Kucinich & Moore are wrong: Listen to Natoma Canfield

[Gman]

I find myself seething with frustration at two of the people I admire most in the realm of progressive issues and politics: Michael Moore and Dennis Kucinich. Watching Countdown on MSNBC last night brought it all to a head. I listened to President Obama tell the story of Natoma Canfield, a woman priced out of the health insurance market only to be diagnosed with leukemia.

Then I listened to Ms. Canfield herself, speaking from her hospital bed after a day of treatments, answering Lawrence O'Donnell's question about what she would tell her Congressman, Dennis Kucinich, who says he'll vote against this legislation because it doesn't go far enough.

Natoma Canfield said simply this:

"Well, it just seems to me that everything needs a start"

And with that, a self-employed house cleaner and cancer patient in Ohio spoke more eloquently and with more wisdom than either Michael Moore or Dennis Kucinich ever have on this issue.

First, if you haven't, watch this segment of President Obama yesterday, telling Natoma Canfield's story. It starts at about 2:05.

---------------------------------------------

http://www.eclectablog.com/2010/03/kucinich-moore-are-wrong-listen-to.html

[Richardo]

1. Recommended in protest of political posturing at the expense of people in need

Thanks for this post. :patriot:

[mzmolly]

2. In 90 days Ms.Canfield can get coverage if this bill passes, not four years

as Michael Moore suggested. A pre-existing condition renders coverage sooner.

I too watched the segment Gman. And, saying "no" this this reform bill is anything but heroic as Moore suggests.

[still_one]

10. Can you provide a link to that? /nt

[mzmolly]

Sure

SEC. 1101. IMMEDIATE ACCESS TO INSURANCE FOR UNINSURED INDIVIDUALS WITH A PREEXISTING CONDITION.

excerpt:
(a) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall establish
a temporary high risk health insurance pool program to provide health insurance coverage for eligible individuals
during the period beginning on the date on which such program is established and ending on January 1, 2014.

excerpt:
(d) ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL.—An individual shall be deemed to be an eligible individual for purposes of this section if such individual—
(1) is a citizen or national of the United States or is lawfully present in the United States (as determined in accordance with section 1411);
(2) has not been covered under creditable coverage (as defined in section 2701(c)(1) of the Public Health Service Act as in effect on the date of enactment of this Act) during the 6-month period prior to the date on which such individual is applying for coverage through the high risk pool; and
(3) has a pre-existing condition, as determined in a manner consistent with guidance issued by the
Secretary.

courtesy of Quietamerican.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7924841&mesg_id=7925228

[still_one]

29. Thanks. I will tell you what upsets me, why haven't the Democratic voices be yelling this

The argument that people with pre-existing condition won't be covered until after 2012 has been constantly thrown out, and spokes people for HCR have definitely lacked in their communicative abilities

Democrats had better start learning to get the message out or it will be disaster

[defendandprotect]

38. Because it only removes that obstacle . . . NOT THE COSTS of the insurance!!!

This particular woman will be unable to pay the costs!!

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Javaman]

73. How so? I would like to know how this womans insurance premiums will change?

She will get coverage, but how will her pay out be different?

I read the bill too and it appears as if that part isn't dealt with.

[mzmolly]

87. Subsidies are provided and medicaid is expanded to higher income brackets.

Cost controls are also included in the plan, and cost increases are limited and must be justified.

Here is more info on the subsidies JM.

http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx

Nate Silver analyzed the Senate bill in December and commented on the issue.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/why-progressives-are-batshit-crazy-to.html

[defendandprotect]

89. You're saying she won't have to pay for health care? No insurance costs?

[mzmolly]

98. I'm saying she said she'll qualify for substantial

help via subsidies or the medicaid (A PUBLIC OPTION) expansion under new reform.

[defendandprotect]

105. So the INCOME testing makes her a GOP "welfare queen" . . .

that's not health care for all -- it's game playing for the benefit of corporatism

compliments of Obama/Rahma --

[mzmolly]

108. You've lost all credibility on this issue. I'm afraid I'm going to have to ignore

you going forward. Best of luck getting informed on health care reform.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

126. You're saying there is no INCOME TESTING . . . ???

Ah, gee . . . I'll miss you and your corporate outlook!!



:evilgrin:

[robinblue]

178. I imagine many will label those recieving subsities as welfare

queens. --or on the gov dole. It is horrible when that happens. and I think it will.

[defendandprotect]

186. Right . . . and it's the same thing the GOP has tried to do with Social security . . .

in turning it into a tiered system based on INCOME testing!!

Another little fascist idea of the Repug is to disconnect women from their

husband's benefits!!

[mzmolly]

51. I agree.

There is little excuse for the horrendous messaging on this bill.

[grahamhgreen]

160. This says she WILL NOT be covered!!!!!

"An individual shall be deemed to be an eligible... if such individual—

has not been covered under creditable coverage ... during the 6-month period prior to the date on which such individual is applying for coverage..."

She WAS covered just a month ago, so she is NOT eligible - which is the whole problem with this monstrosity - there is so much verbiage that it will be construed to mean whatever the team of lawyers hired by big insurance wants it to mean.

WE MUST HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE TO BIG INSURANCE!

[defendandprotect]

187. ,,,abd that's exactly what Michael Moore was pointing out . . . this sucks!!

[robinblue]

177. So, she will wait 3 months and hope that # 3 covers here. But

number 2 could be a problem also.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. She dropped her coverage because she could not afford it

How will she afford to buy into the pool for the denied? She had coverage and dropped it over the cost. So clearly, you know the cost of the new program for her. What is that cost? If you don't know, then you are making stuff up out of thin air to serve your agenda.
How much is it? Does Canfield have the ability to pay that amount?

