Thumbs up to USA Today for showing the victims of Toyota on their front page

[divideandconquer]

Much of the media including Toyota's de facto PR firm "Consumer reports" want to focus on possible fraud and ignore all the dead bodies.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. Consumer Reports is fronting for Toyota? Have a single shred of evidence to back that up

Or are you just living up to your handle again?

You probably think the ABC news report is gospel too despite things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3gQWGZ8uBw&feature=related

[divideandconquer]

2. Toyota is trying to trying to hide behind one possible fraud to take our minds off the real victims

When "Consumer reports" recommends Toyota's without driving them, when they say problem toyota models are OK because toyota will fix them next year, when they bring up the possiblity of fraud without actual evidence, that's bias.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Where is your citation for the Consumer Reports claim? Lets see a citation not hand waving

[DainBramaged]

8. (sigh) CR has ADMITTED they have given Toyota's passing grades WITHOUT TESTING THEM

Google is your friend, use it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. I found nothing in Google about CR giving passing grades without testing them

Perhaps you mean the owners survey or I just did not use the right search string. Any URLs to share?

[divideandconquer]

16. There might be a class you can go to learn 'googling"

No More Automatic Recommendations for Toyota

Because of its findings, Consumer Reports will no longer recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design. Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker’s excellent track record, even if the publication didn’t have sufficient reliability data on the new model. If Toyota returns to its previous record of outstanding overall reliability, Consumer Reports said it may resume this practice.
-------------------------------------------
http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/10/consumer-reports-toyota-quality-sees-cracks-in-its-armor.html
--------------------------------------
Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker's excellent track record, even if CR didn't have sufficient reliability data on the new model.

http://www.spartantailgate.com/forums/msu-red-cedar-message-board/272767-toyota-no-longer-receives-automatic-recommended-cr-status.html
----------------------------------------------
Toyota quality is slipping, and Consumer Reports says it’s due in large part to the new Tundra. Evidently, Consumer Reports has found that the new Tundra, specifically the V8 4×4 model, has “below average” reliability. Even more astounding, the new Camry V6 model was also found to have “below average” reliability. Because of the poor showing of these two new models, Consumer Reports has decided that they will no longer automatically recommend new Toyota models as they have in the past. Instead, Consumer Reports says that they will now wait for a full year of survey data before making a recommendation. Before anyone decides to return their new Tundras, we’d like to clear the air. 1. Consumer Reports shouldn’t automatically recommend any model. Ever. While it’s great that Consumer Reports had enough confidence in the Toyota design team to automatically recommend everything Toyota made, isn’t the idea of an “automatic recommendToyota is a lot like saying “as of right now, we’ve decided to do our job”. That’s hardly news.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2007/10/16/consumer-reports-says-new-tundra-is-below-average/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Tundraheadquarterscom+%28Tundra+Headquarters%29

MANY OF THESE PROBLEM TOYOTAS OUT THERE TODAY WERE RECOMMENDED AUTOMATICALLY BY "CONSUMER REPORTS" BACK THEN, SO THEY ARE TRYING TO AVOID GUILT AS WELL AS TOYOTA.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Nothing there shows they were in anyway Toyotas' PR firm...your claims are again specious

[divideandconquer]

19. You judge cars and give some cars a pass without actually vetting them, that's favoritism

When you recommend cars without sufficient testing and these cars turn out to have fatal problems, you have a dog in the fight. That's why "Consumer reports" is pushing the fraud story without any proof.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Have you read the CR Annual Automotive Issue, do you know how the data is derived?

If you had, you would realize that those ratings (not individual reviews) are generated.

[divideandconquer]

23. Yeah they make bogus comparisons based self selecting surveys of their cult members

Yeah, like in the latest issue, the "x" brand 4x4 version of a truck had better reliability then their 2WD! How can a more complicated version of the truck built in the same factory using the same parts and used in tougher conditions be more reliable than the simpler truck designed for street use? it's just bullshit.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. More of your biases showing I see

[NoGOPZone]

30. I'm the one who should be sighing

seeing that canard repeated here no matter how many times its been debunked.

[NoGOPZone]

3. I guess you have to give credit to Blomberg News then

seems they're focusing on dead bodies. Maybe even more of them then you are. ;-)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avQgmSFrg58A

[divideandconquer]

4. 30 years ago? Why didn't they include the model T? Toyota is killing people now!

[NoGOPZone]

5. .

