They didn't call it an "Exchange". They called it a "Cartel".

[bvar22]

When the competing Oil Corporations in the Middle East gathered under one roof, they didn't call it an "Exchange".
They called it a "Cartel".
They did NOT "encourage competition".
They ended it.

I am one of the 45 million "uninsured" Americans.
I understand that after this "reform" passes, I will be herded into the "Exchange" with 45 Million other Americans where I will FORCED to BUY a product from one of the For Profit Health Insurance Corporations sitting on the "Exchange". There will be NO Publicly Owned, Government Administered option available. Under penalty of LAW, I will be FORCED to give my business directly to one of these Corporations.

Obama and the "Centrist" Democrats say that we need an "Exchange" so that I will have access to "One Stop Shopping where I can compare Prices and Plans".
But I can already do this.
So can anyone with Internet Access.
Just Google "Shop for Health Insurance" and see what happens.
You get 52 Million hits.
There are many sites where you can "compare Prices and Plans".
Its easy.

Obama and the "Centrist" Democrats also say that having the Health Insurance Corporations under one roof will force them to "compete" against each other for my business.
Pardon Me, but ROFL.
I've been an American all of my life.
I have directly experienced HOW Big Business works in this country.
When the BIG 5 Health Insurance Corporations look at 45 Million forced customers herded into the "Exchange" Pens, they will NOT "compete" against each other.
They WILL simply divide the herd and go about the shearing.

These people are hardened sociopaths, and already have a documented track record of Collusion in dividing up markets in individual states.
They already know how to do this. It is WHAT they do.
There won't even need to be a spoken word of agreement among the principles.
They already KNOW the rules for MAXIMUM PROFIT.
They will NOT undercut each other. They will NOT "compete".
The prices and packages available on the "Exchange" are going to be miraculously similar.
There will be no REAL bargains.
Its The American Way.

"Oh, but there will be "regulations" against that."
Pardon me again, but more ROFL.
Collusion and Price Fixing is extremely difficult to prove, even IF you have an honest and powerful Watchdog agency....which we don't.
The Price Fixing WILL be done by silent Gentlemen's Agreement.
There will be no way to PROVE it. These people already KNOW how to do this.
They already KNOW the answers if hauled into court.
They will NOT undercut each other.
Remember the Cigarette Execs appearing before Congress?
SOLIDARITY...and Mountains of pure MANDATED PROFIT!

The ONLY way to introduce REAL competition into the "Exchange" was an option to BUY into a plan "like Medicare"..Publicly Owned/Government Administered.
Without the Public Option, the "Exchange" is nothing more than a cattle pen for 45 Million Americans forced to BUY from a de-facto Cartel.


Fix it NOW.
Pass it LATER.
There will be NO "Fixing it Later",
especially after the losses in 2010.

We will be forced to live with THIS bill for a LONG time.
Say "NO!" to Mandated Profits for the Health Insurance Industry.

[ProSense]

1. Rambling on.

"BUY into a plan 'like Medicare'"

You mean the plan that was fixed after it passed and still needs even more fixing?

[bvar22]

3. YES.

A Plan exactly like that.
One that lays a FOUNDATION toward Health Care REFORM.

UNLIKE the current Senate Plan that lays a FOUNDATION that permanently enshrines the For Profit Health Insurance Industry as the only gateway to Health Care in America.
We will have to UNDO the Senate Plan before we can take a step toward the type of Health Care the rest of the civilized WORLD takes for granted.

[laughingliberal]

6. Rambling on = Post with more than 2 sentences. nt

[bvar22]

8. Oh. I forgot to add a

Blue Linky that Goes Nowhere

THERE!
All fixed.

[laughingliberal]

9. Now isn't that better? Lol. nt

[laughingliberal]

13. And might I add: DUzy! nt

[inna]

14. .

:rofl:

That's too funny!

:yourock:

[waiting for hope]

15. Perfect!

:rofl:

[saracat]

19. Much better now. Thank you.

[Political Heretic]

26. ZING! Hilarious.

Nice one.

[ProSense]

30. Oooh look,

pathetic cheap thrills.

:rofl:

[laughingliberal]

35. You forgot your link. nt

[freddie mertz]

41. LOL!!!

Talk about hitting it on the NONSENSICAL head!

[Bluenorthwest]

52. spot on

[City Lights]

173. Okay, that made me laugh!

:rofl:

[eridani]

45. You probably prefer the original Social Security, which was actually--

--a mandate that everyone invest in the stock market for retirement or be docked by the IRS. As we all know, that magically turned into a government-run retirement program.

[Hello_Kitty]

102. Or the public school system

That started out as parents getting vouchers to send their kids to private schools.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

56. Are you done embarrassing yourself?

Really, I mean it.

[tallahasseedem]

123. +1

I think that many people forget this.

[Psephos]

2. Forcing people to buy a corrupt industry's products is not my idea of HCR either. n/t

[bridgit]

4. There is more than one way to effect this landscape, even a snooker table has 4 rails:

'Eliminate the antitrust exemption for health insurance companies (Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson)

By Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-Texas) - 02/24/10 12:43 PM ET

The U.S. House of Representatives passed the Affordable Health Care for America Act on November 7, and the Senate passed its own health care reform bill on December 24. Our country faces so many challenges right now that in recent weeks, it seems that momentum for reforming health care has slowed as other issues have taken center stage, particularly the need for another jobs bill to build on the success of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. However, reforming our broken health care system so that every American has access to quality, affordable health care is as important now as it was in November, when I voted in favor of the House bill. In fact, as time passes, reform grows increasingly important -- in the coming months, we will see more and more Americans priced out of the health insurance market.

For example, Anthem Blue Cross of California recently announced that its individual market premiums would rise by as much as 39 percent in the coming months, and the company agreed to postpone the rate increases for two months only when California state officials and Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius asked for a public justification from the company. In 2009, insurance companies in states across the country requested permission to increase rates by double digits -- a particularly shocking example occurred in Michigan, where Blue Cross/Blue Shield attempted to increase rates for plans sold on the individual market by 56 percent.'

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/83419-eliminate-the-antitrust-exemption-for-health-insurance-companies-rep-eddie-bernice-johnson


Say NO! - to health insurance companies being allowed to operate within anti-trust exemption

[laughingliberal]

5. bvar 22 nails it again! nt

[Beetwasher]

7. There Will Be A Non-Profit Option On The Exchange

U forgot to mention that.

[bvar22]

11. Well,

Then you can give us all the details of how this "non-profit" is going to force the Big 5 to compete for my business.

[Beetwasher]

18. U Can Figure It Out

It's not difficult.

[saracat]

20. Perhaps you can explain? If it isn't difficult.

[Beetwasher]

24. It Will Still Be Over Your Head

n/t

[saracat]

27. So the answer is you don't know?

[laughingliberal]

32. Would seem that's the case. nt

[Beetwasher]

48. I Won't Waste My Time Explaining Anything To You

You deserve only mocking.

[Raineyb]

88. More like he's making shit up. Because logically there is no answer.

A small non profit won't be able to compete with the big 5. Not to mention having an exchange with lots of different companies breaks up the pool and dilutes buying power which is why single payer is the way to go in the first place.

But the cheerleaders are impervious to logic.

[freddie mertz]

42. Thanks for your substantive contribution.

NOT.

[Beetwasher]

49. When People Are Sincere

I treat their requests for information sincerely. Otheriwise, I mock them.

[freddie mertz]

53. Whatever. We could still use the information.

My guess is that you don't have it.

[Beetwasher]

55. Oh, I'm Sure You Can "Use" A Lot Of Things

That's my guess.

[freddie mertz]

61. Ouchy! I challenged you to back up your claim.

If you have some information that might shed new light on the topic at hand, why not share it?

[Beetwasher]

62. As I've Said

I only mock insincere requests. MOCK!

[freddie mertz]

65. What makes you so sure this is insincere? nt.

[Beetwasher]

66. I'm Omniscient

Stop that, you'll make it bleed.

[freddie mertz]

87. Just a washer of beets then, I guess.

Or something.

[Beetwasher]

91. Let It Bleed!

n/t

[ooglymoogly]

121. Judging from your previous posts

anyone asking you for information needs to have their bell tower checked...for mocking birds and bats and bells that are cracked.

[Beetwasher]

142. Maybe Just You

[ooglymoogly]

149. Nope, already checked...no mocking birds, no bats and the bells

are sound. It has been mock proofed with pie plates.

[Beetwasher]

153. Mmm, Pie

n/t

[eridani]

46. Of course I can figure it out. I know what happened to Group Health

--in the Puget Sound area after for-profit plans were introduced. They used to have a single plan for everyone at the same price, but they joined the race to the bottom to avoid being put out of business.

[Beetwasher]

50. Were There Federal Regulations In Place?

Medical loss ratios? Federally mandated minimum coverages?

[dflprincess]

128. There are MLRs in place in Minnesota

when one of the big non-profits here was audited it was discovered that they had been lying to the state about meeting the MLR.

Regulations only work if there are people in place to enforce them and if violating them carries some real consequences.

[Beetwasher]

144. Yes, Enforcement Is Necessary

But that's not a reason to NOT pass regulations. There's always going to be douches who will try to get around the rules, that doesn't mean we shouldn't make them.

[dflprincess]

150. You're living in Wonderland if you think the regulations will be enforced

[Beetwasher]

152. Then Why Pass Anything?

Gee, let's all just give up since there will be douchebags who will try to get around the rules.

[dflprincess]

155. I agree

there is no point in passing a bill that does nothing but dig the crooks that have been robbing us blind further into the system.

But, Congress is not going to bite the hand that feed it so not only will they pass the Insurance Profit Protection Act, they will see to it that there are very few teeth in the regulations.

[Beetwasher]

157. No, I Mean Why Pass Anything, Ever? Why Regulate Anything, Ever?

Why have laws against murder? People are still going to get away with murdering people sometimes, right? According to your logic, why bother?

