Dennis Kucinich appreciation thread.

[mzmolly]

I'd like to thank Dennis Kucinich for making a difficult but important decision on health reform. Anyone who would like to join me in thanking him for his efforts to strengthen health reform legislation, and/or for his change of heart on how he'll vote, please do so.

:toast: to Dennis!

[Lifelong Protester]

1. I will join you. I think he made a good stand, but sees the big

picture. He will keep on fighting to make this health care situation better.

[mzmolly]

2. Thank

you. :hi:

[upi402]

3. seconded

:patriot:

[LakeSamish706]

4. Yep, although I am a bit disappointed that he changed his mind about the bill,

I am led to believe that Obama made a promise to him to help get Single Payer down the road. Guess we will have to wait and see.

Lol.. Sorry, yes I join you as well in thanking the good Congressman for being there for us.

[Oregone]

5. He folded to subsidized and mandated private insurance, seemingly getting nothing in the exchange

He is as useful to me as tits on a boar (though, as a disclaimer, he isn't my Congressman). At least he had principles temporarily and voices the concerns of the ignored

Just calling it as I see it. There used to be real liberals in charge, who all together would never propose such a reform, much less ostracize a member for their opposition

[amborin]

14. he was emotionally blackmailed and threatened; ghastly spectacle

[dionysus]

53. you guys really have your own seperate reality from the rest of us, don't you?

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

63. You mean, you and Aetna and Pfizer?

Yeah! I do! :rofl:

[mzmolly]

16. I understand

your disappointment. I really believe that once the bill is reality, we'll see the good in it.

Peace Oregone :hi:

[unkachuck]

6. I still appreciate Dennis....

....even though his 'no' means 'yes'....

[Zomby Woof]

7. I've always liked DK

Anyone surprised or disappointed by his decision, besides being blinded by their own dogma, is a political know-nothing or in deep denial. This could be an important lesson.

Though I doubt the lesson will sink in with any of them. Like the ideologues on the far right, there is a certain built-in immunity to reason which goes with the territory. You can't argue with a fanatic, be it politics or religion.

[Fumesucker]

8. This would have meant something a few days ago..

Now it's just hypocrisy..

[mzmolly]

9. He didn't change his mind

a few days ago.

[Fumesucker]

12. I know, that's what makes it hypocritical..

The *only* reason this was posted was because he did what the OP wanted him to do, a few days ago the same person was hating on him.

[mzmolly]

24. I hated his previous decision, not him.

There is a difference.

The reason I posted this thread is because I was so vocal.

[Fumesucker]

27. Theres been too much bad blood and anger over this just to wish it away..

And gloating about getting your way doesn't help..

[Eyerish]

29. +1

Bad losers and even worse winners.

[mzmolly]

31. I'm not gloating.

I'm giving credit where credit is due.

However while we're on the subject, pouting because you didn't get "your way" doesn't help.

[Fumesucker]

36. Perceptions differ..

You used the wrong form of the word, it's "poutrage".. I've heard that one a bunch of times too..

[Lerkfish]

51. why won't you respond to me further down?

I'll repeat the question:

why didn't you become vocal about the 17 or so other holdouts on the bill?

its a fair question.

[mzmolly]

56. Sorry, I had a life to attend to. I was vocal against other Dems.

You might at the very least peruse someone's journal before suggesting you can speak to their every comment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7252759&mesg_id=7252759

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7252759&mesg_id=7252797

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7252759&mesg_id=7253969

I've been HIGHLY critical of Joe Lieberman here. It just didn't get your attention.

[Lerkfish]

60. ok, so you attack both ends of the spectrum and ignore the 22 or so dems in the middle

you attack two people, over a period of 4 months.

Lieberman is a no brainer. He's not a democrat. He ran as an independent.

so you technically have only attacked one democrat and let dozens slide.

[mzmolly]

61. I recently mentioned that two vocal, crucial hold outs (on different ends of the Dem spectrum)

should be held accountable for preventing reform, yes. Your first assertion was that I singled out Kucinich alone. When I demonstrated that was false, you moved the goal posts. FYI ~ I've commented on SEVERAL politicians here over the years. Your suggestion that you can speak to the thousands of posts I've made here, is ignorant.

