Got a question for some of you

[MadHound]

Back in Clinton's day, when he was running up NAFTA, and the left was protesting the move, when he was signing welfare "reform", and the left was saying how bad that was going to be, when he passed the '96 Telecom Act, and the left said we're cutting our own throats, when he was turning back regulation after regulation, and the left was saying that's going to come back and bite us in the ass. When Clinton was doing all of that and more, with the left opposing such stupidity, the moderates, centerists, DLCer's were all demonizing the left for their opposition to these moves by Clinton.

Yep, the left was demonized for their protestations, but a funny thing happened. Starting about seven, ten years after the fact, when all of these Clinton moves started bearing rotten fruit, the moderates and the centerists started catching up to the left and VOILA, the left was vindicated, yes, those moves by Clinton were not good.

Now Obama is ramming health care "reform" down our throat, and the left is saying this isn't a good move, Obama is destroying public education, and the left is aghast, the Obama administration is doubling down on endless war without end, and the left is out in the streets over it, the Obama administration is not prosecuting people for war crimes, and the left is saying that will come back and bite us on the ass. Once again, the left is making all these protestations, while the centerists, moderates, DLCer's all mock the left, or get pissed off at their obstinate ways.

So my question for those of you in the moderate, centerist, DLC camp. Ten years from now, when the shit is hitting the fan, and these Obama initiatives are driving this country further and further into the ground, will you folks do one thing? Instead of simply acknowledging the truth of what the left was saying all along (Yup, should have listened to them, we got screwed, a'yup uh huh), will you folks finally start paying attention to what the left is saying AT THE TIME WE'RE SCREAMING IT, act on it, and recognize that the left isn't some whacko frings, but rather intelligent, thoughtful people who know what they're talking about and that we need to start following their advice before we drive the country even further into the ditch?

Will you do that for me, for us? Will you finally start paying attention to the left, acknowledging the validity and intelligence of their stance on the issues, and start following their advice. If this was simply a child's game, being able to say "neener, neener, I told you so" after the fact would be plenty soul satisfying. But this is real life, and frankly there is no satisfaction in saying I told you so while having to live with the consequences of the centerists', moderates', DCLers' stupidity, because frankly it just hurts too much in too many ways.

So when all of these policies of Obama's prove to be so much shit that is screwing us all into the ground, will you folks in the middle finally acknowledge the left, start paying attention to what we're saying, and start acting on our warnings?

Otherwise this is going to really old, really quick. It already is.

[damyank913]

1. So, do you not believe that health care reform is long overdue?

What would you suggest?

[MadHound]

2. Wow, way to miss the point of the post.

I think that a lot of Obama's policies, including this so called heath care reform, are going to drive this country into the ground, just like a lot of Clinton's policies did. When that happens, for the second time, will you finally start acknowledging that liberals and leftists aren't crazy, that we know what we're talking about when we're talking about it, and start acting on our advice in order to prevent further damage in the future?

Oh will you simply sit there and think that this is all about health care:eyes:

[damyank913]

10. I did get the point. A general screed about how correct you've been about EVERYTHING.

With no useful suggestions or input.

[MadHound]

12. Let's see here,

You don't think that "Hey, next time pay attention to what the left is saying, they're generally right on about most issues" is a useful suggestion?

Nope, guess not. Guess you're going to be one of those centerists who will try to blithely pass off the mistakes of the Obama administration as something that you didn't support, while hoping nobody digs up your posts to the contrary.

[damyank913]

16. That's about as useful as praying for world peace.

:shrug:

[MadHound]

18. Well thanks for being truthful,

It's always nice when a centerist comes out and lays it out plain, "Screw you, we're going to do what is best for us and screw the little people."

You would think that after being proven wrong time and again the moderates, centerists and DLCer's would start actually paying attention to the left. But no, I guess the would rather play political games than actually doing what is best for we the people.

[damyank913]

22. Well then tell me what the left stands for. "Power to the people" is a little vague.

[MadHound]

26. Let's see here,

An end to these illegal, immoral wars for empire and oil. Our civil rights restored. The rich paying their fair share in this country. Single payer health care would be nice, but willing to compromise for a strong PO (a very popular position). Restoration of regulations on the financial sector. Bringing back a strong manufacturing sector to this country. Excellence in education, not tearing it down. Recognition of the rights of the LGBT community.

Gee, is that so radical?