If additional Federal regulations on the insurance industry is protection for the industry, you've got a funny defintion.

[eridani]

178. Regulation by medical loss ratios is uesless crap

Fifteen states have already tried it and failed abysmally. And the federally mandated minimun coverage is completely useless garbage that pays only 60% of medical expenses. Force people to buy that shit and they won't be able to afford to use it.

[Sebastian Doyle]

12. No there won't.

The DLC douchebags demanded it be removed before they would vote for it.

[Beetwasher]

16. Wrong

[saracat]

21. No link?????

[Sebastian Doyle]

22. Apparently the scripted talking points on Bootwasher's workstation

haven't been updated in several months. He's still spinning the exchange version 1.0 (when the public option was still part of it)

[Beetwasher]

25. Umm, Jeenyus, The Non-Profit Is Not The PO, Duh

n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

31. Then obviously, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Rahm really should train you guys better than this.

[Beetwasher]

51. Ha! Are You Really Claiming That The Non-Profit Options On The Exchange ARE The Public Option????

:rofl:

[Beetwasher]

23. Where's Yours?

[saracat]

28. Sorry, I wasn't playing. The one that alleges something has to link.

I was asking a question. You don't need a link to do that because it is assumed you don't know , otherwise you wouldn't be asking the question. See how that works?

[Beetwasher]

47. No?

:shrug:

I assume you've read the bill. It's in there. If you claim it's not, let's see your source.

[saracat]

75. See whats there? You must be responding to another poster. I haven't said anything was contained

anywhere? Are you in the wrong thread? I am have said something elswhere but not in this thread.I don't provide thinks for other posters.

[Beetwasher]

77. Yes?

qwertyuiop?

[bridgit]

76. Dude give it up, you're posting with some of the reasons the RW rolls the LW so easily...

They're too busy cannibalizing other Dems http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7877076&mesg_id=7886636

[Beetwasher]

78. Mmmm, Cannibalism

Pass the salt?

[ooglymoogly]

124. I prefer a nice bottle of chianti and some fava beans. nt

[GreenArrow]

111. No, only a voice from on High.

.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. Minnesota has non-profit insurance companies

that act like a cartel. Same policies, same prices, same silly rules.

[Beetwasher]

64. Are They Federally Regulated?

With MLR's, review of premium increases and mandated minimum coverages etc.? I didn't think so.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. No, but Minnesota has some of the strictest regulations in the country

and they still can't cover everything those weasels do.

And I'm not impressed with an MLR of 20%, especially when the companies got along with 5% as recently as the 1990s. There's plenty of room for executive bonuses and fancy buildings in there.

If that's the best the Feds can do, then we're screwed.

A REAL government (not bought off) would say, "You'll accept 5% and you'll like it. That's more profit than supermarkets make."

[Beetwasher]

68. Well, There Will Now Be MORE Regulations And Enforcement

And while the MLR can be better, they are an improvement on status quo. There will ALSO be mandated minumum coverages, federal review of premium increases and more.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

69. The MLR could be a LOT better. It's ridiculous.

Considering that the premium levels and out-of-pocket levels in the bill are already unrealistically high for the average person, there shouldn't be ANY premium increases until they agree to a MLR of 5%. Why, with an MLR of 5%, they might actually be able to lower premiums and provide actual health care instead of hiring scads of people to concentrate no denying claims.

I mean, who really runs the country here? Why do corporations get to tell us which laws they're willing to obey? Just try that as an individual and see where it gets you!

[Beetwasher]

70. Well Then! Let's Do Nothing!

That'll certainly help! :eyes:

[bvar22]

80. No. Not at all.

HERE is WHAT we CAN do:

1)Kill the current nightmare with the fatally flawed "Exchanges", Individual Mandates, Tax increase on the Working Class, and mandated Profits for the HI Industry.
Just put it in the TRASH where it belongs.

2)Immediately break out the good crumbs and offer them as simple, clean, easy to understand, short, Stand Alone Bills. One Bill to outlaw PEC exclusion...one bill to outlaw dumping...one bill to raise the eligibility for Medicaid....
We don't have to eat the whole Shit Pie just to get the good crumbs.

3)Bring them to The Floor, one at a time, for Up or Down Roll Call votes, and LET the Republicans TRY to oppose them. All of a sudden, The Republicans aren't against "The Government Taking Over Health Care",
the Republicans are now FOR Health Insurance Dumping people.

The House successfully DID this last week with a clean Bill removing the Anti-Trust Exemption from the HI Corps.
It passed easily. The Republicans didn't DARE mount an opposition.

4)Offer and expansion of Medicare Buy In eligibility to the unemployed over 55 NOT as "Health Care Reform, but as immediate "Emergency Aid to Americans who want to Work but are currently unemployable due to the bad economy."
LET the Republicans TRY and OPPOSE THAT!
.
.
. and BINGO, the door to Medicare for ALL is wide OPEN and will NEVER be closed, even IF there is a Blood Bath in 2010.
It is EXTREMELY difficult to Take Away something that The People LIKE.
(Try taking Medicare AWAY from a Senior and see what happens! LOL)
As an added PLUS, the Democrats can parade THOUSANDS of grateful Americans in fron of the TV cameras for the 2010 elections.

