The Myth of Europe's High Taxes

[marmar]

from On The Commons:



The Myth of Europe's High Taxes
Americans pay just as much-- and receive far less in benefits, says author Steven Hill

Posted by Steven Hill


Do Americans really pay fewer taxes than Europeans? Contrary to conventional wisdom, the answer surprisingly is: not really. That’s because in return for their taxes, Europeans – even those unemployed during these tough times – have access to a generous support system for families and individuals that most Americans can only imagine. That includes not only quality health care but also child care, a good retirement pension, inexpensive college education, job retraining, paid sick leave, paid parental leave (after a birth or to care for sick children), ample vacations, affordable housing, adequate senior care and more. In order to receive the same level of benefits as Europeans, most Americans have to fork out a lot of out-of-pocket payments, in addition to our taxes. These payments often are in the form of fees, surcharges, higher tuition, insurance premiums, co-payments and other hidden charges.

For example, many Americans who have health care coverage are paying escalating premiums and deductibles, while Europeans receive health care in return for a modest amount deducted from their paycheck. My siblings are saving tens of thousands of dollars for their children’s college education, yet European children attend for free or nearly so. Many Americans pay dearly for child care, or without paid sick leave or parental leave must self-finance their own time off. But Europeans receive all of these and more – in return for their taxes. Millions of Americans are scraping for retirement, stuffing as much as possible into their IRAs and 401(k)s because Social Security provides only about half the income needed for retirement. But the more generous European retirement system provides about 80-85 percent (depending on the country). According to the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development, in the United States public spending on old-age care is nearly 25 percent less per capita than in Europe, but Americans’ private spending on old-age care is nearly three times higher per capita than in Europe because Americans self-finance a significant share of their own senior care. Either way, you pay.

Other taxes in the United States are hidden. Every year, the federal government gives $300 billion in tax breaks to businesses that provide health benefits to their employees. That’s $1,000 for every man, woman and child in the United States – 47 million of whom have no health coverage at all. That amount is easily enough to finance a real universal health care system covering every American, and it’s coming right out of every taxpaying American’s pocket. .........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://onthecommons.org/content.php?id=2664

[rfranklin]

1. Ours go to the war machine....

Without having to pay for that, we'd be on easy street.

[Wapsie B]

3. That is so right.

The MIC Eisenhower railed against is sucking up money like there's no tomorrow. Just think of all the good even a portion of the money spent on Iraq would've done. Even Rumsfeld's lost $2-3 trillion would go a long long way towards making this country actually civilized.

[patrice]

10. Yeah, and then there was the $3 trillion before that which the Pentagon told us about shortly after

9/11 - gone and un-accounted for.

You're soooooo right; even just a fraction of that money could do so much good.

[raccoon]

32. That's disgraceful that was allowed to just slip by.

Wonder what the inside story was. Guess we'll never know.

[pundaint]

15. Why can't we get any good Democrats like Ike anymore?

[japple]

107. Eisenhower was a Republican, maybe the only good one. n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

109. I think he knows that...

but was using that line to show how far right our party has lurched.

[japple]

116. Oops. Guess I'm one of the reasons the sarcasm smilie was

invented! :blush:

[awoke_in_2003]

117. well, I could be wrong...

I like to give the benefit of the doubt :hi:

[struggle4progress]

111. Eisenhower picked Nixon as his VP -- not exactly a beacon of light. Eisenhower never

really took on McCarthy directly -- and didn't stand up in any way at all until the time of the Army-McCarthy hearings. And although Eisenhower did appoint Earl Warren to SCOTUS, he later expressed regret for doing so. Eisenhower was a military bureaucrat: his instincts were to keep his head down, to avoid confrontation, and to smooth ruffled feathers. I don't think he was an evil man, but he wasn't a particularly good President

[progressoid]

4. +!

[FormerDittoHead]

25. + infinity n/t

[deaniac21]

28. You are correct. We are actually their military for them. We need

to get out of the world protection racket and take care of our own first.

[Betty Karlson]

31. Which is why European military is

posted across troubled areas of Africa, probably.

And NATO, of course, is an American organisation (sarcasm), primarily funded by the US (actually, the US is way behind in its contributions) and manned by US servicemen (sarcasm overdrive here).

[deaniac21]

33. European NATO members continue to spend, on average,

well under 2 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) on defense, according to new figures provided by the Atlantic alliance.

The average for European allies is 1.7 percent, whereas the U.S. GDP allotment in 2008 was 4 percent, NATO says. The U.S. spends by far more per-capita on defense than any other NATO members. In fact, the U.S. last year spent about 44 percent more on defense than all other NATO members combined.

According to NATO, among European members, Greece spent the highest percentage of GDP on defense, with 2.8 percent. France, not a full NATO member, had the highest absolute outlay on defense last year among the European countries, taking over from the United Kingdom, which held that distinction in 2007.

The United States leads in most categories, although Turkey managed to put 27.4 percent of its defense spending into modernization, even ahead of the U.S. level of 27.3 percent.

Greece, by contrast, still spends 74.1 percent of its budget on personnel, the highest proportion within the alliance. The Greek figure is actually an improvement over 2007 levels that approached 80 percent going to personnel costs. The Pentagon's allocation for personnel costs is the lowest within NATO, just below 30 percent of total spending, NATO says.

Officials and government data in Washington often cite a higher GDP rate for the United States, sometimes closer to 5 percent, when all war-fighting-related spending is included in calculations. Defense Department leaders and many conservative analysts have advocated for a 4 percent floor to defense spending in the baseline budget, which does not include paying directly for combat operations in Iraq, Afghanistan elsewhere.

[liberation]

37. None of those numbers make your case as to the Euros considering us their protection force.

In fact, having grown as an AF brat in Europe, it was clear the "natives" did not want us around for too long.

Is it somehow easier to think them Euros have mastefully forced us to spend all those bucks in things that go "boom" so they don't have to? That is giving them too much credit, me thinks.

[deaniac21]

43. I wish we would come home. It's a real money maker for all

Europeans.

[liberation]

47. Indeed, we should close a big deal of our bases over there...

... however, let's not pretend we are the victims when we are the ones putting the guy on other people's temples.

[The2ndWheel]

44. We're not really their protection force

The US military is the main protection force for the whole thing.

There's no global institution which collects all the funding and military hardware from all over the world. So as the last center of power still standing from the 20th century, and a global system which exists the way it does because the US was the last power standing, we're the world's police, by default, whether we want to be or not, no matter how well we do or don't do it. Since our political infrastructure around the world is still regional(a separate US, a separate China, a separate France, etc, etc, etc), only a small percentage of the global population pays for that global military. Which doesn't seem fair, but until something changes, that's how it is.

