Kucinich: "I have a responsibility to take a stand here on behalf of those who want a public option"

[kpete]

From Democracy Now (3/11/10)

DENNIS KUCINICH: I mean, I have a responsibility to take a stand here on behalf of those who want a public option. There’s about thirty-four members of the Senate, at least, who have signed on to saying they support a public option. If I were to just concede right now and say, "Well, you know, whatever you want. All this pressure’s building. Just forget about it," actually weakens every last-minute bit of negotiations that would try to improve the bill. So I think that it’s really critical to take this stand, because without it, there’s no real control over premiums. Without it, we have nothing in the bill except the privatization of our healthcare system.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/11/rep_dennis_kucinich_takes_on_democratic

kpete: makes sense to me.
Thanks Dennis

[Jefferson23]

1. K&R for the truth.

[ibegurpard]

2. Good for him.

:thumbsup:

[The Magistrate]

3. Rep. Kucinich Is Talking Nonesense, Ma'am

He has an obligation to stand by the Party, rather than with such reprobates and Stupak and Boehner and Cantor....

[AnOhioan]

12. Sorry, I call BS. Our elected officials are under no requirement..

to toe the party line. Especially when that line involves passing a bad piece of legislation. An elected official's primary responsibility is to serve the needs of his or her constituency. If that means defying the party, so be it.

Far too few people in elected office actually do what they were elected to do. Dennis was not elected to kowtow to the "bought and paid for" wing of the Democratic Party.

[The Magistrate]

15. So You Are Saying, Sir, Rep. Kucinich Was Elected To Vote With The Republicans On Key Legislation?

Because that is what he is doing, and not for the first time.

[AnOhioan]

19. Everything he voted for or against, he did so with....

the interests of his constituents in mind...doing the job he was elected to do.

[The Magistrate]

27. Nonesense, Sir: Each Vote He Cast, and Casts, Alongside The Republicans Served Their Interests

The interests of the most reactionary elements of our political life.

[AnOhioan]

33. Funny thing is, I used to think your posts were very good

Along with several others...but this disaster of a bill has brought the true colors of many. Sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree.

This bill is bad for the citizens of our country and it's passage will ensure the Republican majorities you are concerned about.

[The Magistrate]

36. You May Feel Whatever You Wish, Sir

Failure to pass the bill will do mare than passing it could do.

"What other people think of me is none of my business."

[icee]

302. -1

[Mithreal]

175. +1

[Fading Captain]

68. Stop blustering

Nonsense sir?
We don't all view the world in the dem vs. rep prism. Thankfully.

[The Magistrate]

70. Now There, Captain, Is A Serious And Thoughtful Contribution....

"I left a wife in Tennessee and a baby in Saigon --
I risked my life, but not to hear some country-western song."

[niceypoo]

374. Your whole premise is intellectually dishonest

The republicans want no health care bill. Kucinich wants a stronger health care bill. Kucinich wants the opposite of what the GOP wants, but you already knew this.

[saracat]

20. He was elected to represent the people of his district and those people want a Public Option.

He wasn't elected to vote in lockstep.

[The Magistrate]

32. And Defeating This Bill Will Not Get Them A Public Option, Ma'am

It will leave the entire matter unattended for another decade at best....

A Party which does not vote as a bloc cannot reliably govern in the interests of its constituents; people who glorify 'not voting in lockstep' puzzle me greatly, because what they are saying, really, is, we intend to fail, whenever the chips are down.

[saracat]

37. Perhaps they should vote as a block in support of a Public Option?

Perhaps they should vote as a block in support of legislation that really matters instead of voting as a block to ensure corporate benefits? The cards are on the table in the Senate now. They have the 51 votes.Lets see what happens as the WH doesn't support the PO.Bernie Sanders hopefully will call them out.lets see what this Democratic Prty is really nade of.This bill is an atrocity without the PO. With it, it could be worked with.

[The Magistrate]

42. Absolutely They Should Have Done That, Ma'am

Poor leadership, and venality and duplicity on the part of many of our Senators, has brought us to this pitch. But here we are, and what must be done must be done. The damage will be much worse if the bill is not passed.

[saracat]

46. Not for me it won't .And if the elected officials can vote for their butts, I can at least support

my own.

[Marr]

74. The damage to what?

To the party that's foisting a corporate hand-out on us in lieu of healthcare? I don't see the point in defending politicians from the consequences of their own duplicitous actions.

[The Magistrate]

76. It Is The Country, Sir, Not Politicians, That Needs Protecting From Republican Majorities

[Marr]

85. At what point does that argument cease making sense for you?

Do you keep defending them until they adopt an elephant as their mascot? They're drifting that direction, and have been for a very long time. The old, "the other party will destroy us all" line is a large part of what makes that drift possible.

[The Magistrate]

90. If You do Not think Republicans Do More Harm, Sir, Hei Yourself To A Tea Party

And have done with it.

[Marr]

94. If you think "We Do Less Harm" is an acceptable political pitch,

I think you're going to be disappointed.

[The Magistrate]

96. It Remains A Fact, Sir, And Less Harm Is To Be Prefered Over Greater Harm

Obviously, the slogan would be a good deal more emphatic, and emphasize that angels align with our banners, while dark demons hover over and slither among the enemy....

[saracat]

100. Gee kinda like saving the baby over the mother if there has to be a choice.

It kinda depends what the individual definition of greater harm is.And at this point the enemy is hard to determine. It may be a case of "we have met the enenmy and he is us".It would seem there is little left to support on either side of the aisle concerning this issue, should we not fix this bill.

[The Magistrate]

106. Or Saving The Mother Over The Baby, Ma'am

Choices like that not infrequently have to be made in crisis situations.

Passing this bill is a better course than not passing it. People who vote against it align with the worst elements of reaction in our polity. Leftists and progressives do not do that.

[saracat]

113. Again, depends on who you consider the "mother" in this case.

[Mithreal]

185. Unattended for another decade? Did you use tea leaves or tarot cards?

I don't expect a response but that's just nonsense and much of the rest too.

[juajen]

280. I don't agree that this is nonsense.

I am forced to agree with The Magistrate. If we don't get a foot in the door, we will be booted and it could be longer than a decade before this is brought up again. I want a way to hold their feet to the fire after this is passed. Has this been discussed and I missed it? It should be shouted to the rooftops that this country is being betrayed by this bill not having a PO. It can only help for the opposition to see how serious this country is about the dire straits we are all in because of inadequate or no health coverage. We knew this would be a hard row to hoe. We have to keep on digging.

[Hansel]

307. +1 nt

[Mithreal]

331. Miscalculated. Much may not kick in until Regressives are back in

You know, a lot of the life saving parts.

Our health care costs are unsustainable. This foot in the door is as much the feet of the Insurance Industrial Complex in our government budgets.

Obama kept SP and PO out. The folks telling us that it'll be all better after this is passed, probably also think Obama will be in there for what, almost 7 more years to give in more to the ones with the deep pockets and protect conservadems and ensure more of them are elected. Wait and see, Obama is putting a stake in Progressives.

No final bill yet. My congressman says he likes to work behind the scenes, I say keep pushing and if Obama and his supporters at all costs base want to pin this on Kucinich, know they are bankrupt, weak and pathetic shills for the health care industry and lobbies. If they can paint a vote as for or against us, I can certainly paint their bailouts as subsidizing the fabulously wealthy and any of the middlemen advocates shills.

You were never gonna get your cookie with Obama. The industry just offered crumbs, but Obama negotiated for nibbling around the edges. Now be a good Dem and give Republicans your lunch money. Not directed at you. Wait and see how it plays. We warned all you knuckleheads out there, again not directed at you. The Magistrate did not persuade me this time.

[obxhead]

348. This foot in the door will benefit the insurance companies far

more than it will ever benefit the people. It will guarantee their profit and requirement in any future health care talks, while at the same time eliminate any future possibility of single payer.

[humbled_opinion]

359. Ok to your point I say

if you are going to get booted then get booted for doing something that will really fix the problem not giving control away to a government that is soon to be run by your political polar opposites.

I say imagine this current legislation enacted by we have Sarah Palin as President now and she has decided to use the new Power of control of your Health Insurance to ensure that she cures all social ills as the bible has instructed her to do?

Imagine when she denies the care to those that do not take adequate state sponsored protection measures during sex. Imagine when she denies a women the right to choice because she says that the government provided you with adequated birth control methods aforehand and will not now pay for your mistakes.

This isssue is about giving the govt control and leaving the people no way out.

[Crunchy Frog]

301. Those people are likely to end up getting nothing at all

other than an emboldened insurance industry that will screw them ten times worse than they're already getting screwed.

I met a woman the other day who is older, but not Medicare age, works her ass off, but is self employed (not employable by agencies due to back problems). She has no insurance at all and has diabetes and hypertension and a bad back. She does not even have equipment for monitoring her blood sugar, or medication. I don't see how she is going to be helped by getting no reform whatsoever because the package wasn't perfect enough for the likes of Kucinich.

Politics is sometimes the art of the possible rather than the attainment of the perfect.

[sabrina 1]

121. No Democrat should allow their votes to be influenced

what Republicans do or do not do. Everyone knows that Republicans are loyal only to their party. They DO support much of what is in this bill, btw, as much of it, as Pelosi and Obama have said, came from their ideas. Bad ideas, like mandates and punishment for those who cannot afford premiums, a travesty Obama addressed eloquently himself in a debate with Hillary Clinton when he stated how wrong it would be to use enforcement mechanisms to punish people who cannot afford to buy insurance. He has since changed his mind, Kucinich who agreed with him then, has not.

Rep. Kucinich's only obligation is to the people who elected him, NOT to the party.

When Bush was president, we slammed Republicans who voted THEIR party line over the best interests of the people.

Kucinich has the support of the American people on this issue and it is his job to try to push his party in the right direction. As for Republicans, the people kicked them out. Mandates with no PO was THEIR idea. Those ideas were rejected by the American people.

Anyone who cares about the survival of the Democratic Party would be doing what Kucinich is trying to do. Get them in line with what the American people want or they are very likely to be swept from office next Fall.

Party loyalty was something the Founding Fathers feared, and I can see clearly why they felt as they did.

I fully support the stand Kucinich is taking on this. And anyhow, since those who hate him believe he is ineffective, why do they care so much about what he says?

[The Magistrate]

124. His Obligation Now, Ma'am, Is To The Party

He cannot, in this situation 'push' the party in any direction. The time for that is past on this issue. His presently proclaimed course can only assist the prospects of the Republicans in the up-coming elections.

[sabrina 1]

148. I'm sorry we disagree on this issue.

Although I want to say, I am very pleased to see you posting again and hope you are well.

The reason I disagree is that there are signs that the PO is not dead. 51 Senators have now said they will sign a bill that includes a bill with a PO if the House pushes for it.

Otoh, Nancy Pelosi said yesterday that the 'votes are not in the Senate'. Now they are so it's possible she will change her mind. As of today, over 64 members of Congress have signed on to Rep. Grayson's bill which asks for a Medicare buy-in for all.

I believe that now it is the duty of the Speaker to get the votes for a PO and pass it along to the Senate.

President Obama has said that he would veto any bill that does not have some kind of PO.

Kucinich, considering these most recent events, not to mention the support of the American Public for it, is imo, duty bound to keep fighting until there is no hope left at all.

[The Magistrate]

151. Much Appreciated, Ma'am

That figure of fifty-one does not seem solid to me, unfortunately. What we are looking at is what we have....

[sabrina 1]

153. You are welcome ~

Regarding your point, I know it is not solid, but I believe the fact that so many have signed on, even the less enthusiastic of them must have done so knowing it is what the people want. Some good leadership now could solidify their support. That was done many times under the Bush administration. That is what I hope will happen ~

[coti]

275. He has numerous more obligations than to the party- but you're certainly right about that one.

I think his obligations to his constituents, his country more generally and to the Constitution remain, but, yeah- he definitely has an obligation to the Democratic Party...

And when this corporatist bill turns out to be one of the most unpopular things the federal government has ever done- forcing everyone to buy health insurance from private insurers!!!- he'll be able to say, hey, I tried to stop it. I tried to protect our party from that kind of legacy.

[freddie mertz]

296. His first obligation is to THE PARTY?

What, then, is THE PARTY's obligation to us?

When does it become OUR obligation to hold THE PARTY (and our elected representatives) accountable?

I suggest that os our obligation, our DUTY, every day.

If they put profits above the public interest, then neither we, nor Dennis, for that matter, owe them anything/

Sorry but you are sounding a bit 1984-ish here.

[alarimer]

325. No it isn't.

His only obligation is to the people who elected him, his district. The party can go to hell, as far as I am concerned. I wish I could vote for him. Instead I vote third party or abstain because I refuse to vote for that piece of shit DemocRAT Solomon Ortiz.

[pundaint]

329. Your evaluation of the political effect of passing a bill which many consider bad, may differ, but

I believe the Democrats will lose no votes from their supporters if they first give a public option an up or down vote. That would assume that the Democrats are exercising the power the People lent them as the People desire. If, however, they just cover up for the bought-and-paid-for contingent by letting them hide in the shadows, and don't get the Republicans on record, Democrats will be looking like the corporate tools they would be.

[inna]

363. What ridiculous and offensive nonsense.

His obligation is to his constituents, not "to The Party". That just reeks of Stalinism. :puke:

[suzie]

168. Kucinich and his supporters only care about the Democratic Party when they

are collectively whining that the Party hasn't treated Kucinich with the attention owed to someone who votes with Republicans.

[Mithreal]

179. Yes, I am sure that is it. Whiners. :yawn:

[Enthusiast]

287. The only one whining

is you.

[Hansel]

304. That's about the way I see it too.

If Kucinich was really serving the interests of his constituents he would vote for this bill as a way to move down the path of complete health care reform in the future. The opportunity to include a public option this time is lost. It's simply too late. But it is something that can be reintroduced in the future in a more favorable political climate.

Passing this bill overcomes the hurdle of fear that the people have about change. When this change is made and the world hasn't come to an end and the people realized they were seriously lied to by the Republicans, and unfortunately some on the left, about this being a government take over then it will be easier to move to the next step of getting a public option because the people will have more trust in the Democrats. The conservadems will have more pressure to pass something more decent. Especially if they get challenged by real Democrats in primaries.

The Republicans have done a bang up job of making people believe this is a government take over of health care and something to fear. The only way to stop that misconception is pass to the bill. If they don't, the people will believe that the Republicans, and Kucinich, helped the country to dodge that bullet. He will serve the Republican agenda well and insure another surge of Republican control.

Kucinich apparently thinks that defeating this bill will somehow make it easier to pass the public option. That somehow this country is suddenly going to see the light and walla! His stand on this is illogical and the primary purpose it serves is to glorify himself in the eyes of his supporters as being a champion of their cause. Unfortunately, it does nothing to move toward what his supporters want and, in fact, is far more likely to stymie their cause.

Edit for spelling

[Mithreal]

332. The country already sees the light and wants a comprehensive PO available to everyone.

Lol, some truth with a little nonsense "magic."

[obxhead]

353. This bill is not a path to complete health care reform

it is a path to guarantee that the for profit insurance industry will ALWAYS be a part of our healthcare system though. A mandated part at that.

[Hansel]

365. Dichotomous thinking belongs to the right.

It's not either or. There will likely be a combination of the two.

It's a guarantee that there will ONLY be private insurance for a very long time though, if DK and the blue dogs screw this up--that is for anyone who doesn't received Medicare or Medicaid. So already you're wrong.

[bvar22]

138. Obama himself voted WITH The Republicans...

on Immunity for Telecoms, FISA.

And the Great Wall Street Bailout Scam.

So, whats your point?

[The Magistrate]

140. What Is Your Point, Sir?

The first two were bad votes, the last was an unfortunate necessity, against which a great many Republicans cast irresponsible grand-stander's votes.

[bvar22]

143. I asked you first,

but it DOES appear you are back-crawling somewhat on your demands for Party Discipline.

Willing to graciously forgive Obama, but demanding crucifixion for Kucinich.
Obama's transgressions were MUCH worse...He was actually voting WITH and AGREEING with the Republicans.
Kucinich is merely taking a STAND against a BAD bill.

[The Magistrate]

144. But Which Of Us Is Rubber, Sir, And Which Glue?

"Enquiring minds want to know!"

[bvar22]

145. I WILL take that as a concession.

...but a somewhat less than honorable one.

[The Magistrate]

146. You May Take Whatever You Like, Sir, And Can Bear On Your Shoulders

"We are indifferent to this Indian, and to all his affairs."

[girl gone mad]

202. TARP was not necessary.

History has proven that beyond all reasonable doubt.

There were many far more palatable options at our disposal, but as the numerous books written on the topic over the last two years have elucidated, Paulson and Bernanke intentionally distorted facts and mislead congress on the extent of the crisis and the remedies available. Supporting the commercial paper market and eliminating mark to market rules would have completely eliminated the need for the 700 Billion few strings attached bill. I can recommend a dozen or so very strong pieces of financial journalism that expound on the topic and I don't believe you could put them down still believing a 'yea' vote on TARP was a necessity.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

192. Sorry, but we don't have a parliamentary system

Pols are under no obligation to vote the party line.

If you want to take off after someone who almost always votes with the Republicans, try bashing Colin Peterson (MN-7), who claims to be a Democrat but rarely votes with the D's. I wonder some times why he doesn't just 'fess up and move over to where he belongs.

Frankly, I'd vote with the Republicans on this one, but not for the same reasons. I think that once all the implications of this bill become clear, it's going to bite the Democrats in the butt.

The Republicans don't have to vote for it. It contains so much that's right in line with their preferences, particularly the guaranteed profits for the insurance companies, complete with corporate welfare if the consumer well runs dry. Most likely there won't even be a public option, so when people find out that they'll be required to buy expensive insurance policies from privately-owned companies, they'll be angry, and the Republicans will tell them, "That's what happens when the 'far left' (as if!) gets in power. Vote for us."

By objecting to the bill, the Republicans are saying, "Oh please throw us into that briar patch!"

(By the way, I've run into all kinds of Democratic-leaning people who are cheering for passage of this bill because they THINK that it is going to give them Canadian-style health care. I'd hate to be a Democratic politician when they find out the truth.)

Above all, we need to remember that deciding the future of the nation is not a team sport. We do not have to and should not support legislation that we see as having more disadvantages than advantages.

[The Magistrate]

211. Find Me Threads Started, Ma'am, In Defense of Mr. Peterson

And you see me direct appropriate vitriol towards the fellow. But you will not see such threads started, because we are pretty much agreed Democrats who vote with the Republicans are wrong to do so. There are people, however, who will defend Rep. Kucinich at length for the same behavior you denounce in Mr. Peterson. Why they are surprised, or unhappy, to see the denunciations that follow quite excapes me. To my mind, you cannot criticize Mr. Peterson for voting with the Republicans and not criticize Rep. Kucinich for doing the same thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

242. Sir, today this site is crawling with people who have started posts

expressly to bash Kucinich. If you compare the number of negative OPs started today with the number of positive OPs started today, you'll see which number is larger.

There's even a Kucinich-bashing column by Michael Tomasky in The Guardian.

Methinks some factions are getting carried away.

On edit: I just counted, and there were EIGHT anti-Kucinich threads on the front page of GDP.

[The Magistrate]

251. No More, Ma'am, Than It Crawls With Posts Intended To Praise Him

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

252. I just counted: EIGHT bashing threads, two defending threads

This is getting silly, so much so that people are mocking the ones who start new bashing threads.

[The Magistrate]

257. Go Back Further, Ma'am

This has been going on for some time.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

271. Oh yes, about once a week

:-)

[girl gone mad]

195. That's a false dichotomy.

Kucinich is very definitely not "voting with the Republicans"!

[The Magistrate]

214. Of Course He Is, Ma'am: He Is Casting A 'No' Vote, Or Says He Will Do So, Anyway

It will be tallied into the same total as the no votes cast by all Republicans in the House. That is 'voting with the Republicans'....

[Mithreal]

238. Pretty frame you have there, leaves nothing to the imagination.

The American people aren't ready for nuance, feed us oversimplifications.

[The Magistrate]

241. A 'Nay' Is A 'Nay' Is A 'Nay', Sir

When they are tallied, and compared to the total of 'ayes', it does not matter a tinker's damn why they were cast. There is no nuance here, there is only the total.

[Mithreal]

245. The bill will pass and we both believe it, if I had to guess.

I have responded to you on ayes vs nayes on another thread. And to you a tinkers damn they won't.

[Myrina]

303. If you recall Sir, President Obama himself said that this bill ...

... is made up of many of the things that REPUBLICANS have wanted & proposed since 1993.
It is a Republican piece of work being foisted on the country by the Democratic President.
And I have no idea why he sees the need to do that, other than to continually capitulate to the big-moneyed interests and some warped attempt at "bipartisanship" (which I personally think is a "why won't my daddy love me?" issue trying to be resolved subconsciously).

The GOP is only against it because Obama's name is anywhere near it. Dog n' Pony show, Sir.
Privately, I am sure they and their donors are licking their chops at the thought of 30 million + new, forced customers.


Kill.The.Bill.

[Mithreal]

333. That's because New Dem is really Old Republican.

[Change Happens]

313. +1, thank you!

[Mithreal]

334. Sometimes dogs like their whistles.

[humbled_opinion]

358. Your assertion is Foolish

This legislation has very little progressive ideas in it and is filled with Insurance industry give aways and mandates people to purchase... What a travesty... Imagine for a moment that this is the legislation that Bush was pushing thru his rubber stamp congress in 2002... are you telling me that you would support it?

Stand by your principles stop using this party line crap it only leads to defeat.

Next thing you know you will be trying to sell people on the virtues of expanding our war on the Muslims by surging more troops for the grinders of the Middle East.

Give me a break.

[madinmaryland]

372. Are you implying, sir, that since Rep. Kucinich is not voting with the Democrats he is a

Republican? If so, that is the oddest set of logic I have ever seen?

[DJ13]

13. The party isnt always in the right

Dont you wish some Republicans had enough balls to take on Bush over his 8 years?

[The Magistrate]

18. Perhaps Not, Sir, But In This Matter, All Democrats Must Stand Together

To look ineffectual is far more damaging than to do something wrong, when it comes to contesting elections, and if this bill does not pass, Democrats will be taken as incapable of governing, and you will see Republican majorities.

[DJ13]

21. Winning isnt everything

Havent we learned that by now?

[The Magistrate]

26. No, Sir, It Is The Only Thing

If you feel success in political life can be achieved by being voted out of majorities in government, you might wish to examine other fields for the focus of your interest, as this one may not really suit you....

[saracat]

48. Actually, it is what we win that counts. If we have a majority and they insist on setting a

pro-GOP agaenda we haven't really "WON" anything. Half of these sellout even supported the folks on SCOTUS who just supported the elevation of corporations to the deciders of elections! Obama himself decalred Roberts to be a "good guy".

[The Magistrate]

58. Welcome, Ma'am, To The Wonderful World Of Not Being In Lockstep....

[saracat]

61. I have never been in lockstep. I am not a Republican.

[The Magistrate]

64. Our Senatorial Contingent Is Not in Lockstep Either, Ma'am: See Where It Gets Us?

[Mithreal]

200. Public option lockstep? 51 in the Senate. Link to the list.

www.whipcongress.com

[The Magistrate]

217. Those People, Sir, Are Very Optimistic

Anything which contains statements like this "19 have given statements to us, reporters, or their constituents. 4 more have made statements on video. And 4 are extremely likely based on their previous support for the public option and Senate leadership, even though they haven't made an official statement yet." cannot be considered a reliable whip count.

[Mithreal]

221. Since we had 59 for medicare buy-in I disagree completely

I do agree that statements or other are weaker than actually signing on to the letter. I am from WA state and hounded my Senator's offices. I also talked with Patty Murray's chief of staff. She is on Senate leadership. They are frustrated with the President and the process. Don't sell them short. We haven't given up, why have you? And why have you fallen on the side of pessimists?

[saracat]

25. So we are supposed to subject ourselves to being worse off than before with health insurance

mandates and no public option and well as support of anti choice verbiage because we "owe" that to the Democratic party? I owe them nothing.They "owe" me decent representation.And both parties have proved themselves incapable of governing at this point.

[The Magistrate]

35. As A Variety Of People Have Pointed Out, Ma'am

There are many whose situation will be improved by this bill. Further, passing it breaks a log-jam and allows real possibility of further legislation bringing improvement, as was the case with Social Security and Medicare.

[saracat]

39. And as many have pointed out , that isn't really the case.

and considering the actions taken of late, there is absolutely no reason to "trust" anyone to fix this bill if passed. This isn't the party of FDR anymore.

[The Magistrate]

47. If This Bill Passes, Ma'am

One of the first things that will happen is that the hysterical attacks of the enemy will lose their force. People will see that the sky does not fall, the earthy does not open and swallow them down to hell. The air will be cleared. People will begin to focus both on what benefits this brings, and on the holes in it. It will be possible to rally considerable support for throwing a better net over the insurance companies.

[saracat]

50. Baloney. There is absolutely NO reason to believe that.

[bvar22]

141. One of the first things that happens if this bill passes..

..is that the legions of Health Insurance Industry Lobbyists and Lawyers, energized by their success at co-opting the Democratic Party Leadership, will immediately begin attacking the already toothless "regulations" that have been inserted into this horrible bill to make it seem more palatable.
They won't even take a day off.
.
.
.
It is WHAT they do.
There will be NO "Fixing it Later."
We WILL be stuck with Mandated Profits for the Health Insurance Industry and NO chance for a Medicare Expansion or a decent Public Option.
"A Uniquely American Solution"...Indeed.

[Mithreal]

188. +1

[ibegurpard]

41. The pass-it and fix it later argument doesn't wash

when you are building on a base DESIGNED to prevent single-payer.
This is cementing for-profit private insurance into the healthcare equation.
There are MANY examples of hybrid systems they could have looked to if they didn't want to do universal single payer.

[The Magistrate]

49. In This Bill,Sir, Are Seeds For Converting The Industry Into A Regulated Public Utility

Not my preferred solution, but one that can be made to work.

[saracat]

52. As you would say Sir, nonsense.

[The Magistrate]

55. Not In The Slightest, Ma'am

If payings out, for instance, are regulated to eighty percent, there is nothing to stop the figure from being revised upwards in future, nearer where it ought to be, which is north of ninety-five percent.

The various differentials companies are allowed to charge over age, now set, can be narrowed, and there will be pressure to narrow them.

[saracat]

56. Nothing except they won't do it.

[The Magistrate]

62. There Will Be A Good Deal Of Popular Pressure To Do These Things, Ma'am

And it will be easy to focus and direct. It is much easier when a single villain can be pointed to, and a single step proposed in remedy for the villain's evil.

[saracat]

78. There is popular pressure NOW and they aren't doing it.

[The Magistrate]

88. The Situation Will Be Different, Ma'am

A very large thing, with many facets, is being attempted at present, and it has been attempted before and failed. This is very different from an outcry focused on one specific thing, say, raising the pay-out percentage, in response to some fresh outrage of profiteering that has roused the populace.

[saracat]

104. Yeah.The liklihood that we will not retain a majority is great.Then we can really say we don't have

the votes and be truthful!

[The Magistrate]

108. Failure To Pass This Bill, Ma'am, Will Greatly Increase The Chance We Lose The Majority

[saracat]

110. Failure to pass a Bill containing the PO will do that.I would support the Bill

flawed as it is, and it is really flawed if it had a public option to balance it a tiny bit. But it may not.

[The Magistrate]

112. Failure To Pass A Bill, Ma'am, By Now, Will Do Great Harm

It does not matter if it is good or bad. Too much has been sunk into the thing, and it simply must be carried.

[saracat]

117. I guess it matters to me if it is good or bad and I don't support the Party as an entity over

the concerns of the people.And I always thought that was what we did as Democrats.

[The Magistrate]

122. The Necessity, Ma'am, Is To Deny The Worst Reactionaries Control Of Government

This is the pre-requisite for anything and everything else.

[saracat]

125. Then why did we bend to them? What did it accomplish? We are likely not going to agree on this

Magistrate. I respect your opinion and I do understand what you are saying. In fact, had the application of such logic gone toward a worthy goal, I might agree with you. The Democratic Party has changed to such a point as to be unrecognizable. I cannot support my party right ot wrong. This is no longer the party of FDR and no longer seems to represent its own ideals. I continue to be a Democrat but I now only support individual candidates. I am not really a Kucinich fan, but I see nothing wrong in his stance.Right now I think the only Dem with a spine is Sanders and he isn't a Dem!

[The Magistrate]

131. Very Poor Leadership, Ma'am, And A Mis-Reading Of The Political Situation

President Obama, in my view, made a mistake in calculating that people really wanted an end to fighting in Washington, and would rally to a man who went out of his way to avoid a scrap. It is true people say this sort of thing all the time, but they do not mean it in their hearts. The truth remains closer to Gen. Patton's view that "Americans love to fight. Traditionally, all real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. America loves a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise a coward. Americans play to win." People in political life forget this at their peril.

Regarding Sen. Sanders, Ma'am: we need a lot more Socialists in the Senate, for damn sure!

[saracat]

136. On that we can agree Sir. BTW, I am glad you appear to be feeling better

and are your sprightly self!:pals:

[The Magistrate]

137. Thank You, Ma'am: Always A Pleasure

I am feeling a bit frisky today....

[saracat]

139. Good for you! I wish many more folks were as frisky while also maintaining the civility of

debate!

[sellitman]

162. Of that we can all agree

I've enjoyed both of your points of view as I constantly move between them both inexplicably.

The civility here is refreshing.

[mvd]

147. Hi, Magistrate

Nice to see you again and glad you are feeling well. You know I'm a fan of DK and don't mind his stand, because he still wants real reform. We've always respectfully disagreed on DK. But I'm torn on the bill. We have debated for so long, and if the Repukes get a victory, that will only encourage them more. So I very reluctantly support passage, with progressives keeping up the pressure and telling the President it's our turn now. :hi:

[The Magistrate]

152. That Is Pretty Much My Position, Too, My Friend

This is far from my preferred outcome, but the situation has so deteriorated that this is what has to be done.

[flyarm]

277. what has the "popular pressure" now??????? and we are having horse crap shoved down our throats!

what do you call a 40% tax on people with good policies..and what will that do exactly..well let me tell you what it will do.it will take those good polices away from people..so instead of pulling people up to good polices..it will trend them all down to crappy polices.

This is good????????? I call BS sir!

when you start out and digress....it doesn't get better.

Name anything they have ever taken away from the American people, that ever goes back to what it was origninally..

or that gets worse ( for whatever reason) that ever goes back to better..i can't name one thing!

[misanthrope]

226. It's not a sporting event...

...I'm so sick of supposed political junkies treating governance like it's the Bears vs. the Lions.

[cornermouse]

297. Its not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game.

Ethics in action and as true for adults and life overall as it is for children and their games. This entire thread has been a real eye opener.

[PeaceNikki]

310. But it can be argued that Kucinich is pushing the party MORE to the right.

Interesting comment from Nate Silver's thread today: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/03/stats-say-kucinich-may-be-least.html

Mainer said...
I'd argue that Kucinich pushes the party RIGHT, not left.

The thing is, if Kucinich votes no, then the Democratic leadership has to get the vote elsewhere and the main stash of votes on the bubble are from Blue Dogs. Thus they end up either changing the bill to appeal to them or cutting a deal on another legislative priority (or simply putting in an earmark) to get that other vote.

If Kucinich had voted with the leadership to begin with, that wouldn't be necessary.
March 14, 2010 8:55 AM

[Raineyb]

328. Mr. Silver's argument is asinine.

The party never needs an excuse to move the party to the right and the idea that having someone push them from the left will actually push them in the other direction is stupid.

The party moves to the right because it WANTS to. It doesn't need an excuse but it always needs an excuse to move to the left.

[Mithreal]

335. Yeah, nothing to do with Rahm Emanuel or that other purse string holder Obama

:wtf:

[saracat]

17. He isn't standing with them. he is standing for a Public Option.

And all folks with D's after their names are not correct.There is no reason NOT to have a Public Option. None.

[The Magistrate]

22. He Is Voting With The Republicans, Ma'am: He Stands With Them

That is what you do when you vote the same as someone else does....

[saracat]

30. So ALL Dems who would fight for a Public Option are the same as the Republicans?

Funny, then look at it as bipartisanship something the rest of the Dems including Obama really approve of. We were sold down the river in support of bipartisanship and you worry about Dennis voting with the GOP ?

[The Magistrate]

38. If They Pretend To Do So By Voting With Republicans On This Bill, Ma'am, Yes

You know perfectly well that defeating this bill will not advance the prospect of a 'public option', let alone a single-payer plan, by a fraction of a nanometer.

[saracat]

43. Perhaps it will at least send a message that we don't want to be jerked around anymore.

And that is important to. There is no reason for the lack of a public option. I repeat, no reason.It isn't as though this is a bipartisan bill. It gets no GOP support. What reason is ther for the lack of a Public Option? If we vote in lockstep for anything, I would hope we could do that.

[The Magistrate]

53. No ,Ma'am, It Will Send No Such Message To Align With Republicans And Defeat This Bill

The message that will send is that Republicans are the stronger party, and so are to be aligned with or imitated if success is sought.

[saracat]

54. One thing I would agree with, it does seem they are tone deaf. One would think losing Teddy Kennedy'

seat would mean something.The majority of those polled in Mass said it was because they didn't like the HCR without a PO. So our brilliant leadership took home a reverse lesson.Exactly waht is the reason for not having a PO again?

[The Magistrate]

57. The Turn Out In That Special Election, Ma'am, Was Very Small

It is hardly a window into the national soul on the matter.

[saracat]

59. But they still lost Teddy Kennedy's seat. Says a lot.And no it isn't all about Coakley.

[The Magistrate]

65. But A Lot Of It Was, Ma'am

"When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door."

[ibegurpard]

63. I would argue that turnout was an indicator of the problem

that people like myself are extremely dissillusioned with the current state of the Democratic Party

[The Magistrate]

66. Turn Out Is Always Low In Special Elections, Sir

There was great over-confidence afflicting Massachusetts Democrats going into the contest. Mis-placed confidence was probably the greatest item suppressing turn out for Ms. Coakley.

[saracat]

79. Interesting Apparently you refuse to answer why there isn't a PO?

[The Magistrate]

91. There Are Not Sufficient Votes To Pass It In The Senate, Ma'am

The claim being bruited in some quarters there are fifty one is not a good whip count....

Of course, if the party worked as a bloc, the fact that a majority of Democratic Senators and Representatives do support such a measure would determine caucus policy, which all would then follow, in lockstep, on the floor.

[saracat]

95. Odd. Some of the senators themselves are affirming the 51 votes

But if course the WH does not support it. I wonder why(Actually I don't) But even if that were true, the question still remains, why aren't there enough votes?

[The Magistrate]

97. Because, Ma'am, Of What You Are So Proud Of: We Do Not Act In Lockstep....

We would get a lot more of what we both want if we did.

[saracat]

109. And as I said, if we did march in lockstep wouldn't it be a good thing to do it for something of

value and not just to make political points.I am really tired of this being treated as a game and all about the winning side while we achieve nothing. This bill is nothing but an excuse for the WH to say we "win" and it doesn't matter that we could have just as easily pushed a decent HCR instead of a detrimental one.The WH was too concerned with bipartisanship and the congress with their perception of reelection in order to do the actual work of governing. So like Truman said, when the public has a choice of voting for a Republican and a Republican they generally vote Republican! That is all our butt kissing got us."Winning by capitulation" really isn't a good campaign strategy.

[The Magistrate]

111. Yes, Ma'am, It Would

But you have to be able to act as a bloc in the first place. A party which cannot act as a bloc cannot effectively govern. We have to get over treating disunity and internal fragmentation as things to be proud of. They are crippling lacks.

[saracat]

120. Speaking up against a wrong is always something to be proud of. Neither side in this nation has

proved it can govern at the moment.And if the only time we can vote as a block we do it to pass GOP inspired legislation, we are in sorry shape indeed.

[The Magistrate]

126. That Is Just Pious Noise, Ma'am

This bill is not what the Republicans on their own would have passed. A Republican Health Care Reform would convert Medi-Care to vouchers, push people into 'Health Savings Accounts', and herd the ill permanently into 'high risk pools' that would provide only the most limited and expensive pretense of coverage.

[laughingliberal]

149. With all due respect, though, we have enshrined the Republican's idea

of for profit, 'free market' health care in this bill. I well remember the system we have now is, largely, the result of the Republicans selling the American people on the idea that letting the markets run free would create competition which would increase the quality of care and lower costs. And I well remember the days the for profit hospital corporations began the takeover of the hospital system. We have done virtually nothing in this bill to rein in the astronomical costs involved with hospital care which really is one of the major reasons costs are out of control.

In addition, we have incorporated several Republican ideas into the bill such as letting insurance companies sell across state lines to create the race to the bottom. This, you may recall, was one of the center pieces of the McCain plan. The excise tax on high end plans is not exactly the same as McCain's plan to tax benefits as income but it is a step in that direction. It is also very reminiscent of Bush's 'ownership society' solution which postulated if people were forced to spend more of their own money on their health care needs they would be more judicious in spending the money-in short, it would create incentive to self ration. The excise tax encourages this by making comprehensive policies less likely and incentivizing employers to provide less expensive policies which would, obviously, be less comprehensive.

I'm not sure this is THE bill the Republicans would have written. If fact it is not likely it is. But it does contain enough of the foundational Republican ideals for them to build on should they, at some point, regain power.

[saracat]

156. This is exactly how I see it. Great response!

[Mithreal]

186. +1 Well said.

[freddie mertz]

294. And that is the bottom line for at least some of us, including the very many here at DU...

Who have rec'd this thread and recognize the difference between a principled progressive stand, however politically "inconvenient," and the dishonest, politically-motivated tactics of the Republican bloc.

[Mithreal]

337. +1

[humbled_opinion]

360. Very well stated....n/t

[bvar22]

263. An excellent illustration of Whistling Past the Graveyard!

"The Turn Out In That Special Election, Ma'am, Was Very Small.."

The truth is that The Democrats have beaten themselves.
Damned if they do.
Damned if they don't.

The Democrats have performed a miracle.
They have resurrected a DEAD Political Party and given them credibility for OPPOSING this dreadful Bill.
Even the Democrats admit the Premiums WILL RISE over the next few years.

ALL the Republicans have to do now is sit back and say, "YEP. WE opposed it.
The Democrats raised your Premiums and shoved it down your throats."
That WILL play well with low information America when the Premiums keep rising.

The Democrats rebuttal of, "Well your Premiums aren't going up as much as if we did nothing..." won't be easy to sell. Most will laugh at them, especially when the photos of the HI Execs standing in front of their NEW Summer Homes in Aspen start coming out.


The most aggravating part was watching the Democrats meekly hand over every single issue that the Republicans wanted without a fight.
We NOW have the Democrats fighting to pass a REPUBLICAN Health Care Bill, without forcing The Republicans to take ANY Political Risk.
The Republicans are going to look like heroes to the 45 Million Americans FORCED to BUY useless Health Insurance they can't afford to use.

...But keep on whistling.

[Raksha]

187. Normally I'm opposed to "sending a message" as a strategy,

but this is a very important point! The Democrats in Congress NEED to get the message that the base won't be jerked around any more. I'm with Dennis Kucinich: If the final version of this bill does not include a public option, I am telling my rep to vote NO!

[Bluenorthwest]

80. So when Obama voted with the GOP on the Teri Schaivo vote

it is then fair to say he stood with the Republicans. Same for his vote against the Uniting American Families Act, he stood with the GOP against equality on the basis of fear and dogma.
More than 20 Democrats are voting against the bill in the House. Yet you particularize your rantings on one single member. It is a note worthy.
But Schaivo, if this is the game, meant he watched that video diagnosis, and went with that. Voted that the government should interfere in family's end of life decisions. Stood with Video Bill Frist.

[The Magistrate]

93. Absolutely, Sir: That Is What He Did, And He Was Wrong To Do It

No one here, Sir, defends those other twenty members who voted against the House bill; there is no controversy concerning them, so there are seldom occasions to properly vent one's spleen over them. Since there are people here who not only defend but praise Rep. Kucinich, for casting exactly the same vote as the lowest Blue Dog, there is more occasion to engage on this narrow topic. But it does not matter to me whether voting alongside the republicans is done from the left or the right: whoever does it, and for whatever reason, is wrong.

[liberation]

189. Ah, logical dissonance at its finest...

... funny I used to think that logical dissonance, projection, and deflection of blame were some of the defining characteristics of most Republicans.

BTW, public officials are there to do the public's bidding, no the other way around. In a democracy, it is not up to the people to be in lock step with their politicians. But viceversa: the politicians should be in lock step with the will of the people.

Most people want actual meaningful reform, with actual public option at the very least, or single-payer in the most common of cases. This bill offers neither, so why should Mr. Kucinich be in "lockstep" with a bill which does not represent the will of the people? Does the whole concept of democracy ring foreign to some of you?

No riddle your way out of that. And don't call me sir or ma'am. I am not that old.

[Mithreal]

201. +1

[laughingliberal]

265. The difference here is Dennis would change his vote if a Public Option were added

The Republicans would still vote no.

[The Magistrate]

266. Perhaps, Ma'am

Perhaps he would then say, "Well, it is not single-payer, so I must make a stand....'

But it remains the case that a 'nay' vote from him is exactly the same as one from boehnor.

[laughingliberal]

318. He has said he would vote for a strong public option

Regardless, this bill is not coming down to one vote deciding it. The Blue Dogs seem to be skating, here and everyone's anger is towards a legislator who is opposing it cause he wants it to be better. And people here are giving a pass to those opposing it cause they want it to be worse? It's a little bit crazy.

[crikkett]

323. That Doesn't Mean He's Doing the Wrong Thing, Sir.

A public option is needed and wanted by enough people to justify his action.

[Ardent15]

82. Kucinich has no such obligation

He has an obligation to serve his constituents.

[The Magistrate]

101. So Long As He Calls Himself A Democrat, Sir, He Certainly Does

If he wants to run on the 'Ohio for Kucinich' ticket, or some such, then it would be different. But that is not what he does.

[Mithreal]

204. Laughable. Notice any other Dems run out of the party voting against the President?

Don't say Lieberman, don't you even dare.

[The Magistrate]

223. In This Forum, Sir, We Are Pretty Much United On the Impropriety Of 'Blue Dog' Votes

People will give them varying degrees of tolerance on the ground that they might lose their seats if they voted another way, but very seldom does anyone start a thread saying something like "Go Schuler! vote your conscience!" It is only because people sally forth to claim Rep. Kucinich does something wonderful when he casts the exact same vote as Schuler and the rest of the blue dogs and Republicans that you see the degree of heat towards Rep. Kucinich that you do. Most of it comes from people who think every Representative and Senator in our Party should stand together, and do not care why one does not.

[Mithreal]

228. You can't characterize or imply his vote as Blue Dog with a straight face.

That is hilariously rich. I am glad I heard it from you first.

[The Magistrate]

234. A 'Nay' Vote Is A 'Nay' Vote, Sir

There is no separate column tallying the reasons why, only the totals that determine passage or defeat. He votes with blue dogs and Republicans, he stands with them on the floor of the House, and no mistake. On this issue, the man is interchangeable with Boehnor and Cantor, by the only measure that matters, his vote on the bill.

[Mithreal]

244. You wouldn't have it any other way? Some aren't stupid enough to swallow that.

When the final vote is cast, if that is how you want to see it, who's to stop you.

The President knew the position of those who wanted SP or PO, knew what the American people wanted and needed. Yet, you focus on the vote of one man and how cruel, stupid or unparty-like it is. It's so important how people see that one representative's vote and that any nuance or complexity be squeezed out or ignored.

This is a distraction and diversion from the abandonment of focus on average Americans by President Obama. It will not be Kucinich's failure it will be Obama's and other New Dems. There are alternatives and I don't buy the excuses that we won't revisit this for 10 years.

This isn't about Kucinich or Congress, it is about the failure of our party to stand on principles that many of us naively believed this party possessed. Thankfully there are more of us than the unprincipled types.

[The Magistrate]

249. Rep. Kucinich Comes Under Fire Here, Sir, Because People Here Praise His Actions

Though they denounce persons on the other wing of the Party for doing exactly what he does. So long as this praise of Rep. Kucinich, flowing from this double standard, is offered, people who apply a consistent standard will point out the fact of the matter, that Rep. Kucinich in this matter is standing with Boehnor and Cantor, and not with President Obama and the Democratic Party.

[Mithreal]

254. We aren't going to agree on the framing.

There are 51 in the Senate who will vote for Public Option, that does seem to be a good chunk of the party, does it not? Or maybe, Obama is king and the others don't count? Or maybe the people, you know the average everyday ordinary people including the boots on the ground types aren't the party, you know the ones who want a public option. You, sir, have it wrong, you planted your feet in sand on this one. I get it that ordinarily, how you see it, is how things work. We'll that's about to change. Maybe not today, but I guarantee you, there is a better day coming.

[The Magistrate]

260. People Have Been Telling Me, Sir, A Better Day Is Coming, For a Long, Long Time....

"The most astonishing thing about tomorrow is how much it looks like today."

[Mithreal]

262. Motivational speaker?

You have a good weekend, I am going to take a break.

[The Magistrate]

264. Hard Old Man, Sir, Having Survived An Adventurous Youth....

"This is the best world possible; everything in it is a necessary evil."

[Enthusiast]

288. I'll be voting for Kucinich. nt

[harun]

84. His obligation is to stand up for what is right. And like usual, he is.

[The Magistrate]

103. So, Sir, You Consider Boehnor And Cantor Have The Right Side In This Coming Vote?

Because that is who Rep. Kucinich is standing up alongside.

[girl gone mad]

206. I find the guilt by association tactics to be..

beneath you.

[The Magistrate]

235. And The Guilt Of Association Rep. Kucinich Covers Himself With, Ma'am, Must Be Faced

It is a fact of the situation, and this is not the first time he has behaved in this manner.

[Mithreal]

209. Yes, obviously you don't see another frame that will fit. Either with us or against us.

And, I really get it, how one could see it that way. It must sound frighteningly convincing.

There's a name for those who sit back and watch our party be sacrificed to the unprincipled and profiteers. There's another for those who try and sell it.

The President is going to get his bill, you know it and I do too. Stop all this nonsense about Kucinich.

[GreenArrow]

False equivalence.

And you know better.

[The Magistrate]

243. No, Sir, An Actual Equivalence; Your Distaste For It Is Of No Consequence

[ShamelessHussy]

115. Speak for yourself

Sir

[The Magistrate]

116. Who Else Did You Imagine Me To Be Speaking For, Ma'am?

If he calls himself a Democrat, he should vote with the Party. If he wants to run on the 'Ohio for Kucinich' ticket, that would be something else again....

[ShamelessHussy]

150. Just wanted to make that clear, Sir

With regard to 'speaking nonsense'

[sabrina 1]

317. No, I'm afraid you are very wrong on this. There is absolutely

nothing to back you up on this, Magistrate. When people elect a candidate for Congress, it is because s/he, the individual has persuaded them that s/he will represent their interests. Independent voters, now a larger block than the base of either party, do not vote for a party whose interests are often far from their own. No Congress member is obligated to vote in lockstep with either party, and especially when that person knows the party is wrong.

When Tom Delay and the leadership and political operatives of the Republican Party twisted the arm of Rep. Smith, threatened and smeared him and finally got his vote, there were calls from OUR party for an ethics hearing on the case. Not to mention the outrage there was among democrats on progressive blogs. By your logic, it is Smith who was wrong. Republicans were right to expect him to vote against what he knew was right, for the sake of the party. But what about the country?

I will say in your favor you have been honest about your reasons. You have admitted what I have suspected was the reason for the attacks on Kucinich. NOT because he is wrong, everyone knows he is right. It is all about winning. Same old DC politics.

Nor does he 'stand with' Republicans. That phrase, and I see by your sigline you care about the meaning of words, implies 'agrees with'. He does not. He stands against them and did so when many Democrats were too cowardly to do so.

It is the Party that is standing with Republicans. Republicans do not oppose most of this bill but they will vote 'no' for political reasons, the same reasons why Dems will vote 'yes'. , as you have admitted, Which means, Democrats are standing with Republicans on what they consider to be priorities.

Therefore 'Stand with' applies far more accurately to the Parties than to individual members who vote for what is right. Both Parties share a belief that they do not have to do what is right, but they have the right to demand that their members support them, right or wrong.

I thought Democrats were different, now I see how they and Republicans stand together on how things are done in DC and all the talk of change was merely campaign rhetoric. If Dennis votes 'no' he will be standing where he belongs, with the people who elected him. Those who vote 'yes' will be voting with Republicans, agreeing with them on what a party's goals ought to be.

The 'heat' against Kucinich is because he is effective. When he manages to get on the air, he impresses people because he is informed and most of all, because of his sincerity which is obvious, it is clear he is honest, a rare commodity in DC. And his own party hates him for being honest.

You blame the wrong person for this dilemma. He is in no way responsible for the mess he is being asked to support.

And you are forgetting a very important thing. When a party loses its base, they lose power. That is what happened to the Republicans. If this bill passes, Democrats will lose their base. I know Democrats in Mass eg, who worked hard to get Obama elected but because of this HC debacle, did nothing to help save Ted Kennedy's seat. So turned off the Party, they decided to stay home.

Their sense of betrayal has made them cynical about supporting any candidate who makes promises in the campaign, who may end up doing a complete turnaround once they are elected.

The party has told their base to get lost. That is not a smart thing to do. And no one can blame anyone but the leadership of the party for the loss of support they will experiencing. Trying to shift the blame to one congressman won't be accepted except by a small minority.

[puebloknot]

118. He is apparently answering to a different drummer called "Integrity."

How does taking a principled stand on what is being called a "health care bill" put him in the same league with the reprobates you've listed?

People in their hundreds/thousands/millions stood by the party at Nuremberg. We don't want to go any further down that road, do we?

The quote you have in your sig line has no attribution. Care to share where it comes from?

[The Magistrate]

132. Over This, Ma'am, You Validate Godwin's Law With Citation Of The Nurenberg Rallies?

"My god man, slap yourself and think!"

[grantcart]

208. lol Godwin's law is the only sure thing on the internet

[puebloknot]

290. My God, Man, slap some part of yourself, and think about letting go ...

... of your inane and constant use of "sir" and "ma'am" in this forum. It's tiresome and boorish.

Naomi Wolfe and Sebastian Haffner (not to mention the many octagenarians who lived through WWII) are capable of seeing the parallels inherent in what is happening to our country, and what happened in Europe in the 1930s.

The Nuremberg Rallies are a *perfect* example of party loyalty carried to an extreme.

[druidity33]

154. What about those reprobates, Sir?

Do they not belong to Our party too? They are 13, Kucinich is 1. Ought not they vote with their party too? Do you assign as more egregious Rep Kucinich's highly principled stance, or that of 13 Senators who would abridge a woman's rights to her own body? Where is the comparable LEVEL OF OUTRAGE, Sir?

I hope you have been as outspoken in regards to the "Stupak bloc" as you have been Rep Kucinich's difficult decision here. Otherwise, i respectfully submit that perhaps you Sir, need be more forthright with your biases...

[Mithreal]

172. +1 The Magistrate is a party guy. Who knew?

[The Magistrate]

227. Stupak, et al, Sir Have Drawn Considerable Ire From Me

What they are doing, and have done, is inexcuseable. With any luck, Ms. Saltonstal will defeat Stupak in the primary coming up, or at least weaken him sufficiently he loses the general election. The man must be retired to private life; what he has done deserves, and requires, punishment.

[Mithreal]

229. Well said.

[bahrbearian]

281. Calling for Stupak to loose the general election is

in lockstep with the Repubilcans, I thought we were to vote party lines?

[Mithreal]

340. Ouch

[sabrina 1]

366. Then, may I ask. If this bill passes with his anti-women

amendment in it, should Democrats still vote for it?

[HughMoran]

161. He imagines that no other Democrats would like to take 'all or nothing' stances

It takes a certain amount of arrogance to think that you are the only one 'worthy' of taking a unyielding stance.

[Mithreal]

191. Yes, arrogance again. I don't think 'worthy' was quite the proper word choice.

Progressives are arrogant for representing average Americans. Definitely.

[HughMoran]

196. Admittedly, it wasn't my best choice of words

As the Magistrate so aptly pointed it out, if all Dems were as 'arrogant', they'd be the Party of Fail.

[Mithreal]

198. The party is already doing that very well itself.

Yes, his put downs are quite literary, if that is the right word, and he has quite a way with words. I am impressed. He adds beauty to compromise and failure that most find out of reach.

[HughMoran]

199. FAIL would be a repeat of 1994

...and it's clear that Dennis & all the Republicans would like nothing better.

[Mithreal]

203. Wonder who was running things back then and doing all the strategizing?

Would be a shame if those people were in any way, you know, involved in the current White House. Certainly might look bad if they slipped up and had another train wreck on their hands.

[The Magistrate]

246. Actaully, Sir, Attempts To Avoid Difficulties Encountered In '94 Are Much Of Our Problem Here

President Obama sought to buy off many of the private interests which overthrew President Clinton's efforts. He has largely kept his word, but the people he made the deals with have largely failed to keep theirs. The deal was that, in exchange for maintaining a private system, no opposition to the degree of reform presented would be offered. It is obvious that has been reneged on.

Of course, going into the matter, President Obama should have known these are people you cannot make a deal with; they are not honest, they are not 'stand up guys', their word is worth nothing, even with a knife at their throats.

[Mithreal]

250. Actually, Sir, I know about how these difficulties were interpreted.

And how they were maneuvering to avoid.

We are not so far apart then, I see.

[The Magistrate]

255. That Is Often The Case, Sir, That Differences Here Are Less Than Meet The Eye

This bill is far from ideal, to put it mildly, and were it coming to the floor as a final form in, say, last September, my attitude would be much different than it is at present. But this late in the Congress, with so much political capital invested in the thing, fair or foul as it may be, the consequences of its failing carry would be disaster. To appear ineffectual is the worst thing possible in a democracy; it is better to do something wrong than to fail in doing something you have proclaimed you will do.

[girl gone mad]

210. "Public Option or nothing" != "All or nothing".

[HughMoran]

218. With this Congress

Yeah, it appears at this time that this is true. He's certainly not helping get a PO into the reconciliation bill - in fact, I have no idea what he's doing to help pass a PO besides saying it on TV. Sadly, outside of DU he doesn't pull a lot of weight, so he needs to do more than 'talk'.

[Mithreal]

237. Interestingly, I hear, that things happen in Congress that don't appear on tv

I didn't believe it either.

I heard nearly a third of DU actually lives in his district too, amazing.

[HughMoran]

239. Not. Beyond. Reproach.

Criticize. Obama. For. Cult. Of. Personality. Followers.

Receive. Karma.

The. End.

[Mithreal]

247. That is imaginative, especially with all the periods.

Maybe you could be more clear or have you been saving that one and decided it felt right?

[HughMoran]

248. The. End.

:P

[Mithreal]

256. .

:applause:

have a good weekend, Hugh

[HughMoran]

258. you too

:D

[mkultra]

345. your flat wrong.

[Hansel]

312. Bingo.

This is what I find so annoying about DK. I just haven't figure out how to put it in words.

When he takes these stances he attempts to play the righteous martyr like no one else he serves with can possibly represent their constituents the way he does. That they are betrayers of the cause and he is the true hero. That they don't feels that same way and that somehow he is the "worthy" one just grates at me.

Grayson is the one who really plays the role that Kucinich supporters believe Dennis is. He is true to his causes but also to his constituents. He strives to get the best deals he can and as accepts when it's time to live to fight another day. I respect that.

There are plenty of others serving in congress who feel the same way about the issues, but they are at least honest enough not to pretend that by acting this way they are going to benefit their constituents. They are the brave ones who take unpopular stances to move the ball forward. To me DK's behavior is far less admirable than those who don't pose in the halo of glory for their constituents knowing that there is no way what "he alone" is "fighting for" has absolutely no way of passing. He know that he is really creating less of a chance they will ever get what they want, but it serves his purpose.

[Mithreal]

343. How much of this is your perception vs. reality.

Kick him, kick him again. That's it, you are getting the hang of it. Let's all kick a guy with principles and paint it as grandstanding.

Republicans aren't the only ones with assholes, no offense. I'll admit I can be one too, what's new.

[Hansel]

364. See that's where you and I disagree. Grayson has principals.

Kucinich not so much.

[Mithreal]

369. -1

[suzie]

167. +1,000

[Mithreal]

171. -10000, ouch. You are gonna have to +1000 nine more times to make up for that.

[Mithreal]

170. -1 He has an obligation to stand for those he represents.

[xocet]

176. Yes, Sir, the Democratic Party Pledge....

"I pledge allegiance to the vote of the Democratic Party of America,
and to the feckless failure for which it stands,
one craven collapse after another, inevitable,
with hope and change for none."

You know, Sir, you are right: :sarcasm: I had forgotten that this oath was a requirement to serve as a Democrat in Congress. That damn Kucinich - he's violated the oath again.

Interestingly, the Republicans take a different oath:

"I pledge allegiance to the vote of the Republican Party of America,
and to free market for which it stands,
one nation under God, unregulated,
with wealth and power for us."

[The Magistrate]

233. The Problem With That Exercise In Hyper-Cute, Sir

Is that if members of our Party in Congress habitually did vote in a bloc, most of what you complain of would not occur. It is precisely because Democratic Senators and Representatives cannot be relied on to vote as the majority of our caucus would vote that sets up our initiatives for collapse. Rep. Kucinich in this regard is no better than a blue dog, and both do considerable harm.

[xocet]

282. Regrettable, indeed....

The earlier missive of mine ought not to have been misconstrued as an improper exercise in hyperbolic sarcasm, my good Sir.

Despite the relentless and stilted endeavours to converse which you frequently undertake - endeavours which manifest themselves bodily in an undignified bastardisation of the proper, yet antiquated, etiquette upon which proper society is founded - this game stands concluded and quite rightly so! Though often of common stock, any worthy magistrate would argue for the elevation of principle to its proper height; craven, indeed, is the course which you hold high. Verily is not shame-laden disgrace part and parcel of your recommended course?

Sadly, this vile abandonment of principle that you drive before all readers of your scribblings, my good Sir, marks your station and competence rather more as a Victorian butler than as a proper magistrate. Remember your Catullus, man, if ever you knew it at all - "risu inepto res ineptior nulla est" - and grasp at your dignity before you find it gone!

Thus, to you, Sir, I bid farewell.


<translation>
Note: Dennis Kucinich is making a principled stand. This stand is important for both ideology and negotiation. The above is a parody of your stilted communication style. However, if you intend to be a continually-deepening parody of yourself, you are doing fine, and I withdraw my commentary on your style and my objections to the number of spelling mistakes in your posts.
</translation>

[bahrbearian]

306. A perfect reply

I look forward to reading more posts from you.

[liberation]

177. LOL, so the night shift is here now...

Party over country. Got it.

[berni_mccoy]

182. Well said sir.

[Mithreal]

193. and the centrists form a line to offer backslaps and cigars

[berni_mccoy]

207. You are one sad person to think I or the Magistrate are centrists. McCarthy would be proud of you.

[Mithreal]

213. Yes, it must be that. I have read many of your posts. I see the field you play on.

Sometimes it just looks like a duck, if so, I'll be proven wrong and even admit it, but not based upon what I have seen lately.

[berni_mccoy]

220. Yeah, calling bullshit on the extremely hyperbolic crap that gets posted around here

makes one a centrist. The problem is people like you can't handle the fucking truth because you live in Kucinich reality... you know, the reality where 3 out of 98 bills actually get passed and actually help no one.

[Mithreal]

222. Swing and a miss, Strike 1, please try again.

[berni_mccoy]

269. Based on that lame response, I'd say the ball just flew over your center fielder's head

way over.

[Mithreal]

278. .

We'll have something of substance to discuss another time.

Take it easy.

[pundaint]

330. Would that be the McCarthy who glossed people further to the Left than they actually were?

[truedelphi]

190. Yes, I mean, mi gawd, when will Dennis learn that the Corporate Way is the only way

And maybe if he joined our fair President, he could have some of the ten billion bucks Rahm will collect from Industry on Mr Obama's behalf shift over to him.

What an irresponsible nit wit - thinking he can be in office and stand up for the little people.

Not in this day and age.



Another message brought to you by:

Vichy Care. We take your premium dollars so other insurers don't get them.

Insure the ones you love for just $ 1 a year.

[Mithreal]

194. You are a New Dem or you are nobody.

[truedelphi]

197. Being a New Dem is the only way to be.

I have only been a New Dem for 48 hours, and already I am worth sixty five million bucks!

It is really the only way to go.

Vichy Care. We take your premium dollars so other insurers don't get them.

Health care for the ones you love - for just $ 1 a year...

[harmonicon]

231. oh, yeah, that's how it works...

Congressional representatives are elected by the party to represent the party. That is their legal obligation. Sure thing. What sort of bizarro world do you live in? What is the president's job? Is it the obligation of firemen to wear fire hats and slide down poles? Forget about putting out fires if it doesn't involve sliding down a pole and wearing a neat hat. You seriously have some fucking screws loose.

[The Magistrate]

240. In Any Legislature, Sir

A party which hangs together in a disciplined bloc will prevail over a party which does not, almost irrespective of numbers.

[harmonicon]

268. yes, and? the party that jumps off a cliff is a good party?

If most of the party wants to jump off of a cliff every other member should? There is no logic in that. If the party leadership wanted to re-instate Jim Crow laws, Kucinich should go along with that? Because it would facilitate maintaining a "disciplined block"? The holes in this logic argument are massive.

[watajob]

267. So, you're either with us ...

... or against us. Hmmmm, where have I heard that before?

[coti]

274. Not on this one, Mag- this is one of those issues where loyalty votes hurt.

Loyalty matters, but the healthcare issue is just too big. What Obama is proposing entails an extremely long-term commitment. It's not right to make such a commitment to a plan that isn't at least going in the right direction.

I'm not often on Kucinich's side, but on this one he's absolutely right.

[Enthusiast]

285. His obligation is to

his constituents. Polls demonstrate the people do not want mandates unless there is a public option. Fuck the party. The party is as good as dead.

[pocoloco]

291. Bullshit! Standing for the party instead of principles led to

all the woes placed upon the world by the repugs!!

[ProgressOnTheMove]

293. +1

[alarimer]

324. Sorry. Principles before party, every single time.

The Democratic Party faithful are a bunch of clueless idiots. We need to STOP voting for the lesser of the evils and start voting for people (unlike Obama) who actually mean what they say and will do the right thing. Instead of voting for the Democratic corporate whore over the Republican corporate whore.

I HATE the Democrats ALMOST as much as I hate Republicans. Spineless pieces of shit, with the exception of a notable few, like Kucinich, Feingold. My favorite, though, is Bernie Sanders, who is actually a Socialist.

[ananda]

4. And the public option is already a second best compromise.

I like Kucinich.

[Mithreal]

224. Absolutely. We were offered change and found compromise acceptable.

We don't need to give any more bailouts to those who are killing Americans with their greed.

[Yuugal]

5. Koooooooooch!

[Greyhound]

134. ..

[jannyk]

6. Thank You, Dennis! k&r

[laughingliberal]

7. It does seem the idea of bringing pressure to bear while momentum is building for a Public Option

would be a good idea. Why is it that every Blue Dog who threatened to tank the bill got a big ole' wet kiss while the leadership said, "Oh, yes Sir. Anything else we can do to screw the people for you, Sir?" But we have vilification of a Representative who speaks out for a proposal 70% of the American people want? Does this make sense to anyone?

on edit: Keep those phone lines and inboxes buzzing. If they're determined to screw us, they need to, at least, know it's not going unnoticed.

[Jefferson23]

9. Not to me it doesn't, makes no sense at all.

[laughingliberal]

14. delete. nt

[Jefferson23]

23. I always fight back, doesn't mean we'll win, but they need to know

I will not call this bill anything but what it is. Progressives Dems will receive my money and time, not the DNC, not Obama.

[laughingliberal]

45. +1 nt

[Greyhound]

155. +01

[Blue_In_AK]

8. I tend to agree with Dennis.

Personally, I think this bill is a big mess, and probably isn't going to accomplish much, after all the sound and fury. I hope I'm wrong.

[Mari333]

10. yep and he exposed the sellouts by doing so

knr

[glitch]

73. Which is exactly why they despise him so much.

That is where they at least have some transparency.

[Pirate Smile]

11. Luckily, others will take a stand for the 31 million uninsured who will now get coverage and those

coverage and those with pre-existing conditions who will also now get coverage.

[Hissyspit]

16. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7903161

[Vinca]

24. Some of us won't get coverage if we have to pay 3X the going rate

because of pre-existing conditions and advanced age. In fact, we'll be worse off because we'll end up paying a penalty. The bill will definitely cover some, but if you think 31 million will be covered, I've got a tower in Paris for sale.

[ima_sinnic]

28. "coverage"? or simply a huge bill that is just the tip of the iceberg of bills to come

if, heaven forbid, they actually need to use that insurance?
why does everybody assume paying exorbitant amounts of money for unregulated, mandated "health insurance" with huge copays and deductibles is a good thing?

oh boy! I have to buy health insurance now! but will I dare to use it? I think not.

[saracat]

31. Except they won't, really.

[Marr]

71. They should pass a law that says everyone must fly like Superman.

That'd solve my commuting problem just like insurance mandates solve my healthcare problem.

