Khamenei tells Iranians to shun pagan fire festival

[FarCenter]

AFP - Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Sunday that Iranians should shun next week's Persian fire festival as it is un-Islamic and creates "a lot of harm."

Charshanbe Soori, an ancient Pagan festival, is held on the eve of the last Wednesday of the Persian calendar year. This year the ritual falls on the night of March 16.

Khamenei, Iran's all-powerful cleric, said on his website that Charshanbe Soori has "no basis in sharia (Islamic religious law) and creates a lot of harm and corruption (which is why) it is appropriate to avoid it."

The festival is a prelude to Nowrouz, the Persian New Year which starts on March 21 and marks the arrival of spring.

In the past few years, local municipalities have helped Iranians organise the festival but it is unclear whether they will do so this year in the wake of Khamenei's remarks.

Iranians celebrate the fire festival by lighting bonfires in public places on the night before the last Wednesday and leaping over the flames shouting "Sorkhiye to az man, Zardiye man az to (Give me your redness and I will give you my paleness)."

Leaping over the flames symbolises the wish for happiness in the new year and an end to the sufferings of the past year.

<SNIP>http://www.france24.com/en/20100314-khamenei-tells-iranians-shun-pagan-fire-festival

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Spoilsport.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. Zoroastrian, not pagan

Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic religion that predates christianity. Paganism implies polytheism. Does anybody fact check anything anymore?

[etherealtruth]

2. Was just going to post this

[scarletwoman]

3. Actually, the root of the word "pagan" basically means "country", as in rural.

Pagan comes from a Latin word paganus, meaning villager, rustic, someone not from the city, and itself comes from pagus which refers to a rural district.

As a new religion comes on the scene, it spreads first in urban areas. The people in rural areas tend to preserve their older traditions longer, especially those that mark the turning of the seasons and fertility.

Paganism has no specific connection to polytheism, it has merely to do with the fact that those who lived close to earth and depended upon the success of their crops or herding or hunting for their survival, looked to their ancient rituals for maintaining a sense of connection to and harmony with Nature. Conversion of country people to authoritarian monotheistic dogma always took longer than it did with city people.

Heathen is the basically the same kind of word -- it literally means "of the heath", the wild places outside of urban settlements.

Basically, both words have come to mean any religious tradition outside of an officially accepted mainstream religion. In this case, the officially accepted religion being Islam, any pratices left over from the older Zoroasterian traditions are deemed "pagan".

sw

[Warren Stupidity]

4. well there is that too, but the common meaning now

is polytheistic.

"Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning "country dweller", "rustic")<1> is a blanket term used to refer to various polytheistic, non Abrahamic religious traditions. Its exact definition may vary:<2> It is primarily used in a historical context, referring to Greco-Roman polytheism as well as the polytheistic traditions of Europe before Christianization. In a wider sense, extended to contemporary religions, it includes most of the Eastern religions, and the indigenous traditions of the Americas, Central Asia and Africa, as well as non-Abrahamic folk religion in general. More narrow definitions will not include any of the world religions and restrict the term to local or rural currents not organized as civil religions. Characteristic of pagan traditions is the absence of proselytism and the presence of a living mythology which explains religious practice."

wiki

[scarletwoman]

5. Polytheism may or may not be a feature of any of these.

For example, the religious traditions of my Ojibwe neighbors is not polytheistic - there is no pantheon of deities -- but to a Christian their practices are "pagan".

Just as to a Muslim, the old religion of Zoroaster is a "pagan" religion.

There is nothing in the term "pagan" that implies any particular set of beliefs like polytheism, it's a word used to distinguish between an officially accepted religion and those who don't subscribe to that religion.

sw

[FarCenter]

6. So obviously paganism must be stamped out by the elite urban priesthood

Typically in league with the urban elite nobility.

[scarletwoman]

7. Yep, that's pretty much how it works. The power of the Church & State in league with each other

to enforce control of the population.

sw

[aquart]

9. Yeah, but they were just preserving a festival that predated them, too.

These are the dates for Purim in the Jewish calendar:

2011: March 20

2012: March 8

2013: February 24

2014: March 16

2015: March 5

Pur is the indoeuropean word for fire (but I think it meant sacred fire because we use it in pure, purification) with a Hebrew plural: fires.

The Hebrews rewrote the fire festival right down to the meaning of the word giving it the Hebrew for booths and telling people to set up booths (this was right after the return from the Babylon captivity and people were going "booths? what booths? Ever hear of these booths before?" but it's most likely the same festival the Zoroastrians were coping with.

[Wizard777]

15. No it's Zoroastrian. We have fire festivals and fire temples.

[Wizard777]

13. Judaism too. It's actually the first monotheistic religion.

Some sources place Zoroaster contemporary to Cyrus the Great. But Zoroaster Served Kaye (King) Vishtasp. In the time of Cyrus the Great (about 700 BC) the kingdom of Kaye Vishtasp was ancient and considered legendary. Zoroaster is a hard guy to track down in history. There are about six different Spitima Zarathustra's. But I would place Zoroaster an Kaye Vishtasp at about 7,000 BC. Trying to research Zoroaster today is probably what it will be like trying to research Jesus is the year 11,000 AD. Many people will probably say who?

[JVS]

8. Leader of Islamic Republic of Iran doesn't support non-islamic holiday?

I couldn't be more shocked if J.P. Morgan were to pooh pooh a May 1st rally.

[nickinSTL]

10. that's about as sensible as

the pope telling people to stop using Christmas trees because they have pagan roots.

The Zoroastrian fire festival, while not Islamic, is ubiquitous in Iran, as I understand it, and is not generally tied in people's minds to any Zoroastrian beliefs (aside, I imagine, from the Zoroastrian minority).

[Manifestor_of_Light]

11. Freddie Mercury was a Zoroastrian!

The Shah promoted Zoroastrianism as a point of ethnic pride.

[nickinSTL]

12. yes...

and IMO, that was a good idea.

If you want to foster nationalism, seems to me a home-grown religion would be a better choice than one imposed on your population by force.

(of course, that's just my feeling)

I also have a good amount of respect for the teachings of Zarathustra - some of the ways those teachings have been altered by subsequent generations of Zoroastrian priesthood, I'm not so impressed with.

[Wizard777]

14. Farrokh was Indian Zoroastrian. Not Iranian Zoroastrian.

There are some differences between the two sects. The Zoroastrians in Bombay practice the religion as being ethnocentric. They accept no outsiders or converts. But goes against the Navjote(nativity or initiation ceremony.) You cannot be born into the religion. A Magus may not perform the ritual for anyone who does not enter into the religion voluntarily and without knowledge of what will be expected of them.

What I find interesting is the presence of Magi at the Nativity (Navjote?) of Jesus. If the legends I've heard are true. That he was born possessed of intellect and able to speak. If he convinced the Magi that that he understood what was expected of him and that he was entering the religion voluntarily. They could have performed the Navjote for him even though he was an infant. But that would have made him a Zoroastrian. The Gnostic Gospel of Judas depicts Christ in a Zoroastrian flavor so to speak.

[nickinSTL]

17. I did know that Freddy Mercury was an Indian Zoroastrian

and that the Indian Zoroastrians are very much into the ethnocentricity, which, from my reading, contradicts the teachings of Zarathustra.

So do the Iranian Zoroastrians require the voluntary entry into the religion? I personally much prefer that viewpoint.

I've read a fair amount about Zoroastrianism, but there is a lot of rather contradictory information online, from what I've seen, and of course, many very divergent viewpoints, and I suspect that many of them don't reflect any established form of the religion, but individual's views. For someone without a background in the religion, it can be a bit overwhelming to try to figure out.

[Wizard777]

18. I'm sorry. You went from Freddy to the Shah. I thought you thought he was of the Iranian Parsis.

Yes the Iranian and American Parsis require voluntary admission with knowledge.

I have to say you are doing very well in your studies. You've grasped the one thing that people have a very hard time grasping. That it a very individualized religion. The Navjote begins your relationship with Ahura Mazda. We learn from Him and His creation. Zoroaster is not like Jesus. He's not an intercessor. We deal directly with God. The Zend Avesta isn't really a "Bible" per say. Zend means commentary and Avestan is the language it was it was written in. It's Zoroaster's prayers to Ahura Mazda and tells of his relationship with Ahura Mazda. We use that pattern our own relationship with God after. So when you have many individuals in a a personal relationship with God instead of God having an exclusive relationship with an intercessor. Then yes you get many diverse views.

Zoroastrianism is but one sect of the greater religion of Mazdaism. There is also Manicheism and Zurvanism. The Manichean's were persecuted for their beliefs and Zurvanism is considered to be blasphemy. But in the Navjote one of the prayers says the Ahura Mazda and Ahriman were born of the same womb. The womb they were born of is Zurvan's. The Zurvanites believe Ahura Mazda and Ahriman to be twins. Polar twins but twins none the less. So good and evil are twin forces. But Good is the superior force. The war in Heaven and the battle between good an evil are classic Mazdaism. Zoroaster explained this battle and the workings of the universe to Kaye Vishtasp with a game he called Asha (Righteousness or Wisdom and truth as one.) To day this game is more commonly called chess. So Zoroaster also has the distinction of being the inventor of the game of chess. That's why it has white and black game pieces. The white pieces is Ahura Mazda and the Amesha Spenta (Angles)v. The black pieces Ahriman and the Daeva (Demons.) The game is a dualist battle (Dual forces) between Light and Darkness - Good and Evil. In his day Zoroaster was known as the wisest man in all the world.

One last thing. Lately I've seen shows where they look at religions for the possibility of contact with Space Aliens. Like Chariot of the Gods stuff. Zoroastrianism would blow their minds. The Faravahar is supposed to be Ahura Mazda emerging from Asha (Wisdom and Truth as one.) But it also looks like a man emerging from a space ship. The greeks very bad at translating Avestan and Pahlavi. They gave us Xerxes for Shahanashah (King of Kings.) But they got one right and it was really right. Zarathustra and Zoroaster comes from Zara Ustra. It means Camel Rider. Zoro is the greek equivalent of Zara meaning rider. But instead of the greek word for camel they used Aster meaning Star. So Zoroaster mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sj-sDmvRpk">Starrider.

One of the oral traditions tells of Comet that struck a mountain in Iran. Kaye Vishtasp went to survey the damage to Kingdom. When he arrived at the mountain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdO_CmfFKYE">The entire mountain was on fire.Out the flames, dressed in fine linen, came Zoroaster. So in some sects it is believed that Zoroaster came to this world riding upon a comet. Also it is never said that Zoroaster is or was Medean. He is described. It always says he appeared to be Medean. You'll not find this written anywhere. To this very day, 9,000 years later, it still survives strictly as an oral tradition. It's also called the secret origins of Zoroaster. The Magi hold many Secrets. But when asked Questions. We give answers.

Btw, Walt Disney was also fascinated with Zoroaster. Watch Bedknobs and Broomsticks. In the King of the Jungle's (A lion:See Zurvan) book upon the page is "The Charm of Zoroaster." Magic means the Art of the Magi. That encompasses many many sciences. Because we follow a Wise Lord. Look at all the science behind the "Magic" of his Kingdom. ;-)

[nickinSTL]

20. thanks for that summary

although, I wasn't actually the one who mentioned both Freddy Mercury and the Shah...

However, it's good to know that the Iranian Zoroastrians aren't exclusive the way the Indian Zoroastrians are.

I do appreciate your information - I haven't really run across Zoroastrians to discuss the religion with before :)

[Wizard777]

21. Sorry again. I'm not doing very well here. lol

Right now we are watching the fulfillment of Zoroaster's Prophecy. Zoroastrianism is nearing extinction. We also await the comet that strike the earth when Ahura Mazda reorders the universe. World wide our numbers are less than 1 million and closer to 100,000. So yes we are not easy to find. But I'm much more than a follower. I am a king of one of the 16 Paradises Ahura Mazda created. I am the King of the Paradise Euphoria, Judge of the Celestial Court, the final prophet Saoshyant, and Magus Amathion. Amathion means the sun is risen. I have come to begin the new era, Aquarius, of Mazdaism. The end of Zoroastrianism begins Amathionism.

I know it sounds Crazy. Especially to me. But it's a destiny that I have found to be inescapable. I've tried. I've really tried. But the farther I run from it the closer I come to fulling the destiny. But such is fate.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

23. Quite interesting!!! Thanks!!!

[Wizard777]

16. Khamenei Brews corruption with Ahriman and the Druj. He serves the Daeva's, himself and no other.

[asdjrocky]

19. What!?!

No Burning Man?

[Wizard777]

22. LMAO! No They don't need Burning Man. They already have way too many irons in the fire.