How fucking stupid would it be fair to call you if you designed a system in which .....

[Stinky The Clown]

....... you force people to buy a product with overhead and profit running about 30% of the product's retail price while disallowing them to buy a similar product with no profit motive and lower operating costs in the range of 5% of the product's retail price?

How fucking stupid would that be?

Or how fucking disconnected from real needs of real people would that be?

The followup question, of course, is "Why?"

[Oregone]

1. But its a "win"!

Goooooo-BAMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI

[EFerrari]

3. I understand Obama needs a win but I wish he didn't need one on this issue

at the cost of enslaving us to the insurance industry which has no respect for human life.

Is it wrong to say that?

I'm not even really mad at Obama. He's in Washington. I don't have a violent bone in my body or I'd be advocating starting over but I do remember what Mario said right about now:

There is a time," he said, "when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all."

sadly, b

[Oregone]

4. Yeah, I have no ill will to wards him. He is but mostly a politician

Its all the other self-proclaimed boy wonders who can't figure out how fucking terrible this shit is, or they know it but go along because of conflicts-of-interests. Obama is just a face and a smile for the agenda of the day, but there should be some minds out there who aren't sworn into a session of group-think.

[EFerrari]

6. Agreed. Blaming Obama is like blaming Dennis. It doesn't work

because there are hundreds of people around both of them pushing them down this path.

They are responsible but neither of them are the Wizard of Oz. Dennis actually said that about Obama on a Fault Line piece I saw recently. Dennis said that anyone expecting Obama to magically fix everything would be better off looking at themselves. And that's why I trust Dennis. :)

[truedelphi]

50. If Obama was not surrounding himself with the likes of Rahm and Rahm's brother,

Mike Taylor (Monsanto clone,) Geithner (Who is considered by Obama and to be in his own words "my buddy"), Kissinger (who now is the go-between in our deals with Russia and our Federal government,) and on and on, I could agree with you.

But to me, I care not one whit about someone's charm. I want to know WHAT THEY FRIGGIN' DO.

I WANNA KNOW WHO THEIR FRIENDS ARE.

And from that, I know their agenda.

Old proverb - If you lie down with dogs you wake up with fleas.

Our country as a whole cannot afford to have someone like this in office. Obama deliberately ran as a Progressive -as he knew that those of us in the know realize that the Progressive way is the only way to detach the nation from policies destroying the middle class. After all, when there is not a real middle class, vibrant and strong, in numbers, and terms of wealth, democracy is DEAD.

But this is more of the Same Old Same Old, although with a far more pleasant and smilin' face.

[AnArmyVeteran]

40. Why not just outlaw health insurance companies?

Health insurance companies provide zero added value. They are nothing more than parasites living off a host. There is no difference between the mobsters who forced shop owners to buy insurance to 'protect themselves' from the mobsters themselves. Today's insurance companies just use different tactics than the mob used. They use their millions to buy corrupt politicians, use lobbyists, and write the laws which allow them to profit off of the most vulnerable in society. The leaders of the health insurance companies are sociopaths, just like the mobsters who preyed on others. Why haven't democratic leaders just tell the truth about health insurance companies?

Conservatives seem to love useless middlemen stripping away billions that could be used to save the lives of people. Conservatives believe ANY business is good, even if it serves no purpose or produces no products. In a perfect conservative/libertarian world there would be thousands of new layers of 'businesses' between health care and the people. Are conservatives that dumb? Don't they realize that health insurance companies serve no useful purpose other than to drive up costs and bleed off every dollar they can?

[Edweird]

12. Win the battle, lose the war.

[kenny blankenship]

2. CRIMINALLY STUPID - and you ask Why?

"FUCK YOU" - that's why!

Because they can and you can't stop them. It's stupid like Goldman Sachs selling a mortgage backed security to a pension fund as an investment - and then shorting said security on the derivatives market. Gangster stupid. If you designed this for yourself to "cover" yourself and people you care about - yeah that would be stupid as all hell. You may as well rake a third of the money you had to spend on the project into a big pile and just set it on fire. And that's just the beginning of the plan's inefficiencies... But it wasn't designed by the victims for themselves - popular provisions weren't allowed in. Unpopular provisions were the centerpiece - the only required non-negotiable elements of any version of this legislation were the most hated. The victims didn't design this trap around themselves themselves, it was foisted on them by their keepers.

Our only mistake was asking Washington for help.

[rhett o rick]

8. Correction - Gangster smart. nm

[kenny blankenship]

9. You are right.

[rhett o rick]

11. Not something I want to be right about. nm

[readmoreoften]

45. +1

They're all a bunch of thugs, basically. We're on our own. The people of the US are so fucking dispossessed it frightens me to think about it.

[truedelphi]

52. + 2 (Household agrees and sadly so.)