[damyank913]

43. It's not radical at all. But you're hanging too much blame on Obama.

He's been there for a year. Education? I have a problem with what's happening there. Gay rights too. The war-we broke it-now we gotta fix it. Financial regs-we're getting there. PO still doable. Manufacturing-I'd love to hear your suggestions. But the belief that this ship can turn on a dime is not realistic. Run around screaming with your arms flailing doesn't get it done.

[MadHound]

55. It's been a year and he's making things worse.

Education, he's privatizing it, not fixing it. The war, we can't fix it, just get the hell out. Financial regs, excuse me, but they should have been put back in place already, but instead he's been fucking around with HCR for far too long (what happened to "done by August? Oh yeah, he just let Congress drift). PO, how is it doable (and please don't give me that "fix it later" crap, we all know that's not happening).

We recognize that the this ship can't turn on a dime, but it's not turning at all. Instead it is increasing speed, going much the same direction as Bush.

[damyank913]

80. I think that you would not be satisfied with anything this administration did.

[MadHound]

96. You think wrong,

I would be happy if Obama had fulfilled his campaign promise, a strong, viable Public Option. I would be happy if he committed to helping public education instead of promoting more charter schools. I would be happy if he had let the Patriot Act die the death it deserves. I would be happy if he got rid of DADT. I would be happy if he did these and other things, the trouble is, he's not. He's proceeding down a path that was trailblazed by Bush, never a good thing.

[Naturalist111]

120. Do you thnk those things

would of happened if a McCain would have been elected? :-)

[FiveGoodMen]

90. FOAD!

[readmoreoften]

94. How about: pay attention to the track record and explain why the DLC has such a shitty one.

I hope you're still in high school.

[pecwae]

107. Where's yours, sweetums?

I don't see wise solutions in your posts, yet you harangue someone else. And, yes, your posts missed the OP's points entirely. I suppose you're just happy to have 'WON'.

[LWolf]

15. Universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health CARE.

Obviously long-overdue and far superior to the insurance "reform" currently being rammed down our throats.

[Froward69]

51. Agreed yet

this is a start and it can be repaired. Kicking the can down the road for another 100 years is not an option.

Republicans Know they will loose trying to undo it. as well as the American public will embrace it just as it has embraced Social security and medicare.

[LWolf]

113. This isn't a start to getting the profit out of the equation and focusing on care.

I already have insurance and don't get care because I can't afford copays and deductibles after the premium payment.

I don't expect that to change.

Working for actual improvements in access to CARE is not "kicking the can down the road."

[Greyhound]

71. False dilemma and misdirection.

Shame on you.

[damyank913]

74. I asked a question.

Keep your guilt trips to yourself.

[Greyhound]

78. You're the one trying to frame a debate using cheap fallacies.

This bill has nothing to do with health care, every problem in the health care system that exists today will remain after this absurdity passes, it is about insurance. Pretending this is about health care diverts from the real issue, and I suspect you know it.

The false dilemma is the "this or nothing and if we don't do this we'll all be dead in a year!" meme you help perpetuate.

[damyank913]

79. I think you need a new prescription for your glasses.

You're reading things that I never wrote.

[Greyhound]

81. I already pointed out what you said. It wasn't hard to do, it's four lines up.

"So, do you not believe that health care reform is long overdue? What would you suggest?"

You begged the OP's question with your own, completely irrelevant, question. Then negated any answer by shifting the topic to health care reform, a topic of easy consent, but unrelated to the issue at hand which is the fact that conservatives (regardless of party affiliation) are always wrong and liberals always tell them why they are wrong and what will happen if they do what they want to, and are inevitably proven correct.

But this keeps the thread kicked.

[damyank913]

83. Your pedantic, ad hom attacks, make me wonder what your deal is.

I wasn't framing anything. Perhaps if you weren't in love with the sound of your voice we could have a sensible discussion.

[Greyhound]

86. It's not ad hominem; I didn't attack you at all, but rather your non-argument.

Sensible discussion is always welcomed. The OP makes an excellent point that I felt you were distracting from, so I pointed it out.
:kick:

[fascisthunter]

91. red herring

nice way of framing an argument when in need of a distraction. Answer the fucking question.

[Orsino]

3. The Left is always demonized...

...while America keeps failing with conservative policy.

It ain't the Left's fault.

[Echo In Light]

8. Ignored, & when that doesn't work, & and 'examples' need be made, marginalized & attacked

Which is odd, given how there's millions of lefties in the US, just not organized b/c the two party ruse that's in place to stave off "democratic interference."

[zipplewrath]

4. NAFTA, DADT, DOMA

Three major issues in the last campaign ALL of them signed by Clinton.

When we're losing big in November, they'll try to blame it on the left. When the GOP uses this bill to privatize Medicare, they'll forget that the left was screaming foul.

[nightrain]

5. knr for your outrage. some will never listen. It's too easy to

shout "socialism"! And try to find scapegoats, divert attention, deny the pain...

[Prism]

6. They'll claim they opposed it, too

Ten years later, history will dictate that no one supported a mistake.

No one.

Of course, that might be somewhat more difficult with the internet. Now there is all this terrible public record and memory to go with the revisions.

Hell, try pointing out what people said even two years ago, even if you can cite countless posts. They'll still attempt to tell you they never said or thought any such thing and how dare you slander their good name.

It's solid entertainment.

[MadHound]

9. It would be great entertainment, except for the horrible consequences

Too hard to say "I told you so" when those mistakes are costing us lives, money and our very country.

[Prism]

13. It's usually a trainwreck

But, they just don't care. I have to ruefully laugh at it, because the anger would be too much. There's a prominent supporter of President Obama who would just go after LGBT people on this board. Blame us for all kinds of things. Blamed us for the 2004 election. I mentioned this to them and they denied it like crazy. Then I shared the links. "Oh, I . . . oh." They're still around, still doing their thing, still waving a blue shirt while throwing everyone under the bus, still making their little comments.

If I were to say to them what I want to say to them, I'd probably be the one TSed.

So you just have to grin at the absurdity of it and laugh at how totally insane the cognitive dissonance is as they flail around with no logical rhyme or reason - just plain support for the Blue Team and villainization of anyone who gets in the way.

As long as you claim to support the team, you can pretty much be as right-wing as you please. That's the rule.

[lunatica]

7. There will be no acknowledgment that the left predicted all these things

I haven't heard anyone in government say the Left were right about NAFTA, except the Left. If they ever figure out that something they did was wrong they'll take credit for discovering it's wrong and the Left will still be a bunch of retards to them.

[ehrnst]

11. Health Care *is* a huge part of the problem

Yes, fixing it will cost money.

If you have a junker of a car that is sucking oil, and in the shop alot, you have to decide if laying out the chunk of cash for a new car will break you more than keeping on pouring moderate $$ into the junker indefintely.

Health care costs are one reason that manufacturing is going overseas. We are losing jobs because of the health care system here.

No, I'm not going to go into what Clinton did or didn't do, or who said he was right, or who said he was wrong.

I'd rather be proven wrong with a good outcome than proven right with a bad one.

Is that what you're asking?

[MadHound]

17. And under this bill, the costs of health care will continue to be a huge part of the problem

How does handing the insurance industry a mandated monopoly actually help anything?

The countries that are currently doing better than us economically are doing so because they have a true, single payer UHC system. That's not what we're getting, not even close.

As far as jobs go, yes, part of the reason is our lack of a true single payer UHC (something that we're not getting). The other huge part is Clinton's passage of NAFTA and granting China most favored nation trading status. Removing those barriers opened the floodgates, allowing our manufacturing sector to flee this country, taking all those jobs with them.

You may not want to discuss Clinton, but the fact of the matter is that we're still being adversely affected by his corporatist policies.

[ehrnst]

54. Yes - I would rather have a single payer system.

But I'm willing to settle for what this is over "NOTHING" which is what we get otherwise. Realistically, there is no going back to square one. It is an average of 19 years between health care reform efforts in the U.S.

Blame whatever you want on whoever you want. I'm not informed enough on the details of Clinton's economic policies to discuss them with anyone - and so I won't.

What I can do NOW is to vote. I can be as informed as I can, try to get good information from good sources that don't have an agenda, and encourage my rep to do the same.

I also don't have a time machine to go back and change those policies that have gotten us here, nor go forward in time to see who or who is not saying you are right or they are wrong.

If you want to discuss these things, knock yourself out on boards with people interested and informed on such things. But it appears that you are simply criticizing everyone else here for not joining you.

[KharmaTrain]

14. Win Elections...The Keys To The Kingdom

Ideas mean little in this greed and grab world...principals only matter when it can be applied to power or the gaining of it. Money trumps all as politicians need money to get the votes and thus the money and the pressures that come with it always supercede the voters. The beltway has turned into a bubble world that gives lip service to what happens in "fly over" country as most enjoy a nice life and incomes and only see the suffering of others as a tool to manipulate, not a human emotion.

The way to get a bigger seat at the table and to advance Progressive ideals is through showing strength...winning elections and being a potent force in raising money and supporting candidates. It's creating a "Progressive Lobby" that stands for our common interests and then has the connections and the influence to push the agenda and/or counter the tactics of the opposition.

