Teachers, Are You With Obama On His And duncan's Education Policy?

[Dinger]

Poll question: Teachers, Are You With Obama On His And duncan's Education Policy?

I posted this as it relates to this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=389&topic_id=7908126&mesg_id=7908155

[Orlandodem]

1. I call on the NEA and AFT to withhold money and an endorsement in the 2012 election.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. I am an AFT delegate and I plan on demanding that at our national convention

unless Obama apologizes to teachers and reverses his education policies.

[donco6]

2. It's a disaster from any angle. n/t

[Orlandodem]

3. He can't be trusted to be president after 2012!

There is virtually no rhetoric which will change my mind. Actions speak louder than words and his actions make him worthless to me.

[spanone]

83. bwahahahahaaa

[MoonRiver]

4. The whole problem, imho,

is with the draconian and hideously unfair property tax system this country utilizes for funding public schools. Forcing stricter federal standards, increased hours in the school week, increased school days per year, etc. will not solve the problem. Obama should be pushing for a federal law outlawing the elitist property tax system.

[Catshrink]

6. Good points.

Schools in wealthier areas aren't having some of the problems that schools in poorer areas are. Wonder why that is? It's the underlying economic inequality with all its ills.

[MoonRiver]

12. Absolutely.

I've worked in both types of schools. The difference is huge.

[mzteris]

49. thus this part

And it would seek to strengthen provisions in current law that require states to make sure their most effective teachers are distributed equitably among high- and low-poverty schools, such as by providing more reporting and transparency.

[Jefferson23]

33. +100

[Catshrink]

5. No

His approach so far is to target impoverished schools, blame and fire the teachers, and give the schools over to corporatations. This does not address the underlying problems causing students in these schools to underperform. Until that happens, the results will be the same, if not worse.

Does he really think these corporate wonks will do what needs to be done to help these kids get on rack? Will they forego some of their profits to provide meals for the kids? A medical clinic for them? Their families? Help families find employment? Right. :rofl:

Obama here's a clue, since you're having trouble getting one: ask teachers how to improve educational outcomes, not corporate hacks or those who have no idea how a classroom works.

[Dinger]

7. That Deserves It's Own Thread Catshrink

:thumbsup: :hi:

[sandnsea]

9. No, it really doesn't. It's total bullshit.

How about the thread about the Urban School in Chicago that has all of its students going to college, students who couldn't pass one single achivement test when they started the school a few years ago. Students where NOTHING changed at home, but everything changed in the classroom.

It IS NOT all the parents. Teachers have been teaching poor and second language kids for decades. They all of a sudden can't anymore? Ridiculous.

[donco6]

24. We've done that in our low-income public schools

Here:

http://www.denverpost.com/politics/ci_9408325

This is one of my schools. The rest do a good job, too. But they're all public schools and we didn't have to fire anybody.

[sandnsea]

28. That's why Denver is a model

for the Obama education strategy. He mentioned it several times while campaigning.

Denver also has a high number of charter schools because Colorado has few charter regulations.

Of course Denver didn't have to fire anybody. Denver VOLUNTARILY CHANGED.

That's the friggin' point. For schools that WILL NOT CHANGE, something drastic may have to happen. A charter is a possibility. For a district that wants to keep their traditional public schools, firing is another option.

But every school WILL be a success. No more excuses.

And as far as I am personally concerned, if teachers and principals and administrators can't get that through their heads, fuck 'em. Get out.

[donco6]

31. Well, no, it's not Denver.

It's Adams County District 1, also known as Mapleton. Denver is it's own city, county and school district. We get confused with them all the time, much to our chagrin. It's hard to live in that shadow.

I've worked here for 15 years. We embarked on our reform about 6 years ago. We closed ALL of our schools and reopened them as individual models. Teachers were able to choice in to most schools, though some had to interview (Montessori, IB and MESA, because the new models demanded so much training and certification). Any child may choose any model in the district, and we'll transport if they're more than 1 mile away.

NONE of our reformed schools are charters. We do have two now, but we just added them this year.

