LoLz! Toyota Says 'Runaway' Prius Driver May Have Had His Foot on the Gas

[PBS Poll-435]

Toyota Says 'Runaway' Prius Driver May Have Had His Foot on the Gas
Automaker Says Investigation Shows James Sikes Hit Brake and Gas At Least 250 Times


At a Monday afternoon press conference, Toyota representatives said that there were "significant inconsistencies" between what driver James Sikes said happened to his 2008 Prius on a San Diego freeway last week, and what their own inspection and test drive of the vehicle showed. "There are significant inconsistencies between the event of March 8 and the findings of this investigation," said Toyota Motor Sales spokesman Mike Michels.

According to Toyota, while Sikes' front brakes were worn away, his rear brakes were "fine," and a reading of electronic data from Sikes' car showed that he had applied the brakes and the accelerator alternately at least 250 times.

Michels and the other Toyota representatives gathered before a microphone at San Diego's Qualcomm Stadium stopped short, however, of saying the data indicated Sikes was actually trying to keep the car in motion rather than stop it.

Michels said the data showed that Sikes must have applied repeated light pressure on the brakes rather than the full pressure needed to stop the car. He said that if Sikes had been applying more than moderate pressure on the brakes while the accelerator was pressed or stuck to the floor, the override system in the Prius would have been activated by the brake and shut off the acceleration.

More at http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-runaway-prius-driver-foot-gas/story?id=10105404

[blue_onyx]

1. Well, if Toyota's investigation

into their vehicle proved that they and their product weren't at fault, it must be true :sarcasm:

[liquid diamond]

41. Why question their credibility?

:sarcasm:

[PBS Poll-435]

58. Cuz they weren't driving on I-8 alternating between the accelerator and the brake pedal 250 times

In the 20 minute "event" on 3/8/10 that could have been reduced to 15-30 seconds? :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. And toyota of course is right

:sarcasm:

Watch... you will see it.

Many folks here missed how they slimmed the CHP officer... it was another "Operator Error," that stopped the moment the CHP said... oh wait, remember us? He was one of ours.

[PBS Poll-435]

4. Are you referring to the CHP Officer that crashed the Lexus loaner?

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Yes, and that car shared

the braking system with the Camry, the Corolla and the Prius

[PBS Poll-435]

8. That car also had improperly installed vinyl All-Weather Mats on top of the standard carpet mat set

In the ES350 sedan.




Not to mention, that the Prius has regenerative braking. The ES and the Camry share most components, and most Corollas have a front disc/rear drum setup that has nothing to do with the other models mentioned.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Oh yeah exuse number one

excuse number two was... sticky breaks

What will be excuse number three?

[PBS Poll-435]

14. Excuse? After a fiery crash they could still find evidence that the pedal was jammed underneath

A vinyl floormat. It was in the friggin' accident report.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Yes and how many excuses has Toyota come up wiht so far?

Mats

By the way not improperly installed, just defective mats

Sticky breaks.

What's next?

Sorry, I don't trust Toyota. They are acting like any corporation in this situation, trying to protect themselves from the inevitable losses.

Remember Ford and oh the Pinto? How long did it take for Ford to finally OWN to that design flaw?

Why do you think this is the case? What is their motive? They are a corporation after all... it is not your safety. It is profit.

[PBS Poll-435]

19. Yeah. They were improperly installed

They had no retention hooks to keep them in placed because they were just carelessly placed on top of the standard carpet mat set.


And I have never heard of "Sticky breaks." Maybe you meant brakes. And even in that case, it appears that driving over rough road can slows or delay optimal braking performance, but it isn't even close to what you are implying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. You believe Toyota, bless your heart

what other corps are you going to defend?

I don't... and they have been lying from word go and trying to deny there is a problem.

You realize they have people who calculate just how many of these accidents they have to accept until they have to actually DO SOMETHING?

[PBS Poll-435]

47. I believe the accident report (not conducted by Toyota) which claims that there were

Stacked floormats in a loaner Lexus ES sedan. Perhaps the dealer was worried about dirty carpet mats...

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. And tht became the excuse du jour

this one didn't have those mats because of that.

As I said, Toyota has bean counters who's job is to calculate how many of these incidents are acceptable.

(So does every other corporation, but you get the point)

[PBS Poll-435]

52. I guess I get your "point"

Everyone is out to get you. Every company is bad. Every anecdote should be taken as fact.

:scared:

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. No, but companies should not be trusted outright

and that is the point

The problem in the US is this reflexive defense of Corporations over people.

Yes sparky Corps do make mistakes, and corps try to hide them. Just in the Auto industry, you are old enough to remember the adventures with the Pinto, don't you?