This CAN be done in less than a week, the same amount of time it took Congress to give Wall Street a Trillion Dollars.
Obama & The Democrats COULD do this...if they wanted to.

The "Lets do Nothing" excuse is as BOGUS as the "We'll Fix it Later" scam.
Another Health Insurance Industry Talking Point.
Same as the "Oh, You want to kill 45,000 Americans!"
Pure Horse Shit.

[Beetwasher]

81. Oh, We Won't Be Able To Fix This Later, But We Will Somehow Be Able To Pass Medicare For All Later??

On what planet?

Just click your heels together Dorothy! Or will it happen with your magic pixie dust? Wish upon a star?

[bvar22]

84. Cracking the Medicare door open BEFORE 2010....

...would be immediate benefit FOR the Democratic Party in the 2010 elections.
Can you see the line of grateful Working Class Americans passing in front TV cameras thanking the Democratic Party for their help...and condemning any Republican who tried to oppose it?

I can.

[Beetwasher]

85. Go For It! Just Click Your Heals Together!

That always works.

Or if that fails, try the magic beans.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. Yes

Instead of foisting a corporate welfare bill on the American people, let's take the good provisions separately and force the Republicanites to try to oppose banning rescission and other evil practices. Let the Repubs vote against adding more public health clinics for the working poor in their states. Force them to vote against or accept stuff that people will like, one item at a time.

[Beetwasher]

86. Oh, Yeah, That'll Work

Just wish upon a star...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

95. Since it worked with antitrust, why not with other measures?

:shrug:

[Beetwasher]

96. Well, Gee, By That Logic, We Should Be Able To Fix This Bill Then!

Since that's worked for SS, Medicare, Civil Rights legislation and on and on. Or is past legislative history only relevant when it supports YOUR personal preferences?

Me, I live in reality on planet earth, where if this legislation fails, we won't get another shot for a VERY long time, if ever. Meanwhile, how many millions will continue to suffer and die without access to healthcare?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

99. Get rid of the mandate to buy private insurance

and we have a deal. Add a public option open to all legal residents of the U.S. without exception, and we really have a deal.

Otherwise, I am resolutely opposed to the mandate.

Why is the PRIVATE mandate the one non-negotiable demand in this bill? Why is it the only thing that can't be bargained away?

[Beetwasher]

109. Umm u can opt in to a non-profit plan

or choose to pay the tax. U will not be forced to buy private if u don't want to.

Furthermore the best way to control costs is if everyone buys into the system.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

110. We have non-profits in Minnesota, and they still suck

Anyone can make themselves LOOK non-profit and still have plenty of money left for multi-million dollar executive salaries and lavish buildings.

[Beetwasher]

116. Well Then Its A Good Thing They Will NOW Be Federally Regulated

And have to abide by MLR's.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

119. I'll believe it when I see it

when my insurance company starts covering preventive care without me having to reapply, when my total out-of-pocket is below $10,000, without my having to reapply.

Or are the insurance companies depredations grandfathered in, so that (in Obama's words) "I can keep the policy I have" or have to do so?

[Beetwasher]

141. Yes, You Will

[mzmolly]

132. Minnesota Care

was a great program when my family was in need. :shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

134. But the income levels for it are pretty low

Many people who might actually need it make "too much" money to qualify.

[mzmolly]

136. We qualified quite some time ago when my husband was between jobs.

It was a huge relief considering the price of continuing ala cobra was $1800 monthly. Here are the current income limits as an FYI.

http://edocs.dhs.state.mn.us/lfserver/Legacy/DHS-4346-ENG

We paid based upon income as well and were never denied a claim.

[mzmolly]

131. +1

:hi:

[tigereye]

104. I really think health care should be regulated like a utility with price caps

and plenty of over-sight.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. That's how they do it in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands

and other countries that use private insurance companies as the basis of their system.

[tigereye]

112. yes, it's so bizarre how stubborn we are in defending a system here that is

so callous.

Too bad the antis aren't able to look at the cost -efficiency of European systems. :evilgrin:

[mzmolly]

133. This legilsation is a step

in that direction.

[tigereye]

161. hmm, I really haven't read enough to get a good feel for the over-all

focus of it - I think common sense has been lost in all the yammering about "socialism" as per usual. Sigh.

[mzmolly]

166. There are too many bogus talking points on both

sides of the "no" spectrum. It's either a "socialist takeover" or "not real reform". I look forward to learning more about the final product. Though, even the Senate bill with all it's flaws is a huge step forward.

[tigereye]

167. yes, I think many of the points seem fine, particularly stopping refusals for

PEC. Nothing is perfect. Something needs to happen and this is probably the best we are going to get at this point.

[mzmolly]

177. Agreed. Imagine if perfection was the only option people voted for

when it came to social security, medicare and medicaid? :shrug:

[druidity33]

101. The current legislation

DOES NOT provide adequate regulation, has a terrible MLR and the mandates have no price controls...

so your point is?