[JDPriestly]

85. Interestingly, however, at least when we lived there, European countries

required that young men either serve in the military or do public service for a certain amount of time. I don't know whether that is still the case. But mandatory service makes defense less expensive and keeps the military under control. We have a "professional" army. I am beginning to understand that, because they serve for so long and are the one branch of government that is large, has a big budget and employees and managers that remain in the government system for a long time, they wield the most power. Our military runs our country in so far as the most important policies are concerned, especially in so far as budget allocations are concerned.

[reggie the dog]

103. there has been no draft in france

for over 12 years now

[harmonicon]

38. that has nothing to do with it.

As that brief excerpt pointed out, the money that the US government now spends on healthcare could be reallocated to provide universal coverage. The US doesn't do these things because there is no money for them, but because there is no will in the government to do them. The US government exists to increase profits for private industry and to keep themselves in power; nothing more.

[earth mom]

127. Think of all the great things we'd have if it weren't for the warmongering of our "leaders"...

health care, good schools, jobs, green technology...

ALL the things people thought Obama would give a damn about when he was elected but that he doesn't-not one damn bit.

[Edweird]

2. I would happily accept the Canadian system for healthcare/social services.

I would even settle for a real step in that direction.
The RW piece of shit senate bill is 2 steps in the opposite direction.

[The Doctor.]

5. These realities will never make it into the American consciousness.

Not so long as profiteers continue to control information.

[Hissyspit]

13. Many Americans don't want to know. No matter what the media does.

[ladym55]

6. I wish we would grasp this very basic principle

The Europeans grasp the whole idea of "common good." We don't. We are SO afraid that someone we deem "unworthy" might BENEFIT from something we hurt ourselves.

We don't see the disconnect between whining about not raising taxes and whining that public college tuitions are so high or the roads are so bad or that we don't have enough police or firefighters.

[RainDog]

7. it's strange when monarchies are more democratic than republics, huh?

that's because the power is distributed among various groups via union organization.

and no religious right that gets taken for anything but loonies.

[happyslug]

54. Damn those State Established churches, keep the right wing in line

France is an exception to the rule of State Established Churches in Europe. England has such a Church, while Germany itself does NOT, most of the German states do (And both the German State as a whole and individual German states have all signed concordats with the Vatican on the relationship between the State and the Catholic Church).

As to France, the Catholic Church was the established Church till 1905, when a dispute with the Vatican lead to its dis-establishment. Sweden in the 1990s disestablished the Lutheran Church but that was more to centralized record keeping then anything else (Most State Churches kept records of births and deaths while into the 20th century in most of Europe, Sweden was one of the last Countries to remove such records from the Church to the State).

My favorite rule was that the German State (And France in Alsace-Lorraine) collect "taxes" for the church while they are collecting taxes for themselves. You can opt out of such payments, but most people do not. Alsace-Lorraine comes under this rule for it was part of the Concordat between Germany and the Vatican in the late 1800s. As the same time Alsace-Lorraine was under German Rule during the split of 1905 between France and the Vatican and thus that split does NOT apply to Alsace-Lorraine.

Please note the rule in the US is NOT only separation of Church and State but that the State will do NOTHING to interfere with Religion. It is this later part that permits the right wing to take hold, the state can NOT impose any effective check. I do NOT see how we can import the ideas of how Europe deals with the State and Church for our traditions on that subject is fundamentally different (Note even France did not fully separate the State from the Catholic Church till 1905) while the US had such a separation on the Federal Level by 1792 (when the Bills of Rights was passed) AND by 1837 when the last State (Massachusetts) disestablished its Church (Through that was more to save money for Welfare was run through the Church prior to disestablishment, when most States disestablished the Church it told its Widows and Orphans to go west and steal lands from the Indians as the replacement for Church run Welfare for the Poor).

My point is the treatment of Separation of Church is different in Europe then in the US. We have an almost absolute attitude of separation which permits the right wing to flourish. Europe by keeping the Church closer to the State undermine such radicalization. In many way by keeping the Church close to the State is a better way to handle such situations better then the more absolute separation we have in the US.

Just remember Justice Oliver Wendall Homes famous dictum "The law reflects experience, not logic" and both the US and Europe had to go from closely related State-Church relationship of the 1700s to today's almost complete separation. The US started earlier but less effected by the Raise of Nationalism, while Europe went on that similar route but with a Strong Dash of Nationalism from the 1830s till the late 1940s. Unionization is a big factor, more so in Europe then the US as is the raise and fall of Communism. All of this have had the effect of restricting Religious radicalization in Europe while encouraging it in the US since WWII.

[RainDog]

97. WWII was significant, imo

The experience of the holocaust, the experience of occupation, the experience of failure of so many institutions of power...

The existentialists were expressing that experience. The philosophical outcome of WWII, for those who lived through it as citizens, seems to have led to a conclusion that people have to formulate meaning because the actions of humans are meaningless, in terms of any grand narrative of progress or rationality.

American society was buoyed by the rise in manufacturing b/c of the loss of European industries - it took another war and the next generation to reach that same level of cynicism about the human condition - also the result b/c of the wholesale slaughter of movement leaders in the sixties in the U.S. - RFK and MLK most particularly.

But the continental philosophers, outside of a small group, have never had and don't have the sway over American life that the empiricists did and do to this day.

For all the talk in academia about unstable texts, when it comes time to implement reforms or change - the American view is practical rather than utopian, at least at the level of practice by large institutions.

In any case, it has been my experience that the church serves the function of family unity - weddings, midnight mass on christmas eve, confirmation - the christian democrats that I knew were far more liberal-minded than most democrats here.

I really enjoy your posts. May I ask you to do me a favor? Put a couple of space bar lines between, say every fourth or fifth line so that it's easier to read. thx.

[AlbertCat]

35. The Europeans grasp the whole idea of "common good." We don't.

Fear of COMMUNISM!!!!! (or socialism.... or whatever)

The Red Scare runs deep. (As if the USSR was really communist....by it's classic definition.)

Many don't even think about how all our "socialist" benefits even happen. Interstate highways and public schools and Police and Fire Dept. just appear! Poof! Like god created them!

[liberation]

39. The sad part is that most European social systems were inspired by American developments....

... they still celebrate labor day on its correct day (May), and they do so to commemorate a historic win of American Labor. Their social security systems are far more pervasive and are also inspired by the New Deal. And so are a lot of their ideas.

The sad part is how we have been the ones which allowed our society to be hijacked by these apprentices of fascisti.

