PROGRESS is NOT just passing a bill

[Nikki Stone1]

It's about doing the right thing. This health insurance giveaway is simply a mandate, a siphon for all of our piddly income to wealthy insurance firms.

Real progress is doing what's right.

You can't redefine it as getting a bill passed regardless of its consequences.

[suffragette]

1. K&R

[polpilot]

38. THIS IS PROGRESS. REAL PROGRESS. PROGRESS ONE CAN DEFINE.

FOR THE INSURANCE COMPANIES!!!!! Health Insurance NOW...Healthcare....maybe later...maybe not.

[suffragette]

43. Health insurance does not equal health care

Especially when it is provided or denied based on profits to gatekeepers who depend on denial (whether outright or through outrageous pricing) to make their profit.

[Nikki Stone1]

111. Exactly

.

[suffragette]

123. Standing right with you, Nikki

:hug:

What other industry is built on denial of services/product? And that's what we want to entrench as being in charge?
NO!

I noticed the big talking point being endlessly trotted out yesterday was that we had to change the status quo. Yet, I view this as maintaining and strengthening the status quo of the insurance companies being the ornery gatekeepers to health care.

[Skidmore]

2. I'm so sick of this argument.

Status quo is just hunky dory. Give me some more of the status quo. Love me some status quo.

If this bill sinks, healthcare reform of any type will not be revisited for another generation.

[zipplewrath]

3. If it does health CARE reform won't either

Basically, at this point, the well is so poisoned, that regardless, no congress critter will touch the subject for another generation. Heck, it took 16 years just to get here.

[Nikki Stone1]

6. And I'm sick of a bad, bad bill being touted as reform

And being told to toe the line when our own Democrats have sold us out to the insurance industry and big pharma.

[polpilot]

41. HOW are you going to get healthcare but through the gatekeepers of ins. & big pharma??

Maybe..move to a more enlightened country & get healthcare at 50% off sale...every day?

[kenfrequed]

94. Uhm

Oddly there is this magical program called medicare (and I don't mean part D) whereby patients recieve medication benefits without insurance. Don't ask me how it works as it must surely be some impossible program from an enlightened planet far off revolving around a red sun.


Seriously, you fell just short of saying "America Love it or Leave it."

[Maraya1969]

106. You can't just walk into a social security off and ask for medicare!!!!!!!!!

I personally know the bullshit you have to maneuver through to get medical insurance from the state and it is not pretty. I even had a worker that basically told me in a certain way that I would have to lie about certain things in order to qualify and that is with other qualifications. (And frankly I've never spoken about this on any forum because I was afraid I would lose benefits but I think I am safe now with a certain new system they have me on.

People think it is so easy to get medicare. Well they are wrong. And for many people I know they have tried and gotten nowhere.

[kenfrequed]

110. Wait a minute there luv...

I was busily defending the idea of getting state care. The person I was replying to was pretending that ALL healthcare somehow only came from insurance companies and seemed to be suggesting that this is the only route by which healthcare could come to us.

My post was not meant to actually suggest that it was easy to apply for it but that it existed in our nation. We just need to pass Medicare for all and then everyone would automatically qualify for it.

[Maraya1969]

114. Oh. Sorry.

[Nikki Stone1]

118. :)

:)

[emilyg]

91. +10

[DJ13]

7. If this bill passes they wont feel a need to revisit it either

[kenny blankenship]

40. Sure they will. Those subsidies won't magically increase by themselves!

there will always be a little favor the insurance boys need from Congress- and are willing to pay for.

Just look at the amounts insurance co.s spend on lobbying vs. the huge subsidies they'll be getting every year. Their lobbying bill may be larger compared to other industries, but it's paltry compared to the rewards at stake. They could up their spending by an order of magnitude and not even feel it. There's plenty of room for this relationship to grow!

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. IOW, if congress throws enough money at the insurance companies

some of it might trickle back to us as health care?

[dflprincess]

82. No. The subsidies only cover premium costs

you'll still be on the hook for out of pocket expenses. You'll only have access to health care if you can afford to pay those.

