toyota to refute california runaway prius story

[spanone]

this guy had his car for two years......toyota drove it for two hours.....who to believe?

AP Source: Toyota to cast doubt in Prius case

DETROIT — A person briefed on the matter says Toyota will cast doubt on a California man's claim that his Prius sped out of control.
The person says the automaker will show that a backup safety system worked properly. The person didn't want to be identified because the information will be released at a news conference later Monday.
The person also says Toyota will show that damage to the Prius brakes was inconsistent with driver James Sikes' story. Sikes says his car raced to 94 mph on a freeway near San Diego.
The March 8 incident ended when Sikes stopped the car with help from a California Highway Patrol officer.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gc_pIFqke7WxQovY3MnhcyIYiLgwD9EF7PQO2

[Brickbat]

1. They're going to play they hell out of this one, esp. if it does turn out to be a fake, but keep

your eye on the ball. Toyota has a lot to lose -- and to answer for -- from this whole debacle.

[liberal N proud]

2. The only problem I have is where did the car get towed to?

A TOYOTA dealer.

Quick, while no one is looking swap the brakes with that car over there.


The Patrolman still says he smelled hot brakes.

[MindPilot]

37. Brakes can get very hot, smoke and smell...

and be prefectly fine once they cool down.

[itsrobert]

3. Strange, how they have not release data on other Toyota's going out of control

They can show the "backup safety sytem" worked properly on this one, but they haven't been able to show it on others.

[NoGOPZone]

8. Many of the other models don't have the override system

This article vaguely states that Toyota began installing brake overrides in other models "this year".

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-prius15-2010mar15,0,3128570.story?track=rss

spelling edit

[Statistical]

36. Thart is correct. I believe on Prius has override system.

To me that seems (hindsight being 20/20) a very stupid idea.

All cars should be required to stop when break if pushed. Too simple.

Obviously if the car "senses" both gas pedal and brake are pushed it should ignore the gas pedal over the break.

Gas = Go
Break = Stop
Gas + Break = Still Stop (keep throttle at idle)

[Romulox]

46. If the *primary* safety systems can fail in a way that leaves no error code, why not the *backup*?

:shrug:

[sendero]

106. Because the others..

... don't have it. As far as I know, only the Prius has this particular backup system.

The other Toyotas with the "unintended acceleration" problem do not have this override system.

[LisaM]

4. Are they going to claim the patrolman lied?

This is the part I don't understand - there was law enforcement involved.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Its easy enough to heat up your brakes and get that lovely smell etc without locking them up

The CHP officer observations would be still be valid even if serious braking was not really attempted

[LiberalFighter]

10. They are going to claim that the patrolman hates the Japanese.

[yodoobo]

15. Patrolmen didn't lie.

He reported what he saw and smelled.

But there is no way the guy was braking for 20 minutes. If he was standing on the brakes they wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes, let alone 20. And sorry, a Prius doesn't have the power to overpower full braking power. Virtually no car does let alone an economy car.

Clearly, this liar waited till the cops showed up and then applied the brakes.

This guy was told multiple times to put the car in neutral. each time he put the phone down. Later he said he was "afraid the car would flip". This guy is a sports car enthusiast. He belongs to a Corvette club. No way was he that stupid.

I'd say there is a 75% chance that charges will be filed against this guy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I guess the CHP officer who got killed

driving a Toyota, which accelerated, also did not know how to operate his vehicle. Why are you taking the words of corporations as gospel?

[yodoobo]

22. That was a different incident.

Clearly it was real.

I'm not taking the word of a corporation.

I'm taking my word of knowing liars in action and basic knowledge of mechanics.


Most all of these incidents are real.

But I don't believe the Sikes incident for a second.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. So if somebody does not get hurt or killed it is clearly not real

I get it.

:eyes: :eyes: :crazy:

[yodoobo]

27. no you don't get it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Having worked EMS and seen my fair share of accidents

I actually get it far better than you do.

