So I was arguing with a DLC type about Kucinich...

[Ardent15]

He said,, "Kucinich is not very popular in his district. Obama won it by 60 percent while Kucinich was reelected by 57 percent."

He also said that "This health care bill will cut costs, cover more Americans, have tough regulations on insurance companies, etc. The perfect is the enemy of the good," and stuff like "Kucinich will have thousands of dead Americans on his hands if he doesn't vote for this bill."

What are some good counterarguments to this? I can think of a few, but I'd like DU's input.

[The Magistrate]

1. Your Problem, Sir

Is that in the present political situation, there really are no good reasons for a Democrat to vote against this Bill.

[grantcart]

3. Good to see you back Sir.

[JeffR]

4. I second grantcart's salute.

The more you're here, the higher the collective IQ of this site will go. And it needs all kinds of help these days.

[NYC_SKP]

5. JeffR and grantcart speak for me.

So glad, Sir, that you're recovering from the procedure and able to post here again.

:patriot:

[Edweird]

9. Unless you count the fact that it's RW garbage that rewards the very entities

that have destroyed our healthcare system with a government enforced monopoly. Corporations that exist solely to profit from denying you care. There is that tiny little issue. More of what caused the problem isn't much of a solution.

[The Magistrate]

12. That Is A Fun And Cheerful Noise, Sir, But It Is Quite Beside The Point At Present

The political situation demands the thing be passed, like it or not....

"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable."

[girl gone mad]

15. I think a better explanation is in order.

This bill manages to be both disastrous ad unpalatable.

[The Magistrate]

16. In The Run Up To An Election, Ma'am

It is better even to be thought wrong-headed than ineffectual. Failure to pass 'a health care bill' will brand the Democrats irrevocably as ineffectual, and the result will be Republican majorities in Congress.

If the Bill is passed, now, the opposition to it will subside in coming months. A good deal of it is artificially whipped up by the radical right, and a good deal of it also comes from people like us, who do not think it goes nearly far enough. The latter group will still rally to the Party in the autumn, and many in the former group, seeing that the world has not actually ended, and learning that there are some real benefits in the bill, will come down off the edge of hysteria to which they have been driven.

[Edweird]

17. It is EXACTLY the point at present. Obama campaigned on a Public Option.

He is now pushing what nobody - except the insurance companies - wants. It is the opposite of what he promised. If you believe that passing terrible legislation is somehow a 'win' I think you are seriously mistaken. Write it off as 'noise' if you want, but there are many many people out there with horror stories about insurance companies that are appalled at this. This will not 'just go away'.

BTW, I'm glad you are feeling well enough to resume posting. We clearly disagree on this subject, but I have always enjoyed reading your posts in the past.

[The Magistrate]

21. Hell, Sir, That Is Not Even Half Of It

President Obama during the primaries campaigned against individual mandates, as proposed by Sen. Clinton, and during the general election, campaigned against taxing health insurance benefits as proposed by Sen. McCain. Both stands doubtless got him some votes. This bill is deeply disappointing to me, being far from what seems to me the best solution to the situation, namely the extension of Medicare into a universal program. But it is still clear to me that in the present political situation, the consequences of not passing it are worse than those of passing it, by a long sight.

I appreciate your kind words in closing, Sir. It is likely our differences are less than meets the eye, taken as a whole....

[Edweird]

22. We both want the same thing, we disagree on the path there.

Which, incidentally, is what makes the whole "If ur against teh bill go join teh teabaggerz" nonsense amusing.

I see the Senate bill as being the 'wrong thing to do'. People will still be denied care. People will still find care unaffordable. People will still go bankrupt because they got sick or hurt. Except now, it will have been 'dealt with', and we will all be told how we got what we wanted so 'STFU'.

Given the way things changed, I find 'We'll fix it later' absolutely devoid of any credibility whatsoever. Adding to that the fact that all the 'whipping' has been towards the Right, never the Left.

In this instance, I personally believe that 'no thing' would be better than 'the wrong thing'.
1994 wasn't that long ago.

Yes, we do agree far more often than we disagree. Even in this instance.

[grantcart]

2. DK was successful in getting a Museum of Ukraine established.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=218791&mesg_id=218791

[G_j]

6. why did they let Lieberman and numerous others leverage their vote

as they demanded concessions?

Kucinich is demanding the one thing that most people want, a good public option.

[ChicagoSuz219]

11. Public Option may still find it's way into the bill...

...he's holding out for Single Payer.

Either way... it's time for him to stop grandstanding & start supporting this bill. We can always enhance it down the line. Voting NO is voting for Status Quo, same as Republicans.

[Ozymanithrax]

7. The Tea Party has a lot of arguments that support Denis' position...

Try there.

But as for the 57% saying he isn't popular. What a stupid argument. Bush lost the vote to Gore in 2000, and took the presidency on a 5-4 decision SCOTUS. That was unpopular. Denis is quite popular in Ohio.

Popularity has nothing to do with Kucinich acting in an unethical way in his failure to support the most progressive health care bill America has seen since Medicare and Medicaid were enacted.

Those of us who support this bill are not DLC types, thank you very much.

[Edweird]

8. Fail.

"Most progressive" - give me a break. It's RW garbage. The teabaggers hate it because it isn't far right enough.

Nixon/McCain/Romney mandates aren't suddenly 'progressive' just because somebody with a (D) behind their name pushes it.

Candidate Obama was very articulate and logical when he rebuked this crap.

[Ozymanithrax]

13. You should look up the definition of Progressive in a good encyclopedia of politics.

Kucinich isn't a progressive.

And this bill will help millions. It changes things for the good.

[Edweird]

18. So 'good' encyclopedias define 'progressive' as RW? Really?

[ChicagoSuz219]

10. Sorry... there are none. n/t

[MiniMe]

14. At this point in the process, if this bill doesn't pass healthcare reform will go away,

For a very long time. I understand being an idealist, but the dems were lucky that this bill was passed in the Senate before Scott Brown came to town. It isn't perfect by any means, especially without the public option or single payer

[Sebastian Doyle]

20. And if this bill DOES pass, REAL reform will go away forever

The DLC will put on their padded flightsuits and stand in front of United Health Insurance's corporate office under a huge "Mission Accomplished" banner, and REAL health care reform will never be spoken of again.

Why would it be, with everyone "covered" by corporate insurance?

[MiniMe]

25. I agree about the corporate give away

So they didn't pass anything in 1993 because of some of those principles, and see how far we have come with passing meaningful legislation? Errrr, exactly nowhere in almost 20 years. I blame Max Baucas for tying the legislation up for far too long, and getting rid of meaningful legislation, he tied it up way too long. At this point, we don't have 60 dem votes for cloture on anything.However, they didn't have the votes for meaningful legislation, like it or not. The dems couldn't even pass an extension to unemployment.

I don't want to have to wait 20 years for another try at it, although by that time I will be on Medicare if it still exists.

[mmonk]

19. Obama had not yet served a day in the Office of the Presidency

when he was elected. Kucinich has served quite a while and was reelected to his office.

[Toasterlad]

23. After That First Sentence, Your Only Option Is To Back Away Slowly

You don't want to get into a fight with a mentally challenged individual. That's a no-win scenario, right there.

[joeybee12]

24. Ask simple questions like "How"...How will it cut cots and "What"

What are the tough regulations and HOW How will those regulations be enforced. Be prepared for some sputtering.