If you are working class, You'll go to bed at night after HCR the same way you did before HCR:

[Political Heretic]

...praying to god that you never get really sick. Since there's nothing to address the overall cost of care.

So if you make median income, you get a subsidy bringing your out of pocket annual cost for premium down to about $5,500 (taken from Keiser Foundation's subsidy calculator, and assumes the "silver" or mid-range plan option.) Not exactly chump change.

Then, you have the cost of your deductible, say $1,000. Could be less, could be more, but I've payed $1,000 before when I once had insurance through and employer and its common, so let's use it for example.

Now, say you have a year were you need serious health care. You have tests, hospitalization, surgery, and physical therapy to follow. You out of pocket expenses don't cap until over $10,000. Technically you are on the hook for more than that, since the Senate bill raise the cap threshold to a little over $10,000 up from what House version suggested as the cap. But I don't remember the exact number, so let's use the lower House one just to be safe - 10,000.

At a 80/20 insurance split, that cap is easy to reach when you need serious care.

So, in this year you are at approximately $16,500 in out of pocket medical costs making $45,000 a year (this is all calculated using that near-median income figure.) For many if not most families, that's bankrupting. If that would have happened to me when I still was living in my own home, it would have put me on the street.

Here we are, the "greatest" country in the world, and after this year of pissing and moaning about health care - we get insurance mandates to by shitty private insurance that doesn't address cost of care and leaves working class families on the hook beyond what they can afford if they ever get really sick.

So after this "reform" we have the 46 million uninsured Americans still praying the same prayer they prayed before health care: Dear God, please don't let me or anyone in my family ever get seriously sick. Because if we ever have to access health care for anything other than a cold or a check-up, it will break us.

Meanwhile - Japan, Germany, United Kingdom, France, Italy, Canada, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Ireland, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland are all guaranteeing their citizens health care for free or drastically reduced costs.

USA! USA! USA! :eyes:

I'm just curious if it ever turns your stomach, you who use the "46 million uninsured" for your political talking point while selling a bill that leaves them as fucked as they ever were.

Just curious about that one...

Full disclosure: I am uninsured, low-income

[eridani]

1. 80/20 is bad enough. The lowest level, 60/40 is a lot worse

Bad enough to make it much harder for paying for ongoing expenses, that's for sure.

[Political Heretic]

3. Yes. But I was trying to be very generous with all my assumptions.

[Oregone]

17. I never saw anything indicating 60/40. Could you provide a link

If so, thats beyond sickening. Thats not health insurance.

[Cleobulus]

42. Look up the senate bronze plan. n/t

[inna]

44. 60/40 is the new "standard", acc. to both Senate Bill and Obama's proposal:

Benefit Design

Essential benefits package
• Create an essential health benefits package
that provides a comprehensive set of services,
covers at least 60% of the actuarial value
of the covered benefits, limits annual costsharing
to the current law HSA limits ($5,950/
individual and $11,900/family in 2010), and is
not more extensive than the typical employer
plan. Require the Secretary to define and
annually update the benefit package through
a transparent and public process. (Effective
January 1, 2014)

• Create four benefit categories of plans plus
a separate catastrophic plan to be offered
through the Exchange, and in the individual
and small group markets:

–Bronze plan represents minimum creditable
coverage and provides the essential health
benefits, cover 60% of the benefit costs of the
plan, with an out-of-pocket limit equal to the
Health Savings Account (HSA) current law
limit ($5,950 for individuals and $11,900 for
families in 2010);

– Silver plan provides the essential health
benefits, covers 70% of the benefit costs of
the plan, with the HSA out-of-pocket limits;

– Gold plan provides the essential health
benefits, covers 80% of the benefit costs of
the plan, with the HSA out-of-pocket limits;

– Platinum plan provides the essential health
benefits, covers 90% of the benefit costs of
the plan, with the HSA out-of-pocket limits;

– Catastrophic plan available to those up to
age 30 or to those who are exempt from the
mandate to purchase coverage and provides
catastrophic coverage only with the coverage
level set at the HSA current law levels except
that prevention benefits and coverage for
three primary care visits would be exempt
from the deductible. This plan is only
available in the individual market.

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/housesenatebill_final.pdf

[Oregone]

49. Wow

60% actuarial isn't insurance. Its a scam

[inna]

53. Actually, this is a rarely mentioned but an extremely harmful thing about the

Senate/Obama plan - the inevitable result will be worsening and erosion of employer-provided benefits and shifting towards "individual responsibility" (Republican dream, isn't it?).

For example, currently an average employer-sponsored plan has an actuarial value of 80-85%. All analyses indicate that the absolute majority of employers will dramatically cut down on benefits (to 60-70%) or drop them altogether, and the financial burden will be placed on individuals and families. Make no mistake - dramatic worsening or even elimination of current employer-based benefits is a FEATURE, not a bug of the HCD (for Health Care Deform, aka Insurance and Pharma Profit Protection Act, aka the Senate/Obama plan).

[kenny blankenship]

69. It must have been one of the dreams Obama's father had

"every man for himself!" It just seemed so unlikely that Reagan was his dad that I never even considered the possibility before I voted for him.

[WinkyDink]

142. Irony alert: Reagan's REAL son Ron is a bona fide Liberal.

[Skittles]

2. I agree

[FrenchieCat]

4. I heard Sweden is a nice place to live.......

[Political Heretic]

5. (truce flag, for off-topic comment:) I dream of retiring to New Zealand...

That would be my choice over Sweden I think. I can't quite explain why I feel so strongly pulled to that place.

That dream seems pretty far-fetched. For one thing, I don't think I'll be making any sort of money to ever fully retire, doing what I want to be doing. For another, I wouldn't know where to being even thinking about the process of emigrating to another country...

But I do love the dream. :)



Okay, back to disagreeing on everything...

[FrenchieCat]

6. Hey it's ok....I've got one likening HCR to Lynching.......

and another one basically going with the concentration camps angle. I had to remind that last one that he must be talking about those Death Panels...... :shrug:

-----------
(split screen)
Of course, I can always retire to France....
Although I'd rather stay here.