[MadHound]

19. You would think that after the support the left has given,

The votes we've turned out, the hours we've worked, the money we've donated, we would already have a seat at the table. But apparently that all goes by the wayside when it actually comes to policy.

Back in the day, we were at least thrown a bone once in a while, but we're not even given that anymore. So why should the left stick with a party that takes all we have, yet gives nothing in return?

[KharmaTrain]

24. Whatcha Done For Me Lately...

I hear you. I've donated well into the five figures in donations over the past decade as well as worked on campaigns, but I knew this was a move in a positive direction, far from the overwhelming "mandate" so many thought the 2008 election was. In many cases Democrats won despite...the GOOP had sunk so low and their candidates were so lame that it led to a large shift of "independents" to vote for Democrats. The shift was temporary and misread by some to think that they were all in on going from hard right to a progressive left.

The irony is if you listen to the teabaggers, they feel the same way about the rushpublicans that some bemoan about the Democrats...that they've worked for them and gotten nothing. You'd think they'd be demoralized yet the money and political apparatus on that side holds things together through their common hate.

Cheers...

[RainDog]

20. So, the repukes demonstrably steal the election in 2000 and 2004

and the fault is STILL liberals not electing people?

when does the bullshit blaming end?

[KharmaTrain]

21. Not Blame...

The GOOP didn't steal the House & Senate races that gave them majorities that year...nor how did those machines somehow fail in 2006 and 2008? Or is this all part of some master conspiracy?

I'm not blaming...making a statement that is proven by this past debate. There weren't enough votes for public option...or medicare pay in and single payer never stood a chance. The Progressive Caucus numbers around 50-60...depending on whose numbers you trust...a bloc but not a dominant one. Get 100 or 150 and the chances of pushing Progressive legislation improves and also forces others to accept and come along. It's a numbers game.

The Progressive/Liberal blogosphere was a positive catalyst in 2006 & 2008 and are now having to learn to adjust to what governing is compared to campaigning. It's also finding out that the walls of the entrenched in the beltway won't fall easily...so you can throw up one's hands and blame rigged elections or the DLC or whatever or look at the upcoming election as an opportunity and to fight fire with fire...create a Progressive lobby with some real teeth.

[damyank913]

23. Agreed.

[MadHound]

25. Not enough votes for the PO, puhlease.

There is overwhelming support for the PO, among all sectors of our society, Dem, Independent, even 'Pug. This is a clear mandate that our representatives should do their job, represent the will of their constituents.

In a democratic republic that is the job of any representative, to do what his/her constituents want. Instead they have done what they wanted, without regard to how their constituents feel.

So, if our representatives aren't going to do what we want them to do, what good are they? Perhaps it is time to get rid of them and put in people who will actually do their job:shrug:

[KharmaTrain]

28. If The Votes Were There, There'd Be A Public Option...

The initial House bill barely passed with one but there wasn't the votes in the Senate. The recent Bennett letter sadly proved the case as it fell short not only of the 60 "supermajority" that would have ended this thing last year but the 51 for reconciliation. The House has passed a lot of legislation over the past couple years that got stonewalled or watered down in the Senate and they're not skeptical of sending anything there that gets screwed around with.

While there was overwhelming support for Public Option among Democrats (this one included) that didn't seem to translate to the purple and red areas where the teabaggers scream the loudest and the Blue Dogs live. You are correct that the job of your representative is to vote for your best interests and to let him/her know it. But your interests aren't the same as those of someone in Arkansas or Upper Michigan. The bill was sold poorly and allowed those looking to oppose to do so...things got so muddled that more people wanted to walk away from this thing than to see it through. Now we're down to brass tacks and time to look ahead...many more battles await.

Cheers...

[MadHound]

30. The PO wasn't even fought for,

That is demonstrated by two things, Obama's willingness to throw it overboard last August, and the fact that the Dems caved when there was the least little resistance. Whatever happened to fighting for what the people want? Whatever happened to fighting for what is right? Not these Dems, you so much as look at them with a frown and they cave.

Sorry, but when there is overwhelming popular support in all sectors of society, and the Dems have solid majorities in Congress and control the WH, then solidly progressive issues like the PO should be made into law.

But the Dems, they simply caved. Worse yet, they were bought off by their corporate masters and this is all just a mummer's play anyway.

