a moment the guy is an idiot. I think Toyota has major problems with their multiple computerized drive-by-wire systems.

[jmowreader]

51. The shift into Neutral is probably also RPM-sensitive

On many transmissions, if you try putting it in neutral with the engine wound out you might break something...so Toyota probably designed the car so it won't shift into neutral over a certain RPM--which you won't get to if you're going 90mph down the street with the throttle wide open.

[Canuckistanian]

25. I heard he was STANDING on the brakes with both feet

And the car was STILL not responding. Something's seriously wrong with the sensor and software response if it's really a drive-by-wire system.

Sounds like Steve Jobs was right. And all the re-engineering of the gas pedal linkage won't help that.

[Occulus]

38. The only thing all this tells me is that drive-by-wire is a bad, bad, bad, bad, idea.

It works for aircraft because the operators have had hundreds of hours of training and usually have ground support if something goes wrong (plus, it's a pretty big sky). It doesn't work for cars. It's a horrible idea, and we need to go back to purely mechanical throttle and braking systems before more people lose their lives.

[CreekDog]

47. Plus airplanes with fly by wire have *multiple* backup systems with their own computers

should this kind of thing happen.

[GA_ArmyVet]

85. All you really need to do is put a

engine kill switch in..a simple power disconnect..Remove the electricity and the vehicle stops..

[riderinthestorm]

28. I just posted upthread about my own Honda acceleration problem and how the dealer never mocked me.

In fact, they took it way seriously. Made major changes to the car based only upon my personal testimony.

Anyone who mocks someone in that position (dealing with a wildly accelerating car) hasn't truly been there.

[krawhitham]

30. he said on TV tonight he never tried to put it in neutral

He said he was not thinking clearly, he was too scared

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. Now that I would believe...That alone could explain much of his difficulty.

That alone could explain much of his difficulty.

[CreekDog]

76. no it doesn't explain "much" of his difficulty

if you are accepting that putting it into neutral will stop the out of control car, then you are granting that it has gone out of control in the first place. nevermind that the guy was burning up his brakes trying to stop it.

based on this evidence, "much" of the problem is due to an out of control car and his efforts to stop it did ultimately work.

but it's ridiculous that people somehow can accept that a car is going almost 100mph out of control and yet blame the driver when he tries to stop it but doesn't try every logical thing (at 100mph).

what he did in response is secondary to the cause.

i guess my frustration here is the heavy-handed judgement --and also that people who claim to be being logical making huge logical errors to the extent they say things like this.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

84. When people panic, they are much less likely to do things correctly

Its pretty basic and the guy was clearly in a panic.

Beyond that, I am making no judgments, including as to what really happened to the car, including why it was going so fast.

[CreekDog]

41. But the officer said he was "standing" on the brakes and he could smell the brakes

that should be enough to stop a properly functioning car...it wasn't.

based on that, everything but the guy being an idiot is on the table.

standing on burning brakes that the CHP could smell and not being able to slow the car down

anyone who concludes the guy is an idiot or anything like that is literally not examining the evidence fairly or honestly.

[Schema Thing]

44. too scared for a long 10 seconds? believable

too scared for miles and miles with a state trooper trying to help you after you freaking called 9/11?



absolute unmitigated bullshit.




there will be more of this.

[CreekDog]

48. more bullshit?

oh yes, but stop putting it in my thread, okay?

be a human being okay? :wtf:

[Shining Jack]

58. Well if you're impervious to fear and...

...can control your emotions better than a Buddhist monk,good for you but it's not the
case with us poor mortals.Adrenalin levels can't rise extremely high and get flushed
within a "long" 10 seconds for an average human being.If you can't fight or flight then the
brain get confused by all those contradictory hormonal signals.It's better known as panic.

[CoffeeCat]

65. This point is noted...

...but the car was still speeding out of control by itself--and the brakes
were not stopping it. Isn't that the problem?

I know you're not chastising this guy, but the fact that he didn't put it
in neutral doesn't address the problem.

What's wrong with people???

If he did put it in neutral and the car stopped--that still doesn't address the
central problem--that the car accelerates out of control to 90 mph and applying
the brakes does nothing.