[Lerkfish]

77. ok, whatever -- My assertion is still true, NOT false

but I would posit that you moved the goalposts since I asked why you did not attack the other 22 dems who are voting no.

and again, Lieberman is NOT a democrat, no matter how much you assert he is. He had a democratic challenger, ran as a independent and then pretends he's a democrat.


so, yes, I still insist you're ONLY targeting ONE democrat.


is that so hard to admit to?

[mzmolly]

78. I've asked everyone voting no to give up their access to health care

until they cover the rest of America. Republican, Democrat and everyone in between.

Dennis was on the tube touting his opposition the day before I singled him out, which is partly why I did. I also picked up on KOS's post and the ire he drew here for daring to suggest that a progressive be held accountable. Dennis was vocal about his opposition and used what I feel were inaccurate reasons for not voting yes. I'm not ashamed to have questioned him. He is not above reproach. That said, at times I think we expect more of him. I was personally saddened that he intended to vote no on such important legislation.

Let me ask you a question. Why you fail to praise the other 22? Where are the threads elevating THEM to hero status?

Let me be clear once again, I will support (Democratic) opposition to anyone who votes against reform to the best of my ability.

[Lerkfish]

49. and why weren't you equally vocal against all the other dems that were holding out?

there were rightwing dems holding out as well... I forget whether it was 8 or the actual number. The point is, DK was the ONLY one that got your ire.

now, why is that, if it wasn't that you didn't like him personally?

see, this is where your'e rationalization doesn't work --if it was his decision, not him, then you would have been EQUALLY against the other 8 or so dems that held out.

right?

[mzmolly]

55. Why do you suggest that I wasn't?

Your point is very wrong.

[Ignis]

81. A simple search supports Lerky's assertion. (nt)

[mzmolly]

84. A simple search supports my

assertion which I proved in my response above. Now YOU show me the praise for the other 22 hold outs "Lerky" noted.

[Ignis]

89. Goal posts on wheels, eh? We're talking about condemnation, not praise.

As you well know.

[mzmolly]

91. I understand what we're discussing.

I'll let my record and the record of conversation here, speak for itself.

[JI7]

26. there is no hypocrisy, the OP appreciates Kucinich's decision to vote for the bill

so posted a positive thread on it.

before she posted one critical because she disagreed with his position.

hypocrisy would be if she posted a thread appreciating someone who opposed the bill while criticizing kucinich for opposing it.

[Fumesucker]

28. You don't go from hating someone to toasting them in a few moments..

Not without being a hypocrite.

I've read a bunch of seriously nasty anti-Kucinich posts in the last months, many of them highly personal.

Personally I see this as a lightly camouflaged form of gloating..

[mzmolly]

32. I don't hate Kucinich.

Again, I hated his stance. Are you suggesting that Dennis is above critique but the President is not?

[Fumesucker]

37. I don't think anyone is above critique..

But I find it interesting that the single most reviled individual on DU for some time now has been the politician furthest to the left.

I find that quite ironic, see my tagline for an explanation of how I feel.

[mzmolly]

38. Obama is the single most reviled

person on DU. Kucinich is adored by most here. The numerous threads (which made the greatest page with hundreds of votes) appreciating his previous stance against HC reform, should make that pretty clear. It's not easy to go against Kucinich here, as he's a hero to many. But even when he angers me and I feel his ego gets out of hand, I know his heart is in the right place.

Goodnight. :hi:

Edited to add, if you note my language above welcomes those who want to thank DK here for simply attempting to strengthen the bill, no yes vote required to appreciate that. In all honesty, I think he probably needs more support than he did yesterday. And, that is my TRUE motivation for this thread. You're free to dismiss my stated motive as being BS, if you wish.

[Fumesucker]

39. I've seen *far* more threads lately with Kucinich in the title than Obama..

And by no means were all of them positive..

I even had an OP about it the other day..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7915781

Edited because I'm about half asleep. :)

[mzmolly]

40. Admittedly I was caught up in about two

threads. ;)

Peace :hi:

[Fumesucker]

41. Take care...

:hi:

[mzmolly]

57. You as well.

Thanks for listening. :)

[JI7]

34. both of the OPs thread had to do with Kucinich's position on one Bill

when he was against it the OP was critical. now that he is going to vote for it the OP gives him credit.

there is no hypocrisy.

as i said, hypocrisy would be if the OP started a thread appreciating someone who was opposing the bill.