[KharmaTrain]

33. Obama Miscalculated...

IMHO, he thought that he could smooze his old Senate buddies to get bipartisan support for his iniatives and wasted an entire year finding out that wasn't the case. He also misread his own party...both right and left as to how entrenched they were in their positions and the longer this thing dragged on the more polarized things got. The reason Obama threw PO out last year was he knew he couldn't get the votes...unless he convinced a Snowe or Collins to jump the fence, that was the only chance PO would have had in getting momentum to pass in the Senate.

Yes, the Democrats caved as the power of the lobbies and the money culture of the beltway trumps any opinion poll. "Overwhelming support" doesn't put money in the coffers...the $1 million a House candidate needs every two years to run for re-election or the $10 million or more for the Senate. The money always matters more than "the people"...and it will remain that way as long as that's the way elections are won.

It's a shame that people won't get a competitive system, but the Public Option advocated were outgunned...there's lessons to be learned or many here will be let down over and over.

[MadHound]

36. No, PO advocates weren't outgunned, they were betrayed

We didn't need Snowe or Collins to jump the fence, we needed the Dems to actually stand up and fight. Now, when it is too late, we see Obama and the corporately controlled Dems fighting to get this POS bill though Congress by hook or by crook.

Those on the left had fought hard for Obama and the Congressional Dems, we donated the needed money, we donated time, we voted in record numbers, yet we're getting the shaft.

It wasn't that we were outgunned, we were betrayed, and the only thing that the Congressional Dems and the WH have fought for is handing we the people over to the tender mercies of the insurance industry.

So why should we support them in the future?

[KharmaTrain]

41. So What's Your Option?

Stand by and "teach" the Democrats a lesson and allow the GOOP to regain one or both Houses? Go third party and curse them all?

Again, I saw Democrats winning in 2006 and 2008 despite themselves...that people were so fed up with the rushpublicans they wanted them out. I never saw it as a Progressive or Liberal mandate...far from it. We've had to endure 30 years of rushpublican and right wing agendas, it wasn't going to turn 180 in one election or two...the elite and money is too entrenched. And it's not going away.

So what's the plan? I saw Democrats detach in the past and see how well that worked? To tame the beast you have to beat it. Consider the money we've donated as an ongoing downpayment in that process. Opt out if you want...they're not about to.

[MadHound]

56. Well, if the 'Pugs aren't going to represent my interest,

And the Dems are going to take my money and vote and still not represent my interests, what's left?

Yeah, a third party that at least represents my interests. Perhaps that will wake up the Democratic party if they get beat like a gong. If not, then they'll go the way of the Whigs as more people become fed up with them.

[RainDog]

38. Obama was against the public option

and he gave cover to those who are farther to the right in the current democratic party than Eisenhower was as a republican president.

The majority of Americans wanted a public option but the president didn't. so it didn't happen.

this is about Obama.

if he had wanted to, he could have gotten the votes. he had an actual mandate for change.

the bullshit conservatives have acted the same way toward democrats since JFK - commie this, commie that- but other presidents bent the party to the will of the people.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. If Obama and the DLC had put as much energy into fighting for single payer or

the Medicare buy-in or even the public option (which was a pretty pathetic compromise to begin with) as they did into strong-arming Kucinich....

[KharmaTrain]

84. It Still Would Have Failed...

There weren't the votes for single payer...not even close. Maybe President Obama could stiff-arm 10 votes in the House and maybe 1 or 2 in the Senat, like he's doing now, but not the large number to pass even Public Option (look at the number of Senators who signed the Bennet Letter...not even the 50 needed for reconciliation.

This bill is the best that could happen. No cop out, the fact others have tried and not even gotten this far speaks to the energy this admnistation has had in staying on this issue and not folding up the cards like Clinton did.

The bottom line is you don't propose a bill and go in to lose...or to get it sidetracked (like what happened with the Clintons). Politics is the art of the possible. No it's not the ideal bill...but for millions who don't have coverage, it's a lot better than the status quo.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. What a defeatist attitude

Do you know what Reagan did when he wanted something done?

He went on TV, explained what he wanted in simple (but often deceptive) language, and urged viewers to pester their Congresscritters.

Obama had the biggest and most enthusiastic crowd of volunteers I've ever seen. He could have mobilized them.

[KharmaTrain]

87. Raygun Failed On A Lot Of His Initiatives

He had a big agenda of things...outlaw a woman's right to choose, dismantle the Department of Education, privitize social security and fund the contras leagally. Democrats led by Tip O'Neill and Robert Byrd were able to shut him down. We don't have those kind of leaders these days. Raygun did plenty of damage, but it could have been far worse...took boooosh II to finish the job.