I guess those were also operator error and not a design problem :sarcasm:

[PBS Poll-435]

55. No. The Ford Pinto was a death-trap. Just like the Explorer with Firestone tires.

Billions in R&D, real-life stories of how Toyota vehicles have saved lives, and common sense tell me that it is not the 1970s, again.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PBS Poll-435]

57. I guess I never really got the "corporation" thingy

You said it or a variant of it three times.

I have plenty of my own anecdotes, but I will spare you those horrifying stories of head-on collisions, T-bones, and other possibly catastrophic accidents where the driver and passenger actually open the door of the vehicle and walk out with minor or even no injuries.

Everyone wants to hop onto the bandwagon, I guess.

[spanone]

3. 'according to toyota' i'd say their integrity is questionable

perhaps if something was causing the car to accelerate and he put on the brake, it would appear as if he put on both...???????

[liberal N proud]

6. They can prove this HOW?

Lots of luck getting me to trust them ever again.

[PBS Poll-435]

7. Event Data Recorder (EDR)

The "black box" in modern automobiles.

[liberal N proud]

12. The computer in the toyotas dose not return any errors in the acceleration cases

Do they have the recorders?

If they did, I am sure they would be using data from them to cover their asses.

[PBS Poll-435]

16. Read the article

and a reading of electronic data from Sikes' car showed that he had applied the brakes and the accelerator alternately at least 250 times.

[awoke_in_2003]

24. Most cars these days...

have electronic throttles- no mechanical linkage to the intake system. If the electronics were screwing up, it is very conceivable that the signal was being sent that the accelerator was being pressed when it was not.

[PBS Poll-435]

25. And that is the crux of this entire hoax

If the electronics were "screwed up," then it would have nothing to do with the pedal. Mr. Sikes claims the pedal, by it self no less, pushed it self into full open-throttle.

Really? Nah.


And if what he said was true, then in 20 minutes he pumped the brakes about 125 times. Full brake-on/brake-off every 9.5 seconds? And still didn't even attempt to disengage the driving wheels by putting the car in neutral? Really?

[liberal N proud]

26. Unless the computer was erroneously recording such data

If the computer is accelerating on its own, what says its not recording bogus information.

[PBS Poll-435]

27. Tangible evidence. Front discs were wrecked by over-heating

Rear drums seemed ok...

[TorchTheWitch]

60. both front and rear brake pads were nearly gone

"Investigators also inspected the brakes on the vehicle. They found that both the front and rear brake pads were nearly gone."

Right there in the article. I'm not seeing how this translates to the rear brakes being "fine" as claimed by Toyota in the article. The photo caption also says: "Brake pads, shoes, and axle from the Toyota Prius James Sikes was driving, clearly showing evidence of burning."

Again, how does Toyota translate this evidence to the rear brakes being "fine"?

[PBS Poll-435]

61. Front wheels have discs, rear wheels have drums.

Brake drums don't exactly have the same photographic impact as worn front calipers, but then again, sex sells.

It will be very difficult for Mr. Sikes to find a automotive forensic witness that will say anything other than the brakes on his Prius were worn because of misuse, deliberate or otherwise.



You don't pump the brakes on a vehicle with anti-lock brakes. Every Auto Enthusiast should know that.

[awoke_in_2003]

28. The gear selector

in that one is fly by wire, too. If the computer or software says "no neutral" in this condition, then neutral will not engage. Instead of covering up for poor electronics, poor software, or both, Toyota needs to pull their heads out and find out what is going on. Or at least install a "Kill" button like motorcycles have (which is hard wired in to cut all current). If they don't do something it will bite them in the ass.

[PBS Poll-435]

29. Having owned a Gen-II Prius in the past, I can tell you that you can engage "Neutral"

At any speed. 80+MPH (I-40, 2005 trip) or 30MPH...

[awoke_in_2003]

33. Because in your situation

the computer allowed to to engage neutral. If the throttle sensor is anything like the one in my wifes 2000 Saturn (which I had to replace), it has a certain resistance when not pressed. As it is pressed, the resistance lowers to a dead short at full throttle. In my wifes situation, she just had what appeared to be a dead spot in the range, it could be felt while driving and was verified by testing the bad switch with a new one sided by side with a multimeter. Now, what if on the Toyota, due to a bad design or just a fluke, one of the wires got chafed an was moving around, grounding itself (dead short) to some metalic object like the firewall? Will the computer allow the car to go into neutral at this condition? As I am no Toyota expert, and any expert that works for Toyota will have a biased opinion, this should be investigated by the NTSB. Corporations, even the almighty Toyota, will only act in their best interests.

[PBS Poll-435]

35. A scenario such as that simply isn't possible in a Toyota Prius

Especially a late-model vehicle such as Mr. Sikes unless he had been in a major collision and did the repairs himself. Next to his Corvette. In his garage. With Bondo.

