The words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance are an appeal to patriotism, not religion

[Fumesucker]

And do not violate the separation of church and state.

That is the legally binding opinion of the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/03/11/BAS71CEC9F.DTL&tsp=1

I think it's quite possibly the most intellectually dishonest court opinion I've ever heard.

What does the phrase "Under God" in the Pledge have to do with patriotism?

[piratefish08]

1. 'under god' was added in 1954 for no reason other than to separate us from the 'godless commies'

fucking McCarthy era........

[Fumesucker]

2. I was going to put that in my OP but decided to leave it uncluttered..

Thanks..

[hansberrym]

23. Would you have prefered that we joined the godless commies?

Given that the pledge was started by a commited socialist, turnabout is fair play.

If we are going to have a pledge, it ought at least define American values(we hold these truths...), rather than one that merely fosters obedience to state power.

[warm regards]

35. Exactly...and the nature of demagogic politics will never allow for it's removal.

Thus, I fail to see why so much time and court $$$ are wasted on the effort.

[Fumesucker]

37. Becuase it is an insult to both the religious and non-religious alike?

To the religious because the court just concluded that the reference to "God" has nothing to do with religion and to the non-religious because that is clearly a lie?

Edited for clarity..

[warm regards]

38. It is a tragic insult; there is no doubt about it. But, there is that age old adage that tells us

to have the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Those who bring these lawsuits do not have the wisdom to know the difference.

[Fumesucker]

40. Perhaps they were just naive enough to believe that our courts could be impartial..

I mean justice is *supposed* to be blind, eh?

[MellowDem]

46. They were naive... nt

[warm regards]

56. Unfortunately, justice sometimes follows the polls.

...and election returns.

[upi402]

51. False. They have the courage to change the things they can

Unless the corrupted legal system decides to vacate the Bill of Rights;

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

[warm regards]

55. Congress has not established a state religion.

The pledge is not legally binding.

[3324SS]

3. I have REFUSED to Say or Stand for the Pledge

for years, more people need to do it.

[DefenseLawyer]

4. The whole concept of a "pledge of allegiance" is anti-American

"under God" or not, having everyone stand and take a public loyalty oath is fascist.

[Fumesucker]

5. It was actually written by a socialist..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

Although I agree that a public pledge isn't particularly compatible with the ideals of a truly free country.

[MellowDem]

47. Nothing makes it fascist...

anymore than it makes it communist or any other ideology out there. Some would argue that it rings familiar of those ideologies and the rather homicidal regmies that represented them though. But pledges of allegiance aren't necessarily a bad thing. The only hard thing is to have a pledge that everyone would agree to, which is pretty much impossible. What would make it truly wrong and closer to those fascist and communist governments were to be if we forced by law everyone to take this pledge.

[Toots]

6. If you don't believe in god you are unpatriotic

:shrug: in their eyes anyway..

[Fumesucker]

7. Well, that's what George HW Bush thought anyway.. n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

42. Exactly; it effectively equates patriotism with religiosity

Of all the buzz-terms of the past few decades, the most onerous one to me is "ceremonial deism".

[sarge43]

8. So. If a person isn't a monotheist, s/he can't be a patriot?

[Fumesucker]

12. Apparently so according to this court.. n/t

[sarge43]

14. Well damn. So much for 21 years, 5 months and 10 days of military service.

I'll say again, patriotism is like sex, money and faith; if you got it, you don't have to run your mouth about it. Talk's cheap and easy.

[The Wizard]

9. Where's Zeus

when you need a real god?
Some people say Zeus was a hermaphrodite.
One nation under Zeus. It makes fundies crazy.

[Fumesucker]

10. Hey Zeus..

Sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself.. :)

[evilkumquat]

27. "Jesus"...? Do I LOOK Puerto Rican to you?

Heh.

[piratefish08]

15. Thor is my Master. Big hammers end debate.

[sarge43]

21. That hammer makes a great lightening rod, kid. So saith Zeus, Storm Master.

:evilgrin:

[Hekate]

36. Gimme that old time religion

:eyes:

[KittyWampus]

11. -IF- something like that has to be there, I prefer "guided by Providence".