By the way Ford tried the same maneuver over oh Pintos... you probably are too young to know what the hell I am talking about. In the end guess who lost?

[yodoobo]

38. You seem to think I'm defending Toyota

That's not the case.

I think that Toyota has a big problem on their hands.

But at the same time, that doesn't mean that dirty players won't jump in and try to cash a paycheck.

The Sikes incident smelled hinky from the moment I read about it. There are MANY giveaways.

Since then I've seen the video of him talk. MORE giveaways that most people don't detect, but folks who are trained in detecting liars can.

Then there are allegations of dishonesty in his history and things that are...hinky.

Finally, there is the engineering report from Toyota. But they they are clearly biased and have an agenda. So lets throw that out.


In the case of Pinto, Ford had a problem and they played dirty. But guess what? There was still dishonest people who tried to cash in on that as well.


Don't believe for a second that Toyota has a monopoly on dishonesty.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. And they have tried this

dishonesty route with EVERY incident... INCLUDING that CHP officer who got killed not twenty minutes from where I sit. So you either look at the PATTERN and realize the malfeasance is coming from Toyota, or you don't. It is that simple.

By the way what finally got the there is a problem with Toyota was the fact that the CHP officer was a TRAINED driver. Yes, they tried to say that it was driver error.

[yodoobo]

45. corporate dishonesty and their spin machines

makes me sick as well.

I know exactly of what you speak of.

While its my opinion that this particular incident is staged, that doesn't mean that Toyota doesn't have some Kharma to play catch up with.

Assuming that I'm right for a moment, I don't have a problem with Toyota paying some Kharma catch up here with this guy.

The problem I have though, is that if this guy did stage it, and it becomes proven that he did, now he discredits everyone else with real problem and real incidents...and makes it far more difficult for those real victims to receive justice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. It is as staged as that CHP officer getting killed

only difference nobody died.

[spanone]

43. define 'smelled hinky'

[yodoobo]

50. Could probably write a dozen pages and still not explain it fairly

But here's a couple good reads:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hinky

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hinky

[spanone]

52. as applied to this incident

[yodoobo]

62. Here's just one

Contrast these two actions:

1) Calls for help. When given the one piece of advice that would have resolved the issue in seconds he puts the phone down. Later he said that he was afraid that taking the advice would "flip the car over". That advice was putting the car in neutral. While such an event is literally unheard of I suppose it could be attributed to someone with little practical knowledge of automobiles. Yet this man is a sports car enthusiast and belongs to a local Corvette club.

His stated reason for refusing the single instruction that would resolve the incident seemed to be sourced from an extreme level caution.

2) Claims that he has reached down and lifted the accelerator and found that this did not resolve issue. Reaching down and lifting accelerator requires taking ones eyes off the road and placing body in an extremely awkward position. TO do would would endanger him and everyone around him. During that time he would be blind and unable to control the vehicle at speeds over 90 mph.


One of these actions is extremely risky and dangerous, the other displays an over abundance of caution. This is understandable if it occurred within a few minutes of panic. But not reconcilable during a period of 20 minutes with repeated requests.


Now I am certain that anyone here can explain this away. I'm sure that the lawyer he recently retained will be able to explain it as well. Its just one "hinky" data point, but putting it in context of many other peculiarities...it all points to one thing.

[spanone]

66. at 94 mph it all points to nothing.

i had an automobile that did this same thing but it was due to a mechanic leaving a wrench socket in the assembly of my gear mechanisms. when i was going down the highway at 105 it was very difficult to think straight and afterwards i could hardly remember how i got out of it. the prospect of imminent death clouds the mind

[awoke_in_2003]

116. I like definition 3...

has a certain poetry to it:
"the instant of knowledge when one becomes deeply aware that there is pure evil fuckery afoot."

[hex29a]

108. Is mechanical engineering part of being an EMS?

I guess I didn't know that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. No but emergency vehicle operations is part of it

I am sure that comes as a shock to you too.

That emergency vehicle operation included silly shit like knowing the mechanical systems and how they worked in our vehicles inside out.