[JDPriestly]

139. France is a great choice at least when it comes to health care and food.

[paulsby]

12. the surf in sweden SUCKs

that's why

[green917]

101. It's really difficult to emigrate to NZ

My wife and I looked into moving to New Zealand last year but, you have to have skill in a career field that they have need in order to get approval to emigrate there. It's too popular a place to live because it's gorgeous, liberal, safe, and a generally very equitable place to live.

[Lorien]

111. Yep, I looked into it too. If you're self employed they still insist that you arrive

with 500k, minimum.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

107. The more I learn about NZ, the more it seems like this magical paradise which can't be real.

I not only dream of living there, I intend to go there and never come back. HCR was my last hope for this nation. I truly, deeply believed that Obama was the real deal. He would finally deliver us out of the wilderness of corporate control to the promised land of even a skeletal social safety net, some small sliver of those rights and services the other industrialized nations demand for themselves as self-respecting free citizens of a democratic state. But it was not to be. As always, the clear will of the people is drowned out by business interests. America is a sick nation, and it appears to be unable to heal itself. I had some faint glimmer of hope with this so-called "reform," but it seems clear now that America is unable to address even haphazardly the problems that it faces. That is the definition of a failed state, and a failed state is not a place one should live. Once I have the means, I'm gone.

[Lorien]

110. I'd move to Middle Earth in a heartbeat if I could afford to do so. nt

[glowing]

14. Many of us would love to be able to leave and live in a saner, kinder country...

However, it is much harder to get into these countries with their immigration standards and its not easy to move an entire continent.. However, if I were not married, I would be vacationing every year in Canada until I found myself a hubby and health care by proxy.

[pattmarty]

57. Canada is too.

[Skidmore]

7. Instead of freaking whining, get out there and start working for the

next level of reform. Jeezus. Or, do you think everyone should just sit back and not address anything in HCR further?

[Oregone]

19. Much of the energy behind reform will be dead

Everyone will be covered (whatever that really means)

Some people will have their health costs shifted with subsidies (but they don't go away)

The suffering, financial strain, and repression on social mobility will be written off as "exceptions"

[Skidmore]

24. It will die if you let it die.

What a defeatist attitude. I'm so grateful that people didn't lay down and roll over when it came to the early fights for civil rights.

[Oregone]

25. I don't matter. I'm in the sit down and shut the fuck up corner, with a dunce cap on

And Dennis is using the only stool to yell at the rest of us, the bastard.


People who actually care about policy and its effect on the people have been marginalized as merely votes to be gathered at election time. Their opinions do not matter. Their voices are not important. Their presence is inconvenient.


Fuck that. I don't matter. At least I understand that and have alternatives. Ill let you be a brave soldier and try and rally the troops. I got shit to do.

[Skidmore]

26. I guess I'm not understanding where you are on the legislation at hand.

I support its passage, because nothing else is coming down the pike and we need to do something now while we can. Waiting for the perfect is a fruitless endeavor and accomplishes nothing. I'm willing to go with what we can get and continue to work for social and economic justice. Join me if you like, or sit in the corner, if you will.

[Oregone]

29. It you needed a "start", you could of picked one a bit more in favor of the people...

And one that actually has a map going forward to define a direction. This bill is actually a complete repudiation of egalitarianism and socialism. Multi-tiered private insurance that creates a diproportional burden upon the poor when they use it is no sound starting point. And by rejecting a foundation built upon equality and the promotion of social mobility, it doesn't have a whole lot of promise to suddenly morph into some socialistic, fair solution (it actually codifies capitalistic private insurers, which cost a fortune).

Every person who mentions fixing it and how this is a start ignores the idealogical framework this bill is built upon (the Third Way) and that which real universal healthcare systems are built upon. The are absolutely contradictory.

The entire idea that the US cannot wait (when a simple bill could be drafted by a novice in a few hours time), doesn't quite mesh with the fact that much of this bill doesn't kick in immediately at all. Its just a talking point. Its a way to ignore what a crappy directionless starting point this really is, and scare people into lining up behind it.

The entire "debate" was a sham. This was the plan Hillary would of came up with, which is just a reinvention of the Romney plan, which was just a reworking of the Nixon plan. Its already been decided, by nameless people in the background, that in order to sustain an expensive and unsustainable industry, this model of mandated & subsidized reform would be implemented when the timing was correct.

Just as Kennedy said about the NHIPA: "elements of Administration's proposal appear to have originated in the insurance industry itself"

Ill enjoy my corner. Its no big deal. Im "covered" and content with my situation, but beyond sad for the American people.

[depakid]

106. That post deserves a rec...

I've come to the conclusion the vast majority of people in the states have lost the ability to think abstractly or grasp basic concepts or principles behind public policy.

How on earth anyone can look at what this this legislation does as some sort of "starting point" or "foundation" that aims to improve the root causes of the problem(s) is beyond me.

Maybe its a failure of the educational system- maybe it's too much American TV. I don't know- like you, I'm "covered" and content with my situation, but beyond sad for the American people.

Look for this type of dealmaking to continue with financial regulation and any new labor laws that are "on the table."

[liberation]

85. Dude, you can't have it both ways

You basically are asking people to subsume their concerns regarding this piece of shit bill, in order for your team to score a cheap political point. And at the same time you want us to work hard to keep the pressure in the near future in order to mend the same piece of shit bill you wanted passed ASAP.

The entitlement level is such, that some of you can really put forth such a request with a straight face. Basically we have to shut up to gain a cheap political "victory" and then work hard to fix the same thing we were complaining about from the get go. Such level of logical dissonance is counterproductive to the extreme.


Here is a concept: why don't we fight for a bill which is worth enabling from the get go? I know, that makes too much sense... right?

[pattmarty]

61. If civil rights was handled this way, we would still have segregation.........

...........So much for your analogy.

[sabrina 1]

95. Isn't that what you're asking everyone to do now? To just 'stfu'

because there's no hope left to get a PO into the reconciliation bill?

