There seems to be very weak support for labor unions on Democrati Underground

[divideandconquer]

There seems to be a disconnect between progressive ideals and actual actions. I think America lost it's soul when the middle class became more about being a consumer and less about being a worker or citizen. Isn't this also the heart of our problems with healthcare, education and the trade deficit?

[Goldstein1984]

1. divideandconquer

I think your username pretty much says it all.

Progressives are the "lunatic fringe."

Didn't you get the party memo?

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catshrink]

6. +1

[malaise]

13. Isn't that the truth

+1

[laughingliberal]

37. +1 nt

[Mari333]

3. and I grew up in the 50s when Unions were the norm

strong unions and hardworking people who stood up to management and corporations

they werent far left THEY WERE THE NORM

the repubs and dems , too, have taken this country into the toilet.

[philly_bob]

29. Yeah, I remember that. Good public education, parks, recreational facilities,

health care. Folks had good lifetime jobs with good pay.

I remember unions, too.

[patrice]

4. Don't let the word "Democratic" in Democratic Underground fool you. There are many

ambiguous players here, some of whom fear Unions. There are many people here who have axes to grind that are more important to them than real Progressivism.

And, if you think Unions have it bad here, try saying something positive about Christianity or, worse yet, the Catholic Church.

[lunatica]

60. I can't think of a positive thing to say about Christianity or the Catholic Church

that wouldn't be squashed by all the negative things theyve caused to humanity. And I think that's part of what makes me a Progressive. They can believe whatever they want but they should keep their hateful god out of wars and government and if possible my life. That goes for all other religions.

[JackRiddler]

83. I can think of several positive things to say about the Catholic Church

1) Apparently good theater, based on average attendance by millennium.

2) Cultured and refined in comparison to the Protestant fundamentalist churches. Speak languages and read books and stuff.

3) Inspired a long and rich tradition of arts, music and literature - both in tune with the doctrine and, of course, in contradiction to it. Great food and wine, too.

4) If you wrote a complete history of the church, besides Constantine the single most important historic figure in your tale would have to be Galileo. He's not a bad guy at all, is he now?

5) Lots of churches are fighting the good fight for the poor. May not be true of the organization as a whole.

6) Have pretty much dropped the eternal hellfire stuff, as no one believes that anymore, and support the study of evolution, long as it doesn't involve stem cells.

7) Recently apologized to Galileo.

Okay, I ran out and it's squashed by other factors, as you say. It's about whether you can work with them on the ground. If they're Berrigans, they're good. If they're Father Molesters, they're bad.

[kenfrequed]

62. Way to hijack!

Seriously this is about labor. Not religion. Religious organizations often formed some of the stiffest, most reactionary opposition to labor unions, or at least helped rationalize the opinion of the bosses in the eyes of the public.

I would read "The Family" by Jeff Sharlet and it seems that organization has its roots in a pro church, pro business, anti union group.

[aquart]

7. I know an ardent Boston Democrat Obama supporter

who believes the day of unions is over and we don't need them anymore. She's in her thirties, has never belonged to a union, has no idea how her wages and hours and benefits were decided because of unions.

[FreakinDJ]

14. Until she needs health insurance - she'll think Unions are great then

[harkadog]

28. You think because she is not in a union she doesn't have insurance?

Plenty of non union jobs have health insurance. Besides with the new health care bill everyone will have insurance. Right? No one will need unions for that anymore.

[aquart]

32. Oh, dear lord.

I always appreciate truly blistering ignorance.

[laughingliberal]

38. +1 nt

[Hubert Flottz]

49. LOL

I appreciated the chuckle!

[harkadog]

77. And you are unable to address the points of the post.

Just some fifth grade name calling.

[frylock]

90. read sinclair's "the jungle"

then you'll understand what the poster was talking about.

[harkadog]

98. I have an original edition in my library.

There is nothing in it about the topics on this thread.

[frylock]

88. self delete..

replied to wrong post.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Just here to add my sig pic

[sendero]

8. Unions are great..

... when everyone is in one. Since almost no one is, I'm not that excited about them.

[HeresyLives]

9. Is there supposed to be?

:shrug:

[Omaha Steve]

94. Well over $500 million from unions in the last election cycle

Then there are things like hours of time donated. Add in the direct donations union members like me gave directly to candidates. The list goes on.