:shrug:

[Beetwasher]

107. Meh

It's better than status quo and can b built upon once in place. U might b surprised to know that I would agree that the regs and MLR's should b strengthened. It's a point not worth scrapping the bill for and in fact may b improved sooner rather than later via the recon fix. In the end though even as is its a significant improvement.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

120. If it's going to be so easy to reform it, why wait to do so?

Reform it first; then pass it.

Should be simple if it's going to be so easy to reform it later.

[scarletwoman]

129. I'm minded of an old song...

You'll get pie in the sky when you die...

[Beetwasher]

143. No One Said It Would Be Easy

Additionally, who knows exactly what will need to be patched, and exactly how, until we see what the shits at the insurance co's are gonna try to do to continue to fuck w/ the system.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

146. You said

until we see what the shits at the insurance co's are gonna try to do to continue to fuck w/ the system.

My point exactly!

We KNOW, based on past behavior, that the insurance companies are going to continue to fuck with the system.

Then why coddle them? If we MUST have private insurance, why are our Dems so scared to regulate their asses off as Germany, the Netherlands, and Switzerland do? (No pre-existing conditions, no rescissions, premiums based solely on household income, no deductibles, annual limits on copays, requirements to pay bills in full within ten days with no arguments, required basic coverage although companies may add "sweeteners" for competitive advantage)

Imposing regulations like that would be EXTREMELY popular with the voters.

[Beetwasher]

147. If You Call New Federal Regulations Coddling, Then You Have A Funny Definition

They are going to be regulated like they never have been before. Will it be enough? Probably not, but it's a start. Why you have a problem with that, I can't fathom.

[Beetwasher]

148. Dupe

n/t

[Hell Hath No Fury]

59. I currently have insurance through Kaiser --

a not-for-profit health insurance company.

Sometikes I can afford my co-pays. Sometimes I cannot. The surgery I need is too expensive for me right now, so I continue to wait until it is affordable for me. I've been waiting close to two years now.

My Mom has Medicare. She has had three surgeries in that same time period. All paid for just fine, no problems.

Still think a non-profit option will "fix" the problem of forced purchase of insurance?

[Beetwasher]

63. Not Alone It Won't Fix It, But With Federal Regulations, MLR's

Minimum coverage requirements, reveiw of premium increases etc. it will certainly help.

[bvar22]

82. "Regulations" were discussed in the OP.

Did you read it?
You haven't offered a cogent rebuttal to anything specific that I posted in the OP,
but I do appreciate you kicking this thread to the top where more people can read it.

THEY will be able to decide who is credible and sincere, and who is not.

[Beetwasher]

108. Why Would'nt I Kick This Thread?

Despite the sniping and snark there's some good discussion.

Of course i read yr op. I just have a different perspective on the regs. U might b surprised to know that I too I see them as inadequate but still a vast improvement over status quo.

[dflprincess]

127. The three largest insurers in Minnesota are "nonprofit"

none of their CEOs are living in 3 bedroom ramblers in an inner ring suburb or driving 5 year old Civics.

Their premium costs are right up there with the for profits.

Several years ago the AG's office went after them in audits and finding items like paying for condos for some executives and lavish spending on events for insurance brokers and reps.

How honest a non-profit insurer is really depends on how closely they're monitored and if the wrong person is in charge of the oversight, they'll get by with murder - literally.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

130. Yes, and now they'll be allowed to spend 20% of their take

on crap like that. They'll be explicitly allowed to do so. I can't imagine that they'll exercise voluntary restraint.

[Beetwasher]

145. Well, NOW There Will Be ANOTHER Federal Level Of Enforcement

That's a good thing. There will always be shit heads who will try to get around them, but that's NOT a reason to NOT regulate.

By your logic, why make murder illegal? People are still going to try and get away with it, and some of them will actually succeed.

[dflprincess]

151. Actually, I believe the bills leave quite a lot of the regulation to the states

they are not creating a federal agency to enforce the regulations.

[Beetwasher]

154. They Don't Need A New Federal Agency

Why would they need a new federal agency?Federal law is enforced by DOJ and Federal courts. Regualtions and administration will be overseen by DHHS. The States willl have to have AT LEAST the federal level of regulations. What you BELIEVE is irrelevant. There is reality that there will be an overriding level of federal oversight and enforcement that was not there before. That is a good thing no matter how you slice it. You can argue that those fed regs may not be adequate, but they WILL be better than status quo.

[dflprincess]

156. Yeah, existing agencies are so good at enforcement

Better than the status quo? This bill reenforces the status quo by forcing us to by insurance with no guarantee of acceess to care.

If the bill is so impressive, why don't you post the sections that explain all these regulations and how forcefully they will be enforced?

What you think is in the bill means nothing.

[Beetwasher]

158. Well, The Sherrif In My Town Is Crook

Why have any laws then? He won't enforce them, so might as well not have any laws at all, right?

How silly.