Much of the mobilization going on for President Obama in 2008 was as much those disgusted with the rushpublicans and McCain than it was voting for single payer or card check or any other social promises or programs. If there was an issue that energized and mobalized it was the mess in Iraq & Afghanistan and the jury's out...hopefully troops from Iraq will be returning soon and from Afghanistan not long after. This is what most people voted for.

It's ironic that President Obama be damned for letting the legislative do what the constitution said...to be an independent branch...and hearing that Obama should have ramroded things through like booosh. I didn't like it when the previous regime abused the separation of powers and have no intention supporting this adminstration doing the same.

As far as attitude...its defeatists to blame and keep looking backwards. Defeatist would have walked away with nothing and letting the corporates maintain the status quo and kill any attempt to reign in their abuses for years to come. Your defeatist is my realism...

Cheers...

[pampango]

82. With 178 republicans and 54 Blue Dogs something tells me that the Public Option would

have been a very difficult sell. (These numbers don't include all the other conservative and moderate Democrats who get nervous when they are questioned about "government-run" health care.)

I would have preferred taking a shot at a British style National Health Service, but I realize that there's a risk in "aiming high". Obama must have had to calculate what he would prefer to see in terms of HCR (maybe he dreams of having a PO, single-payer or an NHS, I don't know) vs. what he thought he could get that would be significant (if not his dream solution), knowing that he might just get one shot at it. If you all your eggs in a PO or NHS basket, push that hard and it fails, it's very difficult to switch gears and say, "Wait, I have another idea that's almost as good for health care reform. Maybe you'll like this one." :)

[Edweird]

97. No. The Senate bill = "I'm getting 95% of what I want". This isn't about 'votes'.

[damyank913]

29. Perhaps we can get the PO at a later date. The opponents of Choice are the problem there.

I say get what we can now-we've never been this close before.

[MadHound]

31. LOL!

"Tomorrow! Tomorrow!
I love ya Tomorrow!
You're always
A day
A way!"

That's the song they sang about NAFTA, we'll fix it all later. Sixteen years and counting, still no fixes.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice. . .

[readmoreoften]

95. Translation: opposing progressive ideas is the only way to save progressivism.

In the early 20th century, this was called opportunism.

[aaronbav]

27. K&R - Very well said! DLC'ers will NEVER get a "clue" about how

destructive their policies are - with devastating consequences for the VAST majority of citizens.

[Individualist]

58. The irony is that DLC supporters are going to find they'll get screwed along with the rest of us.

Poetic justice.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. That s because most of them are yuppies who would have been Republicans

in 1962. They're affluent and don't know and don't care about "the little people," and the only reason they're not Republicans is that the R's have been taken over by lunatics.

[pampango]

32. Didn't Clinton get support from republicans for all those programs you mentioned?

And didn't progressives in congress largely vote against the Clinton policies you're talking about.

One big difference with this HCR is that progressives in congress will largely support it (unlike those Clinton initiatives which they did not support) and republicans will unanimously oppose it (again unlike the support they gave to Clinton). In that sense you could say that the left is being listened to (at least more than Clinton did) and the right is not.

[Cal33]

49. The Neocons are in the business of destroying any president

who is not Neocon. That's their only interest. They can't see anything else.

[TreasonousBastard]

34. It sure is getting old...

personally, I never thought NAFTA was such a bad idea, and even thought better of it when Perot made such a big deal of it. The anti-trade types really should come up with actual proof that we were hurt and not just assume it as fact. And maybe some pressure for the environmental provisions to be enforced? Same with the '96 Telecommunications Act-- what was so bad about that that would be better if nothing was done?

Welfare reform, DADT, and a bunch of other stuff Clinton did was nasty, but the left and the rest were just pissing in the wind of the politics of the day back then.

But now, it's not so much "The Left" I see panning HLC, it's the wingnut right doing most of it, with some of the left doing its usual predictions of doom-- every silver lining must have a cloud.

Public option is still possible, but the original screaming for single-payer was never possible in this country. Japan doesn't have it and most of Europe doesn't have it because they all evolved different systems-- throwing out a quarter of the GDP and replacing it with a hope and a dream just isn't possible anywhere.

[MadHound]

39. Wow, those are sure some big blinders you have on there.

The proof about NAFTA is all around us, in the destruction of Detroit and other manufacturing communities, the fact that within twenty years we have gone from a sane, stable, manufacturing based economy to an unstable, low paying service economy. Look around you, the proof is there.

As far as the Telecom Act, again, look around. Do you really like the fact that over ninety percent of our media is controlled by six, count them six, major corporations? Our media has become nothing more than a propaganda organ, all thanks to the Telecom Act. There was no need to pass it, it was simply a gift to corporate America.

Public option still possible? LOL! Like environmental controls for NAFTA? Like reimposing the Glas-Steagal Act? That kind of possible?

The left never "screamed" for a single payer option, we recognized that was impossible in this political climate, but the PO was hugely popular and that was possible, if the Dems had fought for it. Instead they caved and we're left with this mess of "reform" that is going to destroy the middle and working class.

[damyank913]

44. You don't think Detroit bears any responsibility for it's own destruction?

Talk about blinders.

[TreasonousBastard]

45. Show me numbers about the loss of jobs and...

how they went to Mexico, not Canada or China-- Canada with a free trade deal since the '80s (when we started moving car assembly up there) and China with no special deal at all. And where was everyone when JP Stevens and the rest moved their operations from the Northeast to the Sunbelt decimating large swaths of Massachussetts, New Jersey and New York. Chasing cheap labor is what companies do, and NAFTA gave them no incentives to move to Mexico faster than they already were.

How about exports to Mexico, btw? Part of the deal was for them to remove tariffs on US goods-- did exports to Mexico increase, stand still, or fall? You can't speakl of NAFTA unless you know.

90% of our media? What media is that and what effect did the Telecommunications Act have on newspapers, books, and magazines? You're gonna blame a law for the populace preferring to sit on their fat asses watching American Idol to spending a few bucks on newspaper and magazine subscriptions? Too bad the competition provisions of the act were never enforced, but consolidation was happening long before the act was signed.

I heard a lot of screaming for single payer, and still do. Don't rewrite history to prove yourself prescient.

[MadHound]

59. China with no special deal at all? Wow, I guess Most Favored Nation Trading Status belies its name

As far as NAFTA job losses, start here <http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/briefingpapers_bp147/>

What the Telecom Act did was remove restrictions on media mergers, allowing corporations to become virtual monopolies. Go educate yourself on that one starting here <http://www.freepress.net/ownership/chart/main>, and then go from there.

Your rosy view of the actions taken by the Clinton administration are entertaining, naive, foolish and wrong, but still entertaining. The faults of the Clinton administration are well known, go educate yourself about them.

[TreasonousBastard]

106. I guess you don't know that "most favored nation" status is the...

normal staus for any nation in the WTO. It just means that if you give one WTO nation a deal, you have to give it to everyone. It was a big battle to get China into the club, and I'm not sure it was worth it at the time, but it was inevitable. Now that it's in, it has the same status as France.

And I still fail to see how NAFTA itself caused all those job losses-- it's something that had been going on for quite a while already, and just because someone says it's so doesn't make it so, even if accompanied by irrelevant statistics (i.e.- trade deficit numbers do not automatically translate to job gains or losses)

Were there no mergers before the Telcom Act? It actually did have provisions to prevent monopolies, but they were never enforced.

Frankly, I don't think any of these were any great shakes one way or the other, I simply object to the constant use of them to make silly points.

[MadHound]

108. Well, that's why I listen to actual economists, not anonymous internet posters like yourself

Because they generally know what the hell their talking about, and have actual facts to back their ass up with, unlike yourself and your vague thoughts on the matter.

Go educate yourself, go look at the numbers, the material is out there, much more than what I linked to.

Oh, and WTO status, and MFN status have nothing to do with each other. China was originally granted MRN status in 1979. China joined the WTO in 1995. The controversial, stupid renewal of China's MFN took place in '97. The least you could do is get your shit straight before you start spewing it. It just makes you look stupid otherwise.

Your ignorance on, or deliberate misrepresentation of, these matters is absolutely stunning. Again, go educate yourself.

[TreasonousBastard]

118. Technically, I am an actual economist, since that's what my degree is in...

but I'll admit that doesn't mean much by now. But, it probably means I know at least a little more about the subject than you, and while I don't give a shit one way or another about winning an argument or if you live your life in ignorance, some things should be corrected for the unwary who might be reading all this.

You did say something about China's MFN status being special earlier, did you not? And is it not simply fancy words for "we will trade with you" thereby being not so special, as a treaty or trade bloc would be? That's with or without the WTO, but the WTO is currently the governing body.

[waiting]

35. I support passing this bill

It can be fixed to better represent our position as long as people stay involved and on top of their reps. It is better than what we have now, and needs to be passed. Otherwise, we hand a victory over to the repugs and that is not an option.

