Some Pro-Mandate People Have Gone too Far

[20score]

The latest was Markos Moulitsas, whom I usually like, claiming that Dennis Kucinich deserves a primary challenge. He went so far as to say, “I’m going to hold people like Dennis Kucinich responsible for the forty-thousand Americans that die each year.” Inexcusable hyperbole. It is very reminiscent of the pro war arguments of 2002 and 2003. If not in substance, at least in form. People like Kucinich have been coming up with cogent arguments against the mandate, and reasons why we need actual health care reform that includes a Medicare expansion or a real public option, with the ability to compete with the insurance companies - and the response has been insults and platitudes.

Of course this bad bill, which even supporters like Moulitsas admit is “not perfect” will not be fixed at a later date. It has never been explained how this fix will come about. When the bill has become worse with each passing month and the popularity of the Democrats and the bill has dropped with each concession to the insurance industry, just how is this bill going to be improved with less energy from the populous and less Democrats in congress? Just like NAFTA and TARP were improved? Not buying because it’s not true.

Up until a few months ago, the public option was one of the central tenets of health care reform. Now, once it became obvious to all that Obama had no intention of fighting for it, even looking like he had been fighting against the public option, supporters started insulting those who point out obvious flaws by claiming the ones who object are unrealistic or crybabies. That they “don’t understand how politics works.” Actually, they do. Better than most - by a long shot. We are losing, or have lost our best shot at real reform, something almost everyone else in the world takes for granted, (at least in the industrialized world) not because some want to hold out for desperately needed reform, but because others are willing to sell out our principles for a few minor improvements. Are there still going to be many going bankrupt, many worse off financially, and many still dying for lack of insurance? I still agree with candidate Obama, forcing people to buy into a broken system is not reform.

For some time now people have been claiming that only an idiot would not understand that this is the best we can get. And for the same amount of time I have been asking these people to come up with proof they had always held this opinion. So far no takers. During the summer we had the right-wing fighting against phantom provisions like death panels, social Nazism and killing grandma. Ludicrous positions held by the gullible. And the left went out to fight for the betterment of the country and against the lies. Only now it seems like both sides were fighting for nonexistent provisions and easily sold out ideals.

The public option or a Medicare expansion has been continuously popular, not only with the left, but with the country as a whole. For that reason this bill is not only bad policy, it is bad politics. It is very hard to understand why people in power would indulge in such obvious self destructive behavior, but it is certainly not the first time. And no matter how often or loudly those that are on the side of the current bill insist it is the left who will be responsible for fallout that will surely happen, there is no doubt that it is the ones pushing the unpopular legislation that will be at fault. Just like it did for the Republicans before, reality will catch up. It always does.


When Moulitsas was asked how Dennis Kucinch’s position was viewed by the left-wing on the internet, he avoided the question and simply attacked by claiming the congressman’s approach was a “Naderesque.” He also claimed, against all logic and decency that his position was no different than the Republicans position. To make the claim that there is no difference between people who are proud of their greed and refuse on principle to help follow their countryman and those who trying their best to help everyone they can, is dishonest, and frankly reprehensible.







http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/obama-overrides-aide-on-health-insurance-public-option/


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/19/AR2009101902451.html


http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=5ba17aa2-f1b9-4445-a6b8-62b9d1ba8693

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. This hits the nail on the head

thanks for posting it. K&R

[Hello_Kitty]

2. The dirty fucking hippies will blamed no matter what happens.

If the bill doesn't pass, it'll be our fault.

If the bill passes and Americans hate it (they will), it'll be the DFH's who get blamed for not fighting hard enough for the popular provisions.

[Echo In Light]

13. Zing! Nailed it

[Mithreal]

25. +1

[Ignis]

41. THIS

[20score]

55. Yep, just like they lost the Viet Nam War.

[glitch]

66. DLC, that's how they roll. nt

[closeupready]

85. Peace Freaks, you mean. The Peace Freaks will be blamed.

Somehow.

[Oregone]

3. Kucinich is the powerful evil mastermind behind the entire right wing

He makes Nader look like Frodo

[Mithreal]

26. .

:thumbsup:

[Autumn]

4. K/R

:kick: I agree with you. What they are working on passing will stay as it is, and that will be it.

[DrDan]

6. yep

[dflprincess]

5. What I can't figure out is

if this scam is the "best" that could be done with the majorities the Democrats have now, how will they ever manage to get any "fixes" passed?

:shrug:

[Hello_Kitty]

8. In Magical Future Fairy Dust Land, anything is possible.

My personal favorite mandate howler is the one where they claim that if this HCR is hated by the American people, they will pressure politicians for single payer. Which the insurance cos. will allow to happen. It's truly :crazy: but I've seen the claim more than once.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. If they hate the mandate, they're going to blame the Democrats

The Republicans actually think this bill is just fine (hey, corporate welfare!), but they know that mandated private insurance with no controls on costs is going to be unpopular, ESPECIALLY if the IRS fines people for not getting coverage (because your average American's favorite government agency is the IRS, right?).

This Republican "opposition" is their way of shielding themselves from the public anger that is sure to follow when people start getting the bills for their compulsory insurance AND realize that they still can't afford actual CARE.

Then the Republicans will say, "We never voted for it."

If the Disney cartoon Song of the South weren't being withheld from release due to accusations of racism, more younger DUers would recognize this quote, "Oh, no, B'rer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into that briar patch!"

[Jackpine Radical]

64. The Republicans pulled this same move with the bank bailout.

Positioned themselves as being against something they and their fatcat friends desperately wanted, sticking the Dems with the blame for the whole match.

The world needs more of us DFH's.