[awoke_in_2003]

36. Why?

Do the electrical leads not go through a metal firewall to get to the engine compartment (where the computer is). Could electrical wiring not get chafed in other places? I work on $15 million simulators that are built with a hell of lot more precision than any car on the road, but weird thing happen in ways nobody can foresee. Only engineers believe that they don't.

on edit: Toyotas are engineered and built by humans, just like every other car.

[PBS Poll-435]

37. Fail-safe mechanisms and a history of impeccable reliability.

I don't believe that 20+ minutes of unstoppable SUA is possible in a Prius.

[awoke_in_2003]

39. I guess people are just faking it then.

And that history of impeccable reliability was built when you had mechanical linkages on your throttle, a mechanical linkage between shifter and transmission, and an actual ignition switch. I know America is infatuated with its electronic gizmos, but certain things should not be fly by wire. Does it work on the Airbus? Yes, because you have a primary system, a secondary system, and double redundacy. It is damn near impossible to lose all your flight control systems. On a car, though, you do not have all those backup systems- it would be cost prohibitive. And since the only thing that matters in this world is profit, companies like Toyota will continue to deny and bury their heads in the sand until a certain amount of people die. And they know exactly how many people that is, because every car manufacturer employees people who calculate the cost of fixing versus the possible law suits by not fixing.

As far as failsafe, the only way they will get that is to have the mechanical linkages, or install a hard wired kill switch like motorcycles have. Electronics and software are NEVER failsafe (and software is the most dangerous part).

[PBS Poll-435]

45. Probably

Independent engine throttle & transmission controls. Independent 4-wheel anti-lock brakes with brake-assist just in case you don't push the pedal hard enough... Independent traction/stability control. Independent passive safety mechanisms such as front/knee/side/side-curtain airbags, seat belt force-limiters & pre-tensioners.

:shrug:

[awoke_in_2003]

48. And how much redundancy

is built into the independent engine throttle control? None. Same with the rest. We have way too much electronic whiz bangs on our cars these days, but what the hell- only 43 people have died due to weird accelerations in Toyotas. Fuck the proles :sarcasm:

[PBS Poll-435]

50. Wow

The USAToday article cemented my opinion on this matter.

Electronic throttle allows for traction/skid control and other vital safety features.



How many lives have been saved? What percentage of those 46 is due to user-error, drunken or overly aggressive(rage) driving?



:shrug:

[awoke_in_2003]

51. You are like an Apple fanboy...

I am an Apple person myself, but never understood the fanboy thing.

[PBS Poll-435]

53. Nice rebuttal

And Apple sux.


:-)

[sfwriter]

9. 250 TIMES

Lets say he was able to hit a peddle every half second...
That is TWO MINUTES OF NONSTOP PUMPING.

Sounds pretty strange and physiologically unlikely to me.

[NoGOPZone]

10. I didn't interpret it as being non stop

I interepted it as being during the length of his drive.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. That puzzles me as well

Your typical event data recorder is advertised of having a very short duration capacity, so to capture that much data seems really odd to me. Maybe the hybrids have longer ones/different subsystems for use in systems monitoring. Not a big deal at this point, but it is curious.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. Everyone should read the full article, including the parts where the NHTSA participated

Its not cut and dried any way you slice it in this episode or any of the others, and its not just limited to Toyota.

Here is an interesting table of unintended acceleration reports. Notice the make/models being reported. Its not just Toyota.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/

Several things are clear at this point:
- There are more than one make/model with these issues
- It has been impossible for even independent groups like the NHTSA to replicate
- There has clearly been some charlatans in mix, like Kane/Gilbert.

The intelligent solution is for unbiased investigations to continue and converge on the root cause(s). Based on what has been seen so far, most pros would expect expect a combination of multiple factors and that is unlikely to be a single smoking subroutine. Given the broad number of unrelated products it is happening on, human factors will most likely play a part as well.

Lets stop with the tabloid crap and let the pros work it. Until then, learn appropriate emergency procedures for whatever you drive (as in cars/trucks) or ride (as in motorcycle, not buses).

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. That's because these break\ software packages are used

and done by sub contractors... and your point here?

I am betting it is a software glitch at this point. And software glitches are HARD to reproduce.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. I don't think its a single point failure, H/W or S/W. Would have been found by now if it was

Its not like cars (or anything else)run Windows on safety critical sysems. Also look at the spread of brands and models involved.

My main point is that we need the hysteria and finger pointing to die down and let the pros figure it out. NHSTA now has this high on their list. It can and will be resolved.

Based on the spread of brands and models involved I personally believe at least part of it will be human factors

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. And I am betting on a software problem

and as to the "experts" forgive me for my skepticism, quick when was the last recall in US history?

Oh yes 1981.