Liberals in this country have an amazing legacy, and yet... after the right declared hunting season on them, they are but extinct and ineffective now a days. Truly shameful... such a fall from grace.

[happyslug]

57. The Haymarket "Riot" was not a Labor Victory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair

[liberation]

61. OK

Probably "historic win" was a poor choice of words. None the less labor day around the globe is inspired by actions/achievements of the American labor movement. Which was my main point, as poorly as I may have expressed it.

[Greyhound]

100. Yeah, that's why they have to hide the statue to the murderers. n/t

[Flaneur]

102. And in the US, May 1 is officially celebrated as "Law Day"

How's that for an ironic jab?

[MindandSoul]

8. NO system of health care is perfect or totally free. . .but after having

lived under three different type of nationalized health care (France, Belgium, England. . .and temporarely Australia), I would pick any one of them instead of what we have in the U.S. . . .and I do have coverage!

[JanMichael]

9. You are all anti-Americans!!!!

Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps (if you have no boots then fuck off).

None of that commie pinko euro-nannyism shit will ever work in God loving/fearing/loathing/scardyism North Amerika!!!

[FourScore]

11. Yep. k/r

[Kat45]

12. K&R

This is information people should know.

[Festivito]

14. I've been saying this for thirty years.

And, it's been true for thirty years.

Add the benefits to salaries and then check the percentage against Europe's percentage.

Then shut up. No one wants to hear it.

[Q3JR4]

16. All right, I'm sold.

Where do I sign up?

Q3JR4.

[old mark]

17. European countries generally have higher tax rates on the very rich,

which help provide benefits for the whole country.
I recall a few months ago that a group of rich Germans volunteered to pay more taxes to help their country through hard economic times.

Rich Americans don't care about the US, just about the US dollar.


mark

[Zywiec]

18. The education system is totally different in Europe

The reason the author's siblings are saving tens of thousands of dollars for their children’s college education is they probably aren't in college. In Germany, for example, only 23% of students graduate with the requisite Abitur to even get into a university. This is after their educational future is decided in 5th grade.

While I think college here is very expensive, I like that our children can typically go with just a high school diploma and have flexibility in their major coursework. If you're not performing well by 9 or 10 years of age in Europe, you can forget college.

[ejbrush]

19. And the rest go to a trade school or apprenticeship

Which is still covered by the state and gives them a solid base of trained craftsmen and technicians to keep their entire economy going, not just the banks and medical industry.
College is great, but I think that too many Americans look at it as four more years of high school without thought of real-world opportunities. I know I did.

[comtec]

20. You're leaving out that EVERYONE (else) goes to TRADE SCHOOL

you can bitch about the restrictions about getting into college (a freeper talking point, ironic since i doubt any have graduated college) but you CAN NOT complain that their people are not educated.

EVERYONE goes to a trade school.

Hell here in the Netherlands mandatory public education stops at 14. However most people continue on to higher education and then a trade school.

The government subsidizes education for people who can't afford it but want to learn a trade.
Trades include the IT sector!

It's a bit of a canard that you MUST have a 4-year university degree to be anything in the world.

There are many people who only went to trade school (initially) and did very well in their lives.

People forget that before daddy ray-gun, there were trade schools in the US, that taught actual trade skills needed to run a society!

On-the-job-training was a not a totally strange concept, but you'd generally get trained in a trade school.

So there is limited university (imho they could do with a JC system like we have in the US, but that's another rant), but there is NOT as limited further / trade-related education as there is in the US.... and it's affordable here!

Heald, for example, cost me 20k... for a 2-year degree I would not even accept (essentially, I did it because the euros are seriously anal about formal training)

here... a 2-year program learning IT would be much less than that, esp if I was 16/18 at the time I learned it.

[Zywiec]

23. I didn't know it was a freeper talking point

to mention how few people in Europe are actually able to go to college. Both of my kids did the Abitur track, but we didn't like having to make that decision at such an early age.

I just don't think that 77% of Americans would want to restrict their kids' opportunities by making a decision in the fifth grade.

"Well the world needs ditch diggers too"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dbLfD5Vjq4

[RainDog]

30. but they graduate from high school with a better education than many college students

and their employment opportunities are not limited to ditch digger.

students in the U.S. are also routinely routed into trade school work in high school too.

the only time the U.S. education system prevails over the European one is at the level of PhD programs.

before that, you get more bang for your buck in European schools.

[liberation]

45. Interestingly enough, in some places in the EU they have the problem that they graduate too many

people with college degrees.

Which means that they actually have a surplus in some areas. For example, some countries like Spain graduate too many medical doctors for their demand. Which the exact opposite of our situation: we do not graduate enough doctors too meet our demand (And the shortage is purely artificial). A big complain back in the EU is that they have too many qualified people with degrees for the existing demand. So not everyone who graduates with a degree is guaranteed to be able to use his or her degree in the intended field.

So it can be a sucky system, if you perform mediocrity in college and you have to compete with the top of your class for the limited positions available.

[RainDog]

74. that's a problem in the U.S. too

even in fields that were supposedly among the best to go into.

I went back to school and got my masters in library science. I have a great record while working in the area while in school. I have an excellent academic record and accomplishments between my ugrad and masters degrees (in addition to raising two children and trying to cope with a bipolar ex that nearly destroyed us all.)

I've given up applying for jobs at the moment because it's a waste of my time and resources. Even tho I've been a finalist for jobs, the positions are being frozen. I assume others are getting work but it gets utterly discouraging after a while.

in the meantime, some assholes on DU call you "melodramatic" if this situation bothers you. I would like to see them have two children (one of whom is autistic, a totally hostile ex, no living wage, no insurance... anyway, if I saw the person in particular recently who made this remark to me I would bitch slap her into next week. I hope she read this.)

but I'm sure I won't see her so that's just wishful thinking on my part.

American Universities are set up to let almost anyone attend. A lot of those student don't belong in college (at least at the stage of life they're in... maybe with maturity some would benefit later.)

At the GRADAUTE school level, the level of education in the U.S. that is, beyond doubt, superior to the European Universities overall (obviously there are always exceptions.) Many of the students in the PhD programs are from other countries that have strong math and science programs.

One reason for this is that these schools to not abide religious fundie fools.

Another is that educators are well paid and receive respect from the community.

Another is that intelligence is not seen as a negative, like it is in the U.S. among too many people.

[harmonicon]

119. I agree with you on all but one point.

I moved to the UK - where I live now and want to stay - for a PhD program because NOTHING in the US was came to close to what was offered at my university. It's an extension of the maturity problem. Of all of the doctoral programs I looked at in the US, they were looking for students to treat like children. Here, they treat students like adults, and especially doctoral students. I had years off between my master's degree and coming here. Going back to being treated like an 18 year old wasn't an option.

