Remember when George W. Bush divided the world into "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys" with the

[Atticus]

simple-minded redneckism: "You're either with us or against us"?

He was supposedly addressing that to the community of nations on the international stage, but it didn't take long for people like John Ashcroft and Rush Limbaugh to make it clear that the same test applied here at home. You either supported Bush, Cheney and the rest of the regime while they launched a war of aggression against a 5th rate dictator OR you were a "terrorist sympathizer", a "cheese-eating surrender monkey" or simply a "Goddamn traitor!"

These simplistic either/or constructs are almost always bogus nonsense and are insults to the intelligence of anyone with an IQ above room temperature.

That's why it is so disappointing to see the same BS being flung around DU on a daily basis lately.

I DON'T KNOW what is the right thing to do about healthcare reform at this point. I believe it has been BADLY mis-managed and believe some faces in Congress should change because of that. But, I believe BOTH sides of the argument within our community have some valid points to make.

I BELIEVE that the thing to do now is to pass the bill and focus on further expansions and improvements later. BUT,---damn it---I sure as hell understand those who argue that "the line has to be drawn somewhere. We liberals have been taken for granted for too long", etc.

Maybe if we stopped stomping our feet and threatening to hold our breath till we turned blue if OUR views don't prevail, we could actually find common cause to start shovelling away the pile of shit the Bush administration left the country under.

Either way this thing goes, I'm absolutely not writing off the hopes and dreams the majority of the people in this country. I will not stay home and sulk while Jeb and Sarah or Mitt and the Huckster throw rocks at people who may have been ill-advised, may have been foolish, may have temporarily lost sight of who "brung 'em", but who are, nonetheless, MY people.

[Mojambo]

1. What a fine post.

Happy to recommend it.

[Chemisse]

2. Thanks for the reminder

Of what bad leadership REALLY is.

[daleanime]

3. It's not that we(or at least I) want a line in the sand...

this was our best chance to get this done, and it's being sent off with 'let's fix it later'.

This bill will not become any better then it is now, remember that court ruling a little while ago? Corp free speak:puke: allows them to spent as much as they want this fall. This bill will be easy to run against, check how popular it is here-do you think Ind's or repug's are going to like it more? Saw another post tonight about races for state judge receiving extra amounts of cash already. And we going to let insurance companies put one hand in the Treasury and one around our throats?

Yes there our some good items in the bill, but those items are the ones that will dissappear later.

[Atticus]

9. As I stated, I do understand where you are coming from and I respect that.

This bill MAY not become any better if it is passed, but, in my opinion, things will get worse if the bill is not passed, maybe a lot worse.

I don't see that our choice is "this bill or a strong public option" or "this bill or single payer". If either of those were the choice, I'd say sure, kill this bill.

Instead, I THINK our choice is "this bill or the status quo" and, possibly, as gleefully predicted, "Obama's Waterloo".

Not a good situation, I agree, but it is where we are.

Thanks for your response.

[lunatica]

11. Your prediction will happen whether the bill passes or not

Corporate free speech isn't going to subside if the bill isn't passed. Just like the Party of No isn't going to stop saying no. I think there comes a time when we have to face these facts. I think that passing the bill will break the decades old successful opposition to Universal Health Care. We'll have something to improve on (or not). It's like the salesman getting his foot in the door. The important thing is to have a goal or an agenda, just like that salesman.

On the other hand, I truly fear that if it isn't passed then it will be decades again before Americans can get another opportunity. All or nothing doesn't work when it's the government. It just doesn't. It's not even working for the Republicans after their free for all during the Bush years.

I would love to see Universal Healthcare, but it isn't going to happen this time, and the next time may not be anytime soon. But right now we can make some very important things happen with this health care reform.

[daleanime]

12. Hope and pray that your right...

although if we had the drive at the top that we have at the bottom(us voters) we would get single payer.


I don't see this bill breaking anything other then the democratic party, which is part of what I feel it's intended to do. Mandates serve on other purpose(well besides lining corp pockets), the small benefits of the bill are easily justified without it.

[Bluebear]

4. Here's my beef. If we lose Congress, nothing is going to get "fixed later". NAFTA. DADT.

I am not hoping for any expansions or improvements. What are done deals seem to stay done in Washington.

[rhett o rick]

6. But we have control now and none of those things are being fixed. nm

[rhett o rick]

5. First let me say I agree that we bitch about how we were screwed but

keep fighting to improve. And plez dont you dare think that the liberals are going to stay home and sulk.

And if I may use a terrible analogy, the great ship America is headed at a high speed toward an iceberg. We have spent a year on HCR to the exclusion of almost everything else, and have barely slowed the ship down a bit. Now while that is an accomplishment, considering the handicaps, we are still going to hit the iceberg.

[Canuckistanian]

7. I believe he used the word "evildoers"

A word I hadn't heard since the "Under Dog" cartoon series of the '60s.

Moral absolutism is SO unrealistic, whether it's coming from the right or the left.

[tavalon]

8. Yeah, the level of us versus them without much indication of who is what

is tiresome. It has been badly mismanaged and we appear to be sold up the river but honestly, I stopped playing at the last round so I'm not keeping up with the particulars. It might be a fabulous bill (I'm doubting it) or it might suck (likely) or something in between.

[HopeHoops]

10. I never quite understood - were they "evil doers" or "wrong doers"?

:shrug: