Gibbs: By next Sunday, healthcare reform will be 'law of the land'

[cal04]

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/86623-gibbs-by-next-sunday-healthcare-will-be-law-of-the-land

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said the healthcare bill will pass by next weekend.

"We'll have the votes when the House votes, I think, within the next week," Gibbs said on "Fox News Sunday."

Gibbs added that those on next week's Sunday talk shows "will be talking about healthcare not as a presidential proposal but I think as the law of the land."

President Barack Obama will look to campaign on the new healthcare law in midterm elections, Gibbs said.

[Botany]

1. Obama will look to campaign on the new healthcare law in midterm elections

aka this will be a fucking nightmare for the republicans and there is nothing they can do about it.

[Change Happens]

12. +1

[Botany]

17. I am not thrilled w/ the product and it must be changed ASAP but ...

.... it has to pass.

[Change Happens]

26. Please see # 21....nt

[Botany]

40. I am scared witless of this bill's possibility of dumping billions into the ...

.... private for profit health care industry which in turn will let them buy more
congress critters, media, and "grass roots support" but letting the current
system continue is even worse.

Over time we must get a single payer government run system and allow for the
re-importation of drugs from cheaper places. This has to be only a start and not
like NAFTA a project we will work on later.

[Change Happens]

45. Agreed regarding single payer...etc. AND:

We have right now, as part of the latest President's revision, a mechanism to control cost, at least not let them raise rates as they wish...etc. They will have to have approval, run potential increases by insurance commissioners and justify them, this is works well for us here in Florida for property insurance.

When their antitrust exemption is gone, we will be in a much better place too.

The exchange itself as is right now, is also a step in the right direction, they will have to display their rates right there next to each other...We see this right now in the Medicare part D drugs plan (I work in the industry), you go online to shop for a plan and they are all right there, cheaper and cheaper side by side from many many different companies...etc. we will have the same here.

[Kalun D]

72. Suicide

""Over time we must get a single payer government run system and allow for the
re-importation of drugs from cheaper places. This has to be only a start and not
like NAFTA a project we will work on later. ""

new method of easy suicide. Hold your breath waiting for this to happen.

[eridani]

97. The Repukes will LOVE campaigning on mandates and benefits taxes n.t

[Myrina]

2. Goddess help us all as we enter indentured servitude to CIGNA.

:(

[nightrain]

62. exactly. The private insurance corporations will have finally

tapped and sapped the people dry, legally!

Most Congresspeople won't have to be concerned about it though, their incomes won't be touched and they are completely unconcerned about regular peoples' lives. Just keep the money flowing to the corporations and thereby the "representatives". We will live, or die, to regret this bait and switch of a bill.

[Cleita]

3. If there is no public option in the final bill he won't have anything to

either celebrate or campaign on because many of the people who voted for him for change won't show up to vote this time. I'm not making threats but stating facts. He should talk to Jimmy Carter about how a few missteps made him a one term President.

[Fumesucker]

4. Individual private mandates the law of the land..

Meanwhile California has given up on trying to regulate Anthem Blue Cross.

:puke:

[cali]

5. You do realize that under the proposed legislation

there is new regulation and that Anthem wouldn't be able to get away with what they're getting away with now, right?

[Fumesucker]

8. California has the regulations..

They don't have the wherewithal to enforce the ones they have on the books now.

[Change Happens]

15. +1

[MadHound]

56. You do realize that those "regulations" have loopholes the size of trucks,

And at this very minute the insurance industry has dozens of lawyers going through them in order to find out the best way to exploit them and screw us all over with increased premiums, fees, etc.

[cali]

64. could you provide comprehensive evidence please. thanks.

[bvar22]

69. You grossly misunderestimate...."dozens".

The Health Insurance Industry has an ARMY of Lawyers & Lobbyists currently working to ensure that Mandates with No Public Option passes.
They WON.
Their overwhelming success will not stop them here.
They won't declare VICTORY and go home.
They won't even take a break.

They WILL immediately change targets to those already toothless "regulations" written BY the Lobbyists for the HI, and continue the attacks.
The mandated new $BILLIONS$ of LOOT in their pockets will only make them STRONGER.
They WILL NOT STOP.
This is WHAT they DO.
They ARE TERMINATORS.
The precious "regulations" inserted in this shit sandwich to make it seem more palatable are already well seeded with loopholes, trap doors, and "ambiguous wordings".
They won't stand a chance against the Health Insurance Industry's Blitzkrieg of Lawyers and Lobbyists.