[gulfcoastliberal]

69. +1... Amazing that Obama & the dem congress are about to make the most radical RW agenda

a reality. Destroying medicare & social security, destroying public schools & the teachers union via charter schools, etc... and the RW can say they didn't vote for them. Remarkable... K&R

[inna]

156. Exactly.

:(

[Raksha]

158. You're right...

but the whole scam is getting just a little bit too obvious. We've all seen "please don't throw me in the briar patch" too many times. You'd think that would have them worried, if nothing else.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. Good point!

If this is the best they can do with 59 votes in the Senate, then we can expect only worse when there are fewer of them.

I am so sick of being told that things (health care, withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan, repeal of the Patriot Act, reinstatement of Glass-Steagall, repeal of the Telecommunications Act, etc.) will be better when some later event happens:

"Wait till we regain control of the Senate."

"Wait till we regain control of the House."

"Yeah, we have Congress, but we can't do anything because there isn't a Democrat in the White House."

"Sorry, doing the right thing (about health care, war, civil rights, the financial industry) is not politically feasible."

[Hell Hath No Fury]

20. You are assuming they actually WANT fixes.

Think about that. Deeply.

[dflprincess]

67. No I'm not

I don't think they're interested in doing anything at all except protecting the insurance companies.

The "fix" was in with the insurance scam they're trying to foist on us.

[Foo Fighter]

71. Exactly.

The Dems use "bipartisanship" as a cover so they can continue to cater to their corporate masters while pretending to be "working with the opposition to get things done for the American people."

[Mithreal]

27. The propagators of that one have exposed the weakness of their position, no doubt about that.

Thanks for spotlighting.

[Moochy]

77. Right After Charlie Brown kicks the football

thats when the PO will be added.

[liberation]

83. Bingo!

You nailed in the head the fallacy of the argument passed by the ones trying to enable this piece of crap. The whole "trust me it will get fixed" is almost laughable when one reviews the track record of the past 3 decades (And even further than that):

Remember, trickle down was supposed to make all of us richer. The New World Order after Gulf War 1 was supposed to make us safer. NAFTA was supposed to create tons of jobs in America. Tax cuts for the rich were supposed to be the best antidote for recessions. Deregulation was supposed to increase competitiveness and drive down prices. Allowing Wall Street to operate with carte blanche was supposed to be a fantastic way of growing the economy. And on and on....

So if you look at any of the promises regarding some of the major pieces of legislation/policies which have shaped this country during the past 3 decades, the exact opposite of what the pols claimed passed to be.

What it is starting to get really annoying is the condescension tone of the DLC and moderate types against the lefties, you know the "militant liberals" who have been proved right time and time again. It is now to the point of being galling when those perennially wrong feel entitled to have their word taken at face value, while those who have been proven correct over and over again are dismissed and have to jump through all sort of arbitrary hoops in order to have our opinions heard.


I think some of this people are in such denial, that they most likely buy their cars by approaching the salesman with an offer higher than the sticker price, and assume that the salesman is somehow going to cut them a better deal. And assuming "denial" is the best case scenario I can think of, because all indications tend to point towards plain old dishonesty as what is driving them to justify the unjustifiable.

[kenfrequed]

126. It is difficult.

To be proven right in terms of policy again and again and then to have the DLC dems, who seem to have captured the television token pundit democrat positions, spew the same generalized "conventional wisdom" lies angers me a good deal. The media won't cover the progressive majority and Rachel Maddow and Olbermann can only accomplish so much on a daily basis.

[liberation]

140. True

I never claimed it would be easy or it is supposed to be easy.

It is just that it gets really annoying, when the DLC who are the ones perennially siding with the GOP and proactively attempting to undermine any piece of legislation remotely liberal... are the ones who feel entitled to the support of liberals for their platform through thick and thin. As reflected by some posters in this site who are trying to pass "it is what it is and there is nothing you can or should do about it" as what Obama's campaign meant by "hope and change."

[jeff47]

125. The theory is

The theory is that once the crappy bill is enacted and popular, it will be easier to tweak.

For example, high premiums in the exchanges would make it easier to get Medicare buy-in passed.

The flaw in this theory is the "and popular" part. This bill won't be popular because there aren't enough good parts that people will see in their everyday life. For example, nobody expects their insurance company to arbitrarily dump them if they get sick, so the portions of the law banning that practice won't be noticed. Pre-existing conditions are a completely arbitrary concept, so their disappearance will only be noticed by policy wonks. What people will notice is the mandate and the minimal-to-non-existent cost controls.

It'll result in a bill like MA's system, where nobody particularly likes it, but at the same time nobody wants to repeal it. That ground isn't any more fertile for improvements.

[liberation]

142. Yes

And at the very basic level, that whole "pass something so awful which may force people to demand a public option or single payer" is at a very basic level black mail.

And that is a pattern by some parts of the Dem party and its platform. Who seem to use black mail ("vote for us or the GOP get in and if you think we are bad... wait until you see what the GOP has in store for you") as their main electoral value proposition. That stinks, and it is an intellectually dishonest approach to justify the whole "having to chose between the least of two evils" that the political system in this country has devolved into. The injury is further compounded by the insult which is the fact that those who are fighting to keep and maintain the status quo, are the ones who wrap themselves with the banner of "hope and change."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. Yes, we point out serious problems with the legislation, and we're told

that we want people to die, that we think Obama can just wave a magic wand, that single-payer and even public option are "not politically feasible" (Clue: It's "not politically feasible" because too many Congresscritters have been bribed to work against it), and that we should be delighted to continue paying thousands of dollars a year for nothing just so a person with a pre-existing condition can pay $700 a month for high-deductible insurance instead of $2000 (never mind that for many people, $700 a month may as well be $2000).

[Oregone]

11. Thats called playing political football with lives you pretend to care about

Is a bit disgusting that people throw statistical numbers at you to make you look like a Nazi

[dflprincess]

12. I'd like to get a count of all the Congresscritters who have said

"I like single payer, but it's not possible we don't have the votes."

I'd bet we'd come a lot closer to having the votes if all the ones saying something like this actually did support single payer.