[mzmolly]

13. Because she'll be able to qualify for subsidies or even medicaid

under the new legislation. She has said as much, so I do know.

[defendandprotect]

43. ...and that's a TIERED system . . . a "welfare system" . . . a GOP gimmick . . .

We need UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE ... where every American is treated equally!!!

Not risk pools --

Not subsidies for some poor, near poor, almost poor, about to be poor!!

Not subsidies for insurance companies to pay themselves more BONUSES!!

We need a system where every citizen is treated equally -- regardless of INCOME!!

[mzmolly]

52. You can tantrum all you like, but stomping your feet here will not save lives.

What will, is passing this bill.

[defendandprotect]

65. We need EVERYONE to receive EQUAL care . . . not a class based system . ..

for private profits!!!

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --!!

[Tailormyst]

74. Nothing else will save our country

If insurance was not tied to jobs, employers could once again give decent wages and even be able to hire more people.

[defendandprotect]

109. Exactly . . . health care is a human right . . . not "for profit" of insurance companies ...

[mzmolly]

92. EVERYONE WILL... This is NOT a class based system. We're moving AWAY FROM THAT in this bill.

Stop with the poster slogans and take some time to research the bill.

http://www.kff.org/

[Raineyb]

102. It IS a class based system. What the hell do you think the bronze, silver

gold and platinum represent? They are tiers which will divide people into the have, the have mores, the have somes, and the have nones. Bronze is only a 60% actuarial plan. Platinum is 90%. Which plan do you think has the least co-pays and deductibles? Which plan do you think covers the most? And which plan do you think the people getting subsidies will be able to attempt to afford?

Everyone? Not even the whores pushing this corporate bullshit is claiming that.

[defendandprotect]

111. Universal health care/human right --- everyone American treated equally . . !!!

[mzmolly]

119. The same thing they do for BLUE CROSS CUSTOMERS WHO HAVE ACCESS to those plans NOW.

Choice!

[defendandprotect]

127. You mean the clients who are being robbed by insurance companies . . .

as many of them would put it --

But, hey, that paperwork and bonuses ... costly stuff!!

[Raineyb]

150. If you can't afford it there IS NOT CHOICE And we're supposed to be FIXING the system

Why the hell would I want the same tiered system that's killing people NOW?

I'm done. You got yours and the rest of us can go to hell. Noted.

[mzmolly]

183. I can't afford my premiums

either, so what's your point? That people shouldn't have the same choice I and Dennis Kucinich enjoy?

[defendandprotect]

188. However, you are PAYING for them . . . this woman can't do the same ...

[Raineyb]

217. Somebody in this conversation is daft. And it damn sure ain't me.

Did they change the definition of the phrase "can't afford" to include someone who is paying something? Last I checked "can't afford" means the money isn't there.

Thank you for pointing that out.

[defendandprotect]

114. This bill is a gift from Obama/Rahma to the insurance companies ...a betrayal of public ...

I think Nixon had a better health care plan than this!!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

192. And where are the votes for that?

Why won't the UHC/single-payer people provide us with a list of those votes?

[Winterblues]

16. I do believe there will be subsidies for people like her.

When those go into effect I do not know but the whole point is to make Insurance affordable for people exactly like her..

[defendandprotect]

44. ...and that is also a "subsidy" for insurance companies . . .

We should not have a system based on INCOME levels -- nor a system which does

anything but treat all Americans equally . . . regardless of INCOME!!

[mzmolly]

56. Insurance companies, who have employees who need jobs.

Insurance companies who Dennis pays monthly for HIS health insurance.

[defendandprotect]

68. But they can only work in the "for profit" health care industry?

MEDICARE FOR ALL would create 2.3 million jobs --

and save us all money --

Why spend taxpayer money on providing 30% profits for insurance companies!!????

PLUS this "health care deform" is INCOME based . . . a tiered-system --

Let's do what every other nation has done and provide EQUAL treatment for every citizen!!

[mzmolly]

101. This bill creates 4 million

jobs. Again, your profit margin is WRONG if you consider the new legislation limits profits to 15%.

[defendandprotect]

118. So insurance company profits aren't limited to 15% plus bonuses???

And where are these 4 million jobs guaranteed -- GAO do a study on that?

So -- let's see . . . under Medicare we would only need to pay 2.3 million new workers

to provide this care -- but under insurance companies we'd need another 1.7 million to

do the same jobs?

Well, that's the way insurance companies work, isn't it -- less care, more paperwork!!

[GinaMaria]

174. They claim to pay 80-85 cents of every dollar on health care currently

Do you get back 85% of what you pay for insurance in health care (plus what your employer pays)? I don't. I can't afford to use it sometimes. Being in the health care field I rely on favors from peers etc. If you don't get back the full 85% of your costs in health care.... where does that money go? They also get discounted rates from providers so the 85% in health care you are allegedly getting back is not what they are paying for the services, or what your providers are receiving. ... Where does that money go?

[defendandprotect]

189. Those who work in the industry say this is greatly exaggerated . . .

and that the insurance companies also profit in hidden ways.

[Raineyb]

96. They can do what the rest of us are doing. Try to look for a new job. It is NOT

in the interest of the people to prop up a for profit insurance model in order to save the jobs in an industry that kills people.

Talk about a ridiculous argument.

[mzmolly]

106. The bill creates 4 million jobs

and that's not just in the insurance market. I'm not interested in "propping up" insurance markets. I'm interested in effective, efficient reform now. Health Insurance companies have a mass mechanism in place to help us with reform.

[Raineyb]

112. Health insurance companies ARE the problem with our health care system.

You can't fix the problem by further entrenching what causes the problem in the first place.