[Odin2005]

10. Too many Latte Liberals that agree with the Corporatist attack on unions.

[Donnachaidh]

22. +100000 n/t

[anonymous171]

33. Fortunately, the H-1B visas have taken them all down a notch

Turns out their incredibly competent and cutting edge skill sets weren't all that important after all.

[Codeine]

53. They seemed so dismissive of the concerns of my class

when our jobs were cut and our wages shrank to nothing, so I almost welcome the opportunity to watch all the self-important college-educated douchebags who look down their nose at actual working folks feel some economic pain.

Almost. In reality, I realize that their loss will just make it even harder for the working class. They've even manage to ruin schadenfreude. Bastards.

[Odin2005]

101. HEY! some of us college-educated douchbags aren't yuppie morans!

:P

[DFLforever]

11. I'm on board with your consumer vs producer distinction.

On-line we're consumers par-excellence of politics.

Imo, that's the chief reason were hyper-critical of the Administration. It's not exactly what we ordered at the last election. Send it back!


Compare that to the way labor works and negotiate with Congress and the Administration to achieve its goals.

[marybourg]

12. Yes. Many of today's "knowledge workers" believe they have

sufficient individual bargaining strength due to their occult knowledge, that unions are unnecessary in their lines of work.

[OutNow]

25. Yes, until the lose their pension and health insurance

Sure, all the bright young people who are on the leading edge of technology with unlimited potential and excellent salaries think that their individual bargaining power is all they need on their way to million dollar salaries and free beer on Friday.

Until - they realize that their mastery of technology can be replicated by the BRIC countries at 10% of the price

Until - they turn 40 and get laid off and have to train their BRIC replacement in order to get any severance package

Until - the company executives figure out they can switch the defined benefit pension for employees to a cash balance plan or just freeze everything and give themselves million dollar bonuses and stock options

Until - their long promised retirement health insurance is canceled because the company can do anything they want with health care because their is no law to protect employees

I could go on, but you get the picture. That's why I support The Alliance@IBM CWA 1701

http://www.endicottalliance.org/

[NICO9000]

92. Absolutely spot on

I used to work for a very well-known web company and pretty much everything you mentioned has come to pass. Once they figured out they could pay Indian workers $8.00 an hour instead of the $15 or $20 we got here it was all over.

My dad was a union member his whole working life and as a result, my family really did live the American dream when my sister and I were growing up in the '60s and '70s. One salary bought a house, two cars, and regular feeding intervals. He probably made about $18-20,000 a year as a grocery store manager, but that was enough back in those days. Not bad for a guy who only had an 8th grade education.

"They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it." - George Carlin R.I.P.

[depakid]

15. On DU? I don't think so

Although it is true that not everyone here share the degree of enmity toward Toyota that some several do.

[flyingfysh]

16. union support is solid at my house

My wife is a union representative at her school (she's a teacher).

[jsmithsen]

17. We need more organized political groups

With clear political definitions.

In Europe the "latte liberals" are organized separately into Liberal Democrats, Free Democrats etc.

It has hard to imagine any break from the two party system in the US, though both parties are straining internally. Each wants the other to break first.

What should happen in the meanwhile is the development of clear organized political factions/groupings within the two parties.

Within the RP I see the following factions:

- Establishment Republicans
- Libertarians
- Southern (I would say Evangelicals, but I actually think they are more about Southern identity)

Within the DP I see the following factions:

- DLC (perhaps they would end up being similar to Lib Dems or Free Dems)
- Labor
- Greens

The "latte liberals" are without clear representation as they hate religion and are contemptuous of unions. Due to this they take up an inordinate amount of space at websites. Once things sorted out they would find their place within the Establishment RP, the Libertarians, or the DLC.

The factions would fight it out openly during primary season.

[mediaman007]

18. I've got your back!

President, Local 1718 AFL-CIO

[FarCenter]

19. Democrats are a coalition of many groups

Minority groups: Blacks, Hispanics, Jews, some Asians, some white ethnics...

Special interest groups: Environmentalists, pacifists, pro-Israel, womens rights, pro-abortion, consumer protection, retirement benefits protection, welfare rights and antipoverty program advocates, housing advocates, gun control advocates, ...

Environmentalists: anti-nuclear power, pro-alternative energy, endangered species advocates,...

Animal issues: spay the feral cats, save the whales, dolphins, seals, ...

Unions? Economic justice? Not so much.

[boston bean]

20. There seems to be very little support for a populist message,

yet, many here sure lurv and support their corpserations. not so much their fellow man. the apathy is sickening.

[yorgatron]

21. K&R

not union myself (not employed right now) but I have many friends and family members who are union.

[notesdev]

23. I'm pro-union

but what the public unions in this country are doing in the face of budgetary crises at every level of government is not only not right, but it is suicidal and self-defeating.

The reality right now is that public workers are a highly privileged class, with better salaries, far better benefits, and far better job security than anyone in the public sector. By insisting on making no sacrifice when everyone else is hurting, they are compounding enemies on a daily basis, normal people who ask - why do I suffer so that these guys don't have to?

The old union movement was based on private unions, and the interest on the other side of the table was a private, profit-seeking interest. When public unions negotiate, on the other side of the table is the public itself. This constitutes a profound difference in what the very nature of those unions are, and I find it to be at odds with the reasons why the union movement deserves my support in the first place.

The old union movement deserved our support because its gains benefited all of us. The public sector union movement seeks to only benefit itself, at the expense of everyone else. The general public can see this even if those too close to the matter cannot, and that is why union supporters are becoming harder and harder to find. A tipping point was reached this year where public unions constitute more than half of all unionized workers in the country, and thus their behavior is what others see when evaluating the merit of unions in general.

[yorgatron]

24. I'd rather we all rose to their level,instead of dragging them down.

we should all enjoy those benefits.
because once you ask them to surrender any part of what they have now,I can assure you it will be a long time,or more probably never,before they get it back.

[notesdev]

27. It's mathematically impossible

Defined benefit plans are financial time bombs (now blowing up in our faces).

But even on a more fundamental level, it is impossible for everyone to be indefinitely enjoying compensation growth that exceeds the overall level of economic growth, that defies laws of mathematics.

And things like retirement at age 50 and double dipping simply can't be reconciled as fair to the people who are paying for it, who don't get these things.

[pipoman]

43. The protection of our standard of living

and employee compensation was always carefully, individually designed trade restrictions with other nations...less restrictions with countries with standerd of livings similar to our own, more with those countries with lower standards of living. Democrats sold that out and made agreements with 3rd world nations which didn't include an adjustment or requirement to improve working conditions or wages. This was the end of unions which represented the masses.

[Caliman73]

35. agreed

There is no real difference between so called public and private unions. Public sector unions formed based on the original trade unions. The reason compensation has reached levels where some may think it too much is that the public sector was not able to compete with the private sector and there was a push in the 60's to get the best and brightest into public service. Unfortunately, the Feds, States, Counties, and Municipalities were granting heaven and earth as compensation. The Unions were merely doing what Unions do, try to get their constituents the best possible packages. There has been negotiation and benefits have been surrendered although as you said, there is only so far the Union can go before they lose the support of the members. Would anyone on this thread want to belong to and pay dues into a Union who negotiated away all of the benefits that attracted you to the job in the first place?

To say that some unions are okay and others are not is just as the OP's namesake suggests, divide and conquer.

[laughingliberal]

39. I'm not sure what public workers you refer to but salaries are not better, as a rule, to comparable

private sector jobs. Benefits may be better but many people leave the public sector for higher salaries in private industry. Nurses in my state who have gone to work for the state take about a 33% cut in salary.

[Tailormyst]

46. When balancing things out, why choose to make the group better off, poorer

Instead why not try to make the poorer group richer?

I always thought THAT was the big difference between Dems and Repukes. Dems are for lifting people up; Repukes are for holding people down.

[provis99]

100. saying "I'm pro-union, but..." is like saying "I'm not racist, but..."

right before you go into a racist diatribe against blacks. In your case, you go into a diatribe against unions. So I take it with a giant grain of salt when you say you're pro-union.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. IAFF here, former APWU and Teamster.

[omega minimo]

30. America lost its soul when they swallowed Ollie North as "hero'

It's much deeper than socioeconomic. It's a disconnect with the fundamentals of our system.

[flyarm]

31. K&R ..retired APFA..I support all unions! eom

[onestepforward]

34. I support unions!

:patriot:

[laughingliberal]

36. Indeed. nt

[saracat]

40. Very true.I have difficulty recognizing those who claim to be Democrats anymore.

[jsmithsen]

41. Pro Union

Pro Union
Pro Environment
Pro Civil Rights
Pro Womens' Rights
Pro Peace

And when there are conflicts between these goals, try to work them out. Not exacerbate.

And I'm certain those attacking public sector unions have nothing to hide - such as living in a tiny suburb of 10,000 with its own police, fire, sanitation etc. Oh I forgot - big government is ok when it is the accumulation of hundreds of thousands of little governments.

[Echo In Light]

48. +1

[pipoman]

42. IMHO

The collective bargaining power of unions was sold out with 'trade agreements' which reined in companies from moving their labor force out of the country and beyond US labor laws. Prior to these trade agreements there were tariffs and restrictions in place to assure that US workers were not competing with vastly poorer workers and conditions. Trade agreements pushed through by both parties have taken away the only protection of our standard of living and the ability of US labor to negotiate. I would expect such shit from the thugs, it is sad that 'the labor party', dems, would allow this to happen....they sold out the unions, along with labor leaders for limos and steak dinners...very sad..

[mmonk]

44. The division here reflects the division in the party.

Sadly, the standard of living will continue to decline inside the US as its institutions change to the corporate way. Their propaganda apparatus is difficult to defeat because people do not see the connections. With no political party behind labor, that is the reality. When realizations hit the populace, it will be too late.

[GrantDem]

45. Solid Union supporter here.

Proud IBEW member.

[freddie mertz]

47. True. But opposition to labor is by definition anti-Democratic.

Which makes we wonder....you too?

[QC]

51. Lately, there is weak support for liberal causes in general here.

It's amazing--and very sad--how much this place has lurched to the right in the past two years or so.

[kctim]

52. The weak support

is not just here on DU, it is throughout the whole country. Most people do not wish to be a part of a union and they should have the right to decide for themselves. I support unions and all those who wish to be in one, but I want nothing to do with them. In fact, I have turned down three job ops from the local Ford plant here for that reason alone.

Those who have a problem with such individual choice are what is at the heart of the problems the party faces.

[NNN0LHI]

55. Whats a " job ops"

Are you trying to tell us that Ford approached you out of the blue to try and hire you three times and you declined?

If thats what you are saying you are kidding right?

Don

[kctim]

67. Job opportunity

I wish I was in such demand that Ford would want to track me down, lol, but its not quite like that.
One time was when I applied for a job right out of the USAF and was contacted, but turned it down. I live in a town with a large presence of people who work at the plant, am friends with many of them and have been asked to come down to work many many times. Only two were in a position to see that I did get on board so I don't count the others.

[MrCoffee]

54. My father was PATCO in 1981

I'm no fan of labor unions.

[NNN0LHI]

56. PATCO was the only major union to back Reagan for president

And then Reagan fired them all first chance he got. Perhaps your dislike of unions is misguided?

Don

[MrCoffee]

58. Yeah, because they did so well under Carter that they had to strike

Stupid argument. Of course they backed Reagan, because Carter screwed them over.

[NNN0LHI]

59. Hey you lay down with dogs you get fleas

You don't blame that on the dog.

Don

[MrCoffee]

63. So the endorsement means they deserved to be fired?

Whatever.

[NNN0LHI]

64. No I am saying that if you put Republicans in power don't be surprised when bad things happen

And don't try and blame those choices on others. Obviously these PATCO people who decided to back Reagan weren't the sharpest tools in the shed. Were they?

Don

[MrCoffee]

65. What was the alternative?

Working conditions worsened for them under the Carter administration. What would you have them do, endorse Carter and hope for a change that was demonstrably proven never to come?

Don't get me wrong, I loathe Reagan for what he did and wouldn't pass up the opportunity to spit on his grave, but organized labor collectively shot itself in the head in this country on August 5, 1981 when they all showed up for work with their tails tucked between their legs.

So much for solidarity, eh?

[NNN0LHI]

66. Working conditions worsened for ME under the Carter administration ...

... and every other administration I have lived through since I started working in 1973.

But it was always worse under Republicans. A lot worse.

I still have my past Unemployment Benefit check stubs to prove it.

Don

[Catshrink]

70. The teachers' unions supported Obama

and look what he's trying to do us now. We won't repeat that mistake.

[NNN0LHI]

71. I admit I have not been following this story

But the question would still be do you think the teachers will get a better shake from a Republican administration?

Don

[Catshrink]

73. No.

But I've been lied to and used. That won't happen again. I won't vote for the presidential race if he's renominated. I can't very well criticize other people for voting against their self-interests and then doing it myself. On education issues, Obama has been a failure.

[NNN0LHI]

74. If you know the Republicans will do worse how is voting for a Dem against your self-interests?

I must be missing something here?