[Foo Fighter]

76. Good idea.

I'm sure every one of them will be saying that when they're up for re-election. They'll blame the Republicans for blocking it but that's a hard sell because a.) single payer was never even remotely considered and b.) with the Dem majorities, there's no excuse for not bringing a single payer bill to the floor. Well, except of course that doing so would piss off their corporate masters and hey, we can't have that now, can we?

[JoeyT]

53. I do think he has a magic wand.

Remember the one they used to force everyone to vote for the military spending bills even if they thought it was a bad idea?
Tell him to use that one.

[PVnRT]

127. YOU WILL DO AS YOU ARE TOLD

Else, you will be mocked with pointless strawmen and personal attacks. It's part of the New Way (tm).

[truedelphi]

9. if this Congress and this President were responsible for the Civil Rights Act of 1965

We would have had a ground breaking piece of legislation that guaranteed that people of color had a right to not be lynched as long as they paid a monthly protection fee.

With work arounds for any segregationists that thought that that was going too far. (As long as those segregationists were able to make huge campaign donations, of course.)

[laughingliberal]

22. That nailed it! nt

[Donnachaidh]

50. ohh snap!

:wow: :rofl: :wow:

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truedelphi]

110. "the Lynching Reform Act"-- I am luv-ving it! n/t

[Foo Fighter]

79. Those not willing to pay the fee

would have to pay for the rope that was going to be used to lynch them.

[liberation]

88. LOL indeed. So it is safe to assume if the current Dems had been part of the Continental Congress...

... we would not only still be part of the British Empire. But we would be paying a monthly fee on top of our taxes for the privilege of being part of the common wealth.

Of course, there would be plenty of people crooning about the positive aspects of the legislation: for example the cap on how many times the red coats could sleep with our wives, and a reduction in the daily quota our kids are required to sign Britannia Ruler of the Seas.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

111. That is really good!

[stranger81]

147. Exactly right. [n/t]

[elehhhhna]

14. markos always gave me the willies.

[Mithreal]

28. I think he was looking to put a shark to work, hardly persuasive.

[sabrina 1]

56. You and a lot of other people n/t

[Moochy]

78. He has a face for the internet

:+

[Foo Fighter]

80. I'm with you.

I've always considered him to be a bogus, paid-for shill masquerading as a progressive.

[Hannah Bell]

15. markos = scion of a wealthy salvadoran family linked to death squads & polluting industries & an

intel operative.

you didn't believe that cornball story about how he started up his little website from nothing, did you?

[truedelphi]

21. Is there a source for this information?

I know if I tell friends of mine who like him, they will ask me for a source.

[Hannah Bell]

23. Google: Markos Moulitsas Zúñiga

Start here:

http://www.myleftwing.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=17649

http://www.bajasaltgroup.com/

http://www.hoteles-elsalvador.com/index.php?lang=es&articulo=17

http://francislholland.blogspot.com/2007/07/indictment-of-markos-alberto-moulitsas.html

[truedelphi]

51. I knew none of that - but it always did seem too coincidental that

A Berkeley Calif. boy just wanted to do good, and became an overnight commentator with tens of thousands of followers.

And that even RW TV media people had him on their shows.

But the most important thing ever for the Powers that Be is to have someone on hand who will destroy any moderate Progressive leaders. Others are totally left alone - as long as they are not Progressive. Palin gets left alone and is now a demi goddess of top celebrity status. The Tea Baggers are given endless support by the media.

But DK has to be torn apart and vilified.

[Jackpine Radical]

65. Dennis is dangerous.

[John Q. Citizen]

75. Yep. He stood up to the banks and the privateers back in Cleveland and won. So they

banished him but he returned to haunt them.

Dennis Kucinich is a good, honest and determined man who isn't afraid, and that's always dangerous.

[Javaman]

119. Yeah, because he speaks the truth. can't have that in our fear everything society! nt

[RoccoR5955]

154. Dennis is dangerous if you are a RepucliCON only! n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

155. Dennis is also dangerous to Blue Dogs who want everyone to shuddup and pass Health Care

Deform with no public option and no Single-Payer nonsense.

[RoccoR5955]

61. So Markos IS a CIA plant.

I thought so. Something about him didn't ring true with me. I couldn't put my finger on it, but there is just something about him.

Now I know. Thanks so much for that information!

[punkin87]

17. They were at 59 senators for Medicare expansion, now they don't have

50!! Bull.

knr!

[Mithreal]

29. Is odd, no? Keep putting that out there.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

122. Shhh.

Loose lips sink ships!

[Sebastian Doyle]

18. "It is very reminiscent of the pro war arguments of 2002 and 2003"

Indeed it is. And it's probably because the same people are writing the talking points.

[truedelphi]

24. Many here won't believe it. but Obama even gave Kissinger a position inside the WH.

[Mithreal]

30. That's the New Kissinger. He is reformed.

[rpannier]

39. Kissinger 2.0

Come on. Be fair. Kissinger is a great guy.
He has to be...
The word KISS is in his name.
Like the rock band.

[upi402]

31. Kissinger met the Russians, not Hillary?

Isn't this guy a convicted war criminal by now?

" If the White House did not send Kissinger, but Kissinger is organizing a meeting between Presidents Obama and Medvedev, who is really running the White House and why is Kissinger discussing U.S. foreign policy with the leaders of Russia? "
http://www.bollyn.com/is-henry-kissinger-setting-obamas-foreign-policy

wtf

[truedelphi]

46. Funny that after all the years of political scholars explaining this stuff, an ol'

Rock and Roll band, The Who, still says it best:

"Meet the new boss --the same as the old boss."

[pundaint]

101. but they were wrong about that not getting fooled again stuff

[mrdmk]

134. No Kidding, ain't that a load!!!

Hey maybe Kissinger will bring back Pinochet back from the grave and insert him into the Kremlin. Just think, Russia can transform from a pseudo socialist country (dictatorship granting favors is a better description) into a fascist free market economy just like Chile.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

19. There it is.

Bad policy and BAD POLITICS.

