Question for the "put car in Neutral" crowd

[UndertheOcean]

Are you sure the transmission on those new fancy schamzy cars is not fly by wire also ? . Is the transmission stick connected mechanically to the Tranny ? or is it connected by a transducer to the computer that then controls the transmission .


I haven't found an answer for that.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

1. Why don't they

just kill the ignition?

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Wouldn't you lose the steering as the wheel would lock?

[Zywiec]

11. You must be young if you only remember power steering. n/t

[Fumesucker]

13. No, you lose power steering but that only is a problem at parking lot speeds..

I've never seen a car that could not have the engine turned off without locking the wheels.

[Better Today]

26. True, but it is a fine line from turning off the engine and locking the wheel, a fine click if you

will. My Mazda has four notches to the ignition key, one is off all the way where there wheel is locked, two is sort of the engine check stage where I cannot raise windows or listen to radio but the engine check, oil, and battery lights come on and the wheel is still locked, then there's notch three where I can do whatever but the car isn't started (also the position the key returns to after ignition), and finally the ignition step where the car is started but as soon as it is (or I let go of the key), it springs back to position three.

I do not know about these new hybrids, mine is standard ol' car.

[no_hypocrisy]

4. Dupe. Delete. Sorry.

[Xipe Totec]

7. It's also by wire

It is a push button that, when it works, you have to hold down firmly for three seconds in order to turn off the engine while the car is in motion.

Most people panic and keep jabbing it like an elevator button, so it does not work.

[liberal N proud]

8. Same reason

The computer may not allow it.

[CreekDog]

9. No key, no ignition to put it in --just a button

half the time the Prius is running it's engine is off anyway.

[Xithras]

18. Yep, here's a video of someone kiling a Prius at 75MPH. No issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N22LLJsChA

Just hold the button down and the engine stops. No wheel lock, no loss of control, just a very rapid deceleration.

[Jane Austin]

29. Thank you so much for that video!

I had been told to do that, but the video is crystal clear.

[ManiacJoe]

24. Not possible in some of the newer cars.

Some cars, like the Prius, have a "start" button. If the computer chooses to ignore your input because "it knows better than you", you are out of luck.

Also, the shift stick on the Prius is an input into the computer, too, from what I have read.

[FSogol]

2. It is mechanical. You can put any car in Neutral and push it with the engine off, right? n/t

[UndertheOcean]

5. Well , I know that , but I never owned a car newer than 2000 so I was wondering about newer cars

[CreekDog]

12. how do you know it's mechanical?

i'm asking how you know it's mechanical when in fact the lever is NOT mechanical.

and why are you so sure?

:shrug:

[nebenaube]

16. nope...n/t

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

22. The prius has a computer controlled CVT. The shifter is likely NOT a mech-linkage.

[CreekDog]

6. Fly by wire transmission

a playstation joystick gives more feedback than a Prius transmission shift lever.

[FiveGoodMen]

10. I don't know the answer, but ...

IF the car is designed so that the...

1) Brakes don't work, (in any decent design, hitting the brakes would cut the accelerator just like they do for cruise control)

2) Shift won't go into neutral, and

3) Ignition can't be turned off

...all because of one malfunction, then everyone who approved that design should be held criminally responsible.

There's no excuse whatsoever for eliminating all backup safety systems.

[Ian David]

14. Rolling down the windows all the way slows a prius down to 15 MPH.

Okay, I made that up.

[RKP5637]

21. Dragging your foot out the door too! LOL n/t

[pipi_k]

23. YabbaDabbaDoo!!!!! n/t

:7

[EOTE]

15. Planes tend to have fly-by-wire systems. Cars tend to have drive-by-wire systems.

If you find yourself in a fly-by-wire car, I'd get out as soon as possible, if the altitude will allow for it. As for drive by wire transmissions, yes, some cars with electric engines also have electronically controlled transmissions.

[harkadog]

17. I am part of the put it in neutral crowd.

The cop who was there told him to put it in neutral. If you have heard the audio you know that at that point the driver put down the phone and ignored the cop. He later admitted on TV he did not try and put the car into neutral.

[Supersedeas]

32. shhhh.....

[cutlassmama]

41. Sounds like he is too stupid to drive

[Trillo]

19. Well, I'm not in that "put it in neutral" group, but

it appears the Prius has an computer (ECU) that controls the transmission.

Here's one http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/prius-main-forum/8554d1207954383-set-gear-park-while-traffic-light-p112h0.pdf">PDF that makes such a claim.