[mzmolly]

33. Thanks for getting it.

:hi:

[flvegan]

10. He knows something we don't.

That's why he did it.

[mzmolly]

22. That would be

wonderful. :D

[MindandSoul]

11. Yes, thank you Kucinich, and please stay active so we can not only

pass this bill... but improve it in the future!
We need people like Kucinich. . .reasonable and motivated by the right social conscience!

[beardown]

18. We should be so lucky.

If a democratic president with strong majorities in the senate and house can only muster enough grit to pass a health insurance reform bill with a mandate to buy insurance from private health insurance companies and without a sliver of a public option or single payer what chance do you think that a congress with almost certainly a smaller number of democratic party members next term and into the future will have to improve it?

I'd like to share your optimism, but I think that the same corporate forces and financing that turned health care reform into conscripted health insurance consumers will also be the driving force in any future adjustments to this bill.

[MindandSoul]

23. I think it's about PEOPLE's fears. . .once those fears go down. . .

we can move closer to nationalized health care!

I KNOW this is only the beginning! . . .Look at all the countries who have had nationalized madicine for decades!!! I lived in several of them. . .I know it can work, and work WELL!
The Republicans and the health industry has done such a good job at fear mongering, that real people don't know where to turn or what to think. .give them some time!

If we pass this bill, in a couple of years people will be begging for a public option! Give it a chance!

[Barbara2423]

13. Smart Move. We have to start somewhere. After this bill passes

we can start on the public option and single payer.

[Swamp Rat]

15. k&r

:patriot:

[mzmolly]

20. Thanks

Swampy. :hi:

[mvd]

17. Thanks, mzmolly

Now it is important that Obama does the same with wavering blue dogs and is open to big improvements. The improvements can't wait long, because we don't know what will happen in the fall. Love your new Dennis avatar - if I wasnt a mod, I'd put it on. But I avoid politician avatars while a mod. :hi:

[mzmolly]

19. I agree

fully.

Thanks for the response MVD. :hi:

[Greyhound]

21. I don't think he had any change of heart, but I still appreciate him.

(Although not enough to live in Cleveland).
:kick: & R

[mzmolly]

25. LOL

Cleveland isn't calling me either, strangely enough. ;)

[Eyerish]

30. Now that's you've gotten what you want...

from him, it's time to pull him from under the bus dust him off and pat him on the back. Color me unimpressed with your little gesture.

[mzmolly]

35. Color me unconcerned with

your opinion.

:eyes:

[Eyerish]

43. Good, I'm glad the feeling is mutual.

:hi:

[Stardust]

42. Kudos, Kooch. I know the decision wasn't made lightly.

I, too, am disappointed and skeptical that improvements will ever be made. But as Jane Woolsey said, you can't add a public option to nuthin.

[mzmolly]

69. "you can't add a public option to nuthin" ~ That's an excellent

point. :hi:

[Iggo]

44. .

:thumbsup:

[SoCalDemGrrl]

45. Dennis, can't thank u enough for supportinga flawed but necessary bill

:bounce:

[era veteran]

46. Thanks Congressman

Press on.

[katmondoo]

47. He renewed my faith in him.

Thank you Dennis.

[LWolf]

48. While I appreciate DK, I don't appreciate his switch on the health care bill.

I appreciate his reasons for doing so, but I don't stand with him on this one.

[mzmolly]

59. Well you may be able to appreciate his valiant efforts to improve

the bill to your liking if nothing else.

Thanks for the comment LWolf. :hi:

[MineralMan]

50. Yes. Good on him for making the right decision.

[dionysus]

52. i'll give him credit where credit is due. it was a tough vote for him.

[Cal33]

54. I'm with you. And I wish Kucinich will win his presidential bid,

if he should be running in 2016.

[Mari333]

58. woops...he still thinks the bill sucks huge balls

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7946000

[EFerrari]

62. Yes, he does. When he votes for reform, I'll congratulate him then. n/t

[Mari333]

79. thats about it, isnt it. until then, I think he will be sorely disappointed.

[mzmolly]

64. He believes that progress is the best choice.

Sounds like his lovely wife had more influence than FDL, thankfully. I'm glad he'll add his progressive name to those who helped save lives now with continued fighting for improvement.