Some here act as if we who are critical of this bill hate Obama or want him to fail.

BULLSHIT.

I want a good bill not only because it is the right thing to do and the American people deserve it, but because I want O and the Democrats to succeed.

This is our shot to get it right. This is it. Anyone who thinks we are going to revisit it anytime soon -- especially when we take a hit in the midterms -- is just smokin' some seriously evil weed.

[Mithreal]

32. The TBTF corporations really don't expect to take a hit in the midterms.

Doesn't really matter to them which party wins.

I know I am not alone in my suspicions, Third Way'ers really don't give a damn if the majorities take hits.

"You don't have to believe us. Just listen to the way the Democrats themselves are talking. Nancy Pelosi concedes that they will likely suffer substantial losses in the House come November, though she still will not admit that they will lose their majority in the next round. Barack Obama says doesn't "know" how his ever more determined push of the universally despised Senate health care scam will play politically. He doesn't know??? Was the loss of the eternally Democratic senate seat in Massachusetts not enough of a wake up call?

Their original plan, which we told you about no later than last September (and we have a published article at the time to prove it), was to lull the liberal/progressive base into thinking a "public option" was some kind of mumbling substitute for a single payer reform system (that would have represented REAL change), with the INTENTION of throwing even that option over the side before final passage. We saw it all coming, and we tried to warn you how important it was to keep speaking out to demand better."

http://www.democrats.com/democratic-partys-plan-throw-next-couple-elections

[Hell Hath No Fury]

34. I read that article.

Completely depressing. And completely plausable.

[Mithreal]

37. Definitely.

[pundaint]

103. I hear a lot of talk about we warned you not to let up. I didn't, and my reading

here makes me think others didn't. Is there any record of congressional or white house contacts made?

I think the White House has the same respect for our words as I now do for theirs.

[Mithreal]

106. I don't know.

There are grassroots organizations that keep a record of contacts but like a central one for data from the WH, I just don't know. If you aren't already, get involved with DFA and PDA.

I wish I could share the sentiment in your last sentence.

[pundaint]

131. Let me clarify, I have zero respect for WH words, I believe only actions after a lie.

[Mithreal]

137. Understood.

[neuvocat]

33. You miss the forest for the trees.

Even without a public option there still are provisions to curb abuses by the health care industry. Public Option or not, Kucinich would vote against reform.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. He's ONE person

Your beloved bill is likely to pass without him.

Why the rancor?

We are defending him because he's one of the few public figures who is saying what a lot of us who have studied the question are thinking.

[Mithreal]

38. Health insurance you cannot afford to use is not health care.

Keep them honest, am I right? That's your argument?

Yes, you clearly know his position. :sarcasm:

See, I don't want to curb abuses, I want to end abuses. The American people do too.

"curb abuses" lmfao

[rpannier]

40. Curb abuses

Like curbing your dog.

The dog still leaves their urine or crap there

[Mithreal]

42. I love that "You Better Be Nice to America or We'll Bring Democracy to your Country!"

Seattle am1090 uses it pretty regularly, it's painful.

[rpannier]

44. Not half as painful as it is for the people of the country we bring it to

[Mithreal]

45. .

Ouch. Yes, indeed.

[truedelphi]

47. And what pray tell would those provisions to prevent abuses be exactly ? n/t?

[pundaint]

105. Why "They'll be watching, and evaluating," of course. And if the insurance

companies continue their 50-plus year pattern of abuse we will consider Reform late in Obama's 3rd term.

[truedelphi]

108. Oh,yeah, the old watching and evaluating phenomena.

Late last year, after a whole lot of watching and evaluating, Obama went out and scolded the Banksters about how they didn't quite manage to lend any of the Trillions lent them back to us.

It was such an effective ploy, it had totally slipped my mind.:sarcasm:

[pattmarty]

117. AND, you can prove that outrageous statement, HOW?????????

[pundaint]

132. Viewing a twig from the wrong perspective makes it look like a forest.

The controls are toothless and vague at best. There is nothing to prevent the insurance companies to find ways of raising the overall costs of healthcare to increase the value of their mandated cut. In fact some are buying hospitals right now, which puts them in a position to do just that. And even if controls were effective, the remedy is to be back where we were last year, but with a way bigger problem.

Dennis has been proposing and pushing reform that is reform since before Obama was in government. There is no support for your aspersion.

[Raine]

35. You're on point ... EXACTLY!!! nt

:thumbsup:

[xocet]

43. Seriously...

Rep. Kucinich is a consistent voice for true reform. He deserves support from all people who claim to be Democrats - especially those who are here on DU.
It is tiresome to read on DU about his purported egotism et cetera. He has no "Naderesque" qualities, and it is to be suspected that anyone who writes about such qualities might just be enamored with the idea of adding -esque to a word to make their vain scribblings seem intelligent.

Basically, those who tend to denigrate Rep. Kucinich for supporting single payer as true health care reform, probably would have been arguing that true emancipation of the slaves in the 1860's were just so unrealistic as to be inconceivable and that it would be much less exasperating to them if say slavery were mandated for all black people including freemen, but that the slaves could have half a day off every third day with permissible whippings being limited to 3 lashes per incident. Of course, incidents would be limited maximally to thrice per week unless pre-existing discipline problems could be shown to exist.

Those who trash Kucinich here on DU have given in to their fear and embody a sickening sort of craven submission thereto.

Who is Markos Moulitsas anyway? He is a gadfly blogger who has no service to the USA which is remotely comparable to Rep. Kucinich's service to the USA.

Democrats would do well to learn from Rep. Kucinich's principled stand: maybe they would then learn to stop soiling themselves every time they encountered Republican opposition. Perchance those here who currently cannot take the pressure, too, would learn to stop being so craven.