[Fumesucker]

13. The point is though that *nothing* was there until 1954..

That's when "under God" was added to the pledge, at the height of the McCarthy era.

[ThomWV]

16. The "separation of church and state" has nothing to do with Pledges, it refers to Law

the Congress shall pass no law ....

Put your hand over your heart and repeat after me ..."this pledge is not a law, this pledge is not a law"

[Fumesucker]

18. Not exactly..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

The Pledge is predominantly sworn by children in public schools in response to state laws requiring the Pledge to be offered.

[sarge43]

19. WV State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943),

the Supremes "declared that any official effort to prescribe orthodoxy in politics or religion, or to force citizens against their will formally to profess adherence to such orthodoxy, is a violation of the 14th Amendment, which incorporates the substance of the First."

The Constitution of the United States with Case Summaries, 4th ed, editor Edward Conrad Smith.

[PurityOfEssence]

43. If it is required in an institution funded by a law passed in Congress, then it's a violation

Same thing with the faith-based bullshit: when Congress passes a law that funds this crap, it is endorsing the concept of religion specifically with the act of creating a law.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

While we're at it, that law has NOTHING to do with preferring one sect over another, it's about the very concept itself. To say that we, as a government, agree that there is a god and to pass laws providing for the printing of money with that message is expressly against the letter and spirit of the law. Funding public schools that require this to be recited is the same kind of infraction.

[salguine]

17. God is MURKIN, y'damn commie pinko lib'rul sosh'list pinko homer-sex-shul commie pinko!

[hansberrym]

20. What possible secular purpose could there be in acknowledging that our rights come from God...

and not government?

Perhaps if Judge Reinhardt read and took to mind the writings of Madison and Jefferson (Memorial and Remonstronce, Virginia Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom) the answer would not escape him.

He might even learn something(via Memorial and Remonstronce) about the meaning of the words “free state” and how they relate to the rights of individuals v. government power.

[BanzaiBonnie]

22. One Nation, all together

Those are the words I use, instead of "under God". It fits right in and does not hurt the rhythm that we are all used to.


That said, this ruling is pure crap.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

24. Bullshit! If it was patriotic it would be One Nation OVER God.

(Half-kidding... but only half)

[L0oniX]

25. Fuck patriotism! Patriotism is for idiots and fools.

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in ev’ry age. – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. – Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong.” – James Russell Lowell

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and “My country never wrong” is an even more dangerous maxim than “My country, right or wrong.” – Bertrand Russell

Patrioism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. – George Bernard Shaw

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. – H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. – Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism–it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. – Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and “patriotism” . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots – Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. – Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. – William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. – Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. – J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. – Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. – Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering.


3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. – Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. – Luis Buñuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but your own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. – Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! – David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. – Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be “American” before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. – Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. – George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. – Thomas Corwin

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[salguine]

31. You missed a good one:

“But you know as well as I, patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either ‘my country, right or wrong,’ which is infamous, or ‘my country is always right,’ which is imbecile.”—Patrick O’Brian

[L0oniX]

32. Added to my list.

[Wizard777]

26. One nation under We The People with liberty and justice for all.

Our pledge of allegiance can't any more Constitutional than that. In the US Constitution our nation (Powers of Government) literally comes under the words We The People. Then comes the bill of rights. One nation under We The People puts everything into it's proper perspective.

[Fresh_Start]

29. wouldn't saying god's name without meaning it

be using god's name in vain?

Isn't that a sin?
So they want us to sin every time we say the pledge of allegiance?

[patrice]

34. I think it is the sin of Blasphemy, because, usually, those who say the word "God" are referring to

THEIR god, the one that they agree with in all things, and who agrees with them, ergo the one whose mind they share, and most especially share on the matter of Amerikan Exceptionalism, which translates to America = God (so we can do whatever the fuck we want to whomever we want). Blasphemy is woven throughout our history as a nation, but if the last 8 years aren't clear enough on this fact, nothing else ever will be.

It's a hard hard thing to say, but I MUST question myself any/every- time I would pledge allegiance to such a transgression of Truth.