That included the brakes and shit like that.

[Kalyke]

40. I'm a sports car enthusiast and I would be more terrified

of a Prius flipping than a 'Vette.

The Prius is a bubble... round top. It's an economy car, i.e. not made with the suspension, design and roll-over resistance a typical sports car is designed to endure.

I'd say there is a 75 percent chance that some on this board cannot come to grips with the fact that Toyota has been putting out cars that are not only pieces of crap, but could KILL you.

[yodoobo]

42. I agree

But I've never heard of a car flipping over because it was put in neutral.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. You do realize that modern cars do not necessarily

"allow you" to put them in neutral... because the SOFTWARE will not allow it to shift to neutral to protect the engine and gear box.

Oh wait, you did not.

Now on my 18 year old Toyota Truck (which still has an EMERGENCY BREAK) that trick works just dandy... but not in my modern Honda Civic.

Modern cars you switch to a LOWER gear...

[yodoobo]

57. Yes

Are we talking about these problems at the macro level or just the one incident?

At the macro level its an issue imo. Still requires multiple simultaneous failures (ignition off failure, brake failure), but is possible perhaps even likely.


In this particular case, that fact is not applicable.

1) He did not attempt to put the car in neutral. In fact he put the phone down when requested.

2) This particular car does not have such a neutral block and putting the vehicle in neutral would have resolved the problem.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. No it would not, for the same reasons

it would not on my honda civic.

By the way, EXPERT, the relevant pages from the Owners manual were posted here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7922715

[yodoobo]

63. the auto in question was a Prius

Your manual cite confirms that neutral would indeed be functional.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. That citation is from the Prius Manual

try again... readying would be nice.

[yodoobo]

75. yes of course.

It advises against putting a Prius in neutral. Could cause damage to the vehicle. this is true of all vehicle that don't have software blocks. Even with a rev limiter its not healthy for an engine to be pinned against redline.

If the neutral was software blocked, it wouldn't be an issue.

Of course in an emergency, redlining or damaging the engine is a preferable result over an accident at 90+ mph speeds.


This is a nice academic discussion, but it has no application to this particular event, as the driver in this instance refuses to try to put it in neutral and in fact never did place the vehicle in neutral. So we are discussing a possibility that was not even attempted.

If had had done as the person giving assistance suggested, the incident would have ended quickly albeit with possible damage to the engine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. For me this fine academic discussion has been real

in a few situations.

The last time I put the car in neutral to help it stop, after slowing quite a bit, and used an emergency brake.

From the description this perhaps will not make sense to you but I HAD an emergency Brake, and the car COULD go into neutral. Yes, it was an OLD car, still IS an old car, and I used every bit of training I had to keep control. And I brought a car down from highway speed to a safe stop in a dangerous condition... having a tire fall apart on me at highway speeds, to be specific my front, driver side tire. This type of incident usually kills or hurts people severely.


I would not try that particular maneuver on the Civic though, not because of redlining an engine (that is what insurance is for)... but because the way the "gear box" in hybrids is designed to work and operate could place that car in an out of control situation. It is a DESIGN feature. Get it now? Or you still stuck in this guy is a shindler and lord knows Toyota has no reason to slime him.

Now in a truly theoretical level, if Toyota admitted a serious design flaw after the CHP officer got himself killed, instead of try to do to him the same, even before his body hit the bottom of his tomb, then I'd be more sympathetic to your argument. Given Toyota's history, sorry, they are the ones lying here. Perhaps THAT story did not receive the same level of attention where you live (it did not, it went away once the CHP said, yoohoo he was one of ours), but locally it did... I mean it played on for close to three weeks. And the CHP got very involved since they were slimming one of their own.

They have tried sticky breaks... nice excuse given how much this is software driven. And they have tried bad floor mats... cute... But admit that they have a serious problem... no, that might cause them some serious money. Problem is well it already is, the same way some burning Pintos did to oh FORD a few decades ago. Now you will not see this, because you are stuck in the individual is obviously a shindler, and you are defending Toyota even if you do not realize it... but you are. And sadly you are following a well trained reflex... it does not matter what kind of corporate scandal, people will attack the little guy... they are going after money, attention, what have you... but rarely look at corporations. This is fine training and manufacturing of consent we have going here...