[KG]

48. Markos Moulitsas is a grandstanding tool and attention whore!!!!

:P

[Kitty Herder]

52. He is indeed.

[Moochy]

73. +1

[ihavenobias]

49. Man, you're on a roll.

K & R

[Krashkopf]

54. I wanted to SMACK Moulitsas . . .

every time he smuggly, intentionally, mispronounced Kucinich's name - with the emphasis on the KU - pronouncing it "KU si nich" instead of "Ku SIN ich."

It reminded me of Repubs when they talk about the "DemocRAT party."

[Moochy]

74. I noticed that too.

Also he was downright giddy at being able to put on his Internet Tough Guy act.

[Hissyspit]

57. I was taken aback by Kos' behavior. It was embarassingly intellectually dishonest

and over the top. I really don't know what his problem is. We don't even know with what final form of the reform we are going to end up. If Kucinich is doing this as a tactic to influence the debate, the actions of the House, or the reconciliation process, it could certainly theoretically improve the bill. Or am I missing something?

[20score]

68. Not that I see.

[followthemoney]

59. Give me 30,000,000 new insurance company premium payees

or I'll kill 4,500 people every month.

These insurance companies drive a hard bargain.

They need a slap in the face and a boot in the ass.

[flyarm]

60. That little punk Markos was a Reagan republican who worked to get R- Henry Hyde elected!

he is not a democrat..he is a self professed Libertarian..so who the fuck is he to say DK should be primaried..Markos should STFU and we should tell him so!

DK has always been a liberal democrat..not a fake phony sob like Markos..

Markos who..the CIA spook who prob started his web site for nefarious reasons..

I wouldn't spit at that little toad!..or turd..

He is the same fucker who censored 9/11 even from professionals within the airlines involved.

He is scum in my book!

WTF makes him an expert in anything?

Because he fronted a web site ?????????

but for who???? is my deep question!

[jotsy]

62. To leave the insurance industry in the loop at all, I'm afraid is a deal breaker for me.

There is no point to their intrusion on the process other than to milk profit from it. Their very existence is a failure of our leaders to deliver on what I consider as a constitutional mandate (suddenly that word sounds so much better) in promoting the general welfare of the public. To promise us in millions to the very companies that cause death through negligence and denial as a means to materially benefit, is to shackle us to serial mass murderers. No matter what else any package would contain, I can't find a way to support that. The people can bleed no more money, a dam needs little else to burst. The argument that if we don't do this now, we may never get the chance again. Chances are if we don't take one, we won't have one.

Pardon my Chicken Little moment folks, been a rough day. Attended a foreclosure fraud symposium hosted by my state,s DOJ.

[DisgustedInMN]

63. I have no clue as to who Markos Moulitsas is...

... and now I know why I have no need to. He isn't fit to clean the toilets at a DK rally.

[John Q. Citizen]

70. Thanks for the well written and concise analysis. I agree with you.

[Moochy]

72. He couldnt even keep a straight face while

feigning his outrage!

[frylock]

81. anybody notice a curious lack of response from the gatekeepers?

you know why? because the OP is spot fuckin on. kay and arr.

[Moochy]

82. uncanny lack of ignoreds

[leftstreet]

84. K&R

[ProSense]

86. "For that reason this bill is not only bad policy, it is bad politics. "

Utter nonsense.

The bill includes a better state single payer provision than Kucinich's, even though that's not good enough for him

Kucinich is a hypocrite:

Kucinich supported the "weak" public option, then voted against it, now complains that it's out


And there are people actually fighting for a public option.

[flyarm]

89. Markos is the hypocrite..he was against the senate bill ..until he was for it!!

he is a sloppy hypocrite..he leaves proof of his hypocracy..at his own CIA web site!!

But what would one expect from a Reagan republican ..who worked to get republican Henry Hyde into office???????

what fucking nerve Markos has when he was dead set against the senate bill..

wonder how he is being blackmailed or threatened?? or did he get his CIA oders to stfu??


don't believe me..see for yourself!

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002603

vs.

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002439/

[ProSense]

The Senate bill has been reconciled with the House bill in the President's proposal.

It now enjoys the support of the entire Progressive Caucus, except Kucinich.

[eridani]

90. Except that we have to wait until 2017. Some "improvement" n/t

[ProSense]

91. How long if the bill is killed? n/t

[flyarm]

94. well if a real "reform" bill was produced ..i think real reform would fly through!

bu tthis piece of shit is not "reform"..it is insurance/Pharma/hospital conglomerates bailout.

This bill is not "reform" for the people..it is horse dung! or worse.

[ProSense]

95. If?

If?

This is real reform.

[eridani]

96. Any worthwhile sections of the bill can be passed separately n/t

[slipslidingaway]

87. Thanks knr - I see Markos also blames Nader for Bush and the evils under

Bush.


"...MOULITSAS: Well, it‘s definitely a very Ralph Nader-esque approach, I

think, to politics—a very unrealistic and self-defeating approach. I

mean, Ralph Nader paved the way for eight years of George Bush and wars and

in attacking our civil liberties and our economy.

And I‘m going to hold people, like Dennis Kucinich, responsible for

the 40,000 Americans that die each year from a lack of health care..."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35795909/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/

[Raster]

130. Every time Marikos opens his mouth, he proves yet again he is a one-trick pony,

and beginning to believe his own inflated PR. He's OK for cheesy sound bites on Bill Maher, but sorely lacking on both style and substance.

[SandWalker1984]

92. Et tu, Brutus?

Markos 9/08/09 in thehill.com article:
"If Democrats abandon the public option, they risk a demoralized, cynical base, one unwilling to do the work to get Democrats elected and which will stay home on Election Day. Republicans, on the other hand, are becoming increasingly active and engaged. Shades of 2006 and 2008 in reverse?"