Your requests are insincere so I will not bother trying to convince you of anything. It's obvious you've made up your mind to just piss on this legislation regardless of anything presented to you. I will not waste my time for you.

[dflprincess]

159. One thing I notice is that supporters of the bill never seem able to

post back up for what they're defending. They generally use a variation of the cop out you just posted.

If you really knew the bill contained fierce regulation you'd be more than happy to post it just to prove me wrong and perhaps even change my mind. Call whoever it is that's giving you your talking points and ask them what sections to post.

[Beetwasher]

160. Who Said It's "Fierce"??? Where The Fuck Did I Say That???

Cut the dishonest, strawman bullshit. There ARE new federal regulations and enforcment that have NEVER existed before. That is a good thing. Is it enough? Personally, I don't think they are strong enough, but it's better than status quo, and a start.

Read the bill for yourself, they are in there. I'm not going on a snipe hunt for insincere pissers.

[dflprincess]

162. I have read the House bill and most of the Senate bill

and, unlike you, I am not impressed.

As for your "snipe hunt" is that an admission about any real regulation and enforcement being non-existent?

This bill is not a start, it's all there is. How naive do you have to be to think they'll "fix" this later when they can't pass real reform with the majorities they have now?

If you don't want to back up your assertions with links to prove me wrong, I'm sure there's many on this thread who would like to see them.

[Beetwasher]

165. I'm Saavy Enough To Know To Not Waste My Time Trying To Convince You Of Anything

When you make statements that regulation and enforcement is non-existent, it's clear you're either lying about the bills or lying about having read them. If you want to piss and moan go ahead, but don't ask me to hold it for you.

I know insincerity when I see it, and you, my little cupcake, are clearly insincere.

[dflprincess]

169. Savvy is not a word I would use to describe you

as, like so many of the apologists for this scam you can only resort to name calling. I find your use of the term "cupcake" sexist and a pathetic attempt to be make yourself feel good, but I guess it's all you have.

There's a difference between the bill(s) mentioning regulations and enforcement and adding language that will create a way for to follow through. That is what is missing and if you were honest, you'd admit that or produce the sections that set up a means for actually enforcing the rules if, for no other reason, then to prove me wrong.

[Beetwasher]

172. How About Sweet Cheeks?

:rofl:

Umm, "mentioning" regulations and enforcements??? That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. It's fucking legislation and will be federal law and will be enforced as such. You know, the kind that if violated can be prosecuted by the DOJ and taken to federal court? That's the means of enforcement, just like EVERY OTHER federal law and regualtion. Duh.

I guess Federal Courts, DOJ and DHHS are not good enough enforcement and oversight for you. They certainly seem to be sufficient for every OTHER federal law on the books :eyes:

Either you're too ignorant to know how federal law works or your being disengenous.

[dflprincess]

174. Like all those other regulations the DOJ & other agencies are so good at enforcing?

There is no meaningful enforcement written into the bills and much of the enforcement is left to the states, not the federal government and neither the states nor the feds have the money to watch the insurance companies as closely as they need to be watched. If they did, they wouldn't be getting away with the crap they pull now.

It is sad that you can't defend your postition without becoming offensive, but I suppose it's to be expected from those who have no other arguments.

[Beetwasher]

176. LOL! Well Then, Why Have Laws At All?

There's no good enforcement, so, might as well fuck it all! Let anarchy reign! Murderers will still try to murder and some even get away with it, so fuck it, why make it illegal?

How ridiculously pathetic.

Really, you deserve only mocking. I can't take you seriously, sugarplumb.

[scarletwoman]

10. "Herd" is the operative word -- we are nothing but herd animals to the Owner Class.

To be milked, or sheared, or sent to the glue factory when we've outlived our usefulness to the Owners.

I wish our fellow citizens would stop putting up with it.

sw

[saracat]

17. What a well constructed post! Congrats! Well done.

[laughingliberal]

33. bvar22' s the best, huh? nt

[subterranean]

29. It will be a uniquely American experiment if it passes.

No country in the world has ever achieved universal health care through mandatory for-profit insurance.

[laughingliberal]

34. Yes.

Nauseating, isn't it?

[cornermouse]

40. At the rate we're going?

No other country is going to want the type of "democracy" and "freedom" that we're selling.

[leftstreet]

36. K&R

[yurbud]

37. sad but every word is true

[texanwitch]

38. Damn straight.

We will be stuck with this crappy health insurance for a long time.

[cornermouse]

39. ahem.

""Oh, but there will be "regulations" against that."
Pardon me again, but more ROFL.
Collusion and Price Fixing is extremely difficult to prove, even IF you have an honest and powerful Watchdog agency....which we don't.
The Price Fixing WILL be done by silent Gentlemen's Agreement.
There will be no way to PROVE it. These people already KNOW how to do this.
They already KNOW the answers if hauled into court.
They will NOT undercut each other.
Remember the Cigarette Execs appearing before Congress?
SOLIDARITY...and Mountains of pure MANDATED PROFIT!"

Think oil companies and the price of gasfor another example. I've always thought that was price fixing.