[mzmolly]

120. I ask again why Dennis Kucinich pays his monthly premium

with our help? I suspect it's because he prefers having coverage to NOT having coverage? If health insurance is only a "problem" how can we reconcile the fact that having coverage saves 45,000 lives annually?

[defendandprotect]

124. Let's ask why Obama let's us pay for his care and then screws the public ???

[tridim]

123. But you can fix it with regulation and penalties.

Which are all defined in the bill you haven't read.

[defendandprotect]

129. You mean the way they've fixed the trade agreements . . . and capitalism ...

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime --

and this legislation is simply more of it!!

[tridim]

151. Regulating an industry that has never been regulated is not "Unregulated capitalism"

It's the exact opposite.

Bizarro DU.

[defendandprotect]

190. Unregulated capitalism includes being under-regulated . . .

and as we have seen from the criminal behavior of the insurance companies --

described by Obama as "evil" -- they remain potential criminals --

We've seen no regulation yet --

and, again, "for profit" health care industry has been ripping off government

for decades!! Who's guaranteeing they'll change?

Or maybe they'll move the Toyota regulators over to watch the insurance industry?

Or maybe those who were in charge of keeping an eye on our banks?


:rofl:

[mzmolly]

141. Those here who embrace sloganeering vs. information

don't take time to read much of anything. ;)

[defendandprotect]

196. From what you've been saying, maybe you'd better go back and

read the details --

you have not had to DROP your insurance -- others have had to --

including people going bankrupt and losing homes!!

[Raineyb]

153. You mean the regulation with the loopholes you can stuff 40 million into?

And penalties that are so low that it's cheaper for the insurance companies to pay the fines than to actually pay for care?

Must be nice on Fantasy Island where the insurance companies would NEVER try to find ways around the law and the law has been written in a way to avoid such activity.

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

122. Right . .. most of them dealing with insurance company paperwork . . !!!

[dflprincess]

137. The subsidies are for premiums and will go right into the pockets of the insurance companies

(unless she qualifies for Medicare) with a private plane she will still be on the hook for out of pocket expenses. The House bill allows out of pockets for a single person of $5,000/year.

It doesn't matter how "affordable" the insurance is if you still can't afford care.

[Raineyb]

20. They never mention that. Then they'll pull out the old Medicaid card.

Of course Medicaid will drop your ass if you make one penny too much and demand that you pay them back. But don't mention that, it'll kill their buzz.

[defendandprotect]

46. Right -- this is a tiered system based on INCOME... we need EQUAL treatment for every citizen!!

Care based not on income but on need!!

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --!!

[mzmolly]

57. No it's NOT. It's a tiered SUBSIDY, based on income.

Stop the blatant desire to misinform. It may bite you soon if Dennis Kucinich changes his mind.

[defendandprotect]

70. Why are we going to subsidize 30% profits for insurance companies . . .

and subsidize patients and insurance companies?

This is a for profit system -- a distorted system based on NOT treating every

citizen equally --

Health care is a human right -- let's act like it --

and not make "welfare" clients of some of our citizens!!

MEDICARE FOR ALL, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --

[mzmolly]

81. You are far too misinformed to continue speaking on this subject. The new regulations

limit profits to 15%. Just 5% above what companies in the Netherlands enjoy.

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

[defendandprotect]

90. Medicare overhead is 3% . . . why are we paying insurance companies 15% ...PLUS BONUSES????

[Raineyb]

91. Why should we subsidize ANY of their profits?

In other countries for profit insurance only covers extras like private hospital rooms and cosmetic surgery and the like. They don't allow the insurance companies to profit off of basic health care.

[mzmolly]

116. Because they'll be providing a service. And, the fact that tax payers are subsidizing

some of their profits, means that they'll be forced to serve *better us or we'll move into the another system of care. See this article from Ezra Klein.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/the_state-based_single_payer_s.html

*new regulations will also help achieve this goal.

[defendandprotect]

132. Insurance business is based on NOT providing health care . . . where have you been???

From Nixon's Kaiser forward to now -- it's about paperwork and denial --

We'll move on when hell freezes over --

MIC . . . have we moved on? No, we still have Obama/Bush wars bankrupting the Treasury --

Trade agreements . . . have we moved on? No, we have jobs flying out of America so that

corporations can "harvest slave labor" --

Capitalism and it's corruptions -- see any re-regulation there? Glass-Steagall?

No --

and cementing these corrupt corporaitons into our health care system is simply more criminal

activity!

[G_j]

205. denial = profit

HC should NEVER operate that way.

[Raineyb]

154. They DON'T provide a service unless you think that keeping you away from medical care is a service.

Insurance companies make their money taking yours and DENYING care. They won't be forced to do a damn thing there are loopholes big enough to drive several trucks through.

[Political Heretic]

194. In 90 days she can be just as unable to afford the cost of her care as she ever was.

[NJmaverick]

3. People need to be put before ideology

[Sebastian Doyle]

86. People need to be put before CORPORATE PROFITS.

[NJmaverick]

144. and ideology

[Sebastian Doyle]

148. So it's only "ideology" when Democrats act like DEMOCRATS

And "pragmatism" when they suck the corporate dick?

[NJmaverick]

152. Nope ideology should guide goals while pragmatism should guide how to achieve those goals

still you can't put anything like ideology before people. No amount of talk about corporations will change that.

[defendandprotect]

193. The best way to go is MEDICARE FOR ALL, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT . . .

[freddie mertz]

139. If that principle had really been applied in this case, then we would have at least HEARD...

From the advocates for single-payer at the beginning of the process.

Instead, they were blocked from appearing and arrested and dragged out on orders from our "Democratic" senators.

We also would have gotten a public option and other real reforms, but the ideology of privatization intervened, deals were struck behind closed doors for political and monetary expedienct, and we all got sold out.

