Ginny explains how the Prius works and why things like, "just turn the key off" aren't helpful.

[NYC_SKP]

Ginny drives a 2007 Prius with 75,000 miles, more or less, and all the options.

The Prius doesn't have a key, it has a button. With keyless entry, it doesn't even need a key.

The Prius doesn't have ordinary brakes or steering, these are electronically assisted (as the gasoline motor is sometimes not running at all)

The Prius has an electronic shifter with R, N, D, and B positions. "B" is for deceleration using the engine's compression.

You can move the shift lever all you want, but if the electronics don't feel like complying, you don't really know what might happen.

The Prius has front disc brakes and drum rear brakes and the front wheels use regenerative braking.

The Prius has a foot operated parking brake that could be used in an emergency but is inadequate for locking up the wheels in an emergency.

Any braking/steering attempts may be met with interference by the electronic anti-lock braking system.

The electronic cruise control is electronically tied to both the electronic accelerator and the electronically assisted braking system and, almost certainly, to the RNDB shift lever.

In short, when discussing what YOU would do in an unexpected acceleration event, please refrain from making comparisons to a 1967 Chevrolet Biscayne.



:donut:

[msongs]

1. yes Ginny would prefer to smash into a tree at 100 mph rather than offer helpful suggestions lol nt

[NYC_SKP]

3. "Turn the key off" would leave Ginny in the lurch. So would "Put it in Park". Bad info can kill.

Suggestions based on misunderstandings, suggestions that don't work, could actually KILL someone.

If someone is unfamiliar with the car, has borrowed or rented one, and remembers some worthless "tip" they read here and tries to do it, they could get hurt.

Bad information can be deadly.

:donut:

[liberal N proud]

2. That should slow down some of the backseat drivers

[NYC_SKP]

5. It's the only car that my Dad isn't a pain in the ass to drive with...

...he entertains himself with the navigation map, and I don't think he can see the MPH read-out from the passenger seat.

:P

[CreekDog]

24. You'd think so, but sadly...

take a look at my very similar thread and all the knuckleheads.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7881836

[liberal N proud]

29. How many people understand drive by wire?

one has to wonder with all the "experts" we have.

[xultar]

4. [phone] miilion trillion gazillion brazillion billion...ROFL

[sharp_stick]

6. I read that

you can shut the engine off by holding the button down for 3 seconds, is that the case? I've never driven a prius so I'm not sure. There must be a mechanism to shut the engine off isn't there?

Can you not brake at all without the engine running? That seems like something the NTSB would be all over if true.

[Bill219]

8. We just got a new 2010 last night...traded in our 2007

We made sure to get the documentation that the computer has been flashed.

We were told that the way to shut off the engine in case of an emergency is as follows:

select neutral and push and hold the start button for 3-5 seconds

[NYC_SKP]

19. Now THAT is something many people wouldn't try instinctively, but it makes sense!!!

Laptops and iPhones require holding the power button down for 3-4 seconds before anything happens.

I doubt that many of the victims have tried holding the button in long enough.

Congrats on the new ride.

I've read that they've improved the seats for comfort, true???

:P

[CreekDog]

25. doing that simulataneously takes two hands

what are you supposed to steer with?

besides putting it in neutral, the lever will go back on it's own (it's on a spring) so do you have to hold it there?

[Bigmack]

35. Right hand is good enough.. lever position pops back, but..

it stays in N. I've tried it at slow speeds.

Dunno if it will work at high speed, but I've practiced the maneuvers to shut her down if the runaway happens.

[CreekDog]

38. you're right of course

he should have searched the forums at DU with his smartphone and found a solution while he was driving.

my mistake.

Ok.

[Fumesucker]

40. Of course if the guy had read the fucking manual in the first place he would have known that..

RTFM, my spell check even recognizes the acronym.

[CreekDog]

42. only if he memorized it

and is an emergency feature supposed to require memorization?

:thumbdown:

[Fumesucker]

43. I knew that before this incident

And I've never even driven a Prius, much less read the manual.

[CreekDog]

44. so?

you knew it or memorized it.

if my mom gets into a Prius and it goes out of control and it's not intuitively obvious how to stop it, i don't really care what you "know".

[Fumesucker]

47. I read it once or twice on the thread about the runaway Lexus..

That was months ago and I remembered it..

No memorization required..

[Statistical]

48. However everyone should know how to operate a vehicle

and that includes emergency procedures.

Everyone should know how to put car in neutral.
Everyone should know how to turn it off (there are some emergencies where car in neutral is no good such as engine fire).