[Nikki Stone1]

And I'm sick of a bad, bad bill being touted as reform

And being told to toe the line when our own Democrats have sold us out to the insurance industry and big pharma.

[ChiciB1]

88. Something I Posted Elsewhere... The Problem That ISN'T Being Talked

about is HOW MUCH it may cost to have insurance that can't be denied because of pre-existing conditions. I have YET to hear HOW MUCH it will cost for that luxury! I'm betting that even IF this is a law, the insurance companies or powers that be, will be charging a hefty fee for this. Or even if there will be FULL coverage given!

I "may" have missed it, but I haven't seen/heard about cost regulations on insurance companies and the like for extending benefits! Not only that, the time frame is down the road and it worries me that THESE very same people won't STOP trying to gouge anyone they can!

I go to one doctor who has decided not to take ANY insurance anymore, especially Medicare! He used to have 4 office workers and took Medicare and other insurance. Now he will only accept cash and has ONE office worker. Granted his fees now are a "little" smaller, and I have to file my own insurance claim, but I'm wondering how long it will be before many other doctors follow him. Plus, when you go out of network and you are told you will only have to pay 30%, that's not actually true! The re-reimbursement you get is ONLY 30% of what the insurance company deems allowable! Are there any provisions in this HCR that addresses this problem? I haven't seen/heard that either. But I HAVEN'T read the whole thing, but the WHOLE thing has yet to be presented! I think we are walking with blinders on to some extent! Guess I'm just a cynical pessimist! Never was before, but now... well s--t happens!

Both my daughter & son-in-law are critical care nurses and tell me many stories that are VERY SCARY! Won't go into them now, but "trust" isn't something I feel about HCR right now! If you only get 40% of a bill paid by insurance, and that bill is in the thousands, what good will it do?

And to say they will re-visit and improve is something I don't have much faith in. NAFTA comes to mind!

Just thinking and wondering how GOOD this is going to work out!!

[followthemoney]

89. COBRA can't be denied.

All you need to do is come up with BIG money to pay for it and the co-payments. That is after you have lost your job, health insurance, and your health.

The corporate party bastards mock the people with plans like these.

[ChiciB1]

107. But Doesn't COBRA Run Out In A Short Length Of Time?? I Don't Know

how my doctor gets around it, but I KNOW what he said to me. I also know that I rarely wait very long to see him anymore! Has less patients, but seems like a much happier fellow!

He's about 67 and I suppose he could retire, but don't think he's going to. I've been seeing him for many years and he asked me if I would stay with him and he promised to write my scripts for 3 months at a time, when before I HAD to see him EVERY month because of some of the meds I take.

As long as he writes one script with 2 refills he gets around those extra visits. I like NOT having to see him every month, so I decided to stay with him. In the long run, I save money too!

[Nikki Stone1]

8. Dupe deleted.

.

[Nikki Stone1]

9. Dupe deleted.

.

[CrispyQ]

31. Nikki, are you sick of it?

;)

I'm sick of it too. We will have further entrenched the for-profit insurance companies, the very ones who are largely responsible for the fucking mess our health care system is today, into our already failed system. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Nikki Stone1]

57. Exactly. As Michael Moore said "the profit motive will still dictate everything. "

"The profit motive will still dictate everything. The insurance companies will still be in charge."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x443399

[CrispyQ]

71. Thanks for the link.

I didn't know this!

Even.. You know what this bill says if they deny you coverage? Let's say they actually just say go ahead and say deny you because of a pre-existing condition, the fine is $100 a day. Per individual you have denied. So just think about that. The insurance company is going 'So, for a year, that would 36,500 dollars, but the operation is going to cost $100,000. You know what? I think we'll take the fine.'"

Gasp! It reminds me of a Stephen Segal movie where the Kris Kristofferson character's company was dumping toxic chemicals in this local community. When they took him to court, the court fined him $25,000. He laughed - it was such a small amount. It was nothing compared to the amount of money they saved by dumping their waste where they wanted.