Yes, the same happened with Enron, the same happened with Ford (a few times, not just the Pinto) the same happened when Wendy's served a finger... and I could go on. So I think we'd better say our good byes. I hope you never have to try to put a MODERN car onto neutral, you have a good change of getting a shocker on you (they don't do that easily, pesky software), so I advise the lowest gear possible... and judicious use of your parking break, that might help to stop your car at ten miles or less. An emergency break it ain't any longer either, so that old stand by does not work any longer either.

[yodoobo]

89. I might try it this week.

I drive a 2002 Ford Ranger I've shifted into a number of times at speeds of around 70 mph and coasted...essentially for the fun of it. Now I grant you that probably doesn't qualify as modern so we can set aside that data point.

In any event, I travel for business quite often. I'll be picking up a rental in a few days. Heck Hertz even rents Prius's so I'm thinking I might request one and try it.

See here's the thing. If putting a car into neutral would flip it over, or cause it to go careening out of control - THAT would be a huge design flaw that would have landed any manufacturer into the hot seat long ago. Neutral isn't gated in any car that I've seen. Just a tap would put the car into neutral. Imagine if a simple/accidental tap would cause you to lose control. Now THAT is a lawsuit!

So I'll put my money where my mouth is. Whatever car I get from Hertz later week, it'll be a late model something. I'll pop it into neutral at highway speed. If I'm wrong I guess I'll have my own payday.

Finally. I kindly suggest that you are looking at this in too absolute of terms. I think that Toyota has played dirty and has a problem - but that doesn't mean that scammers won't try to take advantage. In fact I think that is exactly what is happening here.

Now if person is scamming Toyota, I won't shed a tear if they lose a few dollars....but if he is found out, think what that does for the case and credibility of real victims...victims like that CHP officer.

This isn't a black and white issue. Its very possible Toyota and this particular guy isn't on the level.

In any event, take care. I think we are both set in our opinions and probably won't sway each other :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. It will shift to lowest gear possible

not neutral. That is what is happening to the idiot on line swearing his way to telling us how idiotic we are.

That is what the software does, to protect the vehicle, the gear box and the engine.

And most people cannot tell the difference anyway.

[liberal N proud]

80. BINGO!

[PBS Poll-435]

92. Prius has a CVT. Prius has an emergency brake. (not BREAK!1!)

:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Parking brakes are not emergency brakes

but that's ok.

(At least not in MODERN VEHICLES, don't care who builds them)

[Tesha]

101. Actually, they are.

All cars sold in the United States for road use must have two
completely-independent braking systems, sharing, *AT MOST*,
only the friction material.

So the cable-operated brakes that we tend to refer to as the
"Parking Brake" are also the mandated emergency brakes.

They may act only on one pair of wheels and they may be
wimpy, but they *ARE* the emergency brakes.

Tesha

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Yeah but I am sure you know that

modern parking breaks are not capable of doing the job they used to. They do not have to put the same tension or friction they USED to have to do.

But that's ok... I am sure you will keep defending corps for ever and a day.

[Tesha]

105. I have no interest in defending any corporation. I *DO* have an interest in seeing truthful facts...

...presented and, with regard to Emergency Brakes, you were presenting
incorrect information.

Based on that, I expect you're also wrong in your statements about how
the Prius behaves when one puts the direction selector into "Neutral".

Tesha

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. My info about "emergency breaks" comes from

TRAINED PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS who like do this for a living, including well COPS and OTHER professionals... where does yours come from?

My info on how a prius behaves when going to neutral comes from info on the Hybrid system and why you should not put it in Neutral, since the Civic (which I happen to own) has the same caveat for the same exact design reasons.

What about you?