I don't mean to pile on Toyota right now, as I would guess most manufacturers have similar systems. If a vehicle is mostly electronic and driven by electric motor(s), my personal instinct would be to put a physical KILL Switch in series to the electric motor, and mount the switch, with the necessary wires, somewhere on the dash or within easy reaching distance (if the brakes on such a system were also electro-magnetic instead of friction, it wouldn't seem to work). While it might still seem "fly by wire", at least the Human is in control of the wire, instead of some computer that may be malfunctioning.

Having the a black box computer that controls everything is not that great of an idea, except for directing profits. Open source is the best way to go.... Then, if there are any issues/problems, there are lots of monkeys around to tinker and offer fixes.

[Schema Thing]

27. Kill switch and/or a disengage switch.

I'm amazed to learn that there is no mechanical over-ride for just these sorts of problems.

Of course you *should* put the car in neutral the second you realize you don't have control of acceleration. But theoretically, the same problem causing the acceleration could also cause your shifter to not work also, since it is electronically controlled.

My transmission expert neighbor says the industry thinks the problem is AC (as in electrical current) interference.

[Trillo]

33. My current method is to depress the cable-operated clutch.

Even though it's more work around town to drive, I like that kind of "manual" control.

I saw in that PDF an illustration that pointed to an "Inverter", which typically would change AC to DC, suggesting their electric generator is an alternator design.

[RKP5637]

20. And why I drive an older car that gets good mpg. Mint 96 Lincoln. Simpler and real linkage. And

high reliability. 19 mpg city, 30 mpg country with cruise on. 5* reliability.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

25. You know, the brakes should be able to overpower the moter on almost ANY car.

I beleive Car & Driver tested this. That most cars brakes were able to overcome full throttle.
Even with powerful sports cars like Rouch Mustang's, the brakes were able to defeat the throttle.
I can't imagine a Prius would stand any chance with hard brake pressure.

I know on my 375HP car, the brakes win.

[ThomWV]

28. It will go into neutral, but it won't go into Park or Reverse.

What will happen is the engine will rev wildly, until the valves float. Then one of two things will happen. If the valves are designed such that when they float they contact the piston tops, then its gonna get very expensive very fast. On the other hand if the valves do not hit the pistons all its going to do is sputter like hell until you can get the car stopped, then shut the ignition off. Problem with shutting the ignition off with the car moving is that the steering will lock, an awfully bad thing.

[izzybeans]

30. We aren't supposed to talk about Ann Coulter like that.

:hide:

[thereismore]

31. I have a bad feeling about this incident in San Diego. 20 minutes of not stopping?

The guy did not try to put it in neutral. I smell a rat.

[frylock]

34. the guy in san diego eventually put his car in neutral..

after being coached by CHP to do so. it worked.

[elocs]

35. I know on my car, a 2006 Scion xA made by Toyota, I'd put it in neutral.

Not a fancy schmancy car, but when this problem came up I looked to see what I would do. I think that many people did the same thing on their cars, no matter what the model or age. I would have thought the guy with the runaway Prius would have done the same thing regardless of what he had been told by the Toyota dealer so he would at least be informed and not panic. I know if I had a Prius, even if it had no problem, I would know what to do if its accelerator stuck.

[WVRICK13]

36. Can I Make A Suggestion?

If it is a software problem Toyota may not be the only brand affected. All of our cars could be time bombs waiting for the proper or in this case the horrible sequence of commands to create a similar problem. I took my car into a large empty area of a parking lot and turned the key to the first click and the engine died, I still had steering and brakes but they required more effort to use. At least I now know how to handle a situation if my car suddenly accelerates. Maybe we should all take the time to learn a simple safety measure for our own brand of car. DO NOT put the car in park, do not take the key from the ignition (that triggers the steering lock for lots of vehicles), and do not test near people or other vehicles. I also found out I can be revving the car and put it in neutral and it disengages the drive train allowing me to coast and use the brakes. I have a car with a CVT. Your results may differ from mine and I make no claim of safety or recommendations to try the same procedures I tried (gotta cover the ass for legal action). You have to use your own common sense and be careful.

[apples and oranges]

37. maybe we should all practice in an empty parking lot

[sendero]

38. The shift controls..

... on many late model cars are indeed all electronic.

It is true that some cars will not let you put the car in neutral in certain conditions.

[DemoTex]

39. Pop the 'chute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWj_YtW9mmg

[Mopar151]

40. Thanks for the common sense!

And real information - like the control system schematic PDF. The tinfoil hat squad is in full voice in other threads on this subject.