We can be stuck on...he didn't do this or he didn't do that, all day long. The
car accelerated on its own and the brakes didn't work.

Truly bizarre.

[CreekDog]

79. You hit it on the head: people don't even realize they aren't thinking

they blame the guy for not putting it in neutral

but that wouldn't be needed if the car wasn't out of control in the first place.

therefore: not the guy's fault.

yes, it would have been helpful if the car *could have* been put in neutral, it would be helpful if i had a parachute after someone shoved me out of a plane, but if i hit the ground without one, it's not my fault if i was shoved.

think people, think! :rant: (not saying that to the person i'm replying to) :hi:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

45. problems: w/computer (Apple Wozniak), brakes, "neutral doesn't work", cruise control

There's several problems and reasons why the car might go berserk or be hard to stop:

2 Reports of Trouble in Stopping Priuses
New York Times -
Denis Poroy/Associated Press James Sikes stopped his 2008 Prius on Monday in California by applying the emergency brake and brake pedal simultaneously
...
But a man whose 2008 Prius raced along 30 miles of Interstate in California at up to 94 miles an hour before the police helped him stop it has insisted that the floor mat was not interfering.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/business/10toyota.html

Local woman on her Prius: Neutral doesn't work in this car
http://www.azfamily.com/news/Local-woman-on-her-Prius-Neutral-doesnt-work-in-this-car-87164762.html

Consumers Describe Sudden Acceleration Experiences
Could eyewitness accounts help lead to a cause?
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/03/toyota_account.html#ixzz0hkbI6ac7


Apple co-founder Wozniak: Reboot your Toyota Prius
Speaking on a panel at the RSA security conference in San Francisco, Wozniak said, "Everything today has a computer in it, so everything will fail." In the case of the Toyota Prius, of which he has purchased nine, Wozniak said he was able to induce the unintended acceleration problem with the cruise control feature, and used the brake to slow down his car.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503983_162-20000135-503983.html

Woz to Runaway Prius: I Know How You Feel
Apple cofounder has conducted experiments on his own Toyota
...
He thinks a computer glitch could be contributing to the sudden acceleration issues that have sparked a worldwide recall of the car.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/tech/Wozniak-My-Prius-Speeds-Up-On-Its-Own--87107692.html

[Fumesucker]

56. Woz used the brakes to slow his car..

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

Our focus here is not to question the validity of the “floor-mat” claims (some investigators have suggested that a faulty drive-by-wire system is to blame) but to present methods for coping with this heart-stopping situation and to investigate a Toyota’s relative performance during such an event. For our tests, we rounded up a disparate bunch: a V-6 Camry (a recalled vehicle), an Infiniti G37 convertible, and a hugely powerful 540-hp Roush Stage 3 Mustang.

Our tests were conducted at highway speeds, as the incident with the Lexus ES350 happened on an expressway, and in the lowest possible gear, as that's the worst-case scenario. Here is how to deal with a runaway car:

Hit the Brakes

Certainly the most natural reaction to a stuck-throttle emergency is to stomp on the brake pedal, possibly with both feet. And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D’s 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

<snip>

We included the powerful Roush Mustang to test—in the extreme—the theory that “brakes are stronger than the engine.” From 70 mph, the Roush’s brakes were still resolutely king even though a pinned throttle added 80 feet to its stopping distance. However, from 100 mph, it wasn’t clear from behind the wheel that the Mustang was going to stop. But after 903 feet—almost three times longer than normal—the 540-hp supercharged Roush finally did succumb, chugging to a stop in a puff of brake smoke.

[Renew Deal]

67. Wozniak's issue was with the 2010

And the 2010 is the only model recalled for that issue.

[Renew Deal]

66. Your post is 100% accurate

The "stick" is completely electronic. It's not mechanical. The only way to get it to go to neutral while in drive is to hold it in nuetral for a few seconds. There's no guarantee it will work if the system is malfunctioning.

Toyota told drivers to "stand on the breaks." Toyota told drivers to try to put it in neutral. Toyota also told drivers to hold down the power button for three seconds and the car should shut down.

[Stinky The Clown]

68. I recommend this post

[madmom]

78. Sure glad I drive a Jeep!

[Shining Jack]

82. Kick !