[RainDog]

130. obviously also at the graduate level there are variations

people go to particular schools to study with particular professors because they share an area of expertise, too.

No doubt the Sorbonne is also at the top of the food chain for certain areas.

I know of people around the world at various institutions who draw students.

the masters program I attended was just ranked as top in the nation. unfortunately, that doesn't mean jack when universities are not filling positions that become vacant b/c they are experiencing budget cuts and hiring freezes.

I feel sorry for the guy who is the head of the last dept where I applied. He is doing his job AND the one they were trying to fill. On salary, of course. Two jobs for the price of one.

only in America.

[harmonicon]

134. not only in America, unfortunately.

The exact same thing is going on in UK higher education. There have been serious budget cuts. My main advisor is head of the department and is obscenely over-worked. They need to hire more part-time staff, but the money isn't there so it goes to the salaried workers. Last year, and probably next year again, part-time teaching was CUT.

I don't know if it's a good or bad thing that it's nation-wide here. Certainly having a somewhat unified system across the country is good, but then all universities have to suffer when there are recessions. This means that there is a greater push to get more paying students through the doors and then that the staff are further over-worked.

The positive thing for the university workers in the UK is that only part-time staff will ever lose their jobs over budget cuts. The American idea of "tenure" doesn't really exist here; anyone with a full-time position is automatically tenured, I suspect partly for these reasons.

[donquijoterocket]

67. plus

As a result of their education system and the continental geographic realities they're usually multi-lingual with a good understanding of cultures other than their own.Given the assaults on the U.S. education system that advantage at the doctoral level might diminish and eventually disappear.

[JDPriestly]

88. Trade school is not really quite the right term.

Many students who don't go to universities go to business schools. They get valuable certificates or degrees in commercial fields and go on to work in that area. We consider a business degree to be a college education. It really isn't in many cases. It is simply commercial training -- training in a sort of trade.

A degree in mathematics, physics, literature, philosophy, medicine, law, etc. is a university degree. A degree in marketing or even art or music is not really a traditional academic degree. In Europe, you might not be considered a university graduate if you had a degree in a field that was not studied at a university.

I don't think I have explained this well, but you understand that Europeans do not have the broad understanding of the purpose of university study that we do.

[DFW]

91. I wish!!

That maybe used to be the case, but my daughters went the Gymnasium route here in the Düsseldorf
school system, and we had more angry evening parents' meetings than I care to remember, as the
standard of education (and the teachers!) was so far below our expectations--and this was at one
of the supposedly "elite" schools that you actually had to apply to be admitted to.

My elder daughter learned more at her semester "abroad" in a Dallas public school than she ever did
at her Gymnasium, and her younger sister was so thrilled with her "year abroad" in the USA that she
decided to punt the German educational system altogether, and graduate from her American high school
and applied (and got in) to a decent college in the USA. She graduates from her American law school
this year and is probably coming back to Germany for no other reason than that there are no job
openings in the USA in her field. She'd rather start at 80,000 euros a year in Germany than wait
on tables in New York. So much for being in the top 5%.

Germany has just as uneven a quality of education to offer as anywhere else, and you can land at a
school that is nore concerned with rules and regulations than it is the curriculum or its students.
The German "Beamten3 system means that teachers are civil servants, unfirable, and with no incentive
whatsoever to be there for their students or show any concern for them. Many are truly good, of course,
as they became teachers out of a sense of dedication, but just as many are not, and they are there for
as long as they can breathe.

There are, of course, many great Gymnasia in Germany, but just going to one is by no means a guarantee
of getting a decent education.

[RainDog]

101. I can't speak for Germany

but my step-daughter got her bac in the Greek and Latin forms in Belgium. she came here to live for a year and attend an American University. She could test out/previous classwork out of most of the fresh/soph curriculum.

She went back to Belgium for the rest of her degree and for a PhD. She does experimental/cognitive psy (in Leuven.)

Her father came here to do his PhD work and stayed. But he works with people that come out of European U's more than American ones b/c that was his original research group. He regularly complains about how poorly American students are prepared for college level work in math and logic, etc... and expect more leniency for their work.

I guess it just depends on individual experiences. My kids went to schools that I thought were just fine. Public schools with kids from all over the world. But I've never been one of those "is my johnny being challenged" parents b/c my kids were already facing challenges that had nothing to do with schoolwork.

I was fortunate when I was a kid b/c Vanderbilt/Peabody decided to make me and some other kids my age guinea pigs and we had lots of opportunities, even tho my parents both came out of the rural south with little educational opportunities for them at the time.

They valued education as a way to improve your life and they passed that along. I honestly think that, overall, that's the most important function a parent provides. Obviously there's more to education beyond that, but that's the foundation, to me.

[liberation]

110. Good luck having your daughter using an American Law Degree in Germany...

... no offense, but that is one of the worst degrees is professional mobility across international boundaries is of any concern. It can be a rather difficult endeavor trying to convalidate some of those degrees (esp. given the differences between the German and American law system).

My experience is the opposite: I did the last 2 years of my high school in the States (moved from Europe as an AF brat), and honestly even in a magnet school in California... the stuff that I was learning in the 11/12 grade here, I had for the most part already seen in what would be the equivalent of the 8/9th grades back in the old country. Of course academic standards vary across EU nations. I ended up graduating as the salutatorian, and I can honestly say it was too much of a breeze and I felt guilty almost (except for English lit, since I have never been good with the written word... I am too much of a scientist/visual person :-( which is something I don't like since I always find myself being jealous of those who can write beautifully). But things like the SATs and the APs were almost brain dead affairs compared with the testing I had to undergo back in the old world.

College education is a completely different story though. And the top Universities in the US have very little matching competition in the world. That being said, when I got my PhD I was the only one with an American passport in my group. And all the volume of scientific/engineering publications involving American citizens is diminishing rapidly. I fear that when the bright foreigners we get to attract start to look elsewhere, we may be in a bit of a pickle. I always thought part of the genius of the US was the ability to recognize and include talent regardless of origin. That gave us a very significant edge...

I get very angry when I hear American kids bitch and moan about University. When I have a bunch of colleagues who had to literally travel half way across the world and invest insane amounts of effort in order to make the trip and being accepted in the same University that is literally in the backyard of the same American kids. There is such wealth of knowledge and expertise in our campuses, and it would be a real shame... if in the end, only foreigners are able to appreciate it.