You are free to give up on that and wait another ten years before this issue even comes up again, but some of us intend to keep calling and talking and doing whatever we can until there is no more hope of getting them to listen.

Which reminds me, I have a few calls to make ~

[pattmarty]

58. As I read the "plan", everyone WILL NOT be covered...................

........I have heard 15 mil or 30 mil, but the one thing I have definitely heard is everyone will not be covered under this plan. You are right on your other points.

[Javaman]

39. You must be of the old fashion ilk that believes that the congress people actually still

listen to us.

77% of the people of this nation want national health care, yet, our congress morons still whine about not having the votes.

So what was that about working to change their minds?

They don't listen to us, in fact, they have never listened to us on this issue.

They listen to their corporate donors.

So has much as I admire your will to keep up the fight, sadly, we never even had a chance from the gate.

[dflprincess]

86. I don't think anyone will stop working for actual reform BUT

what's to make our bought & paid for reps listen to us any better in the future?

If this is the best the Democrats could do with the majorities they have now, we can only conclude that this scam is what they wanted to do all along.

[D23MIURG23]

97. Given the level of uh, "energy" from the dems over health care that is exactly what i expect.

I don't think "everyone" is to blame here. I don't think the actions of "everyone" have led to the current trouble. I would say the problem is our politicians; you know, the ones who are so pathologically spineless that every attempt they make to 'reform' an industry ends in a make-up blowjob for the fat cats.

If you think there will be a second wave of reform after the health care industry gets its "status quo with mandates" bill, you are crazy. If this bill passes there won't be any reform, no matter what we do. They'll have "accomplished" that already and moved on.

Fuck that. If the senate is going to be dangerously useless, its better that they not be able to put it on their CVs.

[Prism]

8. People truly have no idea - and they really don't care.

My parents had one of the so-called Cadillac plans offered by my dad's union. Five or so years ago, my dad needed a triple bypass. Not only were there crazy massive expenses even with insurance many people would consider excellent, but his job would only compensate him so much for the time off.

Within a year, my parents declared bankruptcy.

And that was with both me and my brother giving them every single extra penny we had.

They were solvent before my dad's illness. Making their mortgage payments, making ends meet, trying to scrimp their way towards retirement. One heart problem nearly wrecked them.

My mom will be working two jobs for the rest of her life. She's in her 70s, a breast cancer and heart attack survivor, working two jobs. There is no retirement for her. My dad retired to an uncertain pension (his industry isn't getting a bail-out, you see), and he is also likely to work until his death. They're both getting social security, he has a pension, and their medicines and care are still killing them. This, while my brother and I give them every little bit we can.

All because he needed heart surgery.

We want to institutionalize this for everyone with the force of law?

Madness. Madness. This is not the Democratic Party. This is something else entirely.

[FrenchieCat]

10. So you are saying that because of what your family experienced under the status quo

that we have reasons to fear this bill?

I'm sorry about what your family had to go through,
but me thinks folks are starting to become paranoid,
expecially those who have always opposed this plan.
Guess we're in the last few moments, and desperation
is setting in.

But you have not offered a single fact about the current bill,
nor cited a single page,
nor offered any documented evidence,
just your ranting trying to scare folks without back up.

People who have actually read the bill,
intelligent and thoughtful folks like Rachel Maddow
are saying pass the damn bill.

But till then, Good luck with your strategy.

[Prism]

13. The simple truth is a powerful one

Insurance is not care.

Say it again.

Insurance is not care.

One. More. Time.

Insurance is not care.

This will remain true after HIR.

You have been referencing the bill repeatedly, and just about every single time you do, much more informed people have to come in and explain why what you're claiming about the bill is uninformed and untrue. I've glanced through the bill (I'm not going to claim I've read thousands of pages, but I read what I can). There is nothing, zero in there that explains how people will pay for the actual care they need should they get seriously ill.

And you know, you really oughtn't be cavalier about personal stories. I seem to remember you mentioning a nephew's illness and taking massive umbrage when you didn't like some of the reactions to that story. So emotional appeals about family experience were just dandy for you, but when someone else shares their experiences, it's evil scare tactics and paranoia?

How many sides can one mouth have?

[FrenchieCat]

16. I was told that I was using him as a prop and a trump card.....

By those who oppose this bill, so you know,
I've not experienced any sympathy for that
7 year old boy.....only the criticism that
I dared mention him.......
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=223207&mesg_id=224614

And of course, that's just what you yourself did.

At least I told you that I was sorry that
your family had to experience this misfortune
caused by the current state of health care as it stands.

[Prism]

18. I did nothing of the sort

I'd like you to point out where in my post I objected to people sharing personal experiences with health care.

I simply said I find your dismissal of my experiences hypocritical when you felt your own experiences were valid and important enough for an OP.

If you're an honest person, you cannot use your own experiences and then turn around and posit that other peoples' equally valid experiences are paranoid scare tactics.

If you're an honest person.

[FrenchieCat]

21. Seems like my "umbrage" was the part you remembered best......

" seem to remember you mentioning a nephew's illness and taking massive umbrage when you didn't like some of the reactions to that story. So emotional appeals about family experience were just dandy for you, but when someone else shares their experiences, it's evil scare tactics and paranoia?"

For the third time, I'm sorry how the current state of health care insurance impacted your family
in such a negative way, just like I am sorry in the way that it impacted my family.

That's why I want to change things and now is the time....
because it's broken totally, and this HCR is not worse....
too many that know way more than me have said that it is better,
so there is no reason that I should believe you over them,
even with you advocating status quo and somehow believing that
telling your family's tragedy would somehow inexplicably make
someone want to stay with how things currently stand for an undetermined
length of time.

[Prism]

27. This bill *is* the status quo

It is the status quo enshrined and enforced by the government. It is the status quo inflicted upon millions of Americans for a generation. It is a broken status quo upheld as the model and uniformly imposed upon everyone with no option for relief or escape.

My family's experience will not change with this bill. My experience, different from my parents, will not change with this bill. Tens of millions of Americans with insurance but without the money to pay for care will not find relief in this bill.