The only way to have kept them at bay was to provide an "out" for the American People.
Provide us with a WAY for us to tell them "NO"...a Publicly Owned/Government Administered "OPTION".

We NEEDED a "Churchill".
Instead, we got a "Chamberlain"...an appeaser.

[LibDemAlways]

9. Individual Private Mandates = Repuke Congress in Nov.

How the hell are people who can't afford private insurance now supposed to suddenly come up with the money to pay for it? The Repukes, who will be able to claim "I never voted for this travesty," will be the big beneficiaries of it.

[Fumesucker]

10. I fear you may be right..

I'm really hoping this isn't going to be the Dems blowing a smoking hole in their foot but I think there's a good chance it will be.

This is going to turn off a lot of people when they find they have to purchase an overpriced and nearly worthless product or be attacked by the IRS..

[Desertrose]

106. Anytime you sic the IRS on Americans - its a BAD move...

and Dems will get the "credit"for it (or is that blame??)

[RagAss]

84. BINGO ! Dems will be a footnote in History !

[warm regards]

77. Individual mandates will not hold up to the forthcoming legal challenges.

[Kber]

6. My husband owns his own small business and I work for another one

My bosses / company owners are conservative, economic types and all fairly religious (although they don't talk about it much at work). My husband's clients are all other small businesses, run almost entirely by conservative republicans. When he networks with other small business owners, republicans out number democrats by 4 to 1.

During the last election, we both got all kinds of grief for our Obama bumper stickers and these folks regularly refer to HCR as "Obamacare".

However, they are also hard headed business men and women and as they look at the details of how the bill will effect them, in the end business trumps ideology and now they are hoping this bill passes. Why? This bill is a godsend for small businesses that try to provide Health Care for their employees. The exchanges really level the playing field and they are all actually pretty optimistic that this will allow them to buy better insurance for their employees at more competitive rates.

The biggest complaint I am hearing is that the exchanges don't kick in soon enough. I take great pleasure in pointing out that this was one of the concessions that the Dems made to the Repubs.

And they take great pleasure in pointing out that, in this case, the Dems would have been better off telling the Repubs to go to hell.

Oh well.

[Cleita]

13. So it's a boon for the Republican small businessmen, which is

why I favor real single payer. Health care that is tied to jobs enslaves people and it doesn't offer much security if that person gets laid off, must change jobs or gets too sick to work. Yet, if we paid for it with p/r taxes those same employers would object to an additional tax even though that tax would probably be less than what they will have to pay for insurance. The illogic beats me sometimes.

[Change Happens]

21. I am a small business person and I am a Democrat, this is a very good bill for my family

and for my business:

1) My family will have a much stronger insurance policy with no threat of ever being dumped when we get sick. My child can stay on the policy until age 25-26. My family will never go bankrupt because of an illlness...etc.

2) I will be able to offer health insurance to potential new hires, attracting much better quality people for my business and I will be able to grow aggressively because I will not be losing out to larger companies who offer benefits...etc.

This is an outstanding bill as is, not as much as I wanted, but enough to change the landscape for good.

This is a real progressive bill, the most liberal legislation we have had in many many decades!!!

[Spazito]

38. +1! n/t

[Cleita]

47. I'm sure it will be an improvement over what we have, but it's not addressing the real problem,

access to health care should not be tied to employment. It will fall apart in a few years and people and businesses will be looking for a different way. Too bad that no one can look at those who have done this and how successful it has been and use the successful model first.

[dixiegrrrrl]

58. As I understand it, the benefits for you will not kick in

until..2013?
But the payment FROM you will begin immediately.

You are ok with that?

[Cosmocat]

29. This was one of MANY undersold points ...

I think the last 15 years, as HC insurance has absolutely EXPLODED, while more and more people have lost coverage and fewer and fewer people are covered by their employers, that the flaw of having an employer based system in a free market would be GLARING to anyone with any lick of common sense ...

VERY hard for a small business to provide medical coverage - and thereby very hard for small businesses to attack quality employees ...

[Beetwasher]

+1! And You Won't Be Alone, Practically Everyone Will Know Someone Helped By This Bill

And when that starts happening....

