Deliberately taught ignorance--stuff like this burns me up (and scares me)

[DFW]

http://rawstory.com/2010/03/creationists-museum-facts-evolution/

"They plan to become doctors, researchers and professors, but these students from Liberty University, an evangelical school, also believe God created the Earth in a week, some 6,000 years ago."

Oh, really? Despite all the physical evidence to the contrary? OK, what evidence do they offer as a counter-argument?
Ah, I see. An English translation of a Greek translation of a collection of folk tales and wisdom composed over the
course of a few centuries from the original Aramaic. THIS is their counter-argument to what our technology confirms.

They are not out to save our country. Their mission appears to be to dumb down our population, and can only make the
Russians and the Chinese applaud applaud their efforts. Who needs to bomb America with nukes? They are nuking the minds
of their next generation already.

Falwell was slime, and his "university" is slime.

Fundamentalist Christian creationists are Taliban with a different dress code.

[seabeyond]

1. my brother advocates teaching "both" sides. he is smart. a believer in honesty... truth

and he says, both sides should be taught in school. i am flabbergasted. i ask him, how do you bring a lie in school as an academic possibility. we know it isnt truth. evidence, proof, facts show earth more than 6000. the only way can be in school is if it is on people that believe in creationism as a truth when clear evidence shows it is not true.

somehow, he can twist his mind to believe we should teach as a possibility even knowing it isnt true.

i dont get that type of twisted thinking. or people who believe and willingly live in illusion, lie

[Solomon]

5. Ask him how he is with teaching evolution in Sunday school and

bible classes.

[DFW]

7. Does he also believe in teaching Santa Claus as the "other side" to the Nativity?

Sounds just as "even-handed."

[Jim__]

15. Is your brother a fundamentalist, or does he have some other reason for thinking this? - n/t

[seabeyond]

17. no. he is a fox news watching, macho manly man, repug. he doesnt do church

but likes and respect and appreciates.... yet challenges too.

i dont get it.

like i said, so many things he is down to earth type guy, mellow. and so into/demanding truth.

i do have a fundie woman friend who believes 6000 and she is highly educated and open minded in other areas. we were at college campus museum, and at end of tour huge display laying out millions of years of earth. i asked her in front of this huge room of facts.... how can you say, .... 6000 yrs? i believe. that is it. no discussion or trying to convince or reconcile.

makes. no. sense.

[BlooInBloo]

18. Your description of him is contradictory.

[seabeyond]

20. yes it is. that is the odd thing about it and why so hard for me to even try to

understand.

and hey you.... :hi: . long time.... hope all is well

[The Genealogist]

24. Religion is not a valid "side" in this argument

Religion does not belong in a science classroom. Ever. Religion and science are two different creatures altogether. Your brother is being disingenuous in his arguments. What little pseudo-science there is connected to creationism is dominated by confirmation biases and other major flaws. Science does not start with forgone conclusions and work back to make the evidence fit. Creationism is, on the best of days, a laughable pseudo-science, and on the worst of days a dangerously serious impediment to progress and real understanding of how the universe works.

[seabeyond]

28. i agree. my family lives in a world of it in panhandle of texas. amazes us. nt

[The Genealogist]

29. I love the panhandle landscape

For me, much of it holds a rugged, untamed kind of beauty I have never seen elsewhere. That said, there are some scary ideas that come out of the Panhandle. This "pastor" who has his little holy militia that maps out "librul" places to attack is a chilling example of a bad ideology embodied.

[seabeyond]

46. the skies. i am not sure what it is, the openness

flatness, high elevation.... but beautiful skies here. i have lived all over, but the skies are the best here. i feel like we are a part of them

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Your brother's an idiot and a liar.

[Betty Karlson]

2. Allow for a few corrections:

It's not an English translation of a Greek translation of Aramaic, but an English translation of a Hebrew text.

And the problem of tehse people is: they apply present-day concepts of "truth" to a text that was written when said concepts did not as yet exist.

Because that Genesis book is full of truth, just not the kind of truth that would pass for emperical statements these days.

The text essentially says: first God separated light from matter, then He created the sea and the dryland and the athmosphere, the He created the first life in the sea, then life on land,and so on.

Most modern science will confirm this is broadly the order in which events evolved. The only thing is that when God says "one day" He may as well mean "1000 years" or "an immeasurable period of time". Strangely, that stuff is not tought at Liberty University, even if it would help those young people to understand their Lord better.

