The passing of this bill will not be a triumph for the Obama administration.

[arcadian]

"The bill is not perfect" and "we'll fix it later" doesn't win friends or elections. It basically admits defeat before it's even been passed.

[Skinner]

1. And holding out for a bill that is perfect...

...will ensure that nothing ever gets passed.

[Robb]

2. Safe position, that. nt

[polpilot]

34. This bill is PERFECT...for the insurance companies.

[Oceansaway]

4. i agree...n/t

[graywarrior]

7. +1000

[arcadian]

9. Is that all that matters?

That something, anything gets passed? That's how the IWR and Patriot Act were slammed through Congress, if I recall correctly.

[Individualist]

31. DLC's motto: It doesn't matter how you play the game, winning is the only thing that counts.

[NanceGreggs]

12. ...

:thumbsup:

[NJmaverick]

32. Agreed, it all but impossible to achieve perfection in politics

plus nothing is written in stone

[NYC_SKP]

40. Hmm. The 'perfect' 15th Amendment would have included womens' voting rights.

Which didn't come for another 50 years.

The Fifteenth Amendment (Amendment XV) to the United States Constitution prohibits each government in the United States from denying a citizen the right to vote based on that citizen's "race, color, or previous condition of servitude" (i.e., slavery).

It was ratified on February 3, 1870.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

The Nineteenth Amendment (Amendment XIX) to the United States Constitution prohibits each state and the federal government from denying any citizen the right to vote because of that citizen's sex.

It was ratified on August 18, 1920.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

:patriot:

[Winterblues]

42. Perfect is also in the eye of the beholder

What is perfect for me is certainly not perfect for a good portion of America..

[MineralMan]

44. Thank you!

[tallahasseedem]

47. Exactly...

it's a start and I'm damn happy about it!

[laughingliberal]

51. Perfect was never in the mix

Does seem a little pressure for some improvement as they are writing the reconciliation bill was appropriate, though.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. But Not Passing The Bill Means The Republicants Rolled Him And That Is Unacceptable

~

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richardo]

5. Maybe passing it is not a triumph, but defeating it would be a disaster.

Take your pick: Bad, or much much worse.

[arcadian]

15. It's already a disaster either way.

The M word which defeated Carter, I hate to say it, but we iz in it over healthcare reform.

[MindandSoul]

6. And the defeat of this bill will be a triumph for the extreme Right,

the tea-baggers, the big health care business of every kind, and all the selfish and dumb people in this Country!

Is that what YOU want?

[kenny blankenship]

18. a pyrrhic victory. just as passage will be for the Democrats

[bigwillq]

8. You have to pass something

to even have a chance at fixing it later. I am not a huge supporter of this bill and I'm a skeptic as to whether or not it will ever be "fixed", but this is the last chance to pass something, I feel, for a long time, certainly the last time under Obama even if he's re-elected.

[MindandSoul]

20. Exactly! Look what happened after the Clinton bill was defeated!

Did a "better one" come quick and easy???
Did health care insurance began providing more reasonable rate?
Did pre-existing conditions clause disappear?
Did more people get insurance?
Did the percentage of the GDP used for health care shrink?

If you can answer "yes" to even one of those question. . .maybe you have a somewhat valid reason to vote against the current bill.
If you have to, in all fairness, answer "no" to all these questions. . . defeating this bill is stupid and short sighted. . .or you are a Republican planning to take credit for a worse bill, that will favor big business even more, in the next 10 years!

[emulatorloo]

10. The Republicans and the Teabaggers are against it. Can't be all bad n/t

[mdmc]

11. It will all depend on the increase to access to affordable medical treatment

If working people across the country see their for-profit health insurance out of pocket expenses go down (thus making medical treatment more affordable), then the dems will be sitting pretty.

If working people across the country see their for-profit health insurance out of pocket expenses go up (thus making medical treatment less affordable), then the GOP will have a hay day..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Yes, it will.

And therein is the primary reason of most people who are against it.

[EFerrari]

16. Using hyperbole like "perfection" sort of obscures the point

that mandating insurance is not mandating health care.

I understand that Obama needs a big win to set the tone for the rest of his work with legislation. It's too bad it had to be this one, imo.

ETA: Oops, misplaced this post. Meant to reply to Skinner. I better go watch that lizard eat the hummingbird egg. lol

[CaliforniaPeggy]

17. I think it will be a triumph.

But you know......time will tell.

[Beetwasher]

19. Yes, That's True, Republicans Are Opposing Obama FOR HIS OWN GOOD!

:rofl:

[3324SS]

21. Everyone Paying attention knew it would be crap

when the PO was not even in to start with, Obama and the Dems went in with a weak hand.

I will just add to to the long list of Dem disappointments.

If the Pubs were not such mean spirted, racist, selfish p*ricks it would not matter one bit who was in Congress, was President or Judges.

[SargeUNN]

22. this is a false statement you make

This is as wrong as it gets. First let's face it, no improvement at all means NOTHING and even invites more abuse. You take a trip across country you have to make stops along the way before getting to your desired location. You certainly don't expect to drive thousands of miles without stopping in route do you? This bill is lacking in some ways but it is a move in the right direction. If you want perfection in it you are fooling yourself and insuring that NOBODY will try for a long time to change it. This is a victory to build on although it is lacking, it is a move.