[donco6]

30. Ridiculous.

Even a cursory reading tells you "under God" refers to "one nation" - i.e., we are all subject to God's law. Pure religious BS.

[ecstatic]

33. I won't recite the pledge, with or without those words nt

[comrade snarky]

39. The only thing I like about the Pledge of Allegiance

Is watching the neo-confederates get all balls up at the "One nation, indivisible" part. They hate that!

Otherwise it's a complete waste of time.

[jmowreader]

41. My favorite part of the Pledge...

is when they get to the "one nation" line and the wingers SCREAM out the "under God" passage.

Got news for ya, kids: if you don't believe in God already, saying God's name is not going to magically instill in you the desire to run right out and join a church. And if you actually believe in God--if you have a true, deep-rooted love of the Holy Spirit--the absence of His name in the Pledge wouldn't make your faith evaporate.

I think all this God-God-God shit is coming from people who weren't raised up in the faith, but found it later in life and probably found religion because they were in deep shit. These folks' faith is as thin as a page from their Bible, so to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow nothing can come between them and Jesus.

[Fumesucker]

45. A lot of people are surprised when they find out just how many extreme fundies are former fuckups..

And often major fuckups..

I know a couple of them like that and it seems like the worse fuckup they were the bigger and more obnoxious fundie they become..

But a lot of them were brought up in religion but moved away from it when they started fucking up..

It's pretty clear when you look at the divorce and out of wedlock birth statistics and see that the more fundie the church the more divorces and illegitimate kids there are that a great many of these folks haven't really changed all that much at the core.

[jmowreader]

54. A lot of people go to church for social reasons, not religious

The devout call it "taking your clothes to church." You go not because you're certain the Great Sky Man is going to throw you in hell when you die if you DON'T go to church, but because all your friends go to church and that's where you see them every week.

On edit: This is why excommunication--being thrown out of the church--was such a powerful threat in the 19th century, especially in small towns. There wasn't anything else to do except maybe a saloon.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. I don't care. I'm going to continue to urge everyone to say "Under Bob".

[saltpoint]

48. You realize of course that if you spell 'Under God' backwards, it says

"Paul is dead."

No, wait. Does it?

I guess not.

Nevermind.

[upi402]

49. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

An obvious violation of the Bill of Rights.

The rule of law is vacated. Do as you like America, if you have the power of force. Is that what we should be reading into all this?

[hansberrym]

53. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment is not at odds with the current Pledge of Allegiance

or James Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance", Thomas Jeffersons "A Virginia Bill for Religious Freedom", or the Declaration of Independence.

It is the absurdly broad interpretation of the Establishment Clause urged by Mr. Newdou that is at odds with the texts and historical facts. Would Mr Newdou argue with a straight face that Jefferson's Bill For Religious Freedom, which ensured religious freedom and forbade the establishment of religion, was itself a violation of the Establishment Clause because it stated that almighty God was the source of our rights?

From 1776 to 1785, Jefferson worked to have legislation enacted to forbid the establishment of religion in Virginia. Madison also worked to have this legislation passed, and just a few years later Madison initiated the Bill of Rights to the US Constitution.

It is absurd to hold that the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution is something completely different than what Madison and Jefferson wrote, and what the Courts have relied on since Everson vs. Board of Education (1947) as the best evidence as to the meaning of the establishment clause. If Jefferson is not to be relied on for the meaning of the establishment clause, what then of the "Wall of Separation" doctrine?



http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html

The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom
Thomas Jefferson, 1786

Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power...



Try this mind experiment:
Suppose next month the legislature of the State of Virginia were to pass Thomas Jefferson's "Virginia Bill for Religious Freedom" in its original language. Would the courts would rule it unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause?

[Fumesucker]

57. But do you agree with the court that the words "under God" relate to patriotism

And not religion?

Keep in mind that for some Americans the words might as well say "under the Invisible Pink Unicorn" for all the meaning they have.

[anonymous171]

50. The God of the bible would despise the American state. nt

[GeorgeGist]

52. I doubt God agrees