It's a shame.

[DFW]

13. I'll go along with the translation if you want

I have friends here in Europe who know Aramaic, and gave me that order, but say, for argument's sake you are correct.

But even if science confirms the chronological order as laid out in Genesis, I see it as a fundamental fallacy to
take for granted that there is 1.) only one God, or 2.) there is any God, or 3.) that if there is a God, that said
deity necessarily communicates with selected people earth to give them the means to tell others what to believe.

Faith, belief, implies, by definition, not knowing for sure. I have no quarrel with anyone believing anything unless
they believe their version of faith is better than someone else's, and therefore worth teaching to others. There are
many religions. There is no one true religion, unless they are all the one true religion, and that ain't likely.

It is certainly a shame that any "university" thinks that their one made-up version of some faith should take
precedence over logic and the laws of physics, I'm with you there.

[happyslug]

14. Yes, that was the point brought up by William Jennings Bryan in the Monkey Trial in the 1920s

It is clear that the seven days was metaphysically, for how can you have a "day" before you have the earth and sun? Yes, Fundamentalists of the 1920s were fully willing to accept evolution and that the world was millions of years old. They had a problem with it from a social point of view (i.e. what we know call Social Darwinism which most Fundamentalists of the 1920s rejected and what most Progressives and liberals in the US reject to this day).

The real question is why the switch over the last 80 years? Byran's testimony that the Bible is more a series of stories to teach people how to live NOT actual events has been rejected by Fundamentalists since the 1960s (Bryan also pointed out, citing Einstein, that is is from the relative position of those people writing what happened NOT what happened in reality).

Fundamentalists may even view Christ's Parables as factual stories instead of the parables Christ told them as and intended them to be understood as. Parables was how most philosophers made their points in the ancient world, and many people still use them. The Bible is NOT so much a history book (especially Genesis) as a collection of stories on how to live.

[mr blur]

16. Well, so what?

Doesn't make it any more "true". Or rational. Or "real". It's a fairy story, which ever way you look at it.

[3324SS]

39. If they Actually Understand their Lord Better

They would have nothing to do with Liberty University or any other fundy school.

[Gman]

3. Why can't someone file some kind of consumer product fraud lawsuit

Liberty takes money fraudulently on the pretense of an education.

[rurallib]

9. just wait til these people are doctors - whoa boy!

[NightWatcher]

11. excuse me Dr. why are you drilling a hole in that man's skull? To let the evil out, Nurse. Duh

[StarlightGold]

22. I wouldn't want

to be examined by anyone who thinks that regressing into the Dark-Ages is a-ok. Are these doctors going to be asking me why their female patients don't have a chaperon? Crazy, I know, but I put nothing past them.

[Bitwit1234]

4. I have nothing against religion but

do you notice in every crisis in the world, religion is at the root. You find that the people who want CONTROL of everyone else are the ones who push religion. Look at Cotton Mather way back when look at the mess in the colonies because they pushed religion. And they wanted to control the people. Look at the Salem Witch Trials, religion was at the root. The one pushing for trials etc was the religious community.

They say that more wars and contention in the world has been caused by trying to foster religion on to the backs of people who don't want it, than plagues, famines etc.

[lunatica]

12. Maybe you're better than me because I have a lot against religion

but I agree with everything else you say, and could add much more. Even Bush tried to sell his war by claiming God told him to do it. And Bin Laden claimed the same thing. God sure is a war monger.

[Solomon]

6. I read the book by Kevin Roose I forget the name of it but he

took a semester off from Brown University to attend Liberty University and then wrote a book about it.

[piratefish08]

25. The Unlikely Disciple - A Sinner's Semester at America's Holiest University

The Unlikely Disciple - A Sinner's Semester at America's Holiest University
by Kevin Roose

http://www.amazon.com/Unlikely-Disciple-Semester-Americ...


Great book. I just read it a few weeks ago...........

[LibertyLover]

32. There's a new book just out about a journalist

attending Thomas Road Baptish Church, the Falwells' church, undercover for almost 2 years. It's called "In the Land of Believers" by Gina Welch.

[marmar]

8. Gotta keep 'em stupid to keep 'em under control.

nt

[DFW]

21. There is much to that

I used to visit the former East Germany on occasion, and the first thing they searched you for was western newspapers, and if they found any on you, they were immediately confiscated.