I'm also appalled that dems are applauding a bill that has sex & age discrimination written into it. This is not the democratic party that I joined when I was 18.

[dflprincess]

10. This bill reenforces the status quo by digging the insurance companies in deeper

It has nothing to do with health care and everything to do with bailing out an industry that will price itself into collapse if it's not handed a whole lot of new victims customers and tax in government money.

For what we'll be handing these crooks in subsidies and out of pocket premiums, we could have had a system that gave us all access to health care.

[polpilot]

42. It is AMAZING to me that DUers will get down on their knees to the insurance industry. AMAZING.

November will be cold in more ways than one...and many here will be to blame.

[RaleighNCDUer]

90. And they do that, of course, because they are themselves TERRIFIED

at the thought of losing THEIR insurance.

The fear campaign has worked.

[Oregone]

13. Im sick of that argument too

No one likes the status quo. No one likes sustaining it indefinitely either

"If this bill {passes}, healthcare reform of any type will not be revisited for another generation."

[Marr]

14. Says who? I would say that this bill is designed to *prevent* meaningful

healthcare reform from occurring for another generation. It's grafting a corrupt industry onto the government-- one that should really be regulated out of existence. Good luck disentangling the monster once it's become the official center of health care. It'll be like getting rid of the Pentagon.

[inna]

23. +1

[mvd]

29. You're right that..

the insurance companies are what is making the system not work. The bill is like a band-aid when we need a complete recontruction of the system. I will take the short term benefits for those uninsured, but progressives must keep up the pressure or not much will change long term.

[Jamastiene]

34. That is what I am afraid of.

Once they pass this current legislation, will we start hearing a chorus of "now it's solved, moving on, stfu about health care now?" Meanwhile, what good might come from this bill for a few will be stripped out by overzealous right wingers with too much power in their home states.

I know how our current political system works. It seems that is what happens all too often. So, basically, on the one hand, what might have been good in the bill will get stripped out over time and on the other hand, the other parts of the bill that sincerely need to be fixed never get revisited.

[kenny blankenship]

51. What was the rallying cry of real reformers? "There are 47 million Americans w/o insurance!"

Now they will say -what?

There are 17 million Americans without insurance and 30 million with insurance that's no good because it's still priced too high for them to actually make use of.

Doesn't work. It doesn't have the bite anymore. You've deflected the problem without doing anything about curing cause of the disease. Thanks a pantload, guys.

You want to keep going? OK. Let's game it out:

Us: There are 17 million Americans without insurance and 30 million with insurance that's no good because it's still priced too high for them to actually make use of.

Them: Wow, that's confusing. What a mouthful! Are you sure you know what you want to say?

Us: Yes, we're saying the problem is substantially the same despite 800 billion dollars in subsidies paid into the insurance racketeers' pockets. People who can't afford much can't afford their insurance, and what they have doesn't work. But they are forced under threat of prosecution to buy it anyway. They still stay home sick when they should go see a doctor, and they still go bankrupt when they get sick. And not just the working poor but wealthier people too. Overall we pay too much and get little for it!

Them: Oh you say the subsidies aren't large enough? Oh we can fix that, we'll just pay the insurance wiseguys some more. Let's up it to 120 billion a year. 120 ought to smooth things over and keep everyone happy -everyone who matters...

Us: No, no, no. The problem is the system is diseased. It produces bad medicine and denies access as a symptom of that disease. You can shovel more money at it, but it always finds a way to "need" more. There are still over ten million people without insurance and over twenty with worthless "insurance" - that isn't making them well. That isn't health CARE, it's just a piece of paper and a hole in their budget. Meanwhile costs for everyone keep rising... Other countries STILL pay just a fraction of what we're paying and cover everyone with superior health outcomes - this whole approach is going nowhere.

Them: Wait, you said the problem was that lower income people weren't receiving care. Let's stick to the problem. We'll just vote MORE SUBSIDY MONEY for our patrons in the insurance companies and that should shut you up. You aren't saying we should cover these people - and then refusing to pay for it are you? That would be HYPOCRITICAL. No, we'll just up the subsidies and the "problem", if there is any, will be fixed...