Including this poor woman and thousands like here, who will continue to DIE while waiting to get "coverage," or be DENIED "coverage" because they can't afford or qualify for it, under this new bill.

It sucks, and it sucks because "ideology was put before people."

[NJmaverick]

145. I don't buy into the idea that single payer is unknown to law makers

so by not giving them a forum to speak, some sort of wrong has been committed.

[freddie mertz]

157. Not about the pols. If the strengths of the S-P system had been aired in public...

It would be the citizenry that would have been informed.

Potentially threatening the back room deals that have defined and determined this process from the first.

[NJmaverick]

171. How many people do you think watch congressional testimony?

how many of those people need to be educated about what a single payer system is?

[freddie mertz]

175. So there should be no hearings on anything?

What exactly are you arguing here?

Do you think it was a good thing to exclude presentation of the most efficient and expansive system of national health care from the debate on day one?

[NJmaverick]

176. Something as dramatically different as single payer needs to be enacted at a grass roots movement

with tons of time and resources spent educating the general public. It's not going to be enacted because some "expert" testifies about it before Congress.

[freddie mertz]

182. Excuses.

[defendandprotect]

213. You must have missed the polls. . .the public understands it - gets it . . .

And the idea that Obama/Rahma doesn't "get it" --

are foggy about it -- would be hilarious, if not so tragically sad!!!


In fact, despite the lies of the US Catholic Bishops, the Catholis also want

a government run health system and they want it to include reproductive care --

post-natal/pre-natal -- and they want it to cover CONTRACEPTION and ABORTION!!!

Catholic women have just as many abortions as any other women -- pro-choice!

Anti-US Bishops/Pope?


Corporations, Pre-BRIBING and Pre-OWNING our elected officials for the

sake of corrupt capitalism!!

[defendandprotect]

195. The public wants single payer... government run health system . . .

they very well understand what it's about --

And they understand that pre-BRIBED and pre-OWNED elected officials have been

set up to block it!!



In fact, Catholics want it by large majority -- and they want reproductive services

included -- contraception and abortion!

When Latinos/Latinas are included, the majorities are even higher!

[mmonk]

191. This Bill is ideological.

[maxsolomon]

4. The caveat being: any fixes are highly improbable

HCR will disappear from the collective conciousness before the summer. No member of Congress will want to go through this year-long slog again in their career.

[Echo In Light]

6. Mission Accomplished

[maxsolomon]

168. if you mean mission accomplished by the insurance lobby

then we agree.

[Echo In Light]

184. Yes

[defendandprotect]

50. So a system where we set up some citizens to be "welfare" recipients is better?

This is not a system which treats everyone equally --

It's a system based on the old GOP gimmick of income testing --

Why?

Let's just proceed on the basis of "non-profit" health care -- and provide

the care that each citizen needs, treating each citizen equally?

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE FOR ALL - - EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT!!

[Green_Lantern]

165. it's better than a system that does nothing...

As good as Medicare for all sounds how do you expect it to pass without the votes necessary to pass it?

You seem to think Obama can unilaterally make insurances nonprofit.

[defendandprotect]

197. Cementing corporations into health care is criminal . . .

Let's once hear Obama say MEDIDARE FOR ALL, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --

and then let's see what happens?

The public already understands the difference --

Amd they want a government run health care like MEDICARE.

Meanwhile, Catholics also want a government run health care plan and they

want it to include reproductive serives . . . including contraception and abortion!!

[Green_Lantern]

218. what in the heck brought Catholics into this?

How would Medicare for all be passed in the Senate without 60 votes?

[defendandprotect]

220. Did you miss the Stupak deal . . . US Catholic Bishops private mtg with Pelosi?

Pelosi's taking a call from "Rome."

The Vatican and US Catholic Bishops -- and Stupak -- are taking positions which

Catholis themselves disagree with.

It is another attempt by the RCC to control their own members -- and all of society --

by forcing their influence over our government.


Make Repugs filibuster -- 51 votes to pass!!

[Green_Lantern]

221. are there 51 votes in the Senate to pass Medicare for all?

Sorry but if we wait until we have 51 members supporting it I doubt Democrats would be the majority any more.

The GOP would be delighted if Dems put up legislation they didn't have the votes for.

As far as the abortion issue, it's nothing but a smoke screen to derail the health reform bill and divide people on social issues.

[defendandprotect]

222. Presume there would be . . . if the public heard those words . . .MEDICARE FOR ALL...

Many Republicans also want MEDICARE FOR ALL -- and would be pushing the GOP to

go for it!!

Abortion is a legitimate issue for male-supremacist religions which are not only

supported these days by the fanatical GOP, but by many fanatics in the Dem Party.

Obama, in fact, is enlarging our taxpayer contributions to "faith-based" organizations!

[mzmolly]

131. We "fix" medicaid/medicare all the time. It's an organic process.

So, I disagree.

[defendandprotect]

199. You mean they CUT Medicare benefits/services/payments all the time ...

Specter wants to cut another $1 billion from Medicare --

Just controlling and stopping the "for profit" corporations thefts from

Medicare would make a huge difference!!

EVERYONE OF THE PHARMACEUTICAL corporations has been involved in ripping off

government and highly fined. Repeated. Including for "conspiracy"!

This cirminal behavior however never causes them to be permanently or even

temporarily barred from participating in Medicare/Medicaid again!!

Why not? Seen the latest criminal rip off by Pfizer? Were they being "regulated"?

How did it happen? They were only caught because Whistle Blowers reported them!!

[Vinnie From Indy]

5. I will guarantee that if this bill passes w/o a public option these stories

will not go away. There will be just as many Natoma Canfields as there are today over the next decade. The most frustrating part of it will be that all these future Natoma Caanfield's will be telling their sad story of NOT getting treated while holding onto their paid-in-full, mandated, insurance certificate.