December 15, 2009 Reid Wilson: Tuesday’s Starting Lineup The DailyKos founder sent the DC press corps into spasms last night with 2 tweets signaling his dissatisfaction with Health Care legislation. "Insurance companies win. Time to kill this monstrosity coming out of the Senate," he wrote.

and

There is a major push among liberal Democrats -- led by Democracy for America , the group that emerged from Howard Dean's presidential campaign -- to strip the Health Care reform bill of the individual mandate to buy Insurance now that the Public Option is gone. Markos Moulitsas : "The mandate puts the government in the untenable position of forcing everyone to buy a shitty product from private companies enjoying anti-monopoly protections. Funny how all the measures that helped people in...



There's a lot more comments by Markos where these came from, but you get the idea.

So, how many pieces of silver did it take?????

[flyarm]

93. or how hard did Markos CIA handlers have to squeeze his balls? eom

[SandWalker1984]

98. Et tu, Brutus - part II

One more quote from Dec 2009 by Markos Moulitsas at Daily Kos:

“This is so freakin’ obnoxious I can hardly stand it. We are about to get a turd of a ‘reform’ package, potentially worse than the status quo. We have the insurance industry declaring victory, Republicans cackling with glee, and the administration is using that piece of shit to raise money?”



Hey Markos, what a difference 3 months makes, right? The Senate bill you refer to as "piece of shit" magically became a decent bill and Dennis should now be thrown out in the trash for not supporting the turd bill. HUH? :wtf:

[sabrina 1]

102. Does anyone ever pay any attention

to what this guy says? Looks like people are not familiar with him. He flip flops all over the place, depending what the party line is for any particular day. But one thing he is consistent about is his hatred for real progressives.

He is irrelevant. It's almost funny to see someone like him take on someone like Kucinich. In a debate, Kucinich would wipe the floor with him. But then so would anyone. But he would never debate Kucinich, like most cowardloy political DC insiders, he prefers to smear people from a distance, he is just a big blowhard and always was.

[Bette Noir]

97. I was shocked when I heard Markos call Kucinich "reprehensible."

That's not even a fight between progressives and blue dogs-- that's a fight to the death between progressives. We'll never win, if we don't have each others' backs!

[flyarm]

99. I would never call Markos a progressive..he is a self declared Libertarian/republican

he was a registered Reagan Republican that worked on Republican Henry Hyde's campaign.

He is a fraud.

It is believed ( the proof has long been scrubbed) that he was still employed by the CIA when he began his web site.

[Prof Lester]

104. Well, Kos my ass!

That punk is a spook! Ya? Never never smelled right to me. Now I know why. Death squads eh? Man, that's low. That's REAL low! Dirty little fascist baglicker. That's the smell of death on him. The smell of hundreds of thousands of poor people of color! Trade Unionists! Son of a bitch. A damn Reaganite son of a bitch. A weasel in sheep threads. A skunk in the henhouse. Let the dogs out, Ma.. there's scum in the yard!

[Jax]

107. Markos' forums are clunky

like Markos.

Alyce

[emsimon33]

109. Hmmmm...fixed like the Medicare Drug plan give away to Big Pharma

has been "fixed"? We still are paying multiple times what other countries pay for drugs that often do more harm than good.

Yep, I believe in the "fixed" part--the whole health care reform is fixed and we are the victims.

[Norrin Radd]

112. Moulitsas said "I have always hated him."

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/3/10/844564/-Midday-open-thread

He hates him? Yikes! Not surprising, coming from the guy who wouldn't allow discussion of election fraud on his site.

[flyarm]

121. nor 9/11..eom

[Capn Sunshine]

152. Yeah- hates him for being a purity troll

Incredible what is being thrown against the wall here by posters on this thread.
The best part is the Kos= CIA meme. good luck with that, disinfotarians.

Damn, no wonder the economy is doing better, there's a bunch of internet posters who are starting to spend some of that $ per post money.

Shine on, you crazy diamonds

[Norrin Radd]

157. Hate is hate, no matter how you slice it. And it is hardly disinfo

when I linked to the source of the quote. And it is cowardly to make insinuations about me or my posts without directly addressing me via "by posters on this thread." Is that your method of getting away with being uncivil, to avoid having your post moderated?

[Enthusiast]

113. Thank you, 20score!

See, all we want is REAL reform.

[Hamlette]

114. How dare Kos not trash Obama. Doesn't he understand? This is not about governing a whole country

this is about giving everyone a pony!

What the hell does it matter that there are not enough votes in Congress to pass universal coverage. Kos needs to get on board and start bashing pragmatists as the evil fucks they are.

Idealism forever. Forget about the pony. I want a unicorn and unless Obama gives it to me yesterday, I'm going to bring down the whole party and the country with it. I'd rather have Bush back than be insulted by Kos.

(BTW, there are very few places on the Internet as outlandish as DU on this issue. Thank god.)

[flyarm]

123. MARKOS DID SLAM OBAMA AND THIS BULLSHIT PLAN..HE WAS BASHING OBAMA

he bashed this plan...and badly... before he cheered this plan!

don't believe me..see for yourself!

THE TWO FACES OF MARKOS.......

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002603

vs.

http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002439 /

[Vattel]

115. Here's why it's not bad politics

You say: "The public option or a Medicare expansion has been continuously popular, not only with the left, but with the country as a whole. For that reason this bill is not only bad policy, it is bad politics."

The problem with your argument is that politcians don't care about the country as a whole. They care about their constituency. Because the Senate gives equal representation to small populations in conservative states as large populations in liberal states, the Senate is inevitably biased towards conservatism. Even when Republicans held a solid majority of the seats in the Senate under Bush, the total votes cast for Democratic Senatorial candidates exceeded those cast for Republicans by millions. Of course, Obama should worry about the country as a whole. But he also has to worry about the Senate!