[Inspired]

7. I confess to not having any idea what this means to me and my family.

Am I just not paying attention? I refuse to listen to talking points from either party. I don't think that is the answer but maybe it is.

I know I'm not alone.

[sendero]

11. At something like 2700 pages..

.. nobody and I mean NOBODY really understands this bill.

Reason enough to deep six it.

[Pirate Smile]

14. That's idiotic.

[Fumesucker]

18. You're right, 2700 pages of legal gobbledegoop are pellucidly clear as to their effects..

The legislation enabling Canada's national health plan is fourteen pages and it's in two languages, English and French, so in reality the bill is only seven pages.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/PDF/Statute/C/C-6.pdf

[Doremus]

52. Good grief. Fox talking points here on DU.

Repukes have an aversion to reading but it doesn't mean we should tailor our legal system around those with reading comprehension issues.

How many words there are in the bill is irrelevant. The quality of the provisions within the bill is of paramount importance, don't you think?

Sheesh.

[jpak]

53. Yup

:thumbsdown:

[Fumesucker]

54. Why does it take 2700 pages for the US when 7 were adequate for Canada?

2700/7 = 385

The longer and more complex a bill the more loopholes it is likely to have..

If you think the loopholes are put in to benefit the little guy I have some pre-owned bridge property that I can give you a great deal on..

I have no problem with reading comprehension, I do have a problem with legislation that was written by and for those it is meant to regulate..

[jpak]

57. links for loopholes! links for loopholes! We want to see them loopholes!!1 Post 'em!!11

:rofl:

[Fumesucker]

60. Here's one..

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Daily-Reports/2010/January/08/Reform-loopholes.aspx

"A critical loophole in the current version of the Senate health-care bill would allow insurers to charge more for those who don't participate in wellness programs, essentially negating the measure's key goal of eliminating higher costs for those with pre-existing conditions, a group of health experts said Thursday," MarketWatch reports. "In a conference with reporters, representatives from a group known as Health Care for America Now, along with the American Heart Association and other health-care experts, said the law calls for the creation of pilot programs that would allow insurers to penalize those with certain conditions via higher premiums or deductibles." MarketWatch reports that insurers can already charge policyholders 20 percent more for not participating in wellness programs. The Senate bill would increase the difference to 50 percent (Britt, 1/7).

[Doremus]

65. Kaiser Health News has no horse in this race, nahhhh.

Seems you have a penchant for RW propaganda.

[Fumesucker]

67. I don't even own a TV and almost all my news comes from DU..

If that means I have a penchant for RW propaganda then I'm getting it here..

My arguments against the current health care bill are from the left, not the right, I despise being forced to buy an overpriced and faulty product from a private corporation. My experiences with private insurance have been miserable and I don't think this legislation is going to make it worse, not better.

Single payer like the seven page Canadian bill.. Great, I'd support it enthusiastically.

Strong public option.. I could live with that..

Mandated private insurance.. Fuck it, I'll vote against anyone who advocates it.

[Doremus]

68. Don't like the bill, fine.

But let's keep some semblance of self-respect and leave the lame puke talking points to the feeble-minded who must be told what to think.

The quantity of words contained in a bill has absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on its quality, period. And when attempting to convince liberals of the validity of your viewpoint, quoting RW sources is generally not very effective.

[Fumesucker]

78. You and I must disagree on that then because I believe that a bill 385 times longer

Longer than the Canadian one has but one purpose and that is to put in clauses and loopholes that are in favor of the powerful and well connected..

The big print giveth, the fine print taketh away..

After a long career dealing with contracts I've found that the more complex the contract the more likely I am to get screwed on the deal by some entity more powerful than myself.

[Doremus]

81. Yes, we'll have to disagree.

Because life isn't a Dick & Jane reader and effective laws require more than Dr. Seuss prose.

If you are worried about loopholes hiding in lengthy verbiage, you are willfully ignoring the gaping crevices created by overgeneralized and sweeping language necessitated by brevity at all costs.

But have at it. Just don't be surprised when those of us who can use our brains call you out on your unabashed recitation of bogus Fux talking points.

[Fumesucker]

85. So you think the Canadian law is ineffective?

Try getting Canadians to swap their system for the abortion we might be getting..

I suspect you'll get damn few takers..