Only idiots believe in coincidences.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. I did embedded systems for many years and teach it as well...perhaps its just a bias on my part

Until recently I was not convinced that NHTSA and others were taking this seriously. Now they clearly are. For now I am willing to believe that they as safety professionals can and will find the real cause(s). I will gladly buy you some valentine hearts or equivalent should you prove correct.

I had a recall on my former Honda before I passed it on to my daughter, are you sure about your date? Seen others for other brands, foreign and domestic.

[paulsby]

38. let's also remember what happened with SAI's and Audi's back in the day

it all turnbed out to be a bunch of crap

so color me agnostic, but cynical

[ProgressiveProfessor]

66. I am agnostic pending quality investigation of the problems across multiple makes and models

I am not quite a cynic, but the idiots at ABC and those who testified fraudulently before congress sure push me in that direction.

Until recently I am not sure NHTSA had this as a high priority. They certainly do now. Until there is some sort of repeatability, we should all chill and let the pros work it.

[paulsby]

69. and just to clarify

by cynic, i mean cynical in regards to the SAI claims

iow, i think it more likely than not that this is all bogus. there is no mechanical issue, just user error

HOWEVER... i am FAR FAR FAR from certain.

it's kind of ironic because about 6 months ago i was reading a book that was referencing the old audi SAI thang.

[Fumesucker]

20. If I were trying to heat up and wear the brakes in a car like the Prius that's how I'd do it..

Alternate accelerator and brakes on a car with the brake override that was working properly..

[yodoobo]

22. I'll wait till the NTSB report

But it looks like my initial assessment was right.

[alarimer]

23. oops!

I know, happens all the time

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PBS Poll-435]

31. The "victim" has a problem with credibility

The story makes no sense.

The physical/tangible evidence and data from the EDR contradict Mr. Sikes.

Yet...

[DainBramaged]

32. It amazes me how much credibility you give Toyota yet ignored all of the threads I started

that are in my journal that point a finger at Toyota's utter lack of concern for their customers.


Can you say hypocrite?

[PBS Poll-435]

34. I don't spend a whole lot of time in GD, and I will check out your journal

I am a GDP kind of guy, but I can't post about insane SUA claims there. :-)

[nonconformist]

40. Because Toyota's word and their on-board computers are SO RELIABLE

Taking Toyota's word for anything at this point is amusing enough, but using data from their obviously flawed on-board computers to make their point is downright laughable.

What should be the big story here is that THEY HAVE NO CLUE WHAT CAUSES THIS SHIT TO HAPPEN. And that *should* scare everyone, and I do mean everyone, regardless of what you drive. I know I don't want a Toyota plowing into me.

[greyl]

46. In your opinion, is it beyond the realm of possibility that this driver is lying? nt

[upi402]

44. Toyota says whaaa?

:rofl:
Because of their prior track record of reliability and my experience with their engineering and machining - I didn't think the floor mat thing was too much and bought Toyota's line.

With the REAL track record of Toyota now known, they are wasting their breath. STFU Toyota. Give buyers their money back and get out!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. Yeah, right.

Just like Wendy's claimed that lady put the thumb in her chili herself.

[boppers]

62. So, the Dingo ate his baby.

Got it.

[LostInAnomie]

63. If I had been told that the problem Toyotas have is a sticking gas pedal...

... and I'm in a car that is speeding out of control, I might stomp the gas pedal a few times in the hope that I might be able to kick it unstuck. Scared people do a lot of things to try to save their lives.

I'll believe almost anyone over a company that was knowingly killing people and tried to cover it up.

[PBS Poll-435]

67. 125 Times (at the bare minimum) in 20 Minutes?

Probably not.

[Dr.Phool]

65. They tried to interview the driver again,

But he was trapped in balloon flying over Colorado.

[Pithlet]

68. From the article:

Michels and the other Toyota representatives gathered before a microphone at San Diego's Qualcomm Stadium stopped short, however, of saying the data indicated Sikes was actually trying to keep the car in motion rather than stop it.
Michels said the company was not calling Sikes a liar. "We are not calling him anything," said Michels.

Asked what might motivate Sikes to tell a tale of random acceleration if it were not true, Michels said he didn't want to speculate. "We don't have an explanation," said Michels.

...

A Toyota representative confirmed to ABC News, however, that the electronic data did not show how hard the brake was being pressed. "The level of brake application is not recorded," said Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons, "only that the brakes were completely released and applied."

Asked at the press conference why the California Highway Patrol officer who helped Sikes bring his car to a stop reported seeing Sikes "standing" on the brakes, Michels said he assumed the officer's account was true.

(yeah, nice try on the bolding in your OP. I bolded the actual relveant part. They stopped short of saying he did it. They WEREN'T making the claim)

[JCMach1]

70. We should give Toyota the same scrutiny as this guy...

hmmmmmmmm