[rurallib]

10. It is like one dark ages wasn't enough

religion will lead us into yet another round if they can.

[laughingliberal]

19. Was it Al Gore who noted a Republican opponent was building a bridge to the 13th century?

I seem to remember a line like that in the 2000 campaign. It was perfect!

[hootinholler]

23. A talibornagain madras. n/t

[Jim__]

26. Even what they do teach, they don't teach well.

For instance, a teacher at the university: "In order to be the best creationist, you have to be the best evolutionist you can be," said Marcus Ross, who teaches paleontology and says of Adam and Eve: "I feel they were real people, they were the first people."

And a biology major: "There is no scientific, biological genetic way that this, this rat, could become you," he said, seemingly scandalized by the proposition.

He certainly wouldn't make a very good "evolutionist."

[kctim]

30. How does ones belief in creationism

affect ones ability to treat the sick, research disease or teach math?

[slampoet]

31. Aids, the common cold, Influenza, bacterial meningitis, ....All these diseases EVOLVE

and the treatments and cures for them also have to evolve.


You can't responsibly use antibiotics w/o believing in evolution.

Does anyone think that God creates drug resistant infections randomly?

[kctim]

34. So you are saying

all who deny human evolution deny ALL types of evolution?

[DFW]

37. Evolution is one concept, not ten

It applies to all living organisms (or none, if you lean that way). Either you believe it happens, and that includes
humans (unless you don't consider humans to be living organisms), or you don't believe it happens at all. Making a distinction
is like saying that global warming is responsible for a few glaciers breaking off from Antarctica, but only those glaciers
that I specify, and not the others.

[kctim]

41. I don't think you can lump

it all into such a nice little box like that. But hell, I'm an atheist and don't follow religion enough to know the differing beliefs and the reasons for them. If a person can do their job, I personally don't give a rats ass if one believes in creationism or reincarnation.
The disdain for the Christian religion on here is interesting to me and I was just asking questions.

[slampoet]

42. ALL religions have a creation myth.

Stop looking for victims.

[DFW]

43. There is some disdain for Christianity, as there is for most religions here

But that is usually a personal view, and is often derived from contact with extremists of all religions, or else
personal suffering at the hands of religious fanaticism or hypocrisy.. No one here (that I have seen) is in the
slightest offended by someone who quietly harbors some belief, and keeps it to themselves. But when someone, here
or elsewhere, starts to say they demand that this or that notion be taught as a viable theory because it appears
in some man-written book or other, and justifies violent action against others, whether a lynching in Mississippi
or a suicide bombing in Israel, or forcing mythology to be taught to school children (not to mention university-level
students!), or forbidding a woman the right to an abortion (while allowing unrestricted action of her partner), then
yes, tempers rise. When it reaches the level of the absurd, such as what is taught at the so-called "Liberty University,"
then my temper rises with them.

[kctim]

49. Thanks, I see your points

I just don't really understand the hostility towards the creationists themselves, simply because of a personal belief. A personal belief that really has no bearing on how they can perform their job any more than any other personal belief could. Granted, some do try to push it onto others, but I have no problem with telling them I am not interested and they leave me alone about it.

Harboring such resentment and then signaling out a particular group for their beliefs, just seems so petty. Especially when there are much more pressing matters that need dealt with.

[DFW]

50. I don't think the hostility is towards all creationists per se

Any more than there is hostility against children for believing in Santa Claus.

A privately held religious belief seldom affects a job performance, unless that job is one that holds
the life of others in its power (see my comment on the Egyptian Airlines co-pilot whose beliefs caused
216 others to die violently). I have seen other exceptions to this, too. I know a company back home in Texas
that had to let an employee go because he got so caught-up in religious fanaticism that he started spending
most of his time in the office trying to convert his co-workers to evangelical Christianity. It not only
affected his job performance, but it offended most of his many Mexican-American co-workers, who were either
Catholic or Atheist. His wife left him, and he became useless. As it is, out of pity and charity, the company
owners, acknowledging his past performance with the company, kept him on as an employee on the books at a nominal
salary for many months so that he could continue his health insurance while looking for another job. The company
owners are not at all religious, but have a lot more Christian charity than many so-called Christians. I know them
both well, which is why I know the details.