[laughingliberal]

72. +1000

Years of examples of how these corporations get around all this and we still have such gullibility among us. Baffling.

[ShortnFiery]

43. Amen. Please THINK this through? ... don't look back at this like the Bankster Bailout and

The Iraq War Resolution.

Fix it NOW.
Pass it LATER.
There will be NO "Fixing it Later",
especially after the losses in 2010.

We will be forced to live with THIS bill for a LONG time.
Say "NO!" to Mandated Profits for the Health Insurance Industry.

[Vinca]

44. On one program I was watching yesterday, someone mentioned

that I, an older person without insurance, will "get to" purchase insurance at 3 times the going rate because of a clause in the bill. Isn't that exciting? They're going to let me shell out $20,000 a year to these bandits! The real mystery is this. The POTUS is on his health care tour, trashing the insurance companies at every opportunity in order to convince the masses how good his health care reform bill is. The one that serves us up to the insurance companies on a platter.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. I have several Plan B's in mind for if this stinking pile passes

especially if, as I expect, I get a whopping premium increase (now officially allowed and encouraged) on my upcoming milestone birthday.

[truedelphi]

90. Please see response 89.

What if we all just form our own insurance companies?

It would actuallky be cheaper to do, as incorporation only costs $ 3500 or so if you do it yourself

Health Insurance companies are widely unregulated - which is why on TV and in the mail you see ads for companies saying they will insure your entire family for $ 45 a month.

Those fly by night outfits collect money for six months then move out of stte. Then come back a few years later and start all over again.

[tigereye]

105. that is kind of bizarre, isn't it?

We are looking to buy insurance on our own since the new work plan (we changed jobs) looks crappy - and since we are 50 plus now, we have the huge list of conditions that might stop the process. It's bizarre how non-profit corporations get to deny the folks who enabled them as younger and healthier customers,to increase those massive profits.


crazy, ain't it? But socialized comprehensive health care, oh no, we can't have that. It would violate the American way- screw anyone who doesn't have it. Bizarre.

[scarletwoman]

137. There was a great post the other day quoting FDL: "If the insurance co.s are so EVIL, why are you

forcing me to become one of their customers?"

[Echo In Light]

54. k/r

[area51]

58. +1

"These people are hardened sociopaths..."

absolutely nails it. They're helping to kill 273 people each day in the U.S., for a figure of 100,000 deaths per year. And forcing us by law to buy their product is going to help? Absolute insanity.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

73. Kicking for telling it straight! nt

[DisgustedInMN]

74. K & R

[Uncle Joe]

79. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, bvar.:thumbsup:

[truedelphi]

89. Tomorrow my husband and I are forming an insurance company known as Vichy Care

Vichy Care will be announcing that they plan to meet the competition on an equal playing field, with one noticeable distinction.

We will deny our insured the services and treatments suggested by the doctors even faster than Cigna, Kaiser And Anthem combined

Say you need a quadruple bypass surgery. We will deny you that treatment within the first 45 minutes that the underwriting department hears about your need for said procedure.

No longer will you have to wait out an agonizing four or five day period to find out you are denied.

You will be denied right away!

And no longer will you have to spend most of your life fighting with our claims people.

As one of our valued insured, you will be issued a card with the claims number department on it: 1 800 Big DENY.

No matter how many times you call, you will be treated to an on going series of Enya-style lullabies, with the words, "Don't concern yourself - you are denied!" audibly heard in the background.

The other advantage of our insurance plan is that it will only cost you $ 1 a year in premiums.

And we guarantee that we will meet all the other aspects of the Big Insurers - for instance, did I just say that you will only be charged $ 1?

Yes I did. But if you are in the age group 49 to 61, you will be charged $ 3...

PLEASE SIGN UP NOW.

bIG dENY iNSURERS

WE DON'T DELIVER HEALTH CARE -WE COLLECT YOUR MONEY SO OTHER INSURERS CAN'T TOUCH IT!

Send all applications with a one dollar bill (a three dollar bill if you are 49 to 62)
to Vichy Care
160 Filbert Avenue
Sausalito CA 94565

VICHY CARE
CARING SO OTHERS DON'T HAVE TO.

[upi402]

92. lol +1 ^ n/t

[Vinca]

94. You need a catchy motto - how about "Immediate Denial for Immediate Peace of Mind?"

or "The insurance company you can count on for absolutely nothing." Hey . . . you'll probably be able to get government subsidies!

[truedelphi]

97. I take it that you want a postion in our Marketing Department

Please head over to www.lowwage.executiveleveljobs.com

And click under "Vichy" (on the left hand drop down menu) and then fill in your app.

No previous experience required.

However at some time, we may be issuing stock - so do hold on to your valid employee number (The lower the numebr the more preferred stock you will be entitled to.)

Our Annual Holiday retreat for 2010 will be held in Vanatua, so do keep the dates of Dec 10th to Dec 29th open. As long as you let my husband have Lady GaGa to himself, consider yourself invited.