The problem is in the frame. Candidate Obama demanded health care. President Obama is demanding health insurance. That is a massive walk back, a fundamental betrayal, a breath-taking selling out that would shock if it weren't so coolly brazen and treated as so business-as-usual by the political class.

Look at the walk backs on this. No mandates. We will have a strong public option, period. Ok, we need mandates, but we will have a strong public option, period. Well, maybe no public option. The public option is just this teensy tiny thing. I never campaigned on a public option. The public option isn't important. There are better things in this bill than a public option - we should forget about it. Rally your representatives for a public option! Sign this petition for the public option! The public option is dead.

And that is just one portion of this bill. How can you, or anyone else, progress through these myriad policy positions at so rapid a pace without suffering from catastrophic whiplash?

I'm still with Candidate Obama. I knew single-payer wouldn't pan out. I wanted a strong public option and no mandates. That was the compromise. When President Obama started putting forward mandates, I compromised yet again. I said "Fine, as long as there is a strong public option, this can be the lesser evil for now." And then not even that happened.

You know, it's tiresome to be painted as some uncompromising purist when this President has demanded nothing but compromise from his supporters. I'll never understand the loyalty you and others unquestioningly give him when he so pointlessly often proves his disloyalty to you. He makes his supporters look like absolute fools with the way he shifts and discards and pivots without any kind of logic or consistency outside of wanting a signing ceremony to prove he "did something". He constantly leaves his supporters holding the bag. You have to argue six contradictory positions and then hope no one remembers what you were supporting last week. You have to hope everyone reads in a vacuum because you have to behave like you're posting in one.

President Obama is merely an ordinary politician, so I don't much expect any better from him at this point. But you and others are not politicians. So your support of these ever-shifting contradictions makes no sense at all to me. What are you gaining from it? You must be gaining something, because I can't believe anyone would rationally or willingly countenance looking like a total fool so many times on behalf of an ordinary politician unless they were getting something extraordinary from him.

Health insurance? Is that really it? After all this? After a year of ineptitude, broken promises, outright lies, and shoveling giant portions of the Treasury towards private corporations? All this for health insurance that won't even guarantee actual care?

That is so little. So very, very little. That is so little a thing when measured against the sacrifices of credibility, integrity, honesty, and our nation's future required to get that final signing ceremony.

And yet, I'm the bad guy. Because I still believe in and support what Candidate Obama told me he believed in and supported. He said he would fight for no mandates and a public option. I'm still fighting. Where'd he go? And why are you following? By the time you get there, he'll be gone.

He always is.

[Oregone]

30. The status quo is unsustainable

This bill solves that, and private, for-profit, multi-tiered insurance will live on for decades yet.

The problem is not solved...just changed

[Prism]

32. Propped up and enlarged, but still the same

No care for the foreseeable future. Just an endless wrangling over insurance. Still.

[pattmarty]

62. And everyone seems to forget: It institutionalizes privatization into the system............

............Once that happens, it will never change from a for profit system.

[mdmc]

71. 1

woop.there.it.is

[Starry Messenger]

87. A-fuckin-men

"You know, it's tiresome to be painted as some uncompromising purist when this President has demanded nothing but compromise from his supporters."

[shirlden]

99. Amen,

and again Amen..................I seconded that rant.

:nuke:

[4gabriella]

103. Yes, Prism, I agree, this bill is the status quo.

And we will remain stuck in the status quo with healthcare until we eliminate the influence of money in DC. We know this. Maybe we should focus, above all else, on the passage of the Fair Elections Now Act. Currently there are 139 cosponsors in the House; this is up from 114 on 11/14/09. The Senate has a paltry 9 cosponsors.

A group of over 200 religious leaders wrote House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and "blasted the Supreme Court's ruling that allows large corporations unlimited financial support of candidates during elections." They urged "Congress to pass the Fair Elections Now Act."

41 business executives "sent a letter to House and Senate leadership urging them to pass the Fair Elections Now Act in response to the Supreme Court's decision in Citizens United."

In recent opinion polls Americans show support for changing the way campaigns are financed. One poll "found that nearly two thirds of Americans (65%) disagree with the Supreme Court's recent decision in Citizens United v. FEC, which allowed corporations and unions to spend without limit from their treasuries to influence elections." And another poll showed a "larger percentage of voters favor public funding 'strongly' (44%) than those who are opposed or undecided combined. What’s more, every major demographic and political group solidly favored the proposal, including 69% of Democrats, 64% of Republicans, and 66% of independents."

If we are to have true healthcare reform we must end the status quo. The corrupt influence of money in our politics is felt across the political spectrum. It is time to end this nightmare.

This is my first post at DU; I hope my comment is appropriate for this thread.

Sources:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1826
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-752 http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2010/02/clergy-blast-supreme-court-rul.php
http://www.fairelectionsnow.org/businessleaders
http://youstreet.org/node/148

[Prism]

108. Welcome to DU!

I agree with you wholeheartedly. This is all of a piece. As long as our politicians are openly for sale, the game will be figuring out how little the American people are willing to accept while continuing to vote them into office. Heath care, civil rights, the wars, hunger, prisons, and so much more, all determined by the magic number in a campaign's bank account.

Thanks so much for the links.

[4gabriella]

115. Thanks for the welcome, Prism!

Exactly, it is all connected. And folks understand, on a gut level ~ money speaks. Hmm, until we have public financing of campaigns, I think all members of Congress should have to wear contributor decals on their clothing, like NASCAR drivers, so we know exactly who sponsored their vote. :D

[Political Heretic]

126. Very powerful. Well said.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pecwae]

89. I'm sorry for what you

and your family are going through. I'm also sorry that when you relate a very troubling and personal story here you're admonished for doing so.

Insurance is not care. I don't know how many hammers it will take to get that through some seriously thick skulls.

[Prism]

91. If they've never experienced it, they don't know

I think it really is as simple as that. I've seen so many friends and family with insurance who still do not seek out care because they cannot afford the appointments or the medicines or the time off work.