Oh and just in case you wonder, this is from WIKI

Although sometimes known as an emergency brake, using it in any emergency where the footbrake is still operational is likely to badly upset the brake balance of the car and vastly increase the likelihood of loss of control of the vehicle, for example by initiating a rear-wheel skid. Additionally, the stopping force provided by using the handbrake instead of or in addition to the footbrake is usually small and would not significantly aid in stopping the vehicle, again because it usually operates on the rear wheels; they suffer reduced traction compared to the front wheels while braking. The emergency brake is instead intended for use in case of mechanical failure where the regular footbrake is inoperable or compromised, hopefully with opportunity to apply the brake in a controlled manner to bring the vehicle to a safe, if gentle halt before seeking service assistance. Modern brake systems are typically very reliable and engineered with failsafe (e.g. dual-circuit hydraulics) and failure-warning (e.g. low brake fluid sensor) systems, meaning the handbrake is no longer often called on for its original purpose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parking_brake

Now THEY USED to be far more effective and designed to work a little different, but I am sure you did not know that in OLDER vehicles... why they were recommended earlier in a combination with the actual breaking system... but that is in the antediluvian period when I was also TRAINED as an EMERGENCY VEHICLE OPERATOR, where I actually GOT TO USE THESE SKILLS like in for real and shit.

[Tesha]

109. Damn! My information only comes from...

FEDERAL
MOTOR VEHICLE
SAFETY STANDARDS
AND REGULATIONS

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC
SAFETY ADMINISTRATION

SAFETY ASSURANCE

OFFICE OF VEHICLE SAFETY COMPLIANCE

Standard No. 105 - Hydraulic and Electric Brake Systems - Passenger Cars (Effective 1-1-68)
This standard specifies requirements for vehicles equipped with hydraulic and electric service
brake systems and associated parking brake systems to ensure safe braking performance
under normal conditions and emergency conditions.

[hex29a]

112. Sorry, that's no match for Wiki or antedeluvian driver training.

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. Enjoy yoru stay at DU and my IGNORE LIST

[hex29a]

115. Thank you.

Very much.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. and they have changed in the last 20 years or so

that is the FUCKING POINT.

Have a good day... or a good life. Welcome to my ignore list

[hex29a]

110. I have seen 3 Corvettes that 'flipped'. They pretty much grind down to a 20 inch thick piece of

shredded fiberglass. The occupants were as well. (I've owned six Corvettes and was a traffic investigator/policeman for many years.)

Any car can 'kill' you just like any gun can...depending on how it is operated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. That's exactly where they are going to do.

after the CHP officer died in San Diego, they tried to say it was floor mats.

They have been trying to minimize this for a while. This is as big as oh Pintos bursting up in rear end crashes... and they know FORD did not recover easily. They also know that Ford then got into trouble over ignition systems that went on fire. By the way, last recall done... oh in 1981.

This not just affects Toyota... but also their OTHER luxury brand, the Lexus... it could cost them a few quid... (And if the mechanical system and software packet is spread further than Toyota it may affect other manufacturers as well)

What I find impressive is how people keep taking the word of Corporations as gospel and doubting that indeed there is a problem, and that yes a CORPORATION will do what they can to keep the profit flow going. Yes, even lie, cheat and if they can buy Government Officials... we call that bribery... ugly term and all.

Oh and the President of Toyota of El Cajon does look like a used car salesman... there I said it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. I believe the NHTSA was also involved in the investigation

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Software glitch

and they are doing this AGAIN.... because we all know their systems are very safe... TRUST US....

What is sad is we have been talking of replacing our aging truck for a few years. We were considering a Prius... not any more. Or for that matter ANY toyota...

[spanone]

9. toyota 'this incident did not take place'

this is what they said in their press conference....basically called the driver a liar

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. The lawyer is probably getting ready to file

in San Diego Superior Court...

This will get nasty.

The way they first handled it would have avoided that.

[yodoobo]

11. I believe Toyota in this case

This PARTICULAR incident stunk from day one.

The details that have come out have only made the story even stinkier.

.