[Doremus]

90. You're the only one talking about Canadian law.

This isn't Canada. Alan Grayson's bill is only 4 pages. Rather than senselessly railing against paragraph length, perhaps a better use of your time would be calling your congress critters to support it.

[Fumesucker]

96. You said that short laws were ineffective..

I countered that by pointing out that the Canadian law is very short and apparently anything but ineffective..

[cabluedem]

93. Some of those wellness programs are a waste of time and money.

You have to take time off of work to attend these classes which makes more money for the companies.

[lunatica]

76. It's the pork

We've been hearing for months about what everyone wants for their own state in exchange for maybe just considering bipartisanship with no other strings attached. Other than the ones they've attached themselves that is.

[Kalun D]

74. What?

"How many words there are in the bill is irrelevant."

bullsh*t. The senate version is written by the health insurance lawyers. The more pages, the more loopholes.

""The quality of the provisions within the bill is of paramount importance, don't you think?""

at 2700 pages, how the hell do you or anybody else know the truth about the quality of the provisions?

Sheesh.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Change Happens]

39. Oh God...You heard this from Bonner?

[AllentownJake]

16. and I'll no longer be a registered democrat if the Senate bill in current form passes

Have the voter registration form with the independent box checked and ready to be sent.

[Pirate Smile]

19. Good for you.

[jpak]

20. Hooray - see ya!

:rofl:

[tridim]

22. That'll show em!

Damn bastard Democrats and their desire that we pay less for better health care through regulation of an industry that has never been regulated in all of American history.

Honestly I can't wait until you deregister, it's going to be extremely fun ripping you to shreds every day on our Democratic forum.

[AllentownJake]

23. I may not be here election time

I respect Skinner's rules for his site.

[jpak]

27. Hooray!

:hi:

[tridim]

28. Great! Just check the box and let us know when you do m'kay.

[AllentownJake]

35. I'm not flaming out

I'll leave nice and quietly this time. I'm not objecting to a tone here or appealing for people to be more logical in their debates, lack of principles on party leadership, and if I no longer support party leadership, I will respect Skinner's rules.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

103. I'll pick up his slack.

[Change Happens]

24. +1

[no limit]

30. Another person that will not be negatively affected by this bill telling us how wonderful it is

[tridim]

33. Everyone will be positively affected by this bill.

Even Republicans and Allentownjake.

[AllentownJake]

34. Now in of itself that has to be a bullshit statement

Nothing in life effects everyone positively.

[tridim]

36. Then you simply don't understand the scope of bill.

Feel free to continue paying your exploding premiums for less care. Not my problem.

[AllentownJake]

37. I'll be doing that with or without this bill

I understand the scope of the bill, the time we live in, and the lack of government response to enforcing existing regulations in other business sectors.

Frankly, I don't trust the President to enforce existing laws and regulations after watching the past year in the financial sector.

[cabluedem]

91. I agree. When corporations break the regs they need to prosecute the officers.

[dixiegrrrrl]

61. I WANT to understand the scope of the bill.

Please give me a link to it so I can read it.
I really want to find it and read it before I comment on it, as I assume others here have also read it.


So, link to final bill, anyone???????

[Vinca]

43. I think some of us who are older and have pre-existing conditions

will be negatively affected. Sure, we will now be allowed to purchase insurance, but at 3 times the rate of an average premium. After checking the numbers, I think my premium would be about $200 greater than the one I can't afford now and we don't qualify for a subsidy. The choice we've got, apparently, is sell everything off, impoverish ourselves and apply for the expanded Medicaid. The bill definitely will help some people, but many will be getting the shaft because there is no public option and little regulation of the insurance companies.

[Change Happens]

46. How close are you to 65?

You will be Medicare eligible at 65, this whole exchange thing in this bill won't be ready until 2014 - So between now and then, whichever comes sooner for you: you are in the shape you are in TODAY! So maybe there is nothing to worry about?

[Vinca]

48. 4 years for me, 2 for my husband.

We're seriously thinking of moving to Canada again (husband is a Canadian-American). It was the plan if McCain got elected - we would already be there - but we're considering it again. I'm so sick of worrying every hour of every day about whether we'll make it to Medicare or not.

[Change Happens]

50. The bill calls for the exchanges to be setup by 2014, so no effect on you

for the next 4 years, right? Your hubby has ONLY two more years to go.