Us: YOU'RE THE FUCKING PROBLEM. We could spend LESS than we're spending now and achieve far better results for everyone - just not for your friends in the Mafia. We've tried it your way -their way- for two generations already and it has yet to fix ANYTHING. We just have to adopt a sane, proven system - it's actually easy since other countries have already done the experimenting for us while we sat on our ass. It's very clear what works and what's most efficient and equitable...

Them: It sounds to me like you don't want to fix the so-called problems of the people whom you supposedly care about. You're just waving your arms around in the air and talking about how they used to do it back in the Soviet Union or whatever. No. We'll just raise the subsidies. We don't need Karl Marx here. Our system is fine in spite of what you say.

Us: All we're saying is look at what other large democracies have done - France, Canada, Britain! They aren't commies over there. There are common denominators to their success. They remove profit taking middlemen from the center of their systems, they cover everyone, they do it for LESS, and they live longer...

Them: We're passing higher subsidies now, uh, thanks for your input all the same (dirty fucking hippie). Taxpayers and insurance customers don't seem to mind the "inefficiency and malfeasance" you obsess over. And as long as they don't know any better - and can't find Canada on a map, much less France- we're happy to keep fucking them 'til their eyes bug out. Besides Higher cost means better care! If you were a moderate responsible market-based thinker you'd understand that without needing an explanation. We've always done it this way here and always will. LallalLallala go away now, can't hear you.

[sabrina 1]

53. Very well said n/t

[liberation]

75. Aren't moving goalposts fun?

That is a nutshell the MO I have witnessed from those trying to defend this POS bill.

I have seen quicksand hold stronger and more consistent positions than some of the people trying to shovel this crappy bill down our throats. What made me truly disgusted is that in the end they were so desperate to justify this hubris, that they started using the plight of the millions of uninsured as the shield and justification for their crappy bill. That scares the shit out of me. People are so blinded and willing to walk in lockstep that they will use those in the most precarious situations as a justification.

The rabid reaction against Kucinich when he dared speak up as to why this was a bad bill, sealed the deal for me. Whatever this is in its current incarnation, it ain't the Democratic party my parents told me about. When supposed Dems start using the "love or leave it, dear leader knows best" argument, I became deeply disillusioned at the realization that really it is just the same fecal matter, it is just the sphincter that changed.

[slipslidingaway]

30. +2 n/t

[GreenArrow]

55. You've got it down cold.

That's exactly what it's for.

[Nikki Stone1]

64. BRAVO!

I agree!

[Individualist]

17. I'm sick of DLC's failed attempts to mislead.

[suffragette]

19. You mean the status quo of for -profit insurance companies

who profit by denying or minimizing care being in control of who and how we receive health care in the U.S.?

I'm certainly sick of this sick system, and I don't see the current bill as substantially changing that for the better.

[Ignis]

25. Please look up "false dichotomy." (nt)

[sendero]

32. If this piece of shit..

... passes, we'll be stuck with it for generations because Dems will be out of power for generations.

[LibDemAlways]

67. Once the R's take over we won't be stuck with this particular bill. They'll

strip it of anything that does anybody any good and leave the public with mandates. That's what we'll be stuck with. Our only hope is that the courts rule this POS unconstitutional.

[kenny blankenship]

37. You're going to feel even sicker in November

[polpilot]

45. Really. Realy. Obama will have provided a miracle. A system even more f***up than before.

[DisgustedInMN]

60. Bull shit.

Show me any law that forbids the introduction of legislation on ANY issue, in ANY session of Congress. Your lie won't play, or as it's said, that dog don't hunt.

[Nikki Stone1]

61. Thank you for kicking this post.

Appreciate it. :hi:

[DisgustedInMN]

62. Not a problem.

BTW, I happen to agree with you completely, passing a bill isn't even close to enough. It's always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS about doing the right thing, and I don't mean the politically expedient thing.

[daleanime]

74. Then take it one step further...

If we can't change the status guo now, how we going to change it later when our opposite is richer and now has (thanks to the Suckall Court) the right to spend any thing it wants to against us?