Don

[Catshrink]

75. Voting for Obama is against my self-interest

He is intensifying the destruction of public schools that began under Bush. He makes Bush look friendly to education.

madfloridian's journal is awesome on the subject:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian

[Gaedel]

95. I worked for the federal government for quite a few years

Those working for the federal government (and the government unions) know that it is against federal law d=for any federal worker to strike. There have been proposals to strike over the years under both Democratic and Republican administrations. Every time, the law was invoked and the union backed down. Possibly the Air Traffic Controllers w\felt that they served such a vital purpose that the president would have to back down or negotiate under pressure. They were wrong and it destroyed their union and the careers of some pretty decent people.

[mdmc]

57. I support working people

SOLIDARITY!

[TexasObserver]

61. Labor unions. Gay rights. Consumer rights. Death penalty. War. Education.

It's shocking the amount of unprogressive attitudes that are commonly posted.

Hating on unions. Hating on gays. Hating on consumer rights. Loving the death penalty. Loving war. Hating on teachers.

I could name a half dozen posters I've never seen on the progressive side of ANY issue.

[blue_onyx]

68. Yes, that seems to be true

I've also noticed selective union support. People hate Walmart because of their labor practices but love Toyota despite the fact that they also avoid unions to lower wages/benefits.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iggo]

72. You seem to be full of it. (n/t)

[Cleita]

76. The Democratic wing of the Democratic robustly supports unions.

I don't think the DINO faction or DLC does though.

[BrklynLiberal]

78. and the same can sometimes be said of women's rights as well..sadly.

x(

[saracat]

79. Absolutely.

[NNN0LHI]

81. Unions were on the forefront of obtaining women's rights

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/women/history.cfm

[divideandconquer]

84. The UAW bailed MLK out of jail

<http://www.uawregion8.net/Activist-HOF/WReuther.htm>

[divideandconquer]

85. The UAW bailed MLK out of jail

<http://www.uawregion8.net/Activist-HOF/WReuther.htm>

[Riley18]

80. Too many people do not know enough about history to realize that if it were

not for unions there would never have been a middle class. My family were coal miners in upstate Pennsylvania so I grew up knowing how important unions were to building this country. It kills me that unions have been so weakened now that people do not have to belong to the union in order to reap the benefits. It is sad the read comments which say stuff like we don't need unions anymore or that they are corrupt. Funny how politicians, banks, and corporations can do whatever they want, but it is the middle class union that is evil. They pit us against each other for their own profit and amusement.

[NNN0LHI]

82. Goofballs like Dylan Ratigan compare unions to Bank of America and DUers cheer

People are easily brainwashed even by idiots like Ratigan. Sad.

Don

[SlingBlade]

86. The Corporate Whores are out in force for the big push

Most of 'em will go back to their little hidy holes once this piece of shit HCR bill passes.
Just remember this as a Union person.

They'll get the support they deserve come November

A New Beginning or the Beginning of the End ?

[BlueJac]

87. Support all unions!

[swilton]

89. It's no longer about racism in this country

Class warfare pure and simple -

[RedCloud]

91. Woikers of the woild unite! You have nothing to lose but your ball and chain.

[Omaha Steve]

93. It would be nice to see more members in the Labor Forum!

In case you didn't know: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=367

I'm AFSCME, Local 251.

OS

[M_A]

96. Former UAW here

until our jobs went south of the border and we were all laid-off. But still a passionate union supporter.

Conservatives busted the unions down and demonized us. I remember feeling really afraid in the early '80s but it likely started even earlier. Now the younger generations don't have a clue how important the union is, especially to the blue collar segment. Just another issue the democrats allowed the republicans to "frame" and define.

[Heathen57]

97. I am very much in favor of unions.

Besides working for one I have seen what a company can do when a union isn't there to protect the worker. Believe me it wasn't pretty.

What the younger generation doesn't know is that the Unions are there for the protection of the worker. For them. With the waning influence of the unions came the days of wage disparity, the idea of downsizing and letting the remaining people do twice the work for the same pay, the loss of company loyalty where a worker stayed with a company for his entire working life. He became highly skilled in his job and the quality of the product showed that. When a person had pride in their work, that pride showed in the quality of the work they did. With the "Right to Work" laws, all of that went down the tubes. The older people clung to those values only to be skewered by a company who no longer thought of them as part of a team or anything else but a tool to be tossed when no longer useable.

People are angry about the job situation now, but many of those opposed the Unions during the last 30 years (since Raygun). We are reaping the rewards of that change in mindset.

[LanternWaste]

99. nt