[joeybee12]

8. +1

And i wish I could rec this response...I hate it how this woman is being used...I'd like her to tell me what is in the bill...she's taking it on blind faith that it will help her and others like her...it won't.

[G_j]

12. and I doubt if their stories will be embraced

by the President and the media at that point.

[still_one]

14. The solution was Medicare or single payer for all, instead we will be going into unknown

terrority where I could see so-called "unecessary" tests not being done, and people suffering the consequences of that

[Dawgs]

24. Sorry, but I'm going to trust Krugman and Dr. Howard Dean over you.

:)

[HughMoran]

27. ... will be taking your guarantee "over the next decade"

...trust me - words that will haunt you for a long, long time.

[zipplewrath]

53. Yup, even before November

As people have pointed out, there's a fair amount of assumption going on that this particular case, or really most cases, will some how suddenly not exist. Healthcare still costs alot, even if you have insurance. You know the GOP and others will be running around finding all those folks that are still hurting, or worse are getting shoved around from one type of coverage to another and falling between cracks for months and years.

I suspect in the short term the bad stories will overwhelm the positive ones, especially leading into November.

[defendandprotect]

55. It's also a class based system . . . based on INCOME testing... no equal treatment of all!!

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --

NO ONE TREATED DIFFERENTLY!!

[NorthCarolina]

71. Probably, but the path to any real reform, aka single payer,

will have been effectively roadblocked by the legislation being proposed today for decades to come, if ever. I believe that tying America to a for-profit system of private insurance is the main thrust of this legislation.

[Gman]

7. Ideology is not medicine. Ideology never cured anyone's Leukemia

WTF are Kucinich and Moore thinking? They both have all the health care they could ever need. They are both set for life so no wonder they don't give a shit about people like Natoma Canfield. They have the luxury to wait as long as they want until what they want is absolutely T-perfect (and they would probably still complain.)

[still_one]

18. and Congress could have given us Single payer or Medicare for all, but they didn't either

because...

[tridim]

39. Because our government can not just shut down an established, legal industry..

and replace it with single payer. Moore and DK don't understand this basic concept. Their purity trumps reality.

There are better, legal ways of doing this. Passing a basic reform framework is the first step.

[Fumesucker]

47. Single payer will not "shut down" private insurance..

Even in the UK you can buy private insurance, I know this for a fact since I have considerable family in the UK..

[tridim]

58. DK said we should shut down the insurance companies and implement single payer.

If that's not what he meant maybe he should clarify his position. Until he does, that's what he stands for.

[defendandprotect]

62. "Shut them down" within the government system . . .why corporate Health Care?

We don't OWE insurance companies a living ... an existence!!

There is no reason to include them in health care reform --

Have you not heard obama talking about the "evils" of insurance companies --

have you not heard clients of insurance companies talking about it?

This is a distortion of true health care --

based on unequal treatment of citizens -- a class based system with Income testing!!

[tridim]

67. Exactly. That is the plan.

It's an end-around strategy that can actually be achieved, not a nuclear attack that would be labelled "communist" by the media.

[defendandprotect]

94. The last "secret plan" a president had was Nixon's . . .

There is no need for insurance companies "for profit" health care --

MEDICARE FOR ALL, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --

[tridim]

117. If you read the bill you'll know it's not a secret.

[defendandprotect]

204. So Obama has pledged some where to include a public option...???

Invisible ink -- or do we take Rahm's word for it?





By Tom Tomorrow
http://www.salon.com/entertainment/comics/this_modern_w...


action is my duty, reward is not my concern

[Fumesucker]

77. I can think of a few positions Obama should clarify too..

But I bet he won't..

And I bet you won't raise the issue.

[defendandprotect]

97. The first should be: HEALTH CARE as a HUMAN RIGHT ...

everyone treated equally --

No INCOME TESTING . . . an old GOP gimmick to turn some recipients into "welfare clients" --!!!

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT!!

[NorthCarolina]

75. Why can't they? Other countries have done just that.

Why is it that private for-profit insurance cannot go the way of the Dodo in America?

[tridim]

84. Because it's illegal.

[NorthCarolina]

93. That's it? Thats the sole reason we can't do away with for-profit insurance?

While I have no idea WHY you feel it would be illegal since you only made a comment but didn't explain it, I would answer that whatever law you are relying on to make this claim COULD be changed.

[tridim]

110. Do you think our government should have the power to shut down the entire auto industry?

And start selling government built cars as your only choice?

I certainly hope not.

It stuns me that people don't understand this basic concept. There are legal ways to implement single payer in this context, and IMO that is exactly the plan.

[NorthCarolina]

121. In a civilized society I can see health care as a basic human right. Owning a car? Not so much.

Apples and oranges.

[tridim]

125. Okay, same question with food replacing cars.

[NorthCarolina]

130. So, I can only assume that you would also be in favor of

privatizing the Police and Fire Departments since, under this logic, they would seem to bee "illegal" in their present form.

[tridim]

134. Police and fire depts were socialized over a century ago.

Talk about apples and oranges.

I'm not against socializing HC, just against governments shutting down industries by force. The precedent that would set is scary as hell.

[defendandprotect]

201. Read the United Nations Proclamation of Human Rights: Food, Shelter,Clothing, HEALTH CARE--!!!

They don't mention cars - - nor the oil industry -- except in the context of

Global Warming, destruction of the planet!!

[defendandprotect]

200. "Only choice" . .. where would that be happening? If we had government health care ...

insurance companies would still be free to participate -- it's called competition!!

You remember that, right?