The hostility toward Creationists arises when they demand that their views be taught in schools or be used as
moral, political or scientific guidelines and standards--in short, demand that their views be imposed on others.
No one would slam you for believing in the Great Pumpkin as long as you don't interpret your belief as
mandating that you make others believe the word of the Great Pumpkin. The creationists that inspire derision
are the ones that wish to impose on others their belief that what they read in the Bible really and truly is
literally the word of a God, thereby negating the possibility that any other set of beliefs have validity. Since
the Bible is the word of men--many men, over the course of centuries, and can't be proven, it holds little sway
for those who prefer a more tangible reason to believe in something. For many, it more than a little bit of a stretch.
Creationists may believe that what they read in the Bible really is the word of God, but they have a very difficult
explaining just how they know this to be so. It's not like they met God at a book signing at Borders last weekend.

In short, creationists are not derided because they say, "this is what we believe," any more that the child
is derided for believing in Santa Claus or the Great Pumpkin. They are derided when they say, "this is what
we believe, and demand that it be given equal weight with not only other beliefs, but with any concrete scientific
evidence to the contrary."

Atheists don't demand that schools teach that there is absolutely no God. They only want schools not to teach
that there necessarily is one. I find that reasonable enough. By the same token, schools do not teach that there
is no God, they just don't teach that there necessarily is one. I find reasonable enough as well. Creationists
demand that it be taught that there is a God, and by coincidence, it just happens to be their version. I do not
find that reasonable.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. People who deny human evolution are fucked in the head.

If they admit that evolution of, say, bacteria occurs but not humans, they're just dishonest dicks trying to have their cake and eat it too.

[SidDithers]

33. Anyone applying to Medical School from Liberty University...

should be automatically rejected.

Let 'em become homeopaths instead.

Sid

[DFW]

36. Anyone going to a doctor "educated" at Liberty University.....

.....had better REALLY know how to pray!!!!!!!!!

[EFerrari]

35. I've decided they're the Klan with better tailors. n/t

[la_chupa]

38. if this bothers you

take a look at what they're putting in home schooling textbooks

[DemoTex]

40. I was crossing the Grand Canyon at 35,000 feet with a Fundy as my co-pilot ..

"See that down there?," asks the Fundy.

"Yep," sez I. "The Grand Canyon - what a view!"

"Know how old it is?," again, the Fundy.

"I think I do, but why don't YOU tell ME," I responded, smelling a rat.

"I bet you think it is millions of years old, don't you?" The Fundy baited me.

"Just tell me how old it is," I said.

"OK. The Grand Canyon is no more than six thousand years old," said the Fundy. "It was created during the Great Flood. Noah's Ark and all that."

"Right," I said. "Why don't you calculate how much of that oh-so-young fossil fuel we will have remaining in our tanks at LAX assuming a Divinely-ordered 30-minute holding pattern between here and Civet .. get back to me when you finish the math."

[DFW]

45. If his math was as good as his geology

I think you were risking your life flying with that guy as a co-pilot.

[DemoTex]

47. On our next trip Fundy told me that he was not afraid to die.

That's when I started "avoid-bidding" him on a monthly basis. I don't want to fly with ANYONE who is "not afraid to die."

BTW: His math was not so hot, but I already knew the answer. We landed at LAX with plenty of fuel.

[DFW]

48. Never forget that Egyptian Airlines co-pilot

The one who crashed his airliner with 216 other people into the Atlantic, thinking he was going to meet Allah
and be rewarded for his mass murder. Fundies are fundies, and no matter WHAT religion they adhere to, I wouldn't
want one as a co-pilot of any plane I was in. Ever.

The only thing that all those people in that airliner met for sure was a violent, untimely death. The rest is
speculation. Maybe Allah was indeed waiting for the whacko. Maybe it was Jesus, and maybe it was the Great Spirit.
But maybe it was nothing at all. The guy had no right to make 216 other people participate in his little experiment
to find out, and educators have no right to try to make students believe something similar is a valid scientific theory.
It may be a valid religion to some, and that's fine with me. Faith is faith. Just don't include me when you want to
go find out for yourself, before Mother Nature is ready for me. If Allah, Jesus, the Great Spirit or the Great Pumpkin
is waiting in some posthumous receiving line to bid us welcome to a fully conscious hereafter, good for you. I'm in no
rush to find out.

[ibegurpard]

44. I thought this thread was going to be about charter schools.