[jgraz]

5. It would not be fair to call the designer stupid at all

Because the only reason you would design such a system would be to funnel money to your buddies who make said product.

[TomClash]

7. I take issue with the word

Product. It is not an ipad. It is health insurance - virtually a uniform service. There is no meaningful service differentiation. Profits should be razor thin, but here in the Oligarchy . . .

[county worker]

10. Just to make a point. I agree with you that it would be better to have a public option but,

what you say could be said about anything we let the government get into to complete with private industry. I think it would be a good idea for the government to compete with private industry building energy efficient autos and hire the unemployed to build them.

You would solve a couple of problems with my idea, you would increase manufacturing jobs and build an affordable car that gets good mileage, something not available to most of us now.

The problem is that it will never happen. My argument is mute so is yours.

[tavalon]

14. While the word you meant to use was moot, mute works really well

in this context.

You know that stupid commercial that says, "Can you hear me now?"? Fall of 2010, it will be the Democrats who will be wishing they couldn't hear us.

[county worker]

36. There is something wrong with people who have to point out others grammatical and spelling

problems. Just as there may be something wrong with people who make a lot of grammatical and spelling mistakes. It could be a mental problem in both cases or maybe not. It's a sign of stupid elitism on the part of one of them I think. Really for a group of people who claim to be more kind and understanding of others, this shows how that is not the case with a lot of posters here.

[tavalon]

38. I made a joke. It wasn't meant to be at your expense

I'm sorry that you saw it that way.

[county worker]

43. I'm sorry that I did not see the joke and I apologize to you.

[GreenArrow]

57. Do you think it's kinder to let you remain ignorant

of the correct spelling of the word?

I know there are some posters on here who attempt to devalue the content of a post by pointing out typos and grammar errors, but there are others who genuinely wish to inform.

[Uncle Joe]

24. I see three industries which should be solely in the publics' domain

Total health coverage for the people from the cradle to the grave, controlling the armed forces without tapeworm, loose cannon mercenaries and as the only jail keeper, for profit prisons should be outlawed.

Those three left to fester with private for profit entities will ultimately undermine national security, because they are adverse industries that directly benefit by working against the peoples' best interests.

As for energy efficient automobiles, I believe government should encourage it via tax breaks or policy but I see no reason to eliminate the profit motive.

[readmoreoften]

47. If we could keep it to that, capitalism's excesses could be kept in check.

But it will never be kept to that. The rich by the system and game it to their advantage. There is no "passing laws to protect" because they own the state.

[leeroysphitz]

13. You may be right but the bill is better than nothing and remember we could use the win here.

What part of better than nothing and winning the game don't you people get???

[tavalon]

15. This isn't a fucking game, it's our lives

And it might not be better than nothing.

[leeroysphitz]

17. OK maybe "better than nothing" was a poor choice of words. How about "good enough" instead?

Now will join the team and jump in for the big win?

[tavalon]

21. I'm not interested in playing ball with my fellow citizens lives

I'm slowly beginning to realize that I'm sarcasm deficient so you might just be yanking my chain.

[leeroysphitz]

23. Yank.

[tavalon]

25. Thanks

I suspected as much.

[glitch]

29. Wank.

[Individualist]

16. DLC's motto: It doesn't matter how you play the game, winning is the only thing that counts.

How fucking low can you go!

[kenny blankenship]

20. "Prompt Payment is your best plan to avoid prison playdates"

and remember: late payment is just as bad as not paying at all.

[EFerrari]

18. For people that believe this is a game, I have two words of one syllable.

[Edweird]

28. What part of 'IT ISN'T BETTER THAN NOTHING-IT'S WORSE' don't you get?

[Stinky The Clown]

32. Those words you strung together to convey a notion are quite off putting

Better than nothing is a pretty low bar for the "exceptional" nation we like to think we are.

Getting a win is what basketball teams do. This is about people's lives.

Gawd ......

[Toasterlad]

55. People Keep Saying That. WHY Is It Better Than Nothing?

Please explain.

[leeroysphitz]

56. Sarcasm.

Thought it was obvious but these days...

[GreenArrow]

58. Better than nothing.

Because in the DLC, we set the bar high.

[Uncle Joe]

19. I believe it's because we've slipped in to becoming a one party nation,

that being the Corporatist Party.

Corporations outright own the Republican Party while having a dominant position in the Democratic Party.

What serves corporate interests has become the prime consideration, not the best interests of the public or "general welfare."

It's not stupidity, they play a game of good cop/bad cop, using the people's allegiance to party as a means for having them support polices against their own best interests, divide and conquer.

Bush said in regards to his war on terror foreign policy "You're either with us or against us."