Now all the other Toyota incidents? I believe them.

But this Sikes incident? Not a chance.

[spanone]

13. why?

[yodoobo]

19. This is a balloon boy event.

Thats why.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. HOW?

[spanone]

25. thank goodness you were in the vehicle to report this to us.

:hi:

your thorough explanation has completely convinced me that mr sikes is a serial liar.

[Renew Deal]

14. Yes, you should pay all your debts before your car malfunctions

:eyes:

[yodoobo]

17. and sweep up your straw.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Why because TOYOTA says so?

They have a LOT to lose here... they will GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to minimize it.

Now this will end up in court, CIVILIAN court, and I would not bet on Toyota winning if I were you.

[yodoobo]

26. negative

I don't care what Toyota says.

This is based on my evaluation immediately after, and then solidified by later details.

75% chance that this guy will be charged with filing a false police report.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. YOu were the officer driving that CHP car?

I did not know that. I am sorry...

You are going from PRESS reports, which have a certain corporate bias regardless.

[Renew Deal]

31. So you made it up.

OK.

[yodoobo]

39. made what up?

my opinion?

My opinion is always made up. I'm sure that yours is to.

[Romulox]

12. So...Toyota has admitted to sudden acceleration problems, it can't find the cause, BUT

it can prove this guy is lying? Logically, this would seem unlikely for the reasons I mentioned...

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. If this is a software glitch

I am not shocked they cannot replicate it.

Then there is all they can lose and are losing...

[Renew Deal]

32. It's a software glitch and has been from the beginning.

The "floor mats" and "sticky pedals" have been a distraction from the beginning.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Of course they have

and this is probably deep in the code...

And we have people here buying the corpo poop sandwich... incredible isn't it?

[spanone]

34. amazing

[Tesha]

104. And you know this how? (NT)

[Xithras]

44. The guy is not claiming that it was a software glitch, and his story doesn't support a sw glitch

He has stated repeatedly that the gas pedal was jammed to the floorboard, and that when he tried to pull it up, the pedal just wouldn't budge. His story is VERY different than that told by other Toyota owners, who claimed to have acceleration problems even when the pedals were up and not being touched.

This guys story points to a mechanical problem in the pedal assembly itself, which would be fairly easy to identify. There are only a few moving parts in a pedal assembly, and only a handful of things that can go wrong.

My gut feeling is that we're looking at another Balloon Boy incident. He seemed like an innocent victim of a horrible mishap at first, but as more information comes out he's starting to look like an attention seeking fraud.

[spanone]

47. what is the 'more information' ?

[Xithras]

59. If you're not following the story that closely..

...I'm not going to summarize a weeks worth of news articles for you. But it runs the gamut from his financial issues to the brake disk analysis on his car which the NHTSB reported was "not consistent" with his claim of sustained high speed braking. There's also the fact that, following the initial release of these reports, his wife made a statement that he would no longer be cooperating with the investigation or talking to the press about it. He wouldn't even face the cameras to make the statement himself, but instead sent his wife out to do it. Once the forensics started coming out, he turned turtle and stopped talking to anyone.

The guy smells like a fraud, which really shouldn't shock anyone. Any time you have a media blitz on a problem of this magnitude, there are bound to be a few hangers-on who try to exploit it for fame, money, or even out of simple mental illness. I have no idea what his motivation is, but the pieces of this puzzle don't fit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Of course the fact that his lawyer

advised him to shut up since it is an active case to be filed in court, has NOTHING to do with this.

[Xithras]

64. Which case would that be?

Surely he isn't filing a compensation suit after stating, ON CAMERA, more than a dozen times that he wasn't going to sue Toyota, didn't want their money, and only did this as a "public service". When reporters asked him last week if he did this for money and he flatly and bluntly stated that he had no intention of suing anybody, was he lying?

If he's not suing Toyota, and Toyota isn't suing him, exactly what active case are we talking about?

And if there's no suit, why has he stopped talking since the preliminary NHTSB information came out on Saturday?