[Maraya1969]

105. I totally agree. And I think some people are not looking into the future and the

ramifications to the Democratic if this bill does not pass. I believe if it passes amendment will start right away but if it fails there is no way it will get a change again for many years, (yes and maybe a generation,) and I cannot believe people do not see this).


If it were that bad why are all the Republicans fighting it so hard?

[backwoodsbob]

108. the problem is that this is the status quo AND

forces everyone to participate in it.

how is this progress?

[Individualist]

4. K&R

[YOY]

5. QED: NAFTA.

I seem to remember much of the same language going back and forth.

It will bite us in the ass if we don't do it right.

The Repugs will rail about what a failure it is...and of course do nothing to change it.

[Nikki Stone1]

11. NAFTA was never a good thing for this country

Some of us actually agreed with Ross Perot on that. Lots of the "giant sucking sound" these days.

[YOY]

12. But much of the same language was used.

Really my point. Get in line. It's good for us. Blah blah blah...until it all backfired like a mofo.

[Nikki Stone1]

15. Ah, I see

You're right on about that.

You know when there's a real emergency, no one will believe it.

[liberation]

76. Bingo! Also don't forget the Patriot Act, FISA, the Gramm-Leach-Bliley act...

Funny, those are all awful bills that got "awfuler" with time, not "better."

Our civil rights are still curtailed, we no longer have any privacy in our communications, and the banking industry is as deregulated as ever... even after the Gramm act led us to the worst economic cataclysm since the great depression.

And yet the DLCers are telling us with a straight face to believe them, not our lying eyes.


Enough already! It gets really annoying to be lectured by people who are trying to justify ever diminishing standards as the bees knees.

[saracat]

16. Amen. I am sick of this faux argument.

[Nikki Stone1]

20. Progressives have never been about lining private corporate pockets

Anyone who calls on progressives to pass this bill doesn't understand what progressivism is.

[FrenchieCat]

18. Progress is not Not passing a bill

and advocating that there is no difference between
doing nothing and doing something that
95% of progressives, including prominent progressive public figures support.

In this case, doing nothing is actually taking steps backwards.
Its regressive. That's why that is what the Teabaggers want;
because they are a regressive group....and want to regress us
back to the 1950s, if they have their way....
which some here appear to support indirectly by actually providing
arguments to their same end.

[liberation]

77. In other words, we should not believe our lying eyes...

"95% of progressives" LOL

The teabaggers are coming, boooooooo. So scary! The perennial crying wolf as the only political value proposition by the DLC lost its moxie a while back... Wanna update your MO.

[RainDog]

21. I've come to the conclusion that it's something of a shit sandwich either way

this is the reality of life in politics in the U.S., it seems.

I do accept the premise that having something is, theoretically, better than having nothing in terms of a health care bill. It is true that better leg. cannot come about without something in place.

However, what's in place scares me. It makes me think that people will be no better off and there is no guarantee that positive changes can occur. It still makes health care unaffordable for too many - specifically women and children who are traditionally in the lowest wealth ranges - I'm talking about working poor and middle class.

If people opposed are going to howl and scream and rant no matter what, why couldn't this bill be something better? Do the nutters provide "cover" for those who want to play sides against one another while giving away the store to the insurance and pharma cos?

There is a reason I could never be a butcher. I cannot stand to see how the sausage is made, apparently.

And I don't want to have it on my table when I see that process either.

[liberation]

79. It is a shit sandwich for sure. It is just that the DLC et al love to pretend progressives

main issue with that sandwich is the choice of bread.

Also, as far as I remember, I was promised "hope" / "change" / "yes we can." Not "slightly less awful" / "same old same old because it is what it is" / "what can you do? it is too hard and we need to be pragmatic about it, so let's not rock the boat lest it hurt the sensibilities of those who created this clusterfuck."