Meanwhile, had we not bailed out the corrupt automobile capitalists, they would have

had to shut themselves down!! Did you perhaps notice that????

Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move the wealth and

natural resources from the many to the few . . . and it accomplishes that quite successfully.

Especially when unregulated.

Our automobile industry's alliance with the oil industry has to be broken, for one!

[defendandprotect]

100. Nonsense . .. we don't owe insurance companies a living... nor profits ...

There is no reason that insurance companies nor Big Pharma have to be included

in a national health care program --

In fact, any "for profit" situation harms health care --

[tridim]

113. That's all true, but the government still can't shut down legal, established industries.

[defendandprotect]

133. When you open libraries, you are not shutting down book stores!!!

When you have a non-profit system of health care, you are not shutting down

"for profit" insurance companies.

It's about competitition . . .

whereas capitalism is a ridiculous "king-of-the-hill-" system intended to move the

wealth and natural resources of a nation from the many to the few --

Capitalism isn't about competitition . . . it's about killing the competitition --

[tridim]

135. Are you aware of the "exchange" in the bill?

I think you should take a look.

[defendandprotect]

202. Why don't you tell us all what you think it's about .. and what it says ...

[defendandprotect]

219. Again, you're confused -- the fact that any nation has a government run health care

system has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "shutting down legal, established industries!!

Notice that until now we didn't have a privatized military -- which, of course, was the

right thing to do. Blackwater exists as a bloodsucker on the govenrment dole.

We do not owe any corporation a living -- corporations are there to SERVE the public or

to fold.

Again -- the fact that any government engages in providing health care for its citizens --

and this bill is NOT government run health care, btw -- indicates nothing about "shutting

down any industry."

[defendandprotect]

59. Neither has money ever cured cancer . . . it's a bottomless pit of profit over progress . . .

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[G_j]

15. and

we all care that you are sick and tired...?

:shrug:


(unrec)

[NightWatcher]

17. where do you get your health insurance?

[Gman]

21. I worked for it

[NightWatcher]

26. I mean is it 100% provided and paid for by someone else?

[Bluenorthwest]

28. What sort of work do you do?

We all work, wee one. Answer the question you were asked, why not?

[Gman]

33. I am retired

and pay around $200 per month. And it's part of benefits that are union negotiated.

Wee one! LOL!

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gman]

60. Luck doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. What? You think people like me won the lottery?

I know exactly where I'd be without benefits. That's why I remain a union member. Lucky? LOL! Have you ever been on strike for 6 weeks? Ever? YOu're the type of person that would go back to work during a strike if you even went out in the first place.

My friend, you're the one that's going to need some luck if Moore and Kucinich and the rest of the GOP are successful at stopping this HCR.

[NightWatcher]

83. you are FORTUNATE TO HAVE INSURANCE

I have never/would never cross a picket line.

The rest of you, "I've got mine so screw you" crowd are a bunch of sociopaths.

[Gman]

128. Again... I walked a picket line, no income, out of work for my benefits

luck has nothing to do with it.

[Edweird]

198. You brag about your union benefits while supporting a bill that screws your brothers.

Disgusting.

[NNN0LHI]

214. How do you figure the bill screws his union brothers?

[Edweird]

215. The 'cadillac tax' places downward pressure on union health care benefits.

This has been covered a lot here, so it shouldn't be 'news'. Union members, especially blue collar labor unions, like the one in my industry - IBEW - negotiates the best benefit packages possible. This often comes with a sacrifice of wages. The 'Cadillac tax' ends up reducing benefits while reducing the value of the benefits. The IBEW does NOT support this. This talk of 'unions support this bill' is not accurate. The Dems are in deep shit if this goes through as-is.

Remember: Union support was a big factor in the last election. The Senate bill as about as close to being exactly the opposite of what was promised on the campaign trail - what got him union support.

[Cronus Protagonist]

19. I guess I'm a "spoiled brat"

Sorry for being poor. Enjoy your riches.

[defendandprotect]

76. That's the new up on "you want a PINK Pony" . . . I think??? They're so inventive!!!

:evilgrin:


The thing that bothers me most about this is taxpayers footing the bill for

insurance companies' 30% profits -- bonuses . . .

while we treat some of our citizens unequally -- with INCOME TESTING ...

an ole GOP gimmick --

It will be a tier-system -- a class based system --

rather than treating every American citizen equally -- equal care for all not based

on income but based on human rights!!!

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[G_j]

30. No one mandates contributions to the profit of others.

at least that is the way it should be.

[Gman]

31. I agree about the non-profit aspect

That's part of the fix that needs to come later.

Car insurance right now is mandated. Overall it's still a damn good way to do things. Mandatory car insurance keeps rates down. Mandatory health insurance will do the same thing.

[jonathon]

32. And, we are really sick of those who cover their ears and refuse to hear truth

This bill mandates buying private insurance that may or may not protect you when you need it and you may or may not be able to afford.

It is the profit protection act of 2010.

Here in MA, we have this suck ass system, and the price for a comprehensive family plan if you don't qualify for subsidies for a family of three...

1,200 dollars a month - Go to the Massachusetts government health care site and spend some time on there -

Or, you can buy the crapalicious crisis insurance that wouldn't cover a tenth of the bill in a emergency.

Or, you can be fined.

Huge co-pays. Huge deductibles.

Insurnace can still deny payments.

You are cheering a bill that will mandate the private health care system that created the crisis.

Sick and tired, yes. Of people who refuse to listen to any of the facts and reality behind the bill.

[Gman]

35. Stop whining

[Raineyb]

41. In other words, you got yours fuck everyone else.

Noted.

(Where the hell is the middle finger smiley when you need one?)