[DFW]

122. Actually, she is in demand due to it, go figure.

Her specialty is international law and arbitration, and there are several international firms in Germany
looking for bilingual dual citizens with degrees from American law schools who can help them with the
American end of legal work that concerns both countries. She wanted to remain in NY or DC, but the firms
there, it seems, only look to see if you are tops in your class at Harvard or Yale. Whether you are
a functioning human being is a secondary consideration. The German firms soliciting her right now have
stated up front that they expect (!!!) their new hires to take their full 6 weeks vacation per year so
as not to experience burnout early.

If there are any American law firms like that, they don't advertise it.

[Mass]

36. They go to college. a trade school is certainly as good as many of the lower tier US colleges.

[truedelphi]

105. Whereas here in the USA college is "a must have" unless you

Want to flip burgers for the rest of your life.

But even with college, many don't get away from dead end jobs. And they cannot think straight. And they have enormous amounts of debt to pay for that "education."

I had one friend who spent the first two years of her college career in a remedial math course program, where she learned what most people would learn by tenth grade.

[marmar]

22. Seems that you left out some inconvenient facts.

[RainDog]

29. a high school graduate has the equivalent of a sophmore year in college education

people in Europe graduate from high school after learning at least one other language.

their course work in high school is what students in the U.S. get from their first two years of college (and if you come to the U.S. to study with a licensiate (the american equivalent of an undergrad degree) you are bumped into a PhD program as someone who already has a masters degree.

one reason for this is that people do not have to fight with the religious right over education in science, with anti-immigrant haters over language, there are no sports programs in the schools (they're in clubs) and teachers are RESPECTED AND WELL PAID.

with a high school diploma, someone can become a bank teller, for instance, and make enough money to buy a house.

...just like here. LOL.

[Mass]

34. In addition, college is basically free for most of these countries.

So, even if they go to college, they dont get ruined. And you can go to college if you are not performing well at 0-10. It has been like that for years.

Also, what is the percent of kids going to college in the USA. If you factor those kids who drop out of high school without a HS diploma, I suspect it is not that different than in Europe.

Also, in Germany, number of kids leaving without any school leaving certificate <8.3%>)

Here are the stats for the US. As you can see, at least as many kids leave school with a high school diploma in the US than in Germany.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/edu_hig_sch_dip_or_hig_by_per-high-school-diploma-higher-percentage

[liberation]

42. Yes and no...

... first off Public College in most EU is free (or nearly free if you can prove lack of financial resources). Also they have a much better and accesible adult education network. Again, many EU members have public adult colleges, where people can get a college degree part time. And there is an actual distance learning network to support it.

There is also the recognition that not everybody is apt to go to college, and trades are not as disrespected as they are over here. In Germany for example, professional workers are as stemmed as engineers. Some people are better at learning, and others are better at doing. And both are fundamental. I have colleagues working as industrial/control engineers for European firms, and they all say unanimously that they have a fantastic time when they try to replicate the same production quality when they move production lines over to the states. A big chunk of their issues steams from the immense differences in training/education/capabilities between American and European trade workers. I was also astounded to learn, that in many EU states it is mandatory by law to have not just union representatives on each factory... but in many cases multiple unions have different representatives on the same factory Unions over there are associated with political parties/platforms not that just on a trade-basis. So there is a socialist-party union, a communist-party union, etc. And each of those unions have different subbranches for the trade/industry at hand: i.e. in the average auto factory in the EU, there will be a representative of the auto worker's socialist union, another one for the auto worker's communist union, etc.

Another thing I found interesting and fascinated, are some of the co-ops in the EU. They have some very large and successful worker owned corporations (like Mondragon in Spain), which can compete very well in the market place.

That being said, the college education in the USA is excellent. Albeit there is a lack of uniformity in standards (which may be a good/bad thing). However, the K-12 system is appalling in comparison to many places in the world. Furthermore, trades are fairly unregulated and they follow a "wild west" approach, which is one of the main reasons why American labor has a fantastic hard time competing world wide quality-wise. Which is a real shame, since American labor has been forced to be the most productive in the world.

However, not everything is perfect in the EU. Their systems are also not as elastic as ours, and companies complain that they have a harder time competing because of the reduced freedom in abusing and using labor at will.

[dbmk]

78. So not true.

"If you're not performing well by 9 or 10 years of age in Europe, you can forget college"

As a european, let me tell you: B...S...!

The Germans might be a bit special - but in general that statement is failed speculation.

[Zywiec]

89. What country do you live in?

My kids went through the German education system and in fifth grade is where the teachers assessed the children to see if they went to Realschule, Hochschule, or Abitur.

What universities in Europe are you speaking about where anyone can just apply to get in like most US schools.

Thanks.

[reggie the dog]

106. How long ago was that?

France had a system which sperated kids in fifth grade but it was replaced about thirty years ago.

[Zywiec]

113. 6 years ago. n/t

[dbmk]

108. Denmark

And as I say, the Germans might be different - but from what I know of the our school system and in Europe in general its your grades/tests/evaluations in your final year of grade school that decides what your options are.

And your grades through high school/business school have an impact on your options regarding university or the like - but thats mostly as spots are limited in different majors(as you would call it) due to demand.

If you have the grades you can just apply to get in. Doesn't quite mean "anyone". But if you have an aptitude for the subject, I would be very surprised if you could not muster the needed grades.

[Zywiec]

115. "Europe in general its your grades/tests/evaluations in your final year of grade school

that decides what your options are."

My point all along is as you restate, in Europe you need to do well when you're younger (grade school) to be provided the most opportunities.

In America I don't think it's as restrictive and that's what I prefer.

Are you in Copenhagen?

[dbmk]

132. Don't you need to do well in the US as well?

Don't you need SAT scores or the like to get into colleges?

There is always an option to take courses later to improve on whats missing - or get in on class 2 merits(real life experience/work).

If you can prove you have the required aptitude through extra courses or experience(life/work) for the major, compared to other applicants if spaces are limited - university is not ruled out for you, even if you did not make the case in grade school.

Definately not as restrictive as the monetary obstacles I see in the US system.

And yes, Copenhagen - more or less. Suburbs.

[comtec]

135. In the US we have JC, 2-year college

which i think is confusing to some people.
Universities are fucking HARD to get into unless you have some kind of back door in (football)
I went to a JC - actually #1 in CA and #5 in the US (in 95 anyway lol) DVC.
IT had a massive range of courses and assorted classes.
I had a great time, even tho I never moved on to a proper 4-year (long story).
I learned a great deal and evolved as a person.

JCs are required to take all comers.
Back before ray-gun and prop 13 DESTROYED public education in california JC was free.
now they charge upwards of 23 dollar a unit (most classes being 3 units)

I think Europe needs some thing like the JC system to be honest.
it's still university level work (mostly) but anyone can go, and older people (like me now ><) are encouraged to go back to school to improve their skills or just learn something new (LOVE the language courses at DVC)

I always felt like I was treated as an adult, which helped me WANT to learn.