[Vinca]

139. Count me in as a lobbyist. I want to woo Republicans with Chinese-made trinkets.

[truedelphi]

164. Consider it done. n/t

[bridgit]

98. Greetings! As a newly forming corporate entity smelting from the cauldron of shared denial...

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out: that Vichy Care is well positioned to option the services of - Apathy!

Apathy! - while experiencing a upwardly marked trajectory - has been in operation for a short period of time. Though by identifying the needs and desires for a greater union between spent kinetic release and mouse traps that trajectory has become exponential where Apathy! has been applied as a matter of focus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORqc1x3_Evg

There, you see, the case is already made and we've had Apathy! to thank all along so why not cha'ching that punk too?

In closing, however, I commend Vichy Care's $1 yearly premium business model. Were Apathy! to provide some factor more Apathy! as with a barter, or parley, in that money has no value unless or until you have some - would Apathy! be able to receive 100 years worth of your health care services for $75?

It is a win/win proposition for both Vichy Care and Apathy! Apathy! receives a volume break for health care services however presumed - and Vichy Care is able to deny Apathy! out of hand.

Here's looking forward, and thank you for your time we're Apathy! where here we say by way of a rocking, gently inaudible suggestion instead that is able to be layered, at the discretion of Vichy Care; within Enya-muzak - the 2nd most popular muzak other than Songs of The Humpback Whale,

"We're Apathy! If you gnaw your feet off today, we charge you less for suggesting that you do so tomorrow" :thumbsup:

[truedelphi]

100. As soon as I finish reading the "DO It Yourself Mergers" and other

Such books from Nolo Press, I will be working on the specifics of the contract between Apathy! and Vichy.

This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

Thank you for your efforts to improve our bottom line!

[bridgit]

126. You're most welcome, and do keep us in mind though remember we have a special...

on the diversion of Gumby Asparagus, a nescient form of below the radar deer tick able to circumvent spam filters; its just that we're too apathetic to run down to Kinkos and have it printed out :( Either way the future awaits :)






I thought your post at the top was way funny :hi:

[bridgit]

122. yeehaw!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

135. ROFL

And it has a $100,000 deductible, right?

[puebloknot]

171. And a stop loss in the same amount, per family member! nt

[puebloknot]

138. This makes me want to brush the dust off of my old insurance license ...

... and start calling folks!

Or maybe I'll start my own company and compete with you. I think I'll call it "Soylent Greed Insurance Company."

How's that, Sistuh?

[truedelphi]

163. that name is simply

Too ROTFL.

Refering you to Section 141 a, of the Insurance Commission Guidelines for the Fifty States, if any given LEGAL name of any insurance entity does cause a "spewing" by one of the customer class of heir morning coffee on computer screen, that name and the product it depicts may be denied a place in the market by said Insurance Commission.

See ya in court, Soylent Greed.

And one ore thing:

Do not get any clever ideas about what you plan to do with the bodies of the deceased!

[puebloknot]

170. Oh, wait! Didn't I tell you? I'm starting a new company dedicated to ...

... the green burial process. I'm going to market pine coffins and organic winding cloth for the last rites for the deceased.

Girl, you can make a nickle on almost anything! :)

(Actually, on a serious note, the green burial movement is taking on steam and is a good idea. I have a neighbor who is a contractor in Santa Fe, and he's losing his house -- the one he built with his own hands -- because there is no work in this area. So he's started building pine coffins for green burial. It's not his most ardent calling, but he's got kids to feed. And it's honest work.)

[dflprincess]

168. I'll sign up

at least I'll know what I'm getting with this!

[autorank]

179. roflmao

...memo to self, do NOT piss off TrueDelphi;)

[Autumn]

93. You nailed it .

Thanks for the post.

[jonathon]

103. Big recommend

[Stinky The Clown]

113. Careful, friend ...... Gumby gunna come bite your ass.

[hulka38]

114. Great post bvar22.

Thanks for the yucks you guys.

[onpatrol98]

115. So Much Honesty

I'm just love how honest they're willing to be with us. They want us to march young, HEALTHY, people into mandated private health care coverage.

Why???

They already know these younger people will be paying for a service they WON'T be using. When they talk about this cost sharing potential (insurance company representatives), you can almost see them salivating at the notion...like Count Blue Crossacula.

They never mention that they would be bringing in people who are less than healthy, also. They're so animated at the notion of all the young PAYING HEALTHY people...

Everyone definitely needs access to affordable, good health care. For some reason, I don't expect good behavior from health insurance companies, even with federal regulations.

I thought we were going to reign in Big Pharma...not make deals with them.

[Myrina]

117. Too late to rec but here's a big ole KICK!

:patriot: You speak the truth, my friend! :applause:

[Bryn]

118. K&R

[David Zephyr]

125. Kicking this up. I'm just sorry I can't recommend it.

Excellent and righteous rant. I agree with every word.

[Oilwellian]

140. K & wish I could R

[walldude]

175. Amazing isn't it. I've had a funny feeling since the election

that the people we worked to put in office actually thought we were as stupid as the fucking tea baggers. Yeah, piss on my head and tell me it's raining. I'm falling for that one.