[EFerrari]

82. Dennis at no point has said this is progress. You are misrepresenting

what he this morning called "a dark hour".

[mzmolly]

83. He voted for a dark hour? On Democracy Now he said the bill merits his support because ...

1. He was going to be looking at a bill where he was the decisive vote.
2. He could kill the bill or let it go forward, in hopes that we could build something from it.
3. He believes we need to jump beyond the debate and support a state level single payer system - this bill is a step in that direction.
4. He said Clinton reforms were very weak, but it took 16 years to have another discussion on reform.
5. He came to the inclusion that it would be impossible to start another conversation if we let the bill die.
6. *He sees this as a step forward, so that after it passes we can continue the discussion about what happens at the state level.
7. He said if the bill goes down, they'll be "hell to pay" and it will be an excuse to not move forward again.
8. *He said this bill will take health care in a new direction and he wants to contribute to that.

[EFerrari]

85. In fact, he didn't say the bill merits his support.

He said he has to support the bill to stay in the game.

No matter how hard you try to co-opt Dennis, you can't. Because he is not for sale.

[mzmolly]

86. Sorry I'm watching him on Democracy Now, NOW.

He supported the bill and his reasons were noted almost verbatim. You can't choose when you think he's a person of high principle and when you do not.

[EFerrari]

88. Then you must also have access to the transcript.

And, no, I"m not going for your attmpt to co-opt Dennis when he called this abortion of a health bill "ruins".

[mzmolly]

90. Co-opting him? I'm thanking him after Ed Schultz pointed out that he's

being sh*t on by some for changing his vote.

Edited to add a case in point >>>> http://www.singlepayeraction.org/blog/

Kucinich Caves

Filed under: News — russell @ 10:20 am

"Up until now, we would say – the Democrats are a corporate party – with the exception of Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio).

Now what?

The Democrats are a corporate party.

Rotting from the core.

Ready to be tipped over.

With no exceptions.

Kucinich’s flameout was spectacular this morning.

A simple trip on Air Force One – and he was gone.

He joined the corporate Democrats.

To support a bill that he – and the progressive Democrats – said they would never support.

He got nothing in return.

Kucinich supported an insurance industry bailout he said he would never support.

A bill he had opposed until the ride on Air Force One.

“I’ve taken a detour through supporting this bill,” Kucinich said this morning.

A detour that will condemn millions of Americans to ongoing suffering and death.

Disgraceful."

[Bluebear]

65. 'because now he agrees with me'

:toast:

[mzmolly]

66. 'because now he's voting to save 45,000 lives each year...'

Note the thread allows for those who simply appreciate his fighting to improve the legislation to show appreciation as well.

I thought you appreciated his leadership? Has that changed?

Ed Schultz commented yesterday that liberal bloggers were giving Kucinich a hard time for his change of heart. I felt that those who were angry with him here, should at the very least support him when he most needs it. I did so knowing I'd be jumped on, so your response was anticipated.

:hi:

[Bluebear]

67. I don't consider his flip-flop on this "leadership". Thanks.

[mzmolly]

68. Well you still think he's principled

don't you?

[Bluebear]

70. I can only go by their votes.

[dionysus]

71. so he's no good to you now, obviously.

[mzmolly]

72. That's a non

answer but that's ok.

Peace BB. :hi:

[Bluebear]

73. mm, I'm not a big Kucinich flag-waver here

I don't know if you're confusing me with somebody else, more a Deaniac here :) Peace to you as well.

[mzmolly]

75. As a Deaniac

myself, I understand.

Take care. I'm watching the PC now if you're interested. http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream1

:pals:

[backscatter712]

74. I'll give him a thumbs up.

I don't blame him for taking so long - we're all rightfully pissed off about the health care bill getting watered down, but he recognized that we need to pass the bill, then keep working.

Good for him.

[mzmolly]

76. "We will measure our success by the progress being felt by the American people."

Pelosi quoting the President just now.

I agree with your every word.

[Omaha Steve]

80. K&R!

[readmoreoften]

87. I love how suddenly Kucinich is the DLC's darling when he tows the line.

:eyes:

[mzmolly]

92. Now, I work for the DLC?

:rofl: I love how he suddenly lacks principle by those who pull out the "DLC" boogie man because he changed his vote to the "save lives" column.