The problem, as I see it here, is that after you hit 25, it is expected that your learning cycle is done!
I dislike that. I want to continue my education till im dead.
But I don't really see a place for that here (holland)

[RainDog]

131. one such story

when my ex was in elementary school, his teacher told his parents he might be a decent plumber. maybe.

he wasn't shunted into trade school from elementary school b/c of this teacher's evaluation, however.

he went on to study mathematics as an ugrad and theory in another area related to math as a PhD candidate.

so, 35 years ago this idea wasn't true - he didn't get shut out of education b/c of one teacher in 5th grade.

[reggie the dog]

104. Europe is not uniform. Here in France you get into college with a

high school diploma, nearly 75% of people being of high school age during the past 30 years are elligible to go to the university.

[Selatius]

21. Europeans get more bang for their buck. They only got that because they FOUGHT for them.

The powerful only understand one thing and one thing only: Force. People, when organized together, are a force to be reckoned with. The people have been brainwashed into forgetting that with daily spoonfuls of "rugged individualism" and other propaganda meant to turn them onto materialism. This was only possible with consolidation of the news media and the invention of modern, advanced marketing techniques designed to generate a new want or demand for some superfluous product or service by making people who lack such a service or object feel less or inferior to those that do.

The downfall of the US came with the idea that private cash can have a role in public elections. That was always the key to suspending or weakening anti-trust laws and other obstacles to establishing a corporate oligarchy.

[Odin2005]

24. I've been saying this to people for a while.

[WCGreen]

26. Yep, we are the swinging dick country...

Think with our crotch and fuck everything else...

The rest of the world recognizes this and plays us for a sap. They know that without our navy and rapid response teams, world trade would be chaotic at best and a lot more expensive. That's why they are propping us up by buying what they know will someday be devalued bonds.

I figure until oil becomes too expensive to use is when the whole thing comes apart.

It's a vicious cycle that can only end in economic calamity.

I don't see any way out of this.

A new dark age will set in but it won't be as long or as dark as the last but it will be brutal and the strong will defiantly inherit the earth. The rest of us, we'll be left with the wind.

Rome fell because they lost the will and ability to defend their borders. When that happened, well the Barbarians were at the gate, the Mongols were sweeping across the steppes and brutality was the norm.

History does repeat itself.

[AlbertCat]

41. A new dark age will set in ... the strong will inherit the Earth...

Well... the last Dark Age didn't involve "the Earth". I think Asia was doing just fine while Europe sank. Hmmmmm....

[WCGreen]

83. I think it will be the whole world this time...

Just the fact that cheap energy will be no more will do a lot to suppress the economies no matter what marvels the experts predict.

[Uncle Joe]

92. I believe that's because the United States as nation has the perspective of adolescence,

lots of energy, power and strength but somewhat clueless on the wisest way to use it.

The European Nations are fully matured from their relatively long national/international historical experiences and are more secure in their self-knowledge, allowing them to tap the best from both worlds capitalism and socialism without so much paranoia.

Someone once said something to the effect of, My parents became much smarter as I aged.

I believe the U.S. would be wise to swallow our pride and take advantage of the best lessons other nations; have already learned and start implementing that knowledge to good practical use here at home, instead of pretending like we have all the answers or that we can't change.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. The days when large numbers of Europeans wanted to emigrate to the U.S.

are long over.

The central part of Lake Street (a street that runs the full length of the city east to west) in Minneapolis used to be all Scandinavian. The only remnant of that presence is ONE Scandinavian import store--surrounded by stores serving Latino and Somali immigrants. St. Paul makes a big deal of its Irish heritage, but its largest immigrant community is Southeast Asian.

[liberation]

48. The sad part is that a lot of the things the Europeans admired of our society...

... have been turned into items of "shame" by the non-strop right wing propaganda.

It is a shame that our country let them get away with it. Most of the social networks in Europe, are in a varying degree inspired by the American New Deal. I am always fascinated, when I hear some European friends/family wonder whatever happened to this country. They really used to view us with awe and stem, as a compassionate liberal and progressive society which ultimately had a good track record of doing the right thing. The opinion of this country, however, has changed dramatically during the last decade... and that is really depressing/sad. When you witness people's awe of our country, turn into fear of us.

[tilsammans]

87. Now they laugh at us . . .

. . . and as a country, we deserve it. :rant:

[DesertDiamond]

40. Dang! No Facebook share button! I wish everyone would include those.

Well, in any case, I am definitely sharing this with our Facebook friends.

[Hello_Kitty]

46. K and R. eom

[kctim]

49. Yep, it is SOOOOO great over there

that people sit and whine about how we need to be just like them, instead of moving over there and living the "good" life.

[LanternWaste]

52. I imagine many people

I imagine many people love their own county to such a degree as to work for and affect positive changes (the "good" life as you put it) here rather than simply move away...

[liberation]

59. Apparently loving one's country enough to try to better it and address its problems...

... is tantamount to hating it.

The logical dissonance of the conservatives in this country is glorious as it is deafening.

[Fleshdancer]

55. You can't just fly over there and decide to call it home. n/t

[kctim]

60. That can't be true

Unlike the US, such a paradise would surely welcome any and all immigrants with open arms at anytime. I find it very hard to believe you can't do that, since their countries are so much more diverse than our own country.

[LanternWaste]

66. I imagine...

I imagine you find many things very hard to believe when you conflate the laws of one country with those of another... regardless of their relevance to the topic at hand.

[kctim]

71. Bingo

The laws of two very different countrys cannot be combined without taking into account how, where and why those countrys differ. Europeans have been conditioned and are use to being dependent on their government, whereas Americans have ALWAYS had a more individualist frame of mind.
Working to become more like them, as you first said, is fine. But sitting around and whining about how bad one has it and how good they have it, ignores the fact that their way of life is very different from our own and that one must be willing to give up alot of what they now have in order to become them.

[LanternWaste]

77. Not so much Bingo...

And yet, some people prefer one country and others may prefer another country.

I see that less as whining and more of a contrast/compare-when-relevant so that we may better examine those aspects of other governments and other cultures which are more effective or efficient or more just than our own, and then see about applying them.




Although I can guess why calling it "whining" would assuage the desire for a melodramatic and visceral need people sometimes have...