The fact that politics are messy should not be used as an excuse to do the exact wrong thing. And specially not after some douche just campaigned on cleaning up the mess in DC, and now they are using that very same mess to justify their lack of results. Think of it as you hiring a contractor who promised he would be the best suited to fix your leaky roof, only to have him tell you that the "leaky roof" was real messy, thus he only patched one of the hundreds of leaks, because well... it is a messy roof and it is real "hard" work. Well, no shit... that is why you hired him, because it was a hard job and he told you he was the best suited to do it. I wonder how many of you would be willing to pay the contractor for such a half assed job.

[Ozymanithrax]

22. Progress is about enacting a bill that provides real benefits that improve the lives of

Americans.

This bill does that.

Siding with the Health Insurance Companies and the GOP to kill the bill because it isn't good enough does not improve the lives of anyone. Voting that way is not progress and it isn't progressive.

[slipslidingaway]

27. What did the insurance companies want - an individual mandate with no PO...

this is not universal health care that the Dems spoke about, they took that off the table. The Dems did the same thing under Clinton.

:(


They Won! Repost - They're Winning - Private insurance companies push for 'individual mandate'

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/slipslidingaway/236

"As momentum gains for reforms, insurers hope to turn it to their advantage by supporting a proposal that everyone buy coverage. It would be a boost for the industry, which has seen enrollment decline."

June 07, 2009

Lisa Girion

"...But this time, it turns out, the health insurance industry has good reason to support at least some change: It needs it. Private health insurance faces a bleak future if the proposal they champion most vigorously -- a requirement that everyone buy medical coverage -- is not adopted.

...Insurers do not embrace all of the healthcare restructuring proposals. But they are fighting hard for a purchase requirement, sweetened with taxpayer-funded subsidies for customers who can't afford to buy it on their own, and enforced with fines.


...The industry's real trouble begins in 2011, when 79 million baby boomers begin turning 65. Health insurers stand to lose a huge slice of their commercially insured enrollment (estimated at 162 million to 172 million people) over the next two decades to Medicare, the government-funded health insurance program for seniors..."

[NorthCarolina]

35. but, but, but...this is a "Uniquely American Solution" nt

[aaronbav]

36. America - formerly the "land of opportunity" now

the "land of the opportunist"

[slipslidingaway]

44. That is what Karen Ignagni of AHIP said! n/t

[NorthCarolina]

46. Obama said it too. Not sure who said it first, or who was parroting who though. eom

[NICO9000]

95. You got that right!

And by "uniquely American" we mean "go fuck yourselves, unique Americans!" This country stopped doing the right thing in the 80s, and ain't about to change course any time soon.

[Egnever]

119. I had to pay for my healthcare before this bill

I will still have to pay for it after. Maybe I should say I will still have to pay for my insurance after. I would have had to pay higher taxes if it was single payer. Anyway you look at it we have to pay.

At least now I can no longer be held at a job because of fear of losing my insurance nor will I ever have to worry again about my son not being able to get insurance despite him having diabetes.

These two things alone make this bill worthwhile to me.

Theres lots more I am quite happy about with this bill, but you just want to rail against insurance companies so I'll leave you to it.

[Jester Messiah]

24. So it's not "real" enough for you. Let's not do anything until we have your seal of approval. [nt]

[laughingliberal]

26. K & R, Nikki!

We've truly gone through the looking glass.

[slipslidingaway]

28. knr thanks! n/t

[freddie mertz]

33. K & R. We really could and have done much, much better.

Obama promised "transparency" but has given us back room deals and cynical rhetoric instead.

Strange days indeed.

[GreenArrow]

56. "Strange days indeed"

Not really. Same old shit.

[freddie mertz]

63. It's a John Lennon quote.

Sums up the whole era rather well I think.

[GreenArrow]

73. yep, "most peculiar mama."

I know the song; I just think it's business as usual.

But here are a couple of Lennon quotes I'd be more inclined to agree with:

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."

"I'm sick and tired of hearing things
From uptight, shortsighted, narrow-minded hypocrites
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
I've had enough of reading things
By neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians
All I want is the truth"

[FiveGoodMen]

39. SO recommended!

[cherokeeprogressive]

47. I think it's more about one man's legacy than it ever was about progress.

Even "The Swarm" here at DU makes it more about Obama than about what's right for the country.