[Roland99]

215. You actually believe that? Haven't you noticed the # of companies DROPPING coverage?

Haven't you noticed insurance companies raising the floor by jacking up premiums NOW so that when then have to cover pre-existing conditions, that ceiling of double the cheapest policy is all that much higher?

[Hansel]

308. I believe that if they want to get on the exchange they are going to have

to meet certain requirements. That is where the government's leverage is to control cost. Because there are insurance companies that are not going to sacrifice the opportunity to pick up customers by playing games that are going to keep them out of the exchange.

The one's that insure people with no other options basically are exploiting for profit. It's going to be a lot harder to do that when they have to compete against the exchange from the outside. They aren't going to be able to segregate these people out anymore because they will have somewhere else to turn.

Does this go far enough? Probably not. But it is a start. And as fears over HCR subside it's going to be easier to tighten up the laws and offer a public option.

If you want the public option it would seem that you would want this bill to pass and the insurance companies to continue their behavior. It will just make it easier to pass a public option and prove you right. But they are going to continue to jack up their rates if this bill isn't pass and that's a guarantee. I think that is a lot less likely to happen if it is.

[Raineyb]

338. Ah the exchange. The tired old canard of the exchange rears its ugly head.

And when do you think this exchange will kick in?

I just listened to the Friday edition of the Thom Hartmann show and in order to make the bill fit in with its budgetary requirements for reconciliation the exchange has been pushed back to 2017. And the mandate to purchases starts when again?

Not buying it at all.

[girl gone mad]

219. Who is going to stand up for the millions who will be forced to give up..

whatever care they are getting now? People who have found ways to work without insurance in this - system through negotiated deals w/ their doctors and local clinics or even medical tourism? People who prefer alternative therapies? These folks will now be forced to buy into a system that may not serve them as well or at all, with no means of opting out. Who speaks for them?

[Mithreal]

232. Debunking your brand of silliness is getting tiresome

[freddie mertz]

295. They won't get coverage. They will get expensive, mandated for profit insurance.

It's all the wording, you see.

Add a public option, then we can talk.

[democracy1st]

29. K & R for democracynow!

[L0oniX]

130. +1 for Democracy Now ...one of the last trustable news sources. FSTV

[Echo In Light]

34. k/r for DK

[ProSense]

40. He took a stand for the public option by voting against it in the House bill?

What a crock!

[AnOhioan]

44. here we go again...debunked, many times

[ProSense]

67. Saying anything doesn't make it so:

Kucinich: Why I Voted NO

“By incurring only a new requirement to cover pre-existing conditions, a weakened public option, and a few other important but limited concessions, the health insurance companies are getting quite a deal. The Center for American Progress’ blog, Think Progress, states “since the President signaled that he is backing away from the public option, health insurance stocks have been on the rise.” Similarly, healthcare stocks rallied when Senator Max Baucus introduced a bill without a public option. Bloomberg reports that Curtis Lane, a prominent health industry investor, predicted a few weeks ago that “money will start flowing ...

The House bill included a public option, he voted against it. Why is he talking about the Baucus bill?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Ed, it‘s good to be with you. And I just want to say that the characterization that I don‘t care is not correct. I do care. I care that this bill privatizes health care, that it took out public option, that it doesn‘t protect states that want to create a single payer system. And that, in fact, there is no control in premiums. I care a lot about that.

SCHULTZ: OK. Then why not give the president a victory and vote for it?

KUCINICH: Well, this isn‘t about whether the president has a victory. This is about whether the American people are going to win. If you give the insurance companies $70 billion, why do they have to put the middleman in there? Why do they have to be in there at all? Why not just create a system where the money goes right to the people without the insurance companies getting a cut? Why do you have to give the insurance companies a cut? Why was the public option taken out? Why can‘t states have the ability to create their own single payer system without getting attacked by...

SCHULTZ: That‘s a great point, Congressman. And you know I‘ve got great respect for you. I saw the president yesterday. It‘s the most passionate he‘s been. He admitted that they‘re going to be getting 30 million more customers. But, you know, they‘re a big player at table and this is all a part of negotiation. Can‘t you accept some incremental steps? And the public option‘s not dead with this letter that‘s being circulated over on the Senate side. If you guys in the House vote yes on this and come back through reconciliation in the Senate, we might get the public option. But we can‘t do it if there are people on the left such as yourself—I got great respect for you—who are saying, no way, can‘t do it. What about this scenario?

KUCINICH: Well, you have to remember, Ed, I started out with a compromise on the public option. I voted for it in committee. And I also passed through committee an amendment that would protect the right of states to have single payer. I had worked to compromise. And I‘m not beyond trying to see if there is a way to work out a bill. But what‘s happened is that every step that you look at to try to improve the bill, the insurance companies keep winning. And every time they win, their stocks go up and the American people are getting ready to be hosed by this.

link

The question then becomes, why did he vote against the bill that included the public option?

Kucinich is hopping from one excuse to another.

[AnOhioan]

69. The answer is right in your own post

"a weakened public option," -- aka not worth a wooden nickel

But you already know your argument is false.

And everyone else knows that your utter hatred of anything and everything Dennis related is the reason for all the negative posts.

Your posts say more about you than they do Dennis.

[ProSense]

75. So he voted for a "weakened public option" and is asking Schultz why it was taken out

after voting against it?

Ridiculous.

[AnOhioan]

77. Yep...your reasoning is ridiculous

Feel free to keep up the hate...you just entered my ignore list. Life is far too short to argue with those would distort facts.

[ProSense]

86. Unable to refute the point

so you'll just ignore it. Typical.

[Greyhound]

89. Look at his user name. n/t

[saracat]

99. Delete

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr.Phool]

319. Don't know who it is. They're already on mine.

[druidity33]

299. Why is he talking about the Baucus bill?

I believe that's the bill he will be voting on. Remember, it didn't go back to committee, so they never reconciled the 2 bills... they want the House to pass the Senate bill. They're even trying to pass it without any amendments... specifically so that a Public Option cannot be added. At first they told us, we could do it if we only needed 51, but since we need 60, we can't. But now that we only need 51 and the whip count is pretty darn close to that, they're whipping AGAINST it?

Glennzilla is right. Obama and his administration have never wanted a Public Option... and they are doing what they can to strike it from the agenda.

As for Kucinich, he stated his reasons for voting against the bill quite clearly. They are all sensible. He has taken a righteous stance on more than a few occasions and he knows people will decry him for it. It's pathetic that people will spend so much time and energy tearing down Rep Kucinich, when there are so many more worthy targets for ire. Dennis' heart is in the exact right place... and if you can't see that, i don't know what else to say to you.

:shrug:

[sabrina 1]

342. Thanks for those links. It reminds me of why I support

Kucinich. He hits the nail on the head more succinctly than anyone else right now and should not have to be the one to remind the Democratic Party who they represent.

As for your question, do you read the articles you link to? He answers your distorted question right in the article.

Go Dennis!

And as he said, he got an amendment through committee to protect the right of states to have single payer if they want it.

Who killed that amendment?

And who killed Dorgan's amendment?

The more you try to excuse the behavior of the Dem Party, they more you remind people of their disingenuousness. No Party who supported the platform they ran on, would have killed every amendment that helped keep those promises. It's clear that the Insurance Corps had the Dems in their pockets from the beginning, and Dennis is the thorn in their side who keeps exposing them.

He is quite an effective member of Congress, gaining respect the more he stands his ground. He should run for the Senate after this bill passes because when he is proven right, which he will be, we will need people like him in the Senate.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

164. Indeed he did.

In favor of the original plan, against the useless, unenforceable, corporate giveaway it was turned into.

But then, you know all that.

[flvegan]

51. The insurance companies must HATE Kucinich.

Calling a duck a duck, or bullshit bullshit.

[branders seine]

60. Weird. He sounds like a Democrat.

I haven't heard one of those in the last 30 years.

Sounds good!

[troubledamerican]

286. + 1

[Edweird]

72. Thank you Kucinich for standing up for us.

[Individualist]

81. It's disgusting that the rest of the congresscritters don't stand for the people.

Bravo DK!

[suzie]

169. It is unfortunate when the congresspersons don't stand for the people.

However, some of them do most of the time, some part of the time, some a small part of the time, and Dennis Kucinich who stands only for himself and his grandiose ego.

[liberation]

183. Kucinich's grandiose ego?

Say whaaaaaaa?

[Bluenorthwest]

83. In a sea of craven rhetoric, taking a stand can be the best thing

and I am glad Dennis and a handful of others are still Democrats. The rest, well, at least now I know.

[Hansel]

309. Yes it can when the time is right. But that time has passed and it's time to get it done.

Knowing when to take a stand and knowing when to live to fight another day are also important.

[Uncle Joe]

92. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.:thumbsup:

[SlingBlade]

98. K & R Thanks

[G_j]

102. kick for truth telling nt

[mzmolly]

107. mzmolly: Grayson and Weiner make much more sense.

Thanks Al and Anthony. ;)

[upi402]

114. " 65% of respondents want a public health care option"

A New York Times/CBS poll found that 65% of respondents want a public health care option, while only 26% opposed such a plan.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/25/poll-public-option-favore_n_299669.html

__________________________________________________

found that 72 percent of those questioned supported a government-administered insurance plan -- something like Medicare

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/06/poll-overwhelming-majority-of-americans-support-public-insurance-option.php

__________________________________________________

EVEN SCOTT BROWN VOTERS WANT THE PUBLIC OPTION, WANT DEMOCRATS TO BE BOLDER

VOTERS OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORT THE PUBLIC OPTION

* 82% of Obama voters who voted for Brown
* 86% of Obama voters who stayed home

http://act.boldprogressives.org/cms/sign/mapollresults


(k/r)

[tabasco]

119. This episode reminds me of when "liberals" failed to support HH Humphrey

and we got Nixon instead.

[anonymous171]

128. Citizens are not obligated to support their politicians.

[ShamelessHussy]

123. Thank you Sir

Its good to have someone willing to fight for the people still in elected office!

[grahamhgreen]

127. Yes he does - the "leadership" is dead wrong on this one! Thanks Dennis, I think my guy is on board

[Greyhound]

133. +01

[grahamhgreen]

272. My prog caucus rep my hold the line with Dennis.

[Kltpzyxm]

129. Thanks indeed Dennis

Don't let the others cave in easily, just so they can have a "win"

[Cleita]

135. Thank you Dennis for making a stand in spite of the criticism and

half truth accusations that are being hurled at you.

[bvar22]

142. Thank You, Dennis, for a principled stand.

If we had a hundred more like you, we would see Medicare for All.
FDR would stand with you, and "Welcome their hatred."

[Maat]

159. +1

Well-put!

[craigmatic]

157. That's all well and good but if he's not going to gather votes for it

then what's he really doing? Grandstanding for grandstanding's sake isn't going to help real people even if it's for a good cause.

[bvar22]

165. I WANT someone standing in front of the Grandstand shouting the TRUTH.

I WANT at least ONE Democrat "On the Record".

For Profit Health Insurance is the PROBLEM!
Not the Solution!