Insurance is step one in a 287-step process. Once this bill is passed, Congress will claim victory and decline to take up major reform again for another ten or fifteen years.

If you're going to make this your Big Effort, it needs to count. It needs to help. It needs to bring real relief to people.

Stopping at step one and then hoping it gets better is a slap in the face to the American people.

[LibDemAlways]

114. Once the bill is passed and signed, the lawsuits will begin.

The Constitutionality of requiring citizens, under penalty of law, to enrich the coffers of private corporations is certainly a matter to be decided by the courts. I suspect litigation will drag on for years. In the meantime, very little will change. People will still not be able to afford either the insurance or the care.

I take that back. One thing will change. When the American people realize they've been had, we can look forward to the R's taking control of Congress in Nov.

[Skittles]

120. and the talking points for repukes to use in the next election are priceless

I'm absolutely disgusted

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

133. Much more informed people?

Like who? Can you cite an economics or health care expert that says we shouldn't pass this bill?

[glitch]

40. Deserves it's own thread.

:hug:

[QC]

48. +1

[Prism]

92. But we all have these stories

I know so many of us who have these experiences with insurance.

It isn't that the politicians and the partisans aren't seeing them - I know they do.

It's that their own political and personal fortunes take up much grander space in their thought process and they proceed accordingly.

We should call this Signing Ceremony Reform. It'd be nearer the mark.

[cornermouse]

129. And that's exactly the point.

We all either have a family member or know someone who is unable to get health care. The assumption that we're opposing what is being proposed for political reasons is absurd and simply untrue. If we had serious reason to believe mandates without universal healthcare or public option would be a solution, we'd all be on board the train. The fact is, the mandates will take what little cash we have left away and we'll still be unable to afford help. What we really need is universal healthcare. That's something we could afford if we got out of the mideast.

[Greyhound]

70. We have two similar stories going on in our family right now, one aged woman on Medicare

and a middle-aged woman with the "Congressional Insurance Plan" (she works for the Feds). Both have been/are going to be ruined and this is only going to make it worse.

These political cheer-leaders don't give a crap about either of our families or our futures, they just want a "win" and damn the consequences. Even the moldy crumbs in this POS are unlikely to ever take effect, but even if they do are wholly inadequate. What they don't want to talk about is what this law doesn't do.

[Prism]

93. I'm sorry for what they're going through

You know, as horrible as my family's experience has been, as trying and stressful and just plain unhealthy as dealing with the financial fall-out is for everyone, I consider them comparatively lucky. My parents are still in their home, still have food on the table, and are still alive.

They are far ahead of so very many people in this country. That is the real tragedy.

[madrchsod]

9. my wife`s health insurance went up 500 dollars-2000-2500 deduct

her over all payment went up 15%.

i`ve been saying this along...just millions more for the insurance companies and bankruptcy lawyers. i know..been there- done that twice in my life. both times were do to medical bills.


but we dare not be critical of our leader who sold out to the insurance,pharma,and hospital industry.


never again.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[Lydia Leftcoast]

74. It's the reality room as opposed to the party loyalist policy wonk room

and I count myself as part of the reality room.

Everything I've seen says that my "coverage" (virtually non-existent now--an actual illness would bankrupt me, and I'm currently out $1000 out of pocket for my broken elbow and don't know where I'm going to get it) will either stay the same (whoopee! All that for the status quo!) or get worse (higher premiums).

[Oregone]

20. The "46 million uninsured" is just a political football at this point

Almost everything regarding this charade is.

Essentially, when you don't start a debate about health care on a foundation of egalitarianism, you have to come up with a lot of distractions to push a debate this far.

Well, its come and soon it'll be passed. What can you do about it? People don't want to learn. They want to "win".

"I heard ten thousand whispering and nobody listening
I heard one person starve I heard many people laughing"

[FrenchieCat]

22. Yep....just a number!

Who gives a shit about them!

Let them move to Sweden if they want some care.
till then, let's just wait till we turn into Sweden,
cause all we have to do is shout loud enough, and at
some point, some day, someone is bound to hear us
and make it happen. Fantasies don't cure the sick though.

[Oregone]

23. The US will never turn into Sweden when the liberal party is laying dead in the street

It is a fantasy. As long as the Democratic Party sits there capitulating, groveling to their overlords, its not going to happen.

So yeah, I guess the alternative is to embrace the bastard child produced when the insurers raped the party. All right...but where the fuck does that get you, talking points aside? Fuck if you know. "Post-partisanship" doesn't have a road map, or at least one that concerns the working class.

[Dragonfli]

28. We are expendable because we can't afford to buy this admin as others have

Sad but true, and at the same time we are admonished for not enjoying being sold out and in my case sentenced to death at least 10 years earlier than I would have been if I could afford care.

It is even worse now in fact as I will also be penalized for being poor.

I do not know how I will even be able to pay the fine the insurance companies now will receive thanks to my own party, collected in fact by my own government and given to wealthy corporate "persons" that can afford to buy a president.

[Marr]

121. An insurance form doesn't cure the sick, either.

I don't know how many times it has to be said. Health insurance is not health care. In fact, in my own case, it's the thing that's *preventing* proper health care. I'm supposed to visit the doctor every three months to manage a health condition. I can't afford it, because my insurance has refused to pay a dime of anything so far, and my deductible is high.

Odd thing is, I could just barely afford to visit the doctor every three months if I weren't sending that money to the insurance company, whose sole contribution so far has been a series of timely rejection letters.

The insurance companies are the problem. Institutionalizing them is worse than doing nothing. It will ensure that real healthcare reform doesn't occur for a very long time, and this obsolete, corrupt industry is propped up for decades to come on our tax dollars.

[ClassWarrior]

55. Nobody sweated those people last summer when we were giving LIEberman and the Conservadems...

...all the time in the world to trash the bill.

You are so correct. They're political props to be wheeled out when convenient to us.

:eyes:

NGU.