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Echo In Light]

37. Get over yourself

[Fumesucker]

49. My parents have been dead for forty years..

I've been on my own since I was nineteen year old, am I a "spoiled brat child"?

[defendandprotect]

64. Let's do it the way every other country has done it -- UNIVERSAL CARE . . .

not signling out people based on INCOME for testing --

Let's treat every American equally --

Further, there is no reason for insurance companies to be involved . . .

except for the BRIBERY of elected officials they've supplied over decades!!

[suzie]

99. So where are the votes for universal health care?

Why hasn't Dennis Kucinich gotten it passed during the time he's been in Congress?

[Raineyb]

104. It hasn't even been put out. The people who were trying to bring it to the

attention of congress were arrested. So don't act like they tried to put it out and it failed because that's a goddamn lie.

[defendandprotect]

203. In fact, polls show that the public want a government run health care plan by large majority...

AND, that includes Catholics who also want any government run health plan

to also include reproductive care -- pre-natal/post-natal -- and CONTRACEPTION

and ABORTION.

When Latino and Latina Catholics are included, the majorities are even higher!!

[felinetta]

23. I have no use for Kucinichi and Moore anymore if they are willing to throw people who need immediate

help.  Does Kucinich really think we can get another bill in a
matter of weeks or a few months.
What an asshat.

[defendandprotect]

78. The only thing "immediate" is paying for it -- the care doesn't begin for 3-4 years!!!

[NorthCarolina]

107. I'd say it's a safe bet that you never cared much for them to begin with.

"Kucinichi" ? :eyes:

[jonathon]

25. Everything needs a start? This isn't a start, it is ENSLAVEMENT to CIGNA & Blue Cross Blue Shield

This bill is the health industry version of the Wall St bank bailouts.

This will NOT fix the health care system. It is MANDATING the system that created this health care crisis.

That is not an argument to Moore and Dennis -

It is a quip.

[tridim]

42. So you think these companies are happy they're going to be regulated..

for the first time in American history?

If so, why are they spending millions to stop it?

[Fumesucker]

54. California has already given up on regulating Anthem Blue Cross..

California has such a small and weak government that they cannot hold Anthem Blue Cross to the regulations that already exist..

I'm sure that the strong and large governments of places like Alabama and Kansas will do much better. :eyes:

[tridim]

63. That's one of the many reasons why the bill should pass.

States that are broke can't afford to do lots of things that protect their people from being raped by corporations. That will change starting next week.

[Fumesucker]

66. Right..

This is going to put huge money in the coffers of the states so they can properly regulate the insurance companies..

There's an app for that.. :rofl:

[tridim]

69. You have no idea what this bill is.

Maybe you should read it?

At the very least read a summary.

[Fumesucker]

72. I said it was going to put huge money in the state coffers..

Apparently you think I'm wrong..

[defendandprotect]

88. It's corporate power which has raped our states . . .!!!

And you're saying the remedy is more corporate power???

This is a class based system -- based on INCOME TESTING -- an old GOP gimmick

to turn clients into "welfare recipients" -- !!!

Let's treat every citizen equally -- UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE FOR ALL, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT!!

[tridim]

95. No, I'm not saying "more corporate power"

Where did you even come up with that?

[defendandprotect]

103. Obama/Rahma are saying "more corporate power" in this bill . . .

Corporatism . . . well loved by this administration!!

Harmful to humans!!

[tridim]

115. Nope.

Please read the bill or a summary.

[defendandprotect]

206. Insurance companies are still in control of health care . . .

Show me where you see anything different?

If they are IN, they are in control --

Especially without competitition from government --

No one here has amnesia -- we well know the behavior of the insurance industry --

Recall that Obama calls them "evil."

Then why is he forcing Americans to sign up with them?

Why is he forcing them into our health care?

Let's see how the DLC might spin that -- "EVIL" shouldn't be the enemy of the more evil?

[defendandprotect]

207. dupe --

This will not be government run health care --

Show me where you see anything different?

If they are IN, they are in control --

Especially without competition from government --

No one here has amnesia -- we well know the behavior of the insurance industry --

Recall that Obama calls them "evil."

Then why is he forcing Americans to sign up with them?

Why is he forcing them into our health care?

Let's see how the DLC might spin that -- "EVIL" shouldn't be the enemy of the more evil?

[defendandprotect]

85. The way to regulate them is with COMPETION . . . from government ...

Corporations have no business in health care --

Health care is a human right -- not an opportunity for profit --

Plus we need a system that treats everyone equally -- not based on INCOME TESTING

an old GOP gimmick to turn some recipients into "welfare" clients --

Not only would we be susidizing the clinent to pay the insurance company bill, it

is subsidy to the insurance company!! Clients they never would have had!!


This is NOT universal health care -- it's another form of privatization of government

compliments of Obama/Rahma ...

[defendandprotect]

79. +1000% . . .

[defendandprotect]

80. This health care bill is a coup for corporatism . . . a gift from Obama/Rahma . . .

[leftstreet]

142. +1

[grahamhgreen]

156. It's so obvious, why don't they see this bait-and-switch???

[defendandprotect]

208. They're the pro-corporate DLC . . . corporate wing of the Democratic Party!!

[defendandprotect]

36. How is it that US can't do what every other nation has done? UNIVERSAL health care???

That is, every American treated equally?

No income testing --

No high risk pool --

No insurance companies --

No protections for Big Pharma --

Simply health care for every American?

Cementing corporations into health care is a bad idea NOW --

and will an even worse idea if GOP should ever retake power!!

This bill is a distortion of Health Care Reform -- based on needs of corporations --

not the needs of the public.

As long as we have a "for profit" health care system, we will be treating Americans

unequally.

Bad ideas don't improve with age --

[Echo In Light]

45. Evil Empire, that's why

[Amonester]

164. In Canada, we have no income testing and no high risk pool.

But we still have insurance companies.

They insure some 'extra' stuff (like private bedroom at Hospitals, and other stuff not covered by the 'basic' universal plan).

And they also insure employees dental plans or out-of-job recovery periods, depending on their employer's benefit plans.

But they're not allowed to 'touch' the 'basic' universal pool.

Medicare for all, and IF people want 'extra' comfort (and can afford the premiums), good for them.

[defendandprotect]

209. Thank you -- that's very valuable to know . . .

I'm sure that you can see that our President/Congress have been very busy

here reinventing the wheel!!!

:rofl:

[robinblue]

180. "Cementing corporations into health care is a bad idea NOW -- " I agree, and

Pres. Obama started it all by saying at his first WH summit that he wanted to base his "reform" on an uniquely American idea.

[defendandprotect]

210. Yeah . . . capitalism is uniquely corrupt/criminal idea which has been

commiting its crimes and spreading its corruptions all over the world for a few

hundred years!! Time to MoveOn!

Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move the wealth and

natural resources of nations from the many to the few --

succeeds at that quite well!!

[branders seine]

61. I'm cold

I think I'll burn my house down.

[Gman]

82. I'm sure Kucinich and Moore will smile

[freddie mertz]

136. I wish this woman well, but despise the way her struggle is being exploited...

By the president that I voted for.

So far as I can tell, under the new system, she would still have to throw herself into poverty to get affordable "coverage" (in the form of Medicaid).

In other words, nothing really changes for people like this.

Which is a pity, and a crime.

As for the president's cynical manipulation of her case yesterday in Ohio... that frankly made me sick.

I cannot even watch him anymore.

[Vinca]

138. Natoma will have a pre-existing condition and won't have an opportunity

at coverage for 4 years. As Michael Moore noted, thousands upon thousands are going to die in the interim and their only crime is living in the United States of America. "Debt reduction" has become the focus of the entire bill, not death reduction.

[freddie mertz]

140. I saw that too. Made me sick with rage.

We have met the "Death Panel," and it is the mandated insurance legislation now before congress.

[mzmolly]

143. Her tragedy isn't being exploited. She wrote him to demonstrate how people like herself

will be helped by the new legislation.

[freddie mertz]

146. I saw the speech. She is being exploited.

I hope she gets some help, thanks to the publicity.

Because it seems that the new bill will do little or nothing to help her, at least as I understand it.

[mzmolly]

147. So says yourself and Faux news.

She asked to have her story considered and agreed to have it told. If it struck a nerve with the "no" voters, good.

[freddie mertz]

158. I never watch Fox News.

But it is no surprise that the Puke Squad would pick up on it.

Doesn't mean it wasn't exploitative... just that Faux is now exploiting the event for their own purposes.

[Hippo_Tron]

173. In other words you think she's too ignorant to know what's good for her

[Raineyb]

179. Isn't that what the people cheering this bill been telling those of us who say

this bill won't help us?

When they're not telling us that we hate sick people?

[defendandprotect]

211. I very much -- and sadly -- agree with you . .

[Change Happens]

149. MM was also wrong about the facts...........nt

[defendandprotect]

212. No he wasn't . .

[grahamhgreen]

155. THIS BILL WILL NOT HELP NATOMA CANFIELD - THAT IS THE ISSUE!!! nt

[freddie mertz]

159. Stop Making Sense!

[grahamhgreen]

161. This says she WILL NOT be covered!!!!!

"An individual shall be deemed to be an eligible... if such individual—

has not been covered under creditable coverage ... during the 6-month period prior to the date on which such individual is applying for coverage..."

She WAS covered just a month ago, so she is NOT eligible - which is the whole problem with this monstrosity - there is so much verbiage that it will be construed to mean whatever the team of lawyers hired by big insurance wants it to mean.

WE MUST HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE TO BIG INSURANCE!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7928444&mesg_id=7928599

[Greyhound]

162. The Big Lie. This is the issue they spend all their time dancing around and trying

to distract from this basic reality.

The insurance industry has more money and more power than the government and they will fight every one of the provisions of this monstrosity for as long as it takes. She and all of us in similar situations will be cast aside to die in the "poor people's hospital", while the corporations continue to drive inflation in the system, hike premiums and cut service.

[Gman]

163. LOL! At one time this post had at least +10 recs

Just goes to show what the immature and childish here at DU will do to something they don't want to hear.

[Raineyb]

166. Or it could have something to do with your message?

Calling people spoiled brats and bragging about how you got yours (and don't give a shit about those who don't) is a good way to get unrec'd.

Oh and K&U

I don't like shills.

[Gman]

167. LOL!

No, it's more about the fact that some people just don't want to hear the truth.

[Raineyb]

172. You're right. YOU don't like hearing the truth. That's why you call those who tell it to you

spoiled brats.

[G_j]

170. well

I didn't give this an unrec until you called those who don't agree w/ you, spoiled brats.


just sayin'

[Gman]

185. LOL! It don't matter!

That's why I like the unrec feature anyway!

[thotzRthingz]

169. "Kucinich & Moore are wrong"? They're SPOT ON! KILL IT, or give us a no-restrictions public option!

[Individualist]

181. You're wrong; they're right.

Fuck the DLC!

[slipslidingaway]

216. "She isn't from Kucinich's district. She is from Medina - the 16th

... John Boccieri's district. My Congressman - freshman Dem that also voted "no" We've been calling and writing him... and a lot of pressure is being put on him locally. Hopefully he will change his vote."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7933442&mesg_id=7933773

[eridani]

223. A lot of people share the delusion that the bill is going to do something for them.

Being forced to buy a shitty product that will not pay for the care she is getting isn't going to help her.