President Obama said in regards to this HCR Bill

"If people vote yes, whatever form that takes, that is going to be a vote for health-care reform," the president told Fox News Channel's Bret Baier, according to excerpts released Wednesday afternoon. "And I don't think we should pretend otherwise. And if they don't, if they vote against it, then they're going to be voting against health-care reform and they're going to be voting in favor of the status quo."

I believe that's a false premise, if Democrats vote against this bill, it doesn't mean they're voting in favor of the status quo, it can mean they're voting against what they perceive to be a flawed policy which will cause more harm than good. It could also mean they believe in running on serious Democratic/Populist change this November win by it, and actually carry through with the best or better real health care reform.

Thanks for the thread, Stinky.

[salguine]

22. It wouldn't be stupid at all. It would be devious, even cunning. The stupid ones are the

100 million or so citizens who just bend over and take it without swarming into the streets and burning shit down and sending these health care kingpins and these suck-ass legislators fleeing for their worthless lives.

[newtothegame]

42. But Bush was stupid when he did all his shit?

:shrug:

[glitch]

26. When the market decides a product is defective no one wants to buy it.

Hence a "mandated" taxpayer transfer to bailout the industry producing the defective product.

You did ask.

[Edweird]

27. What was that phrase Rahm used? That.

[tnlefty]

30. Very.

Why? Money, i.e. lobbyists, and they're very disconnected from the needs of real people, but you know all that.

[PufPuf23]

31. Regressively fucking stupid

The WH and democratic majorities in Congress cornered themselves into a bill that is regressive for affordable health care, regressives for the economy as a whole, and institutionalizes and financially mandates worse than the status quo.

Dream on about incremental improvements.

Pardon the pun, but I feel ill over the wasted time and political capital.

The cynicism of the system against the people abounds.

[troubledamerican]

33. A mandate AND an excise tax -- YAY, WE WON

[truedelphi]

53. We at Vichy Care totally applaud the Rahm/Obama Adminstration

Our careful research showed that once the mandates are installed, almost every household will be attracted to Vichy Care's One Dollar a year per person insurance premium cost for premium health care.

Don't trust us, you say? How can Vichy Care deliver the same wonderful HC that the other Bigger Insurers deliver by charging only a dollar a year?

Try us for just one year, and see if we don't deny you your treatment, for being experimental. Or rescind your policy because you lied when you left out the broken finger incident that happened in third grade.

Our Company will rescind and deny as fast as the others, and with far less cost to you.

Vichy Care. We take your premium dollars so other insurers don't get them.

[beardown]

34. Nice and full of fire and passion and logic.

Are you sure you're in the right board?

I've taken to calling the bill the Conscripted Consumers for the Health Insurance Industry bill.

[Johonny]

35. in theory there are non-profit insurance companies

in practice not so much, shouldn't we do a better job regulating what gets considered "non-profit" in this country?

[Romulox]

37. What's important to note is that Insurance is a broken product. And you MUST buy it.

No supporter can mediate the above contradiction.

[shireen]

39. this bill is not about health care reform

this bill is about the "health" of the president and the democratic party.

i'm so sick of the whole damned thing ...

[truedelphi]

51. + 2 (Household agrees, and sadly so.)

[YOY]

41. Ask the crowd here that would cheer if the DLC promised to shit on their heads.

n.t.

[readmoreoften]

44. +1

[jonathon]

46. The next questions would be about the people who advocate for the government mandate of that policy

But, if I state it outright - this post will be deleted.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

48. I'll say it: Pretty fucking stupid.

Which is why the GOP is going to have a FIELD DAY with this -- they are going eat us alive on this issue.

[Echo In Light]

49. Counterproductive, to say the least

[FiveGoodMen]

54. You'd have to be as stupid as a typical Dubya supporter

(or any number of posters here at DU)

[ProSense]

59. First,

Medicare has many problems and isn't tailored to younger Americans. For example, it doesn't provide dental. Medicare would need to be restructed to address those needs and the premiums are currently unaffordable for most Americans.

It's impossible to just say open Medicare to all without significantly restructing it.

People like Jacob Hacker took that into consideration:

Hacker also predicted that seniors would oppose opening the program to younger Americans and explained that Medicare was not designed “to provide health security to a younger than 65 population.” “There are a lot of holes in the Medicare program that should be fixed but which aren’t going to be fixed immediately. One of the important reasons to have a separate insurance plan is to make sure you’re providing the kind of good coverage that you know younger Americans need,” Hacker said.

“Ultimately though, we should understand the public health insurance plan idea, and Medicare as being very much interrelated. That over time, we should see this public health insurance plan and Medicare as a way of improving the cost effectiveness and the quality of care delivered to both younger Americans and to those over 65.”

link

The non-profit plan, the state single payer option and laying the foundation for more improvements to the current bill will go a long way. In fact, the public option would be preferable to simply opening Medicare to all.