Thank You, Dennis for standing in front of the Grandstand and shouting the Truth.
You speak for ME!

[liberation]

178. So How does an utterly compromised bill that does effect little to no meaningful change

help real people instead?

Is there some pixie dust that gets triggered by the Dems passing down something, anything, no matter how watered down... which makes people's health care concerns disappear?

[craigmatic]

289. If the bill outlaws the practice of not insuring people with pre-existing conditions then it's worth

voting for. We might as well see reality here there isn't going to be a public option (I wish there was but there isn't going to be). Kucinich is being unreasonable just because he wants to stay pure.

[DisgustedInMN]

158. Thank you Dennis Kucinich...

.. there are too few real Democrats in DC. I regret not writing your name onto my ballot in 2008, a mistake I won't mak eagain.

[Maat]

160. +1

I, too, feel the same way.

[HughMoran]

163. I hope you thank Stupak as well

They stand side by side in their effort to destroy the Democratic Party.

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inna]

367. lol, what a mind numbingly moronic comment.

(I meant, moranic.) :crazy:

[Orsino]

166. "Remember, thou art mortal."

He's right, and we need at least one representative to remind us of that.

I'm not sure that he's right about killing the bill, but this is indeed our last chance for a pale shadow of the single-payer we actually need.

[nightrain]

173. knr. DK speaks the principled truth.

[Dinger]

174. Kick And Rec # 82, and Thanks kpete!

:patriot:

[Arkana]

180. ...except Kooch voted against the bill containing a public option.

Sorry, Dennis. Your politics may be left-wing, but your philosophy is nothing more than grandstanding.

[dana_b]

184. wow

Kucinich is good but have you all see GDP today? Maybe March 13th should know be called "Kucinich Day" here at DU. They are seriously going a bit crazy over there.

[girl gone mad]

225. I have finally started using the ignore feature.

It makes DU more like it used to be!

[gulliver]

205. The fat lady sings for the public option then.

A Kucinich stand for a cause is the kiss of death for it.

[Roland99]

212. Only because he stands against Corporate rule and all of the GOP and many of the Dems (the DLCers)

are all 100% corporate whores.

[Mithreal]

216. We have 51 in the Senate. It's not over until it's signed.

You better have made a difference and still can.

www.whipcongress.com

[neuvocat]

230. Kucinich was (is?) anti-choice in 2002:

One thing you won't find on Kucinich's website, though, is any mention of his opposition to abortion rights. In his two terms in Congress, he has quietly amassed an anti-choice voting record of Henry Hyde-like proportions. He supported Bush's reinstatement of the gag rule for recipients of US family planning funds abroad. He supported the Child Custody Protection Act, which prohibits anyone but a parent from taking a teenage girl across state lines for an abortion. He voted for the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which makes it a crime, distinct from assault on a pregnant woman, to cause the injury or death of a fetus. He voted against funding research on RU-486. He voted for a ban on dilation and extraction (so-called partial-birth) abortions without a maternal health exception. He even voted against contraception coverage in health insurance plans for federal workers--a huge work force of some 2.6 million people (and yes, for many of them, Viagra is covered). Where reasonable constitutional objections could be raised--the lack of a health exception in partial-birth bans clearly violates Roe v. Wade, as the Supreme Court ruled in Stenberg v. Carhart--Kucinich did not raise them; where competing principles could be invoked--freedom of speech for foreign health organizations--he did not bring them up. He was a co-sponsor of the House bill outlawing all forms of human cloning, even for research purposes, and he opposes embryonic stem cell research. His anti-choice dedication has earned him a 95 percent position rating from the National Right to Life Committee, versus 10 percent from Planned Parenthood and 0 percent from NARAL.


http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020527/pollitt

[flvegan]

253. 100% from NARAL in 2003. Some folks wake up. You should try it.

Unless it's just talking points you're after.

Read this, maybe it'll make some sense...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0223-05.htm

[pundaint]

339. The Democratic leadership are anti-people in 2010

They're voting to spend more on war
To approve the continuation of a historically obvious futile war we can't afford
To guarantee Insurance companies a bounty on our successes and failures to prevent illness in perpetuity
They're weakly defending the environment
They're not protecting America's jobs, or currency
They've renewed the theft of civil rights rammed through Congress under false pretenses despite a manifest understanding of the lies leading to the first passage
They've lied and postured, and ratcheted downward the cost/benefit ratio of HCR to the People's interests until it is now negative.

You takes your pick. I pick Dennis, People first.

[sabrina 1]

347. Yes, and isn't it great that he was open-minded enough

to consider the fact that he might have been wrong?

What's your point? Did you want him to NOT change his mind? Do you want all Congressmembers who are wrong on issues to refuse to consider, as he did, that they might be wrong? That doesn't make sense.

What a silly post ~ if that's all the anti-Public Option crowd can come with, it shows what an honest man Kucinich is and how dis-honest they are.

[NorthCarolina]

236. K&R for America's Congressman. eom

[defendandprotect]

259. Love to Kucinich . . . any reform of HC is meaningless without at least the compromise PO . . .!!!

MEDICARE FOR ALL!!! NOW . . .!!!

[unkachuck]

261. thanks Dennis....

....stand firm, stand tall....forced privatization of our healthcare system is not worth the few scraps of bread we'll receive in exchange....you and a few others are representing and demanding what the true Left wants, what most Americans want, a guaranteed affordable healthcare system that works for us....

....anything less, is just corporate propaganda....

[valerief]

270. I LOVE DK! nt

[Bluesbreaker]

273. The Bill is Basically Flawed

Unlike social security, Medicaid and Medicare, which are based on a public program, the Senate Bill would further entrench corporate interests in our health care system. Only a public option could make it acceptable. And now that the PO is gone, the bill should be defeated. Good for Dennis Kucinich. Shame on Obama and the corporatist wing of the Democratic Party.

[Jim Sagle]

276. Good for Kucinich. You don't have to choose him as a Presidential candidate to admire a stand on a

very important Democratic principle.

:headbang:

[flyarm]

279. Thank you Dennis for standing for "the people"...and not being bought off by the corporate powers

that "own" so many other democrats in office!

This bill is horse shit and no dressing it up will make it better!

It is anti democratic!

[upi402]

283. Dennis was not allowed in "Democratic" nomination debates

and no "Democrats" stood arm in arm with him. Tells me all I need to know about who doesn't value open government, and whose voice they wanted silenced.

Edwards surprised me, now I understand what was up though. He would betray his wife to get what he wanted. And he was stupid enough to tape it too! Self-absorbed. Huckster.

[Enthusiast]

284. Dennis understands

that the people want a public option if they are going to have mandates. The polls bear this out. I am with Dennis.

[pecwae]

292. K&R for DK.

[lonestarnot]

298. K & R Dennis!

[Crunchy Frog]

300. In the end, I hope he votes for it, even if it's not perfect.

The Democratic party will be destroyed if we are not able to get something passed. I don't want to see the perfect become the enemy of the good as we can possibly get at this time, and much better than what we have now.

[pundaint]

344. Dennis isn't demanding Perfect, Nancy isn't proposing Good

[Crunchy Frog]

350. Okay, but if something doesn't pass, I will never vote Democratic again,

the Dems having definitively proven their worthlessness even in the face of overwhelming majorities.

[RoccoR5955]

305. WTG Dennis. We know that you work for WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations! n/t

[PeaceNikki]

311. It can be argued that Kucinich is pushing the party/HCR MORE to the right.

Interesting comment from Nate Silver's thread today: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/03/stats-say-kucinich-may-be-least.html

Mainer said...
I'd argue that Kucinich pushes the party RIGHT, not left.

The thing is, if Kucinich votes no, then the Democratic leadership has to get the vote elsewhere and the main stash of votes on the bubble are from Blue Dogs. Thus they end up either changing the bill to appeal to them or cutting a deal on another legislative priority (or simply putting in an earmark) to get that other vote.

If Kucinich had voted with the leadership to begin with, that wouldn't be necessary.
March 14, 2010 8:55 AM

[cornermouse]

314. It could also be argued that people are

merely showing their true colors. Do you really want to go there?

[PeaceNikki]

315. Meaning what? Go where?

[Dr.Phool]

320. I could argue that the moon is made of mozzarella.

I could argue that a horse is a cat.

I could make all kinds of stupid arguments. It wouldn't make me right.

THANK YOU DENNIS!!!!

[Starry Messenger]

316. Didn't President Obama say he wouldn't sign a bill without the Public Option?

Why are some folks whaling on Dennis for essentially taking the same stand as the President's stated claim? :shrug: Curious...must be some folk already know that President Obama is going to go back on his stated word. How cynical.

[Dr.Phool]

321. And they believed him!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Name removed]

326. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

327. I'm just pointing out the double standard

I guess I should have included the sarcasm thingy.

[crikkett]

322. My Hero.

:loveya:

[pleah]

336. K&R

[mkultra]

341. If i end up with NO healthcare reform because of this douche.

i will do EVERYTHING in my abilities to insure he never gets elected again.

[sabrina 1]

346. And if I end up with the IRS after me because I excercise

my right not to buy a shoddy product from a corrupt private business, I will work hard to make sure that every member of Congress who supported this travesty of a bill never gets elected again. I will also work hard to get Kucinich elected, preferably to the Senate and try to find more Congressmembers with the spine he has to help him when he stands up for principles and the American people.

If you end up without insurance, it will be the fault of the leadership of this party.

[Name removed]

349. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

352. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inna]

368. +100

[DisgustedInMN]

361. Maybe you need to contact Barack Obama..

.. and have him capitulate to Rep. Kucinich, after all surrendering without a fight is what he does best. Problem solved.

[Echo In Light]

371. How will the "douche" prevent your "HC reform?"

[bos1]

351. where can I find a list of house members and where they stand?

I want to call my Congressmen and women and make sure they vote yes

[ncteechur]

354. I think he is the same as Bart Stupak. No difference at all. Both are against for "principle"

[freddie mertz]

362. False equivalence. Stupak opposes women's rights. Dennis supports the RIGHT to HC.

There is a big difference between their positions.

It is a MORAL difference.

[sallyseven]

355. No you don't Dennis you need to

vote yes on this bill and shut up. You are becoming a clown and enabler of the repuk party. Grow up.

[wildbilln864]

356. k&r! nt

[humbled_opinion]

357. Exactly...

Dennis pegs it who would have thought that a Democrat Majority in Congress and a Democrat (supposed Progressive) in the White House would allow this particular piece of crap to become law?

The irony of this is that the amount of political will that the Democrats are pouring into this foul legislation is likely to get them booted form Congress in 2010 and return the Repubes to power.

You would think that if they were going to expend this much political capital they should at least get something that has a Public Option in it.

There is not enough lipstick in the world to make this pig look pretty by November. The smartest thing in the world would be to kill it and blame the Republicans as being obstructionists.

[upi402]

370. +1^

:kick:

[karynnj]

373. "privatization of our healthcare system" ???

This bill actually expands the number covered by public coverage because it expands Medicaid. You can't privatize what already is private. Now, if people were moved from Medicare and Medicaid to the private sector he would have a point.