This doesn't remove Toyota's responsibility but it is negligent for anyone to drive something as powerful and with as much ability to cause death and destruction as a motor vehicle without reading manual.

[CreekDog]

50. everyone "should" but safety is not based on what everyone "should" know

safe engineering is more than just education --it's having consistent and intuitive controls that do what they are designed to do in any condition.

remember when some cars put their horns buttons on the turn signal stalk? people knew they were there (most did) but in an emergency people pounded on the steering wheel. can you really blame those drivers for pounding the steering wheel (where the horn usually is)? or can you blame unsafe/poor design that didn't take this instinct and decades of design into account?

same goes for Toyota and their unusual systems.

[Statistical]

51. How is shifting into neutral unique?

You slide the shifter towards the N. The same as on every automatic in America?

Toyota is responsible for having a car that malfunctions (accelerates when you don't want to). Regardless of the brand people should know how to operate their vehicle. Knowing how to shift the cars transmission is one of those basic pieces of knowledge that you simply should know. If you don't know you shouldn't be driving.

We take cars too much for granted because we are around them so long.

If someone doesn't read the manual for a firearm and shoots someone we wouldn't say the gun should be more obvious.
The owner has a responsibility for knowing have the firearm functions. Cars are no different than a firearm, or power tool, or any other potentially dangerous item.

[Fumesucker]

53. Safe engineering is also about not designing vehicles that will roll over during normal driving..

You know, like the SUVs that have killed thousands of people..

Swerving to avoid an obstacle, animal or person in the road is a normal part of driving, many SUVs will roll over in those circumstances due to faulty engineering..

[Statistical]

21. Brakes will work without engine but you lose power assist.

Much better to shift into neutral and brake (you keep power breaks and steering).

If that doesn't work backup plan would be press and hold start button until car shuts off. With engine off you should never pump breaks. There is only so much brake fluid in reserve cylinder. Once you deplete it.... it will be very difficult to stop fast. Push and hold brake applying firm pressure.

[uncle ray]

32. please be careful what advice you give.

because your understanding of the workings of a car is lacking. you've got the basics down pretty well of what to do, but your explanation as to why is completely wrong. the reason you don't pump the brakes when the engine is off is because most cars the brakes are boosted by vacuum created by the engine, without vacuum there is no boost, but there still is braking, it will be difficult but not near as difficult as braking against the engine. in a prius this is moot because the boost is electrically provided.

if you are on the brakes hard at high speed, the brake fluid in the calipers can overheat and boil/vaporize, if that happens then you are screwn. that is why it is important to get on the brakes hard and fast, if you only use moderate to sort-of-hard pressure and heat up the brakes, you will lose all braking capacity.

[NYC_SKP]

49. Not on a Prius, Statistical.

Never thought I'd live to see the day I would correct you on any matter, :P, but...

The power assist on the Prius is not dependent upon the engine, like most non-hybrid cars.

This is logical, as the car is often tooling around on battery only.

The Prius braking system does have power assist, but instead of the accumulator using engine generated vacuum, there is an electric pump:



:P

[Statistical]

52. I stand corrected and in hindsight it does make sense.

Still as a general rule I would recommend people attempt to put vehicle (any vehicle) in neutral first as that should work universally.
If the vehicle won't go into neutral then attempt to turn off the vehicle.

Nice supporting docs though. :)

[CoffeeCat]

7. Ginny makes a good point..

So many people are making suggestions about what someone should do when a Prius
accelerates and won't stop--when they have no idea how this car runs.

That's the world we live in today. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone gets
to read those opinions, no matter how ill-informed or ignorant they are.

[CreekDog]

26. I like how people are blaming the drivers for not being able to stop a malfunctioning car

as if the reason they are speeding wildly out of control is due to a perfectly running car.

[CoffeeCat]

28. I just made a comment about that on another thread...

I am shaking my head and wondering if people have truly gone mad.

Here's a guy who is careening down the highway at 90 mph with the
car accelerating on its own--and the brakes will not work.

People actually have the audacity to say, "Well! He should have
put it in neutral!! Why didn't he put it in neutral???"

As if this was somehow the central issue is the driver's response
and not the fact that the car accelerates on its own to 90 mph.
Many have reported this happening--including Steve Jobs.

His attempts to correct the problem are duly noted and they are part of
the story--but they are not at the core of this issue--that this car is
obviously DEFECTIVE and dangerous.

Let's use logic here, people.