[harmonicon]

121. You've never left the US, have you?

That talking points that you are spouting are patently false. This crap about a person's "frame of mind" is ridiculous. People are individuals everyone you go. I don't think Europeans have been "conditioned" to being "dependent" on their governments. Rather they actually DEMAND that they receive services for the taxes that they pay. They also demand that their representative governments actually represent them!! The only way that the way of life for Americans is different from that of Europeans is that Americans get fucked in the ass by their government every fucking day with nothing but the stretch marks to show for it. Any European government that tries that gets booted out of power ASAP by THE PEOPLE. What, exactly, do you think people in the US would be giving up by adopting governments more like those in Europe? Daily ass-rape?! Name one fucking thing that would be given up.

[RainDog]

76. well, that's probably

because you've already revealed a large level of stupidity.

I've lived in w. Europe and in the U.S. Life is better for people there. Working people. Middle class people.

I would move there again if I could.

I don't have hope anymore for this nation considering the level of ignorance - like that you have demonstrated here.

[kctim]

82. I have?

Then you should have no problem in pointing out such stupidity. That is, unless you are making such a claim only because I dare to disagree with your opinion.

I too have lived in Europe and the US. Life is better for SOME people there and it is better for some people here. Why? Because people value different things.

I have no desire to ever live there again, but, as I stated below, if I had to make a choice, it would be Iceland.

While you may no longer have any hope for our nation, I do. Despite the level of arrogance that is demonstrated here.

[RainDog]

98. I apologize to you.

I misread what you wrote earlier and didn't read your other posts before I went off.

I am sorry.

I am also a little too highly strung some days and the last few have been among them. so, again, apologies.

Hope you can keep that hope. someone needs to maintain it.

[liberation]

56. Riiiight

LOL. Is that the new and improved "America, love or leave it" that was hurled at the peace nicks during the past decade?

[kctim]

62. Not even close

its more like riding everywhere in a maxed out limo while bitching about how great the Prius drivers have it.

[liberation]

63. Preparing for the Olympics in Intellectual Dishonesty, I see.

Keep training. LOL.

[bullwinkle428]

58. The "love it or leave it" talking point? Really, Tim...now you're

just getting lazy.

[kctim]

68. It wasn't love it or leave

and Lantern seems to be the only one willing to address what was actually said rather than what one wants to have been said.

[LanternWaste]

80. No... I'm not.

No... I'm not. I'm saying (and reading) precisely the same things as are the rest of yours fans. Don't confuse one being polite with one who may agree...

[kctim]

93. That's too bad

You're first comment seemed to grasp the simple point I made, being that people believe it is so great over there, just not enough to actually live there. I took you're point, that perhaps some people don't because they want to work towards it here, as valid and left room for more thought.

And, fwiw, I didn't say you agreed with me, but that you did not jump to conclusions based on what you wanted me to have said, but instead replied to what was actually said.

[SocialistLez]

64. If I had the money...

I'd gladly move.

Some days it seems so hopeless to try to fight for better in the U.S.

[kctim]

72. Valid point

even though I never said love it or leave it.

I would start with an 'extended stay' kind of visit first before deciding to make it perm. I have spent almost 10 years of my life in Europe and the only country I would even dream about moving to is Iceland. But that is just my opinion.

[marmar]

81. I don't know if your post is extraordinarily intellectually dishonest.....

.... or just childishly stupid.

[harmonicon]

120. I moved. It's awesome (nt)

[Rambis]

50. Daycare and health insurance cost us 18,642 a year

12,000 for daycare 2 kids
6,420 a year out of pocket for health insurance as our employer picks up 2/3 rds of it.
I could use that money to stimulate the economy in many ways like new electric car etc.

[fascisthunter]

51. oh, oh... this will piss off the anti-taxers

what will they do now?

:nopity:

[KittyWampus]

53. Hello-the article does in fact say Europeans DO pay high taxes compared to America

BUT BUT BUT they get more benefits as taxpayers that help with everyday life.

And while I appreciate the need to bring up subsidies to business- that is tangental to the assertion made.

[CLANG]

65. Move along teabaggers, nothing to see here...

:eyes: :puke:

[unpossibles]

69. shocking

not. I've often argued a similar point, but this piece sums it up better than I can so thanks for the link!

[inna]

70. K&R and thanks for this.

[swilton]

73. But, but, but................

We have the best offense er, uh defense that money can buy!:puke:

[pnorman]

75. K & R!

Not just for the OP, but the insightful discussion it generated.

[SoCalDem]

79. Yes.. It;s NOT about what you PAY..it's what you GET for your money

We pay A LOT..and get very little .

[colsohlibgal]

84. Sign Me Up

Even with a bit more in taxes. If Health Care (all of it) and college for kids and all the other things come with it I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want that - except the people who want to be zillionaires.

[Jennicut]

86. We get less for what we pay.

[Stumbler]

90. I've said it before & I'll say it again...

I've never met a European nor a Canadian that would willingly trade their health care system for our tax structure.

Instead of access to health care and low or no college tuition rates, my taxes fund wars that I think never should've been started, while bailing businesses that never should've existed...

[DissedByBush]

94. A modest amount?

Sorry, not quite. My wife was working under the German system with the state AOK insurance, and they pulled a huge amount relative to the size of her paycheck, more than I pay under my rather (by American standards) good health insurance here.

But in return, we saw not one bill for the birth of our kids or their doctor and dental visits.

The co-pays, un-covered treatments, deductibles, my percentage and dental limits would have turned that into thousands out of pocket.

[DirkGently]

95. "The co-pays, un-covered treatments, deductibles ...

my percentage and dental limits would have turned that into thousands out of pocket."

Right. So I think the OP is challenging what a "modest amount" really means. Is a bigger tax payment really bigger if it literally saves you money?

Is there a comprehensive study out there anywhere, showing whether more "socialist" systems like Europe provide more, per dollar, than our ad hoc, individuals-pay-for-most-things-themselves system. I know we pay the most for healthcare, so that's that. Childcare? Education?

It would be nice if we could all engage in a frank examination of which systems actually work in which specific ways and areas, rather than this all-or-nothing ideological propaganda circus we get every time.

[DissedByBush]

123. Of course their system flirted with bankruptcy

They were paying for everything, even over the counter meds.

They had to scale back the benefits several years ago because the system was about to go bankrupt.

In general we can't just say "Theirs works, use it."

Why is simple: we are not them.

But we could learn a lesson or two, and see what pitfalls to avoid in our own system.

"I know we pay the most for healthcare, so that's that. Childcare? Education? "

Education is a funny one I posted about a while back. Germany does have free university for everyone *who qualifies*. Your grades aren't good enough, you don't go to university, that's it. All else go to trade school.

Given the demographics of grades in this country, I think you see where the claims of "racist" would come from. There's no affirmative action, it goes on your aptitude alone. They pay a LOT for their system and can't afford to waste money on unqualified students. The lawsuits would tear down such a system here before it started.

It also wouldn't work for the other end. You don't get into university just because you're rich either. There'd be resistance from that side.

[ihavenobias]

96. Huge K & R, I'm going to invite him on the show when Cenk gets back.

This is exactly what I've been thinking for so long, and I wish Michael Moore had thought to include such numbers in Sicko to show that we pay MORE and get LESS.

[Greyhound]

99. Been telling people this for decades, you're getting robbed and you think

you got a deal. Don't even start looking into how heavy the subsidy for the parasites is for the work you do.

Waddaya gonna do? People want to feel good about their lives and decisions and they go to great lengths to maintain that belief.
:shrug:

[DuaneBidoux]

112. I believe this is a considerably more complex issue than painted by this article.

I am not saying that this is not in general true but he has left out a number of issues that I believe are important.

I lived and worked in France for several years and if I had my choice I would go back in a heartbeat. For a variety of reasons beyond taxes I found the quality of life generally to be higher. It was more relaxed and every single thing done in life is not about the acquisition of "more." One of my favorite things of all was that just because a product didn't sell in mass quantity and make tons of money did not mean a product you liked would disappear from store shelves after 10 months. There isn't this pressure at work to spin the little wheels faster and faster just to keep your job (and then you get no reward for the resulting increase in productivity here).

But, taxes are high. It's just that they're high here to. Here it is state and local taxes that eat one alive. (In Houston where I live my $280,000 home is taxed at $9500 a year). And, I do believe to a large extent that European taxes are more regressive. I speak especially of VAT which has to be the single most regressive tax I have ever seen. Ironically, this cuts down on the kind of consumption I don't think is really good for the country and leads to a very high savings rate (I think it is like 10% of gross personal income for the French). The French are satisfied with one dvd player in one room, not one in every room.

Government consumption as a percentage of gdp is about 48%, which, anyway you measure it is fairly large. However, as the author points out, they don't have so many hidden taxes and they also don't, as he does not point out, have nearly as many vertical layers of government (e.g., city, county, state, federal) and what local government there is is for the largest part funded federally--thus we probably come close to the same once you have added all the layers up.

All this comes at a certain price in growth and flexibility, but unlike what the wingnuts portray here, it is a price they wish to pay. I have known a number of Europeans who live and work here, and contrary to what the right wing says, most are only to eager to go back after several years.

[Rozlee]

118. Now, that's what I'm sayin'

When Bush came into office, the first thing he did was cut funding to the states. This left every state in the union scrambling for funds. I hear ya about home taxes here in Texas. I live in the Hill country. Our $327,000 home (thank the FSM, paid for and not underwater) used to be pretty high too until I got off paying home taxes due to 100% veteran's disablity. And guess what? Texas has the MOST regressive property tax system in the states. I have relatives that own small homes under $100,000 in modest parts of San Antonio that are paying 38% more in home taxes comparatively. Thank Prick Perry for that. And for so many schools having to close down and be consolidated because he and his enabling predecessor made it happen. Higher sales taxes, too. We don't have a state tax, but other states do. And don't get me started on the municipalities and the use of police ticketing and fines to get money for strapped towns. It just goes on and on. From the state to the county to the municipal. Everyone's got their hand out.

[DuaneBidoux]

125. I'm actually starting to get a glimmer of hope for the gov's race in Nov.

I've seen two trucks owned by what I know to be fairly conservative voters (Not necessarily Republicans) who have Bill White stickers on their vehicles. It is obviously anecdotal, and I do live in Houston which, like all the other major cities in Texas is blue (not to mention that White was our mayor). But I think Perry and all his comments about seceding and his hypocrisy in taking stimulus funds is going to be used very well by White.

[bulloney]

114. I can live with paying higher taxes if it means a better quality of life, as opposed to

the U.S. way of life, where a bunch of idiots with a phalanx complex send trillions of dollars down the military rathole so that these idiots can compensate for their lack of genitalia with lots of big guns.

Better schools, more affordable college, better health care, a developed public transportation system...what's there not to like?

[DuaneBidoux]

126. Quality of life comes in many ways.

The French have two hours for lunch and it has always been a big thing (because the kids are at school) to rush home and have some fun with your spouse. I've always believed this is at least one element in marriages that makes mmarriages more stable than Americans.

In most French towns you dont' need a car. There are metros and buses and in the village my Father-in-law lived in near Toulouse there was a baker, a grocer, a butcher, a banker, a pharmacy, and pattesrie, two clothes stores and the post office, anf s public libaray all within easy walking distance of his house. Of course all that wasn't done without some planning (read solialism if you are a Republican).

However I will disagree with one thing: in general their universities, except for a few, do not approach ours. I think this is from a purely cultural difference--they do question authority less than we do and so questioning authority and thinking outside the box is not something you see a lot in European school.

[naaman fletcher]

124. affordable housing in Europe?

This is a great article, but affordable housing? Come on. I have lived in Europe.. most 27 year olds I knew were still living with their parents because there was no affordable housing. Except on the coasts, housing in the US is cheap cheap cheap for places larger than what many rich europeans live in.

[DuaneBidoux]

128. Like the states it is location location location,

I had a cousin move out to eastern france and buy a small house in a village (oh yea' now how do me make a living!) It cost them $12,000 roughly> He was in the military so he had periods gone for long months and then he would get a number of months off and it worked pretty well.

On the other hand I have a cousin and his girl friend, who have a baby, who live in a tiny little two bedroom apartment in Paris. A double bed(no not full or king) will barely fit in either room and thre is one bathroom. The sq. ft. is about 1200 and they paid over 400,000 Euro. And because they had conservative grandparents who handed down money from both sides they didn't take out a mortgage, they paid cash.

[Beartracks]

129. Wow. Makes you contemplate what "freedom" means.

With so much economic fear and insecurity built into the American "system," it's a wonder anyone can make the claim that Americans are enjoying "more freedom" than Europeans. The European model sounds like it offers citizens greater control over the things that matter in their lives, because so many of the basic needs are securely offered as a support system. Sort of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs -- with the basic stuff covered, you're MUCH free-er to move into the higher realms of consciousness, productivity, etc. If you are a SLAVE to your economic system -- putting your baby in daycare because you HAVE to go back to work too soon, overpaying for insurance that STILL leaves you with so many medical bills you HAVE to declare bankruptcy, working two jobs and spending less time with family because you HAVE to pay all those hidden and not-so-hidden costs -- then you are not FREE.

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[Blue_Tires]

133. ttt

[Blue_Tires]

136. ttt