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spanone]

67. i would not talk to the press. my financial situation would be none of their business.

and toyota has been anything but forthcoming on this problem. no court would convict a man because he 'smells' like a fraud.

right now i'll take his word over toyotas.

[Xithras]

68. But, according to him, that was his whole point in coming forward.

To summarize a statement that he's made many times since starting this: "I have no interest in suing Toyota, and just wanted to let the media know about this to warn people."

Suddenly, he's not talking anymore.

As for Toyota, one other simple fact has been lost in the noise of this incident. As of now, Sikes is the only person in America to ever claim a runaway throttle problem on the Prius. There are recalls on the Prius for braking issues, and many claims of runaway throttles on other Toyota models powered by completely different engine types and software code, but as of now, Sikes is the ONLY person to ever claim to have a runaway Prius, and he did so in a manner that is inconsistent with every other runaway throttle case published to date.

[spanone]

72. suddenly they went after HIM.... i wouldn't talk either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. And that is why he got a lawyer

they tried the same thing with him they have tried with every other incident...

Hell they slimmed a CHP officer who was dead with his family.

And I will say it, this is not Toyota, this is corporate thinking.

[yodoobo]

77. The guy is smart for getting a lawyer.

In fact he'll probably need a civil and a criminal lawyer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. You are right, when the case AGAINST Toyota builds up

and it will be CIVIL... in his case I doubt class action.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Congrats, you do realize

that Hybrids tie the breaking system to the battery, and that this is done through SOFTWARE....

Oh wait, you probably did not.

[Xithras]

61. Which, again, has nothing to do with THIS GUYS claim.

He is saying that the gas pedal was STUCK to the floor. That's not a software problem. That cannot be a software problem. It's not remotely, theoretically, conceivably possible that it's a software problem. He said that the pedal itself, the plastic pad and the metal actuator bar that holds it down, were jammed into the carpet. That's not MY claim, it's HIS. It's what he told the police, told the press, told Toyota, and told the NHTSB.

The pedal assembly in the Prius is a mechanical collection of bars, pivots, and springs attached to an electronic position sensor at the top. There are no actuators or motors capable of moving it, and there is no way a computer could "command" it to stick itself to the floor. Especially not with enough force to resist the drivers attempt to "pry" it up as he claimed.

Is it possible that Toyotas have software problems? Of course. But THIS GUYS Prius didn't have one. There are only three possible explanations for the circumstances he has described: 1: A mechanical problem within the pedal assembly itself. 2: An external force, like a floormat, holding the pedal down. 3: Fraud.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Every system in that car is sofware

controlled.

This is not your grandmother's Pinto.

[Xithras]

81. *facepalm* Really?!?

So you think that a metal and plastic mechanical pedal assembly is software controlled? Really? Have you ever actually looked under the dashboard of ANY computer controlled car? I have! Hell, I used to spend my summers working for my uncle in his shop building electric VW Rabbit conversions. The Subaru in my driveway? I replaced did the mechanical and electronics work myself to convert it from a regular gas polluter to a PZEV model, cutting the emissions in half (for the technically inclined, I upgraded the sensors, cat, and reflashed the onboard ROM from a PZEV model). I also write computer software for a living, and teach students how to write it every day. I GURANTEE you that I'm better versed on the possibilities, improbabilities, and impossibilities of this situation than you are.

This, however, has nothing to do with computers, or software, or electronics. He claimed that the PEDAL ITSELF was stuck to the floor. A bad computer cannot magically take control of a mechanical pedal assembly, because the hardware isn't there to do it. The computer can't order the pedal to the floor, because there is no actuator within the pedal assembly capable of controlling pedal position. The situation he described isn't just unlikely to have been caused by software, it's factually impossible within the normal reality of our universe. Computers can control pedal output, but not pedal position.

He said that the pedal was jammed to the floor. That means there are three possibilities. 1: Floormat holding the pedal down. 2: Mechanical problem within the pedal assembly. 3: Fraud.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. You got no clue how the Hybrid system works

absolutely NONE.