[Eyerish]

48. K&R

[gleaner]

49. An entirely correct assessment ....

It doesn't seem that this administration or the people and entities which support it care too much about doing the right thing anymore, if they ever did.

[ProSense]

50. Here:

Progress.

[MellowDem]

52. Wrong...

It is somewhat about passing a bill, believe it or not. We will be better off with this bill I believe. Insurance companies don't want it for a reason. It more heavily regulates them, and it also paves the road for more regulation and a public option down the road. The opposite happening, meaning this bill gets shot down and no health care reform passes at all, could mean another decade before it even comes to the table. And a lot of people will die needlessly if that happens

You can't redefine it as stopping a bill regardless of its consequences.

[Nikki Stone1]

54. So, to you, passing a bad bill is progress?

Really?

"It more heavily regulates them": No it does not. Read the actual language of the bill. I have read quite a bit of it.

"could mean another decade before it even comes to the table" Can we not have talking points? A bill like this should never return.

[liberation]

80. Apparently, some people find it easier to redefine what "progress" is...

than to actually do the right thing. Because that is "hard work" don't you know?

[MellowDem]

116. "Progress"...

never all happens at once. Stopping progress because it's not a perfect bill is the definition of stupidity.

[MellowDem]

115. Define "bad bill"...

I've read it, and it DOES more heavily regulate the insurance companies. Why are they against it otherwise? Meanwhile, waiting until we can get single payer means a lot more people will die in the meantime. Stopping insurance companies from denying coverage for pre-existing conditions is regulation. To deny that this bill doesn't more heavily regulate insurance is pretty much the definition of "talking point".

[New Dawn]

58. K&R - FUCK the Fascist "Individual Mandate"!

[Nikki Stone1]

113. Amen.

.

[Dragonfli]

59. K&R I can't even afford the fines

and medical care could have extended my life another ten years (or so the doctor I can no longer afford to see told me).
This "help" is something I could do without, now I will be criminalized as well as terminal because I work for a living and can't work enough to cover my bills anymore due to my ailment.

If I can't afford the insurance and the out of pocket what makes them think I can pay the new poor tax that will go to wealthy CEOs?

Fuck them all and their bullshit.
I hope they enjoy their victory, it will not help those of us they claim it will.
It will "help" to kill me and I doubt I am very unique.

Thank you for stating the truth unapologetically.
I have grown too tired to even scream about it anymore.

[Nikki Stone1]

65. Me neither

And thank you!

[colsohlibgal]

68. Agreed

Leaving these bloodsucking leeches in place to still make their small fortunes at our expense is reform? Whoa, Webster's must have the definition of that word wrong.

[Dawgs]

69. Great. Another post that ignores the good of this bill.

:(

[Egnever]

120. Its like her third or fourth for the day

[Richardo]

70. So progress is doing nothing?

Because that's you're only other choice. Even Kucinich knows that. Now.

[provis99]

101. and you define progress as going backwards.

This bill is worse than doing nothing.

[Richardo]

109. Many millions will disagree with that.

[Stinky The Clown]

72. Actually, you *can* redefine things and call it progress

You're witnessing it right before your very eyes.

They really do think you're stupid, you know.

Plus, they don't care about you.

But I get your point and I agree with it.

[OhioChick]

78. K&R n/t

[elocs]

81. A journey is not one step, but it begins with one.

Just because one step is not the entire journey does not make it worthless. The trouble with not being satisfied with anything less than perfection is that it leads to a life of disappointment.

[EFerrari]

83. Mandating insurance is not a step towards perfection.

lol

[dflprincess]

84. Digging the insurance companies deeper into the system is not progress by any definition

What we needed was to reform how health care is accessed in this country. Instead we got a bill that keeps the same old crooks in charge of that access the only "reform" being that we'll be required to buy their crappy products.