[LostInAnomie]

31. Yep, the bill doesn't take effect until 2013.

If Krugman is for it, it's a good bill. Pass it.

[Odin2005]

33. K&R, the fanboys will be on your case though.

[blindpig]

34. Sham

Nothing but a sham.

A good time to accustom ones self to mortality, I suppose.

Fuck that.

[Romulox]

35. No, it's worse. Now you go to bed trying to figure out how to pay for mandatory, for - profit

insurance. Then you remind yourself that you can't afford to ever use the insurance the government is forcing you to purchase.

[Myrina]

100. BINGO!

:( Unfortunately.

[Marr]

122. Exactly. Worse than nothing. n/t

[xchrom]

36. Recommend

[Lars39]

37. And if your year of serious medical issues straddles 2 years,

instead of nicely falling between January and December? You're doubly screwn.

[Political Heretic]

45. Excellent point.

[Javaman]

38. Thank you for posting this...

it dove tails nicely into my rant of yesterday.

47 million will still be without health care, there still will be no competition and our costs will still be sky high.

Like you I also put "reform" in quotes, because it certainly is anything but reform.

Cheers to you my friend! :)

[Johonny]

41. Wait is there someone that goes to bed praying to be sick

well maybe when you had that math test you didn't study for...

I don't think any health insurance/care system turns people towards praying for bad health. In Japan, Germany, United Kingdom, France, Italy, Canada, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Ireland, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland people still go to bed praying to the flying spaghetti monster they don't get sick. Their health care isn't free either. They generally pay for it through a progressive tax system or a national insurance system. But it's not free anymore than the USA military is free.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. But it's either free or available for a modest copay at the point of service

and no one goes bankrupt from medical bills.

Last summer, there was an article in the Guardian by a British man who was injured falling off a ladder. He spent weeks in the hospital and had two surgeries, and never had to worry about how to pay the bills. He had his in-laws in the States ask their doctor would his treatment would have cost there, and the answer came back, "A minimum of $76.000."

Even in Japan, which has one of the least generous public insurance systems, you can apply for a refund from the government if your co-pays go above a certain amount, and certain catastrophic conditions are fully covered.

Oh, and in all those countries premiums (if any) are either very low for everyone or based entirely on household INCOME.

And NONE of them have deductibles.

[asdjrocky]

43. Read it twice, not a damn thing to disagree with.

It comes down to the point in this country that you have to say which side are you on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKWfnO7fhQM

[mzmolly]

46. Absolute BS. You need a reality check.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/

# No Exorbitant Out-of-Pocket Expenses, Deductibles or Co-Pays
# Insurance companies will have to abide by yearly caps on how much they can charge for out-of-pocket expenses.

[Political Heretic]

47. The yearly caps, friend, is set at > 10,000$ per family.

Actually the 10,000 out of pocket cap was in the House version of the bill. In the Senate version of the bill, its actually higher by a little bit, but I don't have the precise dollar number in front of me, so I used the lower House number just to be safe.

A 1,000 deductible is not considered "exorbitant" - its considered pretty standard. There are 1,500, 2000, and even worse deductibles out there now. I didn't use any of those as an example.

Go read the bill yourself, instead of just shouting "you're full of shit" without evidence.

You sound sadly desperate. I know this information challenges your world view - but its reality. And its factually concrete.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Political Heretic]

52. post-subsidy premium cost, plus standard deductible, plus out of pocket cap = 20,000

"about 20,000" is an estimate, but not a lie.

Sectoin 1402 of the Senate Bill gives the out of pocket cap for families - $11,900 annually.

Section 1402. I'm assuming, since you like to talk about HCR so much, you've got a copy of the bill handy. Go find it yourself.

[mzmolly]

56. 11900 for a FAMILY under the Obama plan. Not 20K for an individual. You mislead

people. "Natoma" mentioned possibly qualifying for the medicaid expansion so the out of pocket MAX will not apply.

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/sidebyside.cfm

There is NO cap for those without coverage as you know. I'm not sure how you feel this benefits the poor people of color you claim to represent?

[Political Heretic]

59. Once you can't afford care, you can't afford care. It does't matter of its 20,000 or 1,000,000

At least you accept the 11,900 number for families as fact now. It's 6,000ish for an individual with no dependents. Since the overwhelming majority of people in this country have families, I think that's pretty pertinent.

At 150%, you get out of pocket costs subisidized too, but the total on-the-hook cost in a worst case scenario medical year is still about 17% of total income for someone at the 150% mark. It's 20% for a family around the median

[mzmolly]

63. Again 11900 for a family is not 20K

as you suggested.

[Political Heretic]

64. 11,900 + 5,500 + 1000 = what? Something close to 20,000? Yes.

I didn't say out of pocket cap was 20,000. I someone would be on the hook for nearly 20,000. "On the hook" would be refering to EVERYTHING someone has to pay.

Perhaps you're confused because you think out of pocket includes cost of premiums? That might be it! If you think that you are oh so fantastically wrong.

Premium costs <> "out of pocket" - its separate
Deductible costs <> "out of pocket" - its separate

Out of pocket refers to your co-pays, and how much money you pay - "out of pocket" in co-pays in a year.

It's on top of premiums and deductibles. Got it?

[mzmolly]

67. What income figure are you using in your scenario?

Break it down. Here's a helpful tool.

http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx

Also tell me what that same family will save under the new plan.

[inna]

72. Try examples here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7338574

[mzmolly]

77. Sure.

$66,370 Total Income (for family of 4) under Obama care would qualify for a subsidy of $2,379. Their premium costs would be lowered from $8,636 to $6,257. The monthly savings under this scenario is nearly $200.

An employer based plan would cost this family roughly the same amount.

[Political Heretic]

79. Ack we're talking across a couple threads... and I'm slow (in bed on laptop, cause of bad back)

Okay, so I appreciate inna's help with that link to a great thread.

Now, I understand your response. And I understand your response in our other conversation threads too, I think. Which is basically, any help is is better than no help.