Why you write what you write and are completely clueless.

Once again this is not your grandmother's Pinto.

Look I happen to drive a Hybrid Vehicle... just the Electrical harness makes any regular mechanic go no thank you. Do you have a clue why?

Hell, it has a hook up for the DIAGNOSTICS COMPUTER besides the ENGINE. Now why would that be?

And yes EVERY SYSTEM in that car has some form of software on it.... why they come with a slew of DIAGNOSTICS... but I am sure you knew that. Hell, it is the closest to a black box I have ever seen on a POV. And that software includes silly mechanical shit like the braking system that is INTEGRAL to the Hybrid system. You knew that right?

No you did not.

[spanone]

82. there is something that pushes my pedal down when i'm using cruise control...?

[Xithras]

83. Only if you have a completely mechanical throttle assembly.

If you DON'T have a computer controlled throttle, your pedal is physically connected to the throttle body by a cable. When one moves, the other moves. When you engage the cruise control and the actuator moves the throttle, your pedal responds.

In computer controlled vehicles with computerized throttles, the cruise control is managed by the computer because it's more precise. Dedicated mechanical actuators for the cruise control aren't needed, because the computer can achieve the same behavior using the normal throttle actuator.

Ergo, in computer controlled cars, your pedal does not move when you apply the cruise control. There is no longer a physical connection between the two.

[spanone]

84. that makes sense...thanks.

[LiberalFighter]

30. So the Toyota speed can't be controlled.

The brakes don't work.
The backup safety system doesn't work.

They only have one laptop with the software needed to read the data from their black boxes in the entire USA.

Toyota sure as hell doesn't want anyone to know the truth.

[upi402]

48. sad- MSNBC gave much more time to Toyota than to Dodd's finance reform

:tv: :argh:
Dodd's press conference was cut short and then a Toyota PR announcement went on and on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. And this shocks you how?

We have a press that is dedicated to manufacturing consent... you can even see it on this thread.

:hi:

by the way... it is sickening, isn't it?

[upi402]

65. lol

but but but,... it's MSNBC!
:banghead:

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Some are less obvious than others

[spanone]

56. they showed about 90 SECONDS of dodd. cnn showed none.

[Romulox]

49. Can anyone offer a rational motive for any possible hoax in this case?

I still haven't heard a convincing one, though I acknowledge that one may exist.

[Pavulon]

76. $$$$$$$$$$$$$(nt)

[Tesha]

79. He hoped. But he didn't work out all those pesky details ahead of time.

Gil Grissom would have had his ass nailed by now.

Tesha

[Romulox]

90. Can you explain to me how one would get money from this incident? nt

[spanone]

94. said he has no intention of suing anyone. how will he make $$$$$$$ ?

[Tesha]

78. Perhaps he's just an attention-grabbing crazy? Heaven knows enough Americans seem to be.

[Romulox]

91. That's kind of weak, without any supporting evidence.

There's not enough evidence to go on here to make a firm accusation, imo. I think people's biases (both pro and con) are filling in the missing record.

[Tesha]

93. There's plenty of evidence; you just don't want to see it.

In a few weeks or months, this will all become
much-clearer, no matter which way it falls.

Tesha

[spanone]

95. i want to see it. please display.

[Tesha]

99. Sorry, I don't jump through hoops on command -- look it up yourself.

Hint: search my previous posts.

Tesha

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

96. If it is clear to you *now*, why should we wait months for it to become "much-clearer" (sic)?

Do you claim to have some special "insider" information? Because, if you don't, you're left with the Toyota generated report, and the Corvette jacket. Oh, and the dude is a swinger, and once had a saxophone stolen (per his BK filing.)

That's not enough evidence for anyone but the convinced.

[Contrary1]

87. I expect everyone posting here to whatever side of the argument ends up being wrong

to come back and admit it, when the truth finally comes out. Especially two of you.

Yeah, like that will happen. :rofl:

[VMI Dem]

103. Microsoft to refute blue screen of death errors.