[zipplewrath]

118. Yup, it is unbelievable bad distribution of power

I always knew this, but it is becoming frightenly worse. The grand compromise between 13 eastern seaboard colonies to allow equal representation between states in the senate, has become horribly imbalanced in a 50 state union spanning a continent. The 4 largest states have 32% of the population, and 8% of the representation. Roughly 20 states, having less than 10% of the population yet control 40% of the senate. By the way, 40% is what it takes to maintain a filibuster.

[Raster]

116. Are they still banning members over at KOS for stating Selection 2000 and 2004 were stolen?

And how about 9/11? At least this site just throws your ass into the dungeon...

[flyarm]

124. YES...

[Tennessee ploughboy]

120. pro-mandate people gone too far...

A point that I think many miss in all of this is the fact that many of the so called independent left wing or left leaning blogs, like KOS, TPM, etc., now consider themselves to be the mainstream media, have abandoned their independence, and, for both access and, probably, financial support, have aligned themselves with an increasingly conservative Democratic Party. When real liberals and progressives like Dean, Kucinich and, yes, Ralph Nader, speak truth to power and offer what are actually reasoned, utilitarian solutions to pressing problems, these shills now lambaste them as extremists and spoilers.

This HCR bill is a smoke and mirror bill that mandates universal coverage, but does nothing to control costs or rein in the insurance companies. And, as 20score observes, "...the bill has become worse with each passing month..." Passage of this bill will accomplish something, but it will not solve the problem and it will put any and all discussion of health care reform to bed for another generation. If you want meaningful health care reform, you had better fight for it now. It is the last chance you will get for years.

[flyarm]

128. when Markos attacks DK..he attacks all Liberal Democrats! he attacks you and I ..

he is attacking my democratic values and principles..

he is attacking YOUR democratic values and principles!!!

this from a little fucker who started Kos while still working for the CIA

this from a little fucker who was a Reagan republican

This from a little fucker who worked on getting REPUBLICAN HENRY HYDE elected

This from a little fucker who has a long history of attacking liberals

this from a little fucker who is a self professed Libertarian

this from a little fucker who spent all winter bitching about Obama and the democrats and THIS HEALTH CARE BILL!

GO LOOK THIS LITTLE FUCKER UP!

[SlingBlade]

129. Dennis Kucinich is a Patriot not a Political Hack without

conscience or regard to the issues or policies at hand.

What these assholes are promoting is nothing short of a Democratic Version of
mindless BushBots going about shilling for policies that are against their own
best interest.

Typical Fucking centrist Blue Dog, Lieberman Liberal philosophy.
Any Democrat who's worth his or her salt need just read or re-read
Joe Conason's book " It can happen here", Which recounts in the moment
the arrogant abuses of the Bush Administration.

Do this, And I promise you, You'll either double down on what it means to
be a real democrat, or you'll stop pretending and join the Freep-Tards.

There is, NO MIDDLE GROUND PEOPLE, NONE !



K&R

[Kweli4Real]

133. Call Me Naive or Just Plain Stupid, but ...

If one is starving to death does it make much sense to refuse a PB&J sandwich because it is not the steak that you had been dreaming of?

While I agree that Medicare for All would be the steak and A Public option would be a really, really good hamburger, for the 30 million uninsurered ... this bill would stave off the hunger pains.

The public mandate only really affects those who have opted out of their employer's plan. So those complaining about the mandate, I'm certain that you either have made the conscious choice to opt out, or you really don't understand what the public mandate is about.

[Yuugal]

139. wrong

"The public mandate only really affects those who have opted out of their employer's plan."

It must be nice to live in a world where every employer offers health ins. In the real world, this bill will destroy the working class who will be forced to pay for ins that because of copays and deductibles they won't be able to use.

The party has already lost it's "friend of the working class" reputation through multi-trillion dollar bailouts of rich crooks. This sorry excuse for "reform" is going to make things alot worse.

[Kweli4Real]

146. And what about the subsidies?

The working class whose employers do not provide health insurance will be covered by subsidies that will put the price about the same as those covered by employer plans are already paying, which BTW will be lower than what the insured are paying on their own. So again, the public mandate only really affects those who have opted out of their employer's plan.

How will this "destroy" the working class?

[Yuugal]

149. you would have to be working class to understand

First off, people like you deciding what my family can afford is very offensive, but I digress....

The people who have employer coverage by and large have better paying jobs. Those of us with family members barely scratching by with shitty jobs will be subsidized to buy ins? Big FUCKING deal. We wont be able to afford to use the coverage because the deductibles are multi thousands of dollars and the copays will cripple us even more. You people are about to create a whole generation of virulently anti-dem people when they find out they have to pay for something they can't ever afford to use.


Little Suzy gets sick? Fuck you. 2500 deductible on every member of the family so pay for it yourself.
Little Joey has the flu? Fuck you. 2500 deductible on every member of the family so pay for it yourself.
Wife desperately need care for something else? Fuck you. 2500 deductible on every member of the family so pay for it yourself.

Most families will do what poorer people always do, ignore everything but the neediest person and hope to have enough money to treat just that one instance. On my block I don't know anyone with any savings at all. The working class lives hand to mouth and health savings accts and other rich people bullshit is meaningless when you don't make enough to ever save anything and your rent takes up half the money you get each month. None of us is destitute enough to be considered poor though so we should pay 1000's every year so well to do middle class people can get cheaper ins? It's robin hood in reverse and the pols know it!

I'll support this bill when they get rid of the deductibles and copays. Until then it is just another scam for the rich to exploit us and this time they have a really great angle: they are getting middle class people to push the reform too because they will save a few bux a year on their own care. Selfish fuckheads.

[Pithlet]

150. You make an awful lot of assumptions.

Yeah, anyone who is for the bill just doesn't understand what it's like to be poor or working class. That's a load of shit. That same kind of bullshit tactic could be turned right around om you. You just don't understand what it's like to be turned down for insurance because you have a pre-existing condition. You don't understand sick people! It's a bullshit method of argument, and it isn't based on facts.