[Fumesucker]

9. Woz has some advice for Ginny..

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503983_162-20000135-503983.html

Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak has a solution for Toyota's problem with alleged unintended acceleration. If your car is acting up and starts to speed up on its own, treat it like a misbehaving computer--shut it down and then reboot.

Speaking on a panel at the RSA security conference in San Francisco, Wozniak said, "Everything today has a computer in it, so everything will fail." In the case of the Toyota Prius, of which he has purchased nine, Wozniak said he was able to induce the unintended acceleration problem with the cruise control feature, and used the brake to slow down his car.


His perspective is that Toyota has a software problem, a kind of "little failure" familiar to those who work with computers. Cars are microprocessor-based devices, like computers, and have bugs and glitches that can cause major or minor problems.

However, Wozniak said that he believes Toyota vehicles are safe, and he will continue to buy them.


More at the link..

[NYC_SKP]

17. Ginny has suggested similar solutions in replies elsewhere.

Specifically, engaging the cruise control and then using the decelerate lever.

This, assuming pressing the power button on and off does not work, which would be the first thing she would try.

There's no way of knowing for sure what different people have tried, but I haven't seen using the cruise control suggested.

Woz makes sense.

:donut:

[Fumesucker]

20. Woz *induced* the sudden acceleration with the cruise..

And then used the brakes to slow the vehicle.

[Turbineguy]

10. Could the problem be

related to mutiplex wiring and somehow getting out of sync?

http://innovexpo.itee.uq.edu.au/1999/thesis/orourke/

[NYC_SKP]

31. Could be. Many discussions are criticizing firmware integrity. n/t

[Turbineguy]

41. It just occured to me.

If you took out the individual components for testing, you would never find the problem. Because the problem only occurs when the system is integrated and then only very rarely.

If the sync got off it could be conceivable that the engine control would read touching the brakes as a throttle up demand or something like that.

Years ago I was with a control system that used 50volts, 15volts and 5volts. Under the original configuration the system would multiplex so that the various voltages would switch and the devices using those voltages would switch in sync. It was a brilliant idea and saved tons of wiring, but in the end it was deemed unreliable and was replaced with 3 separate full time regulated voltage supplies.

[MineralMan]

11. Cars with electronically-controlled throttles, transmissions, and

push-button startup should have an EMERGENCY STOP button. It should be located away from the normal start button but prominently identified and bright red in color.

Pushing it would do two things: 1. It would put the throttle in the idle position. 2. It would shift the transmission to Neutral.

This would allow normal operation of the vehicle to slow down and steer.

Machine tools used in workplaces are required to have such a switch by OSHA. It must be immediately accessible and prominently displayed and labeled.

All electronically-controlled systems on large equipment should have such a switch. Period.

[LiberalArkie]

18. I think it should have a switch that kills the main power, Like an on/off would do,

But not a software solution, but a hardware one.

[Statistical]

22. Very good idea. It should also have a standized international symbol (for non-English) n/t.

Brakes should also always override gas pedal.

If I push brake and gas pedal both to the floor engine should idle. Brake should ALWAYS under ALL CIRCUMSTANCES override any other input.

[uncle ray]

33. i've been suggesting the same thing.

it is foolish to allow such machinery without a way to disable it in an emergency.

heck, i wouldn't even have a problem if it was a shielded aircraft switch as long as it was clearly labeled and easy to operated.

anybody who is concerned about this could have any competent stereo/alarm installer install a simple kill switch relatively cheaply.

[formercia]

12. That's how they do it in the Calvary

The crusty old Seargent, fed up with his jeep breaking down, pulls out his .45 and fires a round into the engine. A private turns to him and asks the reason for this strange behavior. The Sgt. replies: " In the Calvary, this is what we do when a horse goes lame."

[NYC_SKP]

27. Bill Mauldin...

Great cartoonist.



:thumbsup:

[formercia]

34. I have the book.

Great cartoons.

[TheDebbieDee]

13. Are you talking about this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7884995

[NYC_SKP]

15. LOL, Yeah, that would be ONE of the threads...

:P

I wish it was as simple as a 1967 Chevrolet Biscayne (my second or third car).

[sinkingfeeling]

14. Give me the 1967 Chevy and a 'kill switch'! I refuse to buy any car from any manufacturer

that is 'totally electronic'. My sister has a dumb-sh** Lexus that I'd blow up. You're driving down the road in sunny Florida and the stupid windshield wipers come on! Then when it starts pouring rain, they stay off! Same thing with the headlights. I don't want the car to decide when to turn them on and off and when to dim the brights.

[snooper2]

16. Prius has rear emergency/parking brakes that will lock up

try it..

"Any braking/steering attempts may be met with interference by the electronic traction control."

Traction control has nothing to do with steering, the steering is rack-and-pinion with power assist. Traction control simply limits amout of power to either of the front wheels when spinout begins. Also, traction control does jack shit when you hit the brakes. The anti-lock braking will kick in to limit wheel lockup (on edit some traction control systems are integrated with the anti-lock braking system; but the systems still has jack to do with a run-away car)

Get going down the road at 60 and slam the parking/E brake, rear wheels with those shitty drums will lock up...

Also, so people really know what the shifter does...

Section 2-1, "Driving Procedures/Alarms", pg.176, shows that all of the following behaviors will shift the car immediately into 'N':
1) Pressing 'P' while car is in motion
2) Attempting 'R' while car moving forward
3) Attempting 'D' while car moving backward

[NYC_SKP]

23. I don't think those steps are working for the victims of these events.

And you are correct, post should have read anti-lock brakes and not ETC.

But what the shifter "does" is jack shit if the firmware is fucked up or there are other issues, as indicated in the OP:

"You can move the shift lever all you want, but if the electronics don't feel like complying, you don't really know what might happen."

And it's a parking, not an emergency brake, as described in my manual. Others may differ.

And it might lock up the rear wheels but it won't stop the car in a great hurry, especially if the drive train is engaging the front wheels and accelerating.

We have different manuals, my page 176 discusses setting up the Bluetooth.

:donut:

[CreekDog]

46. what year is that manual from? and what year was the vehicle in question from?

how sure are you it is the same? the car has been through multiple generations by now.

[frylock]

30. why not try moving the shift lever just for shits and grins?!

really people, it's worth the effort at least. that guy here in san diego NEVER EVEN TRIED until the nice CHP officer coached him to do so.

and yes, i know it's easy to sit here and say "i'd do this or i'd do that," but you really should train yourself as to what you would do in an emergency situation. i carpool with a camry driver, and have acquainted myself with the shift pattern just in case i need to reach over and shift to N.

[NYC_SKP]

54. I think there may be a Darwinian effect at work here...

I don't think that it takes above average intelligence to think to try shifting to N.

I'm sad for all the victims of any malfunction, but for fuck sake, if they aren't trying more than pressing the brake, if they really think that there aren't other things to try, then I think some of these people ought not to drive at all.

What would they do if someone runs a light?

Do they watch their mirrors when stopped at an intersection? (I once pulled ahead and over as I watched someone behind me not stopping, and avoided a serious rear-ending from her).

Maybe some of us have become to reliant on technology, too complacent.

:shrug:

[waganupa]

36. Prius Key

We have a 2009 Prius. It does have a key and you cannot start the car without it. It has an electronic key just like all new cars. There is even a place to insert the key on the dashboard.

All this hype about the Prius is just plain silly. How many SUV'S have killed people? I'll tell you: 12,000 deaths due to roll-over accidents directly - yes that is directly - due to lousy design. And an SUV is more likely to kill the occupants of other vehicles it runs into. PBS has the details:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/etc/before.html
Driving any car is a risk. Deal with it or ride the bus - oops still a risk. Face it, life is a risk. So far 56 deaths in Toyotas - over 700,000 Prius cars sold. Given those facts, I have a far greater chance of being run into (and killed) by a person driving an SUV than I do having my Prius accelerate uncontrollably without the ability to stop it.

[Fumesucker]

37. +1

[NYC_SKP]

39. I agree. I'm happy with my Prius (knock on wood).

I'd buy another in a split second, especially now that they've improved the seats.

It does not have a key in the traditional sense, not in the sense that people who say, "just turn off the key" seem to think.

My key never leaves my pocket and only goes into the slot when I have the car serviced.

And, as you know, you cannot turn it when it's in the slot.

BTW, if you DO have an acceleration event, push the power button and hold it in for several seconds to shut down the system.

:toast:

[CreekDog]

45. we had one at work that I drove several times and i liked it too

i got gas mileage in the 60's driving back and forth to Sacramento with the A/C on.

i love the car, but i accept that it might have a problem and i think even if it isn't "proven" that they need some failsafe switch that requires little thought to engage.

you and i know to hold the power button for seconds to kill the motor, but it's turning out Toyota can't count on that for everybody.

[Gin]

55. who is this "Ginny?"

gin

[NYC_SKP]

56. Technically, it's "Virginia"...

My avatar, my pound puppy companion.



Hi Gin! :hi:

.