[MadHound]

37. LOL! Like NAFTA has been fixed?

Like DADT has been fixed? Like financial regulations have been fixed.

Such naivete is funny and touching, but naivete nonetheless.

Nothing is going to be fixed in this bill, absolutely nothing.

[waiting]

42. You don't know that

And the fact is without this bill 30 million Americans go uncovered. If the will is there and the pressure remains, there will be changes made. That is entirey up to the voters. If they don't put the pressure on, it won't get done. This bill is still better than no bill and nothing being done.

[MadHound]

61. Judging by history, I can confidently say that there will be no "fix"

As far as "30 million people go uncovered" yeah, they'll get covered, at a high cost SINCE THE GOVERNMENT IS FORCING THEM, UNDER PENALTY OF LAW TO GET COVERAGE! And you don't think premiums won't go up under this mandated monopoly:eyes: Wow, and centerists accuse the left of believing in unicorns.

As far as will and pushing politicians, I've seen that no working for over thirty years, the people push and push, do all the right things, while the Dems simply do what their corporate masters tell them to do.

Frankly this bill is worse than doing nothing, it will destroy the middle and working class. Are you prepared for that? And when that happens are you prepared to admit that you were wrong? And if you finally admit that you're wrong, will you be prepared to do something other than the same ol' same ol' support the Dems right or wrong schtick?

[Edweird]

99. There will be no 'fix'. It's a dream. The senate bill is what Obama wants.That's all you're getting

[dionysus]

40. if i didnt know better, i'd say you were a smidgeon bitter.

[MadHound]

109. LOL, just a smide, just a tad, just a wee bit.

Frankly, and sadly, I've become resigned to a bipartisan screwing.

[3324SS]

46. It Sucks being Right all the Time

but this time I hope the rotten fruit does not bloom until I have a chance to GTFO of the USA for good.

But I doubt it, the mandate is nothing but a gift to big insurance.

If it had price controls for medical and prescriptions that could be acceptable and workable.

As it stands now things are going to get really ugly by the time the mandates kick in.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mari333]

47. shit yeah, I was out protesting Clinton during this, and when he sucked GOP tit for welfare' reform'

and then his flyovers over Iraq and sanctions on the children of Iraq..
I remember it well.
Clinton did exactly what the GOP loved, it cinched Reagan's union busting and huge tax breaks for US corporations, when Reagan opened up China for the cheap labour pool (and that is why he did it)..

Reagan promised everyone the corporate tax breaks would create jobs in the USA..

nope, they took the monies and ran to China and every country they could find to avoid paying decent wages

Clinton sold out with NAFTA, promising it would be fixed.

Now, it is why we sit in states with nothing but burger flipping jobs, if that.


they never fixed it, so why the hell should be trust the current admin. with this health care crap??

they wont fix it, mark my words.

[hayu_lol]

50. Sixteen years ago, Hillary told the nation that we had a crisis...

in our healthcare system. About half the knives that were quickly stuck in both Clinton's backs were from the left. Granted that the right, under Newt's leadership, was using swords and spears instead of knives didn't help any at all.

The Clintons continue to be attacked for whatever they tried to accomplish by their own party. Those who contributed at the time are suffering the consequences of their actions now.

This country can afford a Single-Payer National Health Plan and should make that attempt now. The 'reform the sick' bill that seeks to enrich the health insurance corporations, big Pharma, and the like is just plainly a bad bill. Every Tom, Dick, Harry, and Dennis have contributed to make of this so-called reform bill, a legal nightmare. The fine print will make attorneys quite wealthy...at least those who are not yet in that exalted state.

Fix it? When? Remember Biden's flawed bankruptcy bill and the Repugnants Medicare, Part D? When will they be fixed? Waiting. Eternity will arrive first.

[Mari333]

52. the only 'fix' is the one thats already in.

nothing will be fixed later.

they had a chance, they blew it.

[kctim]

53. As a moderate

I cannot blindly acknowledge the validity and intelligence of the liberal stance on the issues, because success and failure is based entirely on personal opinions I do not always agree with. I seldom see that the facts show that the success is as great as, or the failure as dire as, liberals believe it to be.

Tell you what, as a moderate, I will gladly start paying more attention. Just as soon as the "left" stops falsely believing they know whats best for me and that the country is always screwed because EVERYTHING is not done how they say.

[MadHound]

62. Oh, so we should simply believe that moderates know what's best for the country

Given the moderates' track record (NAFTA, DADT, Telecom Act, etc. etc.