I understand that, but there are two objections that I have to that:

First, something we haven't talked about yet in this set of exchanges, is that I believe this bill doesn't just "help" - I actually believe this bill hurts people. It is because I believe this bill actively hurts people that I'm not moved by arguments of "something is better than nothing." Yes, if that something doesn't hurt. Take ARR Act - that was some seriously weak stimulus spending that should have been far more targeted and much more robust. But I supported it. Why? Because contrary to all the characterizations flying around, I do not only support the "perfect." It was stimulus, and stimulus was needed. It wasn't perfect, but it was better than nothing because it did no harm and did some good.

But in this case, I feel passing this Senate version without any clear idea of what will be fixed later or even if anything will be fixed later does harm to Americans. I keep repeating this because I want it to sink in. My primary problem is not that the bill isn't "good enough" or that the perfect is the enemy of the good for me. My primary problem is that I believe this bill is going to make things WORSE for millions of Americans over the long term. I belive its a set BACK to health reform, not a foundation for a way forward.

The second, subsequent to that, I believe that this bill does little to nothing to adequately address the cost of care facing most American families. And to me, it doesn't matter if the bill makes things "cheaper" for families if "cheaper" is STILL outside of their affordability range.

Being slightly less unattainable is still unattainable. So I don't feel good about that.

[mzmolly]

81. I've got good news for you. The Senate bill is not going to be voted on again. The latest below ...

"House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said that no final decision had been made on the complex parliamentary strategy, which would allow House Democrats to pass the Senate's health care legislation without voting on the bill itself. Instead House members, who dislike the Senate bill, would vote on a rule for debate that would deem the bill passed once a smaller package of fixes also had passed.

Edited to add link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100316/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul

Essentially, "fixes" to the Senate bill will pass before the Senate bill is "deemed" passed by the House.

However, I have defended the Senate bill because I believe that progress needs a starting place. And, I feel that even the Senate bill makes great strides.

I have not seen the fixes, but (contrary to previous claims) I have a sneaking suspicion that the "public option" may be part of the end result.

I really have to move my ass off this chair today. But, thanks for bringing the discussion back to a respectful/helpful place. :hi:

[Political Heretic]

82. damn..... interesting! I'll give that a read. This is what I wanted in the first place!

Remember that long debate we had a while back where we decided to focus on what we agreed on.... I wanted fixes passed firs - so that they were garunteed - then the bill passed.

This is promising.

You might see me come on board haha. :) I'll be reading a lot more throughout the day today.

[mzmolly]

83. Yes, I do recall your suggestion to this effect previously. :) I'd love to see you on board PH.

Glad I could share what appears to be good news right now.

Once again, peace.

[LibDemAlways]

116. Assuming your figures are correct, how is that hypothetical

family of four supposed to find the money to handle co-payments, deductibles, and prescription drugs after they've shelled out over $6200 just for premiums? Given that the family has a mortgage or rent payment, income and property taxes, food and clothing expenses, utilities, transportation expenses, and a thousand incidentals, they are still one major illness away from bankruptcy. It just may take them a little longer to get there than if they had no insurance at all - but it's still postponing the inevitable.

[mzmolly]

135. The same way I do.

And again no one said this bill was the END.

[LibDemAlways]

136. You haven't answered the question. Do you work for the "health"

(I use the term loosely) insurance industry? Your response is quite cavalier. I'm trying to figure out how this bill improves life for a family of four making 66K a year, and keeps them from declaring bankruptcy in the event of a major illness. If people are still going to be in terrible financial straits under this bill, what's the point?

You are right, though, in saying that this bill probably isn't the end. Future Republican Congresses and Presidents will make sure it gets stripped of any good it may do, but will leave the mandates in place. This isn't a government program to begin with, so it can't be "improved" the way the government improved Social Security and Medicare.

[mzmolly]

137. I think it's cavalier to suggest the same family is better off without the 200 monthly

gift toward health care premiums. I think it's cavalier to say that any family is better off being denied coverage.

I do NOT work for the health care industry. Never have. I do have a type 1 diabetic in my family, who lived without health care coverage for years. I know the difference between having health care vs. NOT having it. I know that all the BS about worst case scenarios from the naysayers is highly unlikely.

Again, every family is better off having access to health care. EVERY family will need it at some point. The fact is that health insurance access saves 45,000 lives annually. It's caviler to say we can wait for change.

[onpatrol98]

113. Hmm...something must be wrong?

Maybe I'm misreading this link...it looks like I wouldn't qualify for a subsidy (I guess I kind of knew that). So, I know my costs aren't going down. I guess that means I'll just keep paying more...even after this bill passes.

[mzmolly]

138. I'll be glad to double check your figures. As to you paying more. You'll pay less

if the bill passes because there will be oversight and the unfounded rate hikes we've experienced in the past, will be a thing of the past.

:hi:

[onpatrol98]

140. Optimism

I like your optimism. I definitely hope this is the case.

[mzmolly]

141. Thank you.

:)

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Political Heretic]

54. Section 1402, of Senate Bill

It's actually 11,900 - that's the out of pocket cap for families.

Even after subsides and assistance, even after out of pocket downward adjustment for hitting the 150% of poverty mark right before qualifying for medicaid, families facing the worst case medical scenarios are on the hook for nearly 20% of their annual income (17%).

[Cleobulus]

51. Who the hell defines what is exorbitant?

Getting the Senate's silver plan will mean I'd have to shell out 5,000 dollars I do NOT have to be able to get my preexisting condition treated, it might as well be 5 million dollars considering that 5 grand is over a quarter of my income. That is exorbitant to me.

[dflprincess]

88. How the Obama administration defines "exorbitant" and what

exorbitant means to us serfs are probably very different amounts.

[Edweird]

65. Yep.

[Political Heretic]

66. nice sig!

:D

[Edweird]

73. Thanks :)

I love that episode. Funniest aqua teen ever!

[mdmc]

68. ft employee fully insured BUT LACKING ACCESS TO AFFORDABLE MEDICAL TREATMENT

And very sick on top of it..