It's just another bail out for a corrupt industry that would collapse on its own if it wasn't handed a captive group of customers along with the promise of billions of tax dollars in the form of subsidies. Meanwhile it will continue to allow large out of pocket expenses so it does nothing to guarantee that we will actually be able to afford care when we need it.

[fascisthunter]

86. how dare you expect us to be satisfied with a fascist bill

you folks will say anything, because ya just don't seem to care.

[backtomn]

85. Be Careful...... ( :

You might be considered a Republican shill by some on this site. Asking that we actually "reform" this industry appears to be gone. We will be thrown a few bones on this......bones for which there was significant Republican support (portability, pre-existing conditions, cost redustions). What is it that we stand for??

[Cleita]

87. According to Wendell Potter, the whistleblower ex-Cigna exec, the

chickens will come home to roost. It's inevitable because this legislation was written by the industry for their benefit. It will in time collapse under it's own weight, then Congress will have to go back to the table and get it right. He said this some time ago, but his words still ring in my mind. Hopefully when the time comes for the re-write, we will have a new and more progressive Congress after the people of the USA vote out all the DINOs and Republicans.

[Laelth]

92. Hear, hear! This bill is not progress. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[NoodleyAppendage]

93. You better watch it or the DLC plants will swamp you with empty rebuttals! n/t

J

[Juche]

96. This bill expands public healthcare, has nonprofit options & tries to regulate private insurance

You aren't including those things in your criticism of the bill.

It will expand public plans like medicaid and close the medicare donut hole. It will also expand community health centers for primary care and mental health care


It has a nonprofit option in the exchange

It has regulations to fight abuses from insurance companies. Denials for preexisting conditions, rescissions, lifetime/annual caps, etc.



Some people act like the fact that this bill doesn't have a public option means the whole thing is shit. That isn't remotely true.

[Nikki Stone1]

97. It's actually taking money AWAY from public healthcare (Medicare and Medicaid)

What "public healthcare" are you talking about?

[Juche]

100. It takes money away from for profit medicare advantage plans

Expansion of medicaid

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/61684

Medicare Advantage is a plot by the GOP to destroy the plan by letting seniors opt out of single payer medicare. The advantage plan is heavily subsidized, so cut the subsidies. So it takes money out of a wasteful program designed to destroy medicare. Fine by me.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121074988

It also closes the medicare donut hole in part D, so that is an expansion of public health.

It expands community care clinics

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/edcut/508742/sanders_strengthens_senate_health_bill

The House bill provides $14 billion in funding for the federal health centers and service corps. Sanders says that indications from the White House and Democratic leadership are that there is a "good chance" the final bill will do the same. That would translate to health centers in 10,000 more communities throughout America within 5 years, and increase the number of people served by over 100 percent, to 45 million. It would also create 20,000 new primary care practitioners, dentists, nurses and other healthcare professionals. Sanders emphasizes a George Washington University study that shows the $14 billion expenditure would save money--$23 billion in Medicaid alone--"because you're keeping people out of the hospital and out of the emergency room. Now if this is not a win-win-win situation, I don't know what is," he says

[golddigger]

98. K&R

The DLC: Too stupid to lead!

[waiting for hope]

99. K&R

Principal over party if that is the case. I'll say this again, I'm tired of being told that the POS legislation is going to be great .. it's nothing more than a bullet point.

[WheelWalker]

102. All progress progresses from the first step. The first cause. The singularity.

[burning rain]

103. Silly goose. Don't you know anything that does some good is progressive?

And that anyone who supports doing some good is a progressive? Therefore Medicare Part D was progressive and supporting it made George W. Bush a progressive.

:dunce:

[Odin2005]

104. Too many "Democrats" only care about "winning", bill content is irrelevent.

Politics is sports to them, Blue Team vs. Red Team, when in fact the majority of the Blue Team are actually loyal to the Red Team and the game is rigged.

[Nikki Stone1]

112. Sport! That's right.

Thank you. Did you see Jon Stewart comparing politics to the WWF?

[Odin2005]

117. Yep!

[amborin]

121. K&R

[Nikki Stone1]

122. .

.