"The 1995 Arkansas death was the FIRST of 20 fatalities involving Ford vehicles in NHTSA data supplied to Bloomberg"

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. Related thread here...interesting result about who has the most of these kinds of problems

based on complaints per unit sold. Clue: Its not Toyota


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7923480

[DainBramaged]

9. So we should assume that Toyota is your friend?

:eyes:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-03-14-crashes-involving-toyotas-raise-questions-victim-profiles_N.htm


They died in Toyotas, leaving many questions

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. Never owned one. Its that scams like the ABC report bother me

Toyota is far from the only brand having these issues.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. They also relied on the Gilbert/Kane hoax

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3gQWGZ8uBw&feature=related

Not saying that there are not issues, just that there are other make/models with higher rates and that there appears to be some questionable claims being made along the way.


Asking hard questions is fair game. Lets seem some of this reliably replicated and find some root causes. Its those who make claims without that who are the Glen Beck clones.

[PBS Poll-435]

29. You might actually read the cases. nt

[LostInAnomie]

14. Amen! Way too many on here are more than willing to forgive a company...

... that was knowingly killing people and tried to cover it up. Fuck Toyota.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. I'll join you when there is some repeatability and root causes found

Too much arm waving and charlatans in the mix right now to really know what is happening. What is clear is:
- There are other makes/models with higher rates of incidents, including several American cars
- The Kane/Gilbert testimony before Congress was fraudulent
- Toyota engineering is denying all of it
With that kind of crap running around in the M$M its hard to tell where the truth might be.

I have no business interest in Toyota, never owned one, not planning to. Its that engineering inquiry needs to be allowed to run its course. NHTSA is heavily involved. They don't seem to be able to replicate it, including the high viz one in the San Diego area. That doesn't mean there is not a problem, just that the root causes have not been found yet. I am willing to let them work through it rather than rush to judgment based on what is out there so far.

[divideandconquer]

17. "Toyota has the highest rate of complaints averaged across the 20 model years in the study,"

While Toyota has the highest rate of complaints averaged across the 20 model years in the study, in any given model year, another automaker usually has a higher rate, although in many of these cases it is a low-volume producer such as Jaguar, Land Rover, or Suzuki.
<http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/03/npr-analysis-shows-other-automakers-also-suffer-unintended-acceleration-sua.html?EXTKEY=I91CONL&CMP=OTC-ConsumeristRSS>

Gee, look at this list
http://wolferadio11.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/nhtsa-data-dive-95-cars-ranked-in-rate-of-unintended-acceleration-complaints/

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. How much more hypocritical can you get and still type?

First you bash CR as "Toyota's de facto PR firm" then you cite them as a source? Damn that's rich.

As for your second citation, I believe I referred to something quite similar up thread. I referenced it via another DU thread and the source URL is http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/ Note which make/model is above the 1st Toyota and where the Prius is on the list.

Couple of things should be clear even for you at this point:
- There are more than one make/model with these issues
- It has been impossible for even independent groups like the NHTSA to replicate
- There has clearly been some charlatans in mix, like Kane/Gilbert.

The intelligent solution is for unbiased investigations to continue and converge on the root cause(s). Based on what has been seen so far, most pros would expect expect a combination of multiple factors and that there is a single smoking subroutine is unlikely. Given the broad number of unrelated products it is happening on, human factors will most likely play a part as well.

[divideandconquer]

Toyota dominates every recent list, even "Consumer reports" says so

Even they can't hide it!

[DainBramaged]

24. When the guy starts using chalk boards and tying GM to Ford look out

There are some people who just won't accept reality, even professors.....

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. We use white boards today...less dust and ooooh those vapors

Seriously, many makes/models are showing unintended acceleration. It reasonable to consider common threads. It clearly won't be common S/W and unlikely common H/W. That leaves things like the basic system requirements and things like human factors. Being unwilling to look that widely could preclude finding all the sources of this serious problem.

I take this issue seriously, what I reject is some of the crap that is being pushed as "the problem" like the Kane/Gilbert fraud. NHTSA may not have been taking it seriously in the past, but they certainly are now. Until things can be at least partially replicated, conclusions as to what is happening, why they happened, and who is responsible are premature at best.

[divideandconquer]

Toyota dominates every recent list, even "Consumer reports" says so

Even they can't hide it!

[divideandconquer]

22. Toyota dominates every recent list, even "Consumer reports" says so

Even they can't hide it!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. You still won't answer the original questions or address the basic issues, but you have placed your

biases on the table.

[PBS Poll-435]

25. How about you read some of the stories of the actual people involved?

Old age, drunken driving, cars that don't even have electronic throttle controls.

And I love "anonymous" tips to NHTSA.