[Political Heretic]

80. Millions of Americans are about to join you. :( I'm so sorry.

[mdmc]

84. misery

ya know how the sayin goes..
peace my friend..

[avaistheone1]

76. k&r

[SlingBlade]

78. K & R

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

90. thank you for posting this. I am uninsured too!

You are wonderful.

[tranche]

94. "guaranteeing their citizens health care for free"?

C'mon dude. At least represent both sides of this argument.

[Political Heretic]

98. Um, no I don't think I will.

I'm not here to give equal time.

I'll represent my side of the argument, and the other side can represent itself - or go fuck itself. Whichever it prefers.

[Marr]

124. I like your attitude. n/t

[inna]

96. Can anyone kindly explain to me exactly WHY

America has to settle for far less than the rest of the civilized WORLD takes for granted??


What is WRONG with us??

[Political Heretic]

102. Until a majority are asking this question daily...

...we won't have substantive progress, I'm afraid.

[depakid]

104. Health insurers, hospital lobbies and PhARMA are more important than ordinary Americans

That's the message the Obama administration and the "conservative" wing of the party has sent you.

You are second class citizens of the world and, despite the fact that the US pays almost double what other nations do- you simply don't deserve health care without risking bankruptcy.

[colsohlibgal]

105. Scam, Scam, Scam

I Have noticed for some time that Obama, Reid, Pelosi and other democratic leadership types always choose their word carefully even when touting this "reform" They never really say anything about lowering the crushing cost of health care. They concentrate on phrases like "containing the cost" or "containing the rate of increases".

How reassuring. You can't afford it now so all they'll do is slow down how quickly it can keep going up from what you couldn't afford in the first place. Yep, that is real reform and such a help.

It would be hard to calculate how many people die because they live here and not in about any other country. It's our shame.

[Skittles]

109. and there are plenty of DUers cheerleading this scam

it is beyond disgusting :puke:

[Lorien]

112. +1

That's the painful truth of the matter.

[Political Heretic]

117. Hear hear.

[woodguy]

118. What do you do if you're UE?

Like me? And medical condition prevents employment (also economy is pretty rotten for someone who lays hardwood floors)

PS will work for re break of leg and cast.

[jeff47]

128. Assuming your income is near zero, Medicaid. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. My only HOPE and that is the last thing remaining

is that this poss (which will make things better for about 30 million, the debate will be how much better)... will be the beginning of real change. And given US history, there is a chance that will be the case.

But that will ONLY happen if you and I REMAIN involved and a total pain in the ass.. or they will have all the incentives to scream victory and move on.

Go ahead call me a cynic. But US history sucks, really sucks in that sense.

The SS bill of 1935 made this poss look like very good... and so did Medicare in 1965.

So call me a cynic, but the battle just begun. And not just for you, but every other American in this country, even those opposed to gub'mint socialist programs who love them SS checks.

[Juche]

125. Read Atul Gawande's column on the subject of costs

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/12/14/091214fa_fact_gawande





What I don't get about people who oppose the bill is what do they think will happen when the bill doesn't pass? What will happen is another 10 years before politicians try again. At least this way people get some subsidies and regulations.

The US has the worst (at the very least, the least reliable) health care system in the developed world. Even with these reforms we will probably still have the worst. But at least there will be expansions of public plans like medicaid, medicare, community centers, etc. There will be new regulations. And there will be efforts to reduce costs. And primary care will be more obtainable.



People are less screwed with this bill. It will be easier to get coverage and harder to rescind it. There are subsidies for those who are under 400% of the poverty line. The annual OOP maximums are there and there are no caps. People are still better off as English, Canadian, French, etc with their health care systems. But I'd rather be an American with this bill than an American without it.



But no, it doesn't really turn my stomach. If you have a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the best health care, before this bill those 46 million people were maybe a 5 on a health care scale. After the bill they will be a 7. Not as good as the 9 you'd get in France or Germany, but still an improvement.

[jeff47]

127. Because that's not how a "Bronze" plan is supposed to be used

The theory behind the "Bronze" plans is to tie them to HSAs. That's why the limits are set where they are - they're the limits for HSAs.

The theory being the HSA absorbs the deductible and your out-of-pocket maximum if you have a "year were you need serious heath care". During a 'normal' year, you're paying lower premiums and fund an HSA up until it's got your deductible and out-of-pocket maximum covered. After that, you don't need to contribute any more to your HSA, freeing up more money.

It's the 'self-insurance' concept some wonks have been pushing for a long time to keep costs down. Said wonks believe that costs are going up so much because we don't comparison shop, and funding it from an HSA gives us 'incentive' to do so.

The problem said wonks are glossing over is that your HSA is invested in the market, much like an IRA. So if the economy goes into the tank, thus dragging down the stock market and you get laid off, suddenly your HSA isn't there to cover you.

Single-payer still works better, but these plans are not quite as doom-and-gloom as you indicate. Assuming you can use them as intended.

[LWolf]

130. +1

[humbled_opinion]

Worst Part

You will know that Democrats led by Obama spent all of their political capital getting us this flawed legislation and Repukes will likely take control of congress in 2011 and enslave us under this legislation to their corporate masters in the Insurance company.

My point if we were going to spend all this capital we should have got something in this bill... There is little doubt that Democrats don't know how to use the Political system to their advantage.

[humbled_opinion]

131. Worst Part

You will know that Democrats led by Obama spent all of their political capital getting us this flawed legislation and Repukes will likely take control of congress in 2011 and enslave us under this legislation to their corporate masters in the Insurance company.

My point if we were going to spend all this capital we should have got something in this bill... There is little doubt that Democrats don't know how to use the Political system to their advantage.

[humbled_opinion]

132. Worst Part

You will know that Democrats led by Obama spent all of their political capital getting us this flawed legislation and Repukes will likely take control of congress in 2011 and enslave us under this legislation to their corporate masters in the Insurance company.

My point if we were going to spend all this capital we should have got something in this bill... There is little doubt that Democrats don't know how to use the Political system to their advantage.

[Mercuryman]

134. You are correct

Prayers won't help us. Only direct action will.