[Vinca]

51. It was my understanding that a high risk pool would be made available

within a rather short period of time, however would be unsubsidized so most likely out of reach for many of us.

[Change Happens]

79. Please keep in mind the community health centers: I found one within 3 miles of my house!!!

I called them, they said just come in, no questions asked, no insurance, no payments, nothing, they said to just come in if you are sick...You pay based on your income (or nothing at all). Senator Sanders and the House Bill added funding for these, up to 10,000 clinics...Another reason to support this bill.

I remain optimistic.

[Vinca]

83. If only they could do hip replacements.

:( That's the problem I've got. I remember during the last election, counting down the number of months of pain I would have to continue to live through, assuming Obama was elected. My doctor, who reduces her fees for me, feels almost as bad as I do. I had to cheer her up after she looked at the hip x-ray. I'll continue to gobble (Aleve) and hobble and hope to stay upright until I can get some kind of coverage somewhere. I'm not alone. I was searching the Internet for solutions such as being a guinea pig for doctors learning to do hip replacements and discovered there are all kinds of people - mostly older women - in the exact same predicament. This wouldn't happen in other countries.

[Change Happens]

89. A person we know, much younger than you are, is un-insurable and needed hip replacement. She got it...

done in India, she flew with a friend (she is a nurse herself), she said all paid expenses, including few weeks of rehab...etc. Was 1/10th her cost here. She spoke very highly of the doctors, the nurses, the level of care...etc.

She said she had a very positive experience overall, including the fact that she got a hip made with some new technology we don't have here yet, according to her, it will be introduced in the US shortly.

[Vinca]

92. I've actually considered that, but it kind of freaks me out to think

of being so far from home having major surgery. I'll stick it out awhile longer and see what happens. I have heard good things about India, though. There is a new procedure being done that is far less invasive and has the patient up and around in about 3 days (as opposed to 6 weeks). I'm hoping I'll be able to have that done at some point.

[Change Happens]

94. Speak to someone who has done this in India...Maybe an actual person's input is encouraging to you?

Based on what this person told me, if I ever needed this, I will be the plane...I have been to India for business and found the country and the people to be very hospitable.

[Change Happens]

95. FUNNY, JUST NOTICED THIS THREAD....relevant:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7916239

[nightrain]

63. particularly the private disease management corporations!!!

[no limit]

73. Why is it so easy for you to brush off people that will be hurt by this bill?Do you simply not care?

[tridim]

75. Millions of people are hurting NOW.

ATJ will not be hurt by this bill. Nobody will.

[cali]

82. as more will be helped by this legislation than hurt, I can only assume

you don't care about them at all. Why are you so cruel and callous???? Do you simply not care about ANYONE?

[no limit]

86. Let's take away welfare from 40% of the recipients and give the savings to the remaining 60%

using your logic that's a great idea since it will help more people than it will hurt. When someone doesn't have money to spare at the end of the month they can't make $200 a month appear out of thin air, they will now be required to.

[Maru Kitteh]

99. reducto ad absurdium

So instead, let's use your logic: Why is it so easy for you to brush off people who's lives may be changed and even saved by this bill? Do you simply not care?

[no limit]

113. Sorry that I don't buy in to the logic that its okay to hurt millions of people to help others

It makes no sense. And you can sit there on your high horse saying how wonderful this bill is and how we should all get onboard but the fact is you have absolutely no right to tell people that live pay check to pay check what they now can and can't afford.

[Botany]

25. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. H. Dean

Many problems w/ this bill but it will cover 30 million more Americans and get rid of the
"pre-existing condition" clause.

[AllentownJake]

32. Yes

My objections are on the record. I don't see this perfect as enemy of good.

No one has refuted me logically. So I've come to the conclusion there is some serious lack of critical thinking and common sense going on.

Simplified

Private Insurance Mandate, government that can't even enforce weak existing regulations and laws on banks, an institution everyone is pissed at, and the supreme court finance decision.

No public Option in that combination, no sale. Sorry.

[Fumesucker]

41. They have given up on enforcing regulations on health insurers in California..

Anthem Blue Cross simply takes every single case to court and stalls/delays, that pathetic little state of California doesn't have the clout to bring the big insurers to heel now.