We did not have reform forced upon us by some outside agency that doesn't know anything about our community. My point is that it can be done, and it can be done from the inside. Other districts are up against a lot of other things. But firing everyone is just not the sign of good leadership.

[sandnsea]

34. Oooh, you closed them and reopened them

Which is one of the options in RTTT.

Denver did the same, and implemented some charters, and even a Montessori.

http://www.dpsk12.org/district_reform/

This IS exactly what Obama and Duncan's plan is.

There are some schools that close, and hire all new teachers when they reopen. Others keep half their teachers and hire another half new. Presumably because the teachers don't like the change the school is implementing, like maybe they don't believe in Montessori for instance.

The lies about the education plan are as bad as the lies about the health care bill.

It's stunningly dishonest. No wonder Democrats have such a hard time making any progress. Everybody is still more interested in protecting their sliver of the pie than getting anything done.

[Hannah Bell]

64. uh, no, it's not. they closed & reconfigured their schools according to their own ideas,

not according to the four narrow, stupid, worthless models mandated by this administration:

close & send students to other schools
charterize
fire all staff, hire back no more than 50%
fire principal & institute "pay for performance" & new teacher eval process

[donco6]

32. dupe

[Dinger]

44. So you Say "fuck the teachers"?

Back at ya sandsea, back at ya.

[mzteris]

50. and wouldn't it be WONDERFUL

if other public school boards followed your example?!?!?!!

But if they don't - or won't - then . . . what? Are the kids just SOL or can other measures be taken?

[Fire1]

39. That's because the VALUE of education among the poor has

diminished. No, it's not all the parents (but a very large percentage), it's also the administrators and in many cases, superintendents. School Boards AND some poor performing teachers play some part, as well.

[sandnsea]

40. The VALUE of educating the poor has diminished

Just look at all the threads, from teachers, who say college isn't necessary. Why would a poor kid put any effort in learning if they're just going to end up at McDonalds? Do you think their parents don't know their kids are going to be ignored and allowed to drop out so that the school's average SAT and ACT scores are better?

The teachers aren't the cause of all of it. That's why RTTT, specifically, includes plans that replace principals. Charters replace everything, including administration. Charters and school reformations address every single thing teachers complain about, but frankly, teachers are so concerned about their contract that they can't see the changes they've been wanting happening right before their eyes.

Behavior problems? Charters can expel students more quickly. Curriculum adjustments? Charters don't have the administrative hoops to jump through. Too many useless continuing ed requirements? Some charters don't have that. It goes on and on. They are exactly what teachers have been wanting for years.

Now there's an opportunity for schools to implement those plans in public schools, and teachers won't do it.

Why? All I can figure is that the excuses will be gone and they'll have to produce or admit they're lousy teachers.

[Fire1]

41. As a teacher who has taught in an urban community their entire

career, I take severe umbrage at your accusation. I think I can speak for the vast majority of educators when I say that students have been first and foremost our top priority.

When you refer to teachers "saying college isn't necessary," I didn't read the threads but I'm almost certain you and others typically took that out of context and/or their statements were totally misconstrued. Furthermore, don't get me started on what "the parents don't know." That's a thread by itself.

Ironically, you talk about kids being ignored and allowed to drop out to save SAT and ACT scores ( which btw, reflects more on the students for college entrance than AYP of the schools) and in all likelihood these are the same students who are behavior problems
that charter schools can expel.

All charters don't implement change for the better. It depends on the "investors" behind it.

[sandnsea]

42. The students are gone, just like you want

Whether expelled or allowed to drop out.

So why oppose the system that doesn't give the school bad drop-out ratings?

And why not focus on the schools, charter or otherwise, that do implement change for the better - if students really are your top priority?

How do kids that fail in your urban school, suddenly end up in college through another school?

And why are the people who are asking these questions the bad guys??

If the students really are the top priority and all.

[Fire1]

77. Who says the charter system doesn't or won't give bad

drop out rates?? Who says charters are "better" and suddenly kids go to college? The track record of charters to date is questionable, at best. I don't consider people who are asking these questions to be bad guys. Just uninformed.

[immoderate]

47. All of the students -- except the third that dropped out.

We'll still need public schools as a place for the charters to dump their failures, so they won't count.

--imm

[mzteris]

78. 1/3 that dropped out??? WTF

That class started with 150. Of those 43 that left only 10 were expelled or dropped out. The rest moved and/or transferred to another school.

[immoderate]

85. Did they have to fill those vacancies?

A public school has to accept all students.

--imm

[mzteris]

87. all that apply.

I don't know what their policy is on higher grade admission. Some schools have a "you must be entry year" requirement (yes, traditional, too.)

[Hannah Bell]

62. funny how that glowing article never mentioned that last year, only 15% of those same students

met state proficiency requirements.

gee, i guess they brought them all up to grade level between 2009 & 2010. so that they all could magically get into university.

[wcast]

73. Did you read the thread? This is in response to post #9

Kudos to the students of Urban Prep. But notice the word "Prep" in the name. These students had to apply to go to this school. Therefore, they are more motivated to do well. They had to agree to an extra hour of school per day, to take double English class. It took many of them an hour or more to get home, which they used public transportation. Again, kudos!!! However, the class started with 150 students, and ended with 107. That's a 29% drop-out rate. And why can't we do this to the regular, high poverty schools that serve their neighborhoods instead of having to create a prep school students have to cross multiple neighborhoods to get to?

As several in this thread have noted, you don't have this problem in wealthy suburban schools. And much of it has to do with disparity of funding. You also have the fact that NCLB is rigged against the schools and the teachers. It assumes everyone has the same ability level, and everyone is going to college.

Twenty percent of jobs in the US require a 4-year or more college degree. This has been true for at least 10 years or more. Sixty percent require some college or training. You can be an LPN in a year, electric line-man in two, etc. But we act as if every student was going to Harvard, or had the ability to go. Everyone seems to have forgotten about the Bell curve.

We had a training yesterday, and had as a presenter an individual from PDE. I teach in PA. We discussed the new PVAAS and EMetrics systems. While these systems are valuable, all data is still derived from a once a year, high stakes test. During his presentation he said, Something needs to change, or in a few years, all schools will be labeled as failing. And that's true!! ( He also said he grew up in Chicago and said he had little confidence in Arne Duncan changing thing for the better) By 2014 100% of all students are supposed to score proficient. Remember the Bell curve?! Of course, every state gets to choose what it means to be proficient.

There are many reason why poor, urban schools fail. But the current trend of blaming the teachers is misguided and wrong. It started under Ronald Reagan, and continues to this day. It is so ingrained in our society that many, even some her on DU, fall into this train of thought. It proves the point that Republicans use every day. Say it long enough and it becomes true, no matter what the facts state!!

[mzteris]

79. only 10 were dropped/expelled.

The other 33 moved and or transferred to other schools.

Read the new blueprint. 2014 is going away. There are a lot of other good changes re testing and support and funding and training:

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/blueprint/blueprint.pdf


Good stuff! :thumbsup:

[tonysam]

11. The only way "performance" will improve in low-income schools

is to fire the KIDS and replace THEM. Schools have ultimately no control over outside forces or even over kids' desire to learn.

[Catshrink]

15. Or fire the parents

New Rule: Let's Not Fire the Teachers When Students Don't Learn -- Let's Fire the Parents by Bill Maher

snip:

Yes, America has found its new boogeyman to blame for our crumbling educational system. It's just too easy to blame the teachers, what with their cushy teachers' lounges, their fat-cat salaries, and their absolute authority in deciding who gets a hall pass. We all remember high school - canning the entire faculty is a nationwide revenge fantasy. Take that, Mrs. Crabtree! And guess what? We're chewing gum and no, we didn't bring enough for everybody.

But isn't it convenient that once again it turns out that the problem isn't us, and the fix is something that doesn't require us to change our behavior or spend any money. It's so simple: Fire the bad teachers, hire good ones from some undisclosed location, and hey, while we're at it let's cut taxes more. It's the kind of comprehensive educational solution that could only come from a completely ignorant people.

Firing all the teachers may feel good - we're Americans, kicking people when they're down is what we do - but it's not really their fault. Now, undeniably, there are some bad teachers out there. They don't know the material, they don't make things interesting, they have sex with the same kid every day instead of spreading the love around... But every school has crappy teachers. Yale has crappy teachers - they must, they gave us George Bush.

According to all the studies, it doesn't matter what teachers do. Although everyone appreciates foreplay. What matters is what parents do. The number one predictor of a child's academic success is parental involvement. It doesn't even matter if your kid goes to private or public school. So save the twenty grand a year and treat yourself to a nice vacation away from the little bastards.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/new-rule-dont-fire-the-te_b_497554.html

[etherealtruth]

18. Wow .... just wow

Perhaps a novel approach would be to seek ways to meet the VERY challenging needs these children have .... most of these children do NOT have the supports other children have. They often have parents with lower levels of education, parents that may work multiple jobs or long hours at extremely low paying jobs, they may have parents that have substance abuse problems .... As a society we need to rise to the challenge and devise ways to reach these kids ... the though of continuing to write them off is disgusting.

[Catshrink]

20. You do know tonysam was joking, right?

:shrug:

[etherealtruth]

22. I guess not :-)

[mzteris]

51. no. no she wasn't.

She says things like this all the time.

[JCMach1]

61. Or politicians for that matter...

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

10. What an insulting post to those of us here who are teachers.

[etherealtruth]

14. I don't think "all the teachers on DU " are evidence of the problem

There are a few out spoken (over-spoken) members that believe they are serving their cause well by denying that there are ANY problems with teachers or public education ... ever. My fervent hope is that in their professional lives they are more reflective and introspective and have the desire to continually improve themselves and their profession. Something we all (hopefully) aspire to!

[donco6]

16. Sure, there are bad apples out there.

But as many here have said, it's bad administrators who allow these teachers to remain because they won't follow the level 1,2,3 evals that it takes to get rid of them. It's hard to do, for sure, but not impossible. And if the process is followed objectively, it should be fair. We developed it with the union, after all.

But this wholesale slash and burn strategy is utterly preposterous.

[etherealtruth]

21. I agree

That's why I responded to the post (that has since been deleted). I was shocked that "they" would refer to "the teachers on DU" with such a blanket statement ... I've witnessed a couple of folk that the deleted statement held true for .... but a "couple" isn't close to being representative of the whole.

[mzteris]

54. "couple" indicates two

Few - three to four;
Several - four or more
A lot - 10-ish or more (depending on the "thing")

(as was taught to me by my 8th grade English teacher).

Point being, I'd say it's more than a "couple". . .

[etherealtruth]

69. Two are highlighted in my mind (= a couple) ;-)

Sadly, they do a great disservice to the teaching profession and public education with their posts. I have found that most of those that identify themselves as teachers are bright and thoughtful and capable of identifying both the good and shortcomings in their profession (and public education). Most offer reasonable suggestions or offer comments related to their frustrations (making valid points). They rightfully, defend their profession, as a whole , and they have the wisdom to understand that perfection has not been achieved.

After years on DU without considering using the ignore function (for fear of missing important information, intelligent argument and well thought out perspective) I have decided to ignore two .... as it became apparent that I would miss nothing of value.

[Catshrink]

17. None of us deny there are problems in education

We object to the wholesale firing and blaming all teachers for the problems in education. The problems seem in many areas are symptoms of a wider societal problem. Schools are like emergency rooms where people show up when they are seriously ill because they can't afford preventive medicine. Kids show up at school hungry, tired, from unstable homes and somehow, unlike the expectations placed on an ER doc treating someone with previously undiagnosed Stage 4 cancer, we're supposed to fix it. The doc says, "I'm sorry, it's too late." Obama/Duncan say, "Sorry teacher, it's your fault so find another job."

Your suggestion that we aren't reflective in our teaching is damn insulting and, unfortunately, what I am beginning to expect from the many uninformed armchair teachers here on DU.

[etherealtruth]

19. Did you read the post I responded to?

Did you read what I wrote?

I think not.

[Catshrink]

23. I read and responded to what you wrote.

[etherealtruth]

25. I think the deleted post was necessary to understand my response

"My fervent hope is that in their professional lives they are more reflective and introspective and have the desire to continually improve themselves and their profession." In the context of my response, this statement referred to the criticism levied at "all the teachers on DU" (which I believe is patently untrue) .... my statement refers to the few posters for which the deleted post had some validity.

[Catshrink]

26. And I missed that.

Sorry if my reponse to your post missed the context.

[sandnsea]

27. And that is just not true

The kid is not showing up with undiagnosed Stage 4 cancer. He's showing up with a hang nail and dirty hands. Neglect and incompetence is allowing that to develop into infections that require amputation. It wouldn't be acceptable at any hospital and it's not acceptable in our schools.

I find it hysterical that all I said was that there isn't even a policy to object to because the overhaul of NCLB was just announced THIS MORNING.

And then because I point out the animosity of all the DU teachers IN THE EDUCATION FORUM, a post gets deleted.

Incredible.

[mzteris]

52. you can say that again!

:thumbsup:

[Bluebear]

86. All these "teachers" here all of a sudden!

[Starry Messenger]

13. Not just no, but hell no

It's not even an Education policy, it is a corporate raider policy.

[Fire1]

35. +1000000 n/t

[maryf]

37. +1,000,000,000,000

military industrial raiders too...

[readmoreoften]

29. Not just no. HELL NO.

Only a Democrat could put the last nail in the coffin of public education.

[ibegurpard]

30. Charter schools

just another example of duping the public into supporting a public risk/private profit model for public institutions...with no accountability to the public.
I just find it incredible that support for this kind of shit is coming from the Democratic Party.

[Fire1]

36. Unbelievable. n/t

[Telly Savalas]

43. The charter school my kid attends is sponsored by a state university.

Where's the fucking profit?

[The Midway Rebel]

45. Are your kids going to attend that state university for free?

Plus, that charter school is likely a cheap place to farm out student teachers for the jobs that don't exist. Suckers.

[mzteris]

56. your point?

Maybe they will - there are scholarships. And even if not "your state school" is cheaper than going off to another state or to a private college.

wtf does that have to do with charter public schools? You make it sound like a BAD thing. . .


"cheap pace to farm out student teachers" - ha. good one. Student teachers in every classroom would be great for the STUDENT, the students in the room, and the teacher, and for the FUTURE students of that "student teacher".

[The Midway Rebel]

59. Sure, as long as you realize that people who teach teachers have MA's

An MA plus a student teacher in every class room is going to cost some cash. Maybe you can get Men's Warehouse to foot the bill for that too.

[mzteris]

60. hey - I think that's a good thing!

Don't you?

I've always said that - especially with the size of the classrooms these days. AND every "new teacher" has to be a TA for at least two years before they get their own room. . . and are still mentored for another 2 or 3.

But if the university is putting the kid in there for credit, do they still get paid? I wasn't under the impression that "student teaching" assignments involved pay. Though maybe things have changed?

[The Midway Rebel]

63. Student teachers do not get paid in my State.

It is free labor for the district and profit for the university (as I mentioned in my point above). Universties have to cut the mentoring teacher a check.

Like I said, great idea. Who should pay for it?

[mzteris]

65. I'm not sure I follow -

you just said they didn't get paid. And why would the Mentor need a check? Hell, she's getting help in the classroom!

[mzteris]

53. not true.

sigh.

I get so tired of the same lies being spouted over and over again. If you people don't like charters, at least get your FACTS straight! jeesh

[Dinger]

46. Hmmm, 82%. This Isn't Going Well For The President Or Duncan (nt)

[LWolf]

67. I don't see 17% of the respondents

to this thread supporting Obama/Duncan, and whoever they are, I sincerely doubt that they are teachers.

The poll is a good idea. :hi:

[ncteechur]

48. Obviously everyone else is to blame...

the administrators because they are management hacks (never mind that most were teachers)

the parents because they are deadbeats (because they hold their good kids at home and only send their bad ones)

the president because he is willing to make hard choices (only because he has said over and over that failing schools and ill-prepared students threaten our economy and national security which is absolutely true)

the school board because they wouldn't pay people a boatload of extra money (to do the job they were already being paid to do)

but there is no way that the teachers are to blame--after all, they are only the folks that are actually paid to teach the kids

That is the argument that most of you seem to be laying down.


Yes, the RI school district fired all the teachers. And it fired all the administrators at the school, too. Were the students in the school being well-served or not? Was the school perpetually failing or not? Is public education an enterprise dedicated to the benefit of children or is it just an enterprise to provide a few jobs to teachers? What is the function of teacher unions? Just to protect inadequate teachers or to strengthen teaching and as a result, make things better for kids.

[Starry Messenger]

58. So you're a Broad graduate, yes?

Those are some powerful spores.

[freddie mertz]

74. Failure to perform is a judgment we can all exercise--against turncoat politicians in November.

Maybe the WH should ponder that notion for a moment or two.

Failing politicians can also be fired.

And should be.

[mzteris]

55. how many of you ACTUALLY READ it

in it's entirety BEFORE you formed an opinion about it.

Or did you just reject it out of hand because it's from Obama and Duncan? I think the latter is true in most cases.

I would really like to have a REASONED DISCUSSION/DEBATE about the issues of this - do you think that's remotely possible on here?

[mzteris]

57. a copy of the policy - for the 61 who haven't read it yet.

(haha. okay I made my little joke, but seriously - how many of you have actually READ IT? and WITH and OPEN MIND?!? Seriously. For reals. . . . ah well...

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/blueprint/blueprint.pdf

[Hannah Bell]

66. it is to laugh to hear you talk about "open mind".

& that report is a bundle of PR-speak.

example: "Maintaining and strengthening formula grant programs for Native American
students, homeless students, migrant students, and neglected or delinquent students;
as well as for districts that are in rural areas or that are affected by federal
property and activities."


show me the numbers, the formulas, & the grant requirements.

oh, wait, wading through all that takes work.

better you just spew the PR-speak.

[freddie mertz]

68. I am a teacher, and I vote NO!

From a recent conversation with a colleague:" To say Obama has been a disappointment doesn't begin to cover it..."

Teachers will remember in November, and beyond.

[DailyGrind51]

70. For reasons too numerous to mention, true education reform is not yet possible.

Economic reforms, including a draconian increase in the top marginal tax rate, and a reversal in national priorities must come first.

[freddie mertz]

76. The utter unwillingness to tax capital is our biggest problem right now.

We are becoming a banana republic.

With cheers from the ranks here at DU.

[DailyGrind51]

80. Before families value the importance of their children's education,

they need to have secure jobs with livable wages. Before self-actualization (education) can occur, survival needs must be met. (Herbert Maslow)

[Catshrink]

81. You'd think Obama-Duncan would be smart enough to know that

before the wholesale firing and blaming of teachers in RI.

[Red Knight]

71. Let's switch teachers from nice suburban schools

To inner city schools and see how they make out. Let's see how they do with 40 kids in their classroom where they often have to share books because there are not enough to go around. Let's see how they do with the youth who have no home support and bring their problems to school--kids who don't want to be there and are more interested in disrupting than learning. Let's see how they do in schools where cops have to roam the halls and the teachers are outnumbered.

Sorry.

My daughter goes to just such a public school and the teachers are really up against it. I'm thankful any of them choose to teach there knowing the problems involved. It's just an easy out. The teachers are bad.

I have a lot of respect for someone entering that line of work--especially today knowing what they're up against. It's a bad system and they don't have the luxury to simply teach. They also have to deal with inept school boards and administrators. I don't think the principal is around much at all at her school and he could care less when he is and yet--they won't fire him.

It's BS.

Good luck to you teachers out there.

I wouldn't want your job.

[freddie mertz]

75. + 2000000001. This should be an OP.

[flyarm]

72. the poll is not working and not recording votes. I just tried..vote did not go through. just so you

know..I tried it 4 times.

[yurbud]

82. Read this first hand story of a charter school teacher if you think their policy is smart.

http://counterpunch.com/stein03102010.html

[mzteris]

84. oooo - "A" teacher!! OMG close them. close them ALL!!!

RIGHT F"ING NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :crazy:


One teacher had a bad experience so they must truly all suck.

:eyes:

hoooooooooookay, then.