Those who don't want this to pass better take a closer look at what happens if it DOES NOT pass. You are just opening the door for worse than we have without any hope of elected officials picking it up and fighting for it. To try this long on it and pass nothing will scare off any future efforts for a long time, and we can see some good in this bill that will be worthwhile. Think folks.

[arcadian]

25. "This bill is lacking in some ways but..."

See? Even the people who want it to pass don't like it. How can it be good?

[SargeUNN]

30. Hey think about your statement

Right it lacks in ways, but if we wait for perfection then we won't see anything and we are being fools to expect perfection on this. I am sick of people dying that can be saved because we want single payer which I like, but if we can't get it passed we need to pass improvements to save lives. We do nothing and wait for the perfect bill, we are guilty of murder and I don't want that blood on my hands.

[arcadian]

35. I'm sick of people dying in Iraq and Afghanistan.

What about those poor souls?

[EFerrari]

27. Thinking is a good idea. And in order to hold your position

you have to believe 1) that this is an improvement and not a step in exactly the wrong direction and that 2) DC will improve on this bill. They also said they'd add more people to Medicare, in increments of 10 years of age at a time and it's been decades since they said that.

[ProSense]

23. It will be a triumph for the Americans.

Get used to it.

[timeforpeace]

24. If this doesn't "pass" then his only legacy will be losing the War in Afghanistan.

[KharmaTrain]

26. For Those With No Coverage...

This is one less millstone on their necks. Perfect, no, but better than the status quo.

Right now this country can't afford perfect...especially for those with "pre-existing conditions" and with no place to turn. Politics in a representative democracy isn't perfect or pretty. This isn't about "winning friends" and we'll see if getting this debate done and moving onto more important business will hurt Democratic chance in November.

[Better Believe It]

28. Written by the health insurance industry and big Pharma, what's not to like with this bill?

It's a perfectly terrible bill.

A few people think it will be fixed after the 2010 and 2012 elections!

Why?

Because the Democrats will increase their majorities in the House and Senate!

Sure they will.

The Republicans will make big congressional gains in 2010 and 2012 by campaigning against the "forced" insurance and "tax health insurance benefits" bill. They'll pretend to be populists while Democrats defend an unpopular program!

[Edweird]

41. They also get to campaign on 'trying to save Medicare'.

[DJ13]

29. One thing not mentioned in the "we'll fix it later" talk

Is that from here on out Congress will be facing a potential backlash demanding them to "fix it" as more and more people come to understand what they have done.

They'll have to continue thinking up excuses why they cant.

Obama will also be facing constant demands to fix it, and he too will have to keep making excuses......which wont improve his standing in polls heading into reelection.

[EFerrari]

33. They did fine coming up with excuses not to impeach the torture president.

Excuses they got.

[DJ13]

36. You're right

I was thinking of the poor Congress members who will face constant questions every time they go out in public.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

37. I don't think Nancy has had a townhall since 2004.

:)

[3324SS]

38. I just got off a web cast from our Congress Critter

who is a Dem but she refused to directly answer any question instead she choose to provide a nice safe form letter response to cherry picked safe questions.

She ignored the real question.

Very disappointing.

[laughingliberal]

53. I, for one, intend to make sure the President's vow to keep trying for a public option after passage

stays visible. I want to see some follow through, this time. We'll see what he does.

[B Calm]

39. If they start fixing it immediately and pass medicare for all as the public

option through reconciliation, then it will be a real good bill. we'll see what happens in the next few months. Until then I'll keep my fingers crossed that they'll do what is right.

[dionysus]

43. quit whinging.

[laughingliberal]

54. whinging? nt

[dionysus]

55. british term; To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner...

[Mari333]

45. my brother, who is a ron pauly type, called me today

'Kucinich caved' he said.
I said, well, how does that makes the dems seem to you?

"they wimped out, I guess. ' he told me.

I almost had him convinced that voting for a progressive dem was a good idea..(he likes alan grayson)..

now, not so much.

funny thing is, he is against both occupations as I am. an independent in many ways.

[bvar22]

46. Compare the bill to what he campaigned on:

This is a "Victory" in name only.

*He ridiculed Hillary in the debates over the Individual Mandate, and explained in deatil WHY it was bad for America.
NOW, he's ALL for it.

*He ridiculed McCain over the "Cadillac Tax" and explained in detail WHY it was BAD for America.
NOW, he's ALL for it.

*He said he would pay for Health Care Reform by raining taxes on the top 2%.
NOW, thats NOT happening

*He did indeed campaign on a Public Option, a "government Plan like Medicare" that would force corporations to compete.
Hahahahahahahahaha.

*America loved these ideas, and elected Obama by a wide margin and gave him large majorities in the House and Senate so he could get this done.
NOW, well.....

So if you look at where we started, and where we are now, the claims of "VICTORY" will ring very hollow.

[laughingliberal]

48. Yes, I supported him over Hillary in our caucuses here due to his positions on HCR reform

And, don't think for a minute my friends who sat in Hillary's section have let me forget it. Egg all over my face and a crappy HCR bill to go with it.

[AnOhioan]

49. This bill will cost the Democratic Party.

They wanted it, they got it. Now they can live with consequences.

[warm regards]

50. If it passes, it will be held up in court for many, many years.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2010/03/cuccinellis_office_confirms_vi.html

[babylonsister]

52. Baloney. You wish. nt