[AllentownJake]

42. Yep

I'm not silly enough to believe after the past 9 years that business respects the rule of law or that government is interested in enforcing it regardless of the party in charge.

I cannot stay in the party if they do this. It is a change in direction and ideology I'm unwilling to accept.

[icee]

49. I'm doing the same, AllentownJake. I've been a Democrat for

44 years, but this is too much. I think the losses that will be suffered in November because of this action may end Democratic rule for many years. Maybe forever. As the corporations gain more and more control, political parties, voting and all that once sacred stuff will become somewhat redundant. I never thought it would happen.

[jpak]

55. Hooray!! - see ya too!

:hi:

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LibDemAlways]

100. Who here could have predicted that the Dems would

come up with a shitty bill with no public option that forces people to enrich the coffers of the insurance companies under penalty of law? That's something the repukes would never have done knowing how catastrophic the results would be at the ballot box. They must be doing the happy dance behind closed doors. They've got the Dems doing their dirty work for them, and they're the ones who will benefit. For them this is manna from heaven. For the Dems it's a ticket to obscurity. For the ordinary citizen....well, as usual, screwed.

[icee]

104. Obama has basically checkmated himself and the Democrats. There

is no win position. Rove at the top of his game could not have done a better job.

[tpsbmam]

87. Oh, I'll continue to be a registered Democrat......

so I can vote in primaries and try to vote out my shitty Blue Dog representative and any like him who follow him -- I want to be in that booth voting for progressives and making assholes like my blue dogger LOSE!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. Good.

Please update your DU status as well.

[pa28]

105. Sorry to hear that.

When involved, long term party members start to talk about leaving I think everyone should take time to consider what that means. I've heard numerous DU'ers talk about leaving over the years but when you get down people worthy of respect jumping ship maybe it's time to ask serious questions.

Questioning who the Democratic party represents and if it's really filling the historic role as a counterbalance to corporate power and concentration of wealth is a healthy thing.

[icee]

112. Right, PA. It is becoming progressively indistinguishable between that which

it ostensibly hates; namely, the Republicans. The main reason I have stayed in the latter years is because of DU and the greatness of many of the people here--far greater than our elected leaders. But now with even some of them are taking the path of least resistance with respect to Health-care Reform, it maybe time to move on. We can't budge on this. More people will die if Obamacare is signed into law than if it is not signed into law. But the proximate cause of death won't be as obvious. Thanks for your post, PM. I'm sure we will go blithely, blindly forward for a few more years, but we as a party and we as a country are in a declining moral spiral that will have but one end.

[CrispyQ]

44. A bill with sex & age discrimination written into it.

How democratic. :eyes:

I will pay more, simply because of my age, even though I'm in much, much better health than my sister who is 11 years younger than me. Great.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

66. He is going to look pretty silly if they do not pull it off

[Odin2005]

70. And O will own a shity bill that will destroy the Democratic Party.

[icee]

71. Obama has placed himself in checkmate.

[mzmolly]

80. Abolultely fabulous!

:toast:

[Bluebear]

98. 'President Barack Obama will look to campaign on the new healthcare law in midterm elections'

Oh, yay. As long as people can campaign.

[aaronbav]

101. O may campaign on it, but the rethughs will beat him bloody

on the mandate/IRS enforcement part. I am sick and disgusted with Obama's back room deals with the cartels and drug pushers. I am disgusted with OBAMA and the cowardly, craven congress whores. FUCK THEM ALL

[LibDemAlways]

108. No one in his right mind would tout this turkey at a

campaign appearance. When the American people get wind of this scheme there will be hell to pay. Obama's performance will receive a thumbs up only from execs in the insurance/big pharma cartel. Otherwise his ratings, as well as the ratings of the Dems in Congress, will be in the toilet - and deservedly so.

Forcing people to pony up to a bunch of crooks under the scrutiny of the IRS is completely outrageous and more than likely unconstitutional. Let the lawsuits begin.

[Bluebear]

110. You said it.

[Maru Kitteh]

102. God I hope so. I need HCR.

[DFLforever]

107. I love this.

Bravado and all.

[Hekate]

109. Our damn Dems better deliver, and if they don't I hope the Wrath of Rahm falls on them...

... hard, kicking Dem Donkey Butt and taking names.

Hekate

:kick:

[NJmaverick]

111. K & R