The reason for mandates is to allow coverage for those with pre-existing conditions. Leave healthy people out of the pool, an there isn't enough to cover the sick in the for profit model we rely on. It's a fact. It sucks that we're going through all this bullshit because we can't get a non-profit single payer, but there it is. There are indeed subsidies for those who can't afford it. You may disagree that it is enough. But those who are fighting for the scraps we can get aren't fighting for it because we don't understand the working class. Many of them ARE members themselves. We're fighting for it because at present it's the only way to extend coverage to millions who would otherwise not get it. If you have valid arguments for why the bill is a bad idea, you shouldn't have to resort to such tactics.

[Yuugal]

153. the bill was written by lobbyists

and is still in flux. All I have to go on is based on what I've seen here and elsewhere. As it looks now I'm going to have to come up with 1000's of dollars I don't have every year to pay for insurance I can't afford to ever use. That is a ripoff. Many other people at my income level feel the same way. If it benefits you, fine. From what I've read and heard it hurts my family and thus doesn't get my support. You can weave all the fancy words you like together but it still wont relieve me of my obligation to the IRS or the AETNA stooges who own Obumble and our govt if this crap bill passes.

"If you have valid arguments for why the bill is a bad idea"

I guess the bill hurting my family isn't "valid" enough for you. WHATEVA seeya in NOV. If our party didn't have its collective mouth filled with corporate ballsack maybe they could speak plainer to us about how this helps the working stiffs who don't make much money. I'll say it again forya: Mandating that I buy something I can't ever afford to use is not acceptable to me and no amount of DLC brow beating will change that.

[SandWalker1984]

135. This bill isn't about health care, it's about MANDATED PROFITS FOR INSURANCE CORPORATIONS

If left up to the Republicans, we would be forced to buy
corporate medical insurance IF we can afford it or, as Grayson put it, die if we cannot.

The Democrats in Congress (and White House) serve the SAME health care corporations/campaign contributors as the Republicans.

However, there is a difference -- the Republicans would coerce us into buying corporate medical "care" by necessity, the Democrats
want to mandate we buy it by force of LAW with the threat of expensive FINES or imprisonment. They even plan to use the IRS to enforce the fines. The so called health care reform bill is in reality a MANDATED PROFITS bill for the health insurance industry

Democrats are pushing for a forcible mandate for everyone to buy insurance from an artificial, monopoly market place with no options OTHER than corporate insurance. If you are over 50 years of age, you can be charged 3 TIMES AS MUCH for your coverage. Plus, when the system goes bust from the overhead, and can no longer provide coverage because of unconstrained corporate greed (think 38% increases in premiums) -- people will (a)go broke trying to pay for mandated insurance premiums, (b)get FINED or possibly go to jail for failure to pay fines or (c)DIE.

It is a cruel hoax and ultimately meaningless choice. It is like giving a condemned person a choice of the method of their execution.

For the first time in American history, Democrats are about to pass a bill that uses the coercive power of the federal government to force every American -- simply by virtue of being an American -- to purchase the products of a private company. At heart, the Democrats' solution to 48 million uninsured is to force the them to buy inadequate private insurance -- with potentially high deductibles and co-pays and no price controls -- or be fined by the federal government."

We deserve better than this. I hope there are still some Democrats in the House of Representatives that have the honesty and courage to stand up and say NO to passing the Senate version of their Corporate Health Insurance Profits Protection Act, since the Senate and White House have obviously sold us out on health care reform.

One thing is certain. If the Democrats persist in this
it spells the END of the Democratic party (thank you, DLC). They will be wiped out in the next 2 elections and there will be nothing left of the Democrats. YOU must tell them that.

The only thing that can stop the corporate mandates is if THEY finally understand that they are no longer fooling YOU, the VOTERS.




These "chains" aren't what we can believe in, nor should we.

[Better Believe It]

136. Has Moulitsas been offered a job by Rahm Emanuel or does Emanual have some dirt on him?

[daleanime]

138. Damn straight....

:mad:

[ejbr]

141. k & r n/t

[DirkGently]

143. Well said

[guruoo]

144. "Actually, they do. Better than most - by a long shot."

:rofl:

[Faryn Balyncd]

145. K&R

:hi:




:kick:

[shimmergal]

148. Does no one on the Left

Know how to light the spark that could burst into irresistable pressure for change?

I agree, we're fast approaching the point where "a dam needs little else to burst". If/when this HCR bill passes as is, we may reach it.

Yet I've thought that before, repeatedly this past year, and nothing happens. As somebody else has written "the left is quiescent" even though we hate what's going on. And what do we get instead of a real movement for health CARE reform, not to speak of pressure to create jobs?

We get the Tea Partiers. Who're mad as hell, but don't even know why.

If anybody is game to start a movement to pressure the PTB on health care, the best target audience will 50-64 years-old age group. These are people who've been paying for years into "the system." They're terribly vulnerable to layoffs. The health insurance companies are going to charge them outrageous prices for doubtful coverage. To wait for 14 years because you can't afford to see a doctor under--or outside of--the "insurance" you're offered is very chancy -- even mild conditions, untreated, can worsen enormously in that length of time.

And by-and-large, this cohort votes.

Who's going to start a movement that can pressure Washington EFFECTIVELY to open up Medicare? Instead of trashing Markos (who richly deserves it) SOMEBODY ought to be studying the dynamics of social change and how to make them work for us. Who can do it?

[upi402]

151. +1^

I know I don't make many friends here. I try to prod people into seeing that there is no opposition party pushing back against corporatism. I'm just tired. For decades I've fought this, from marching to money - and I feel like such a failure when the DLC has such a grip even here at DU.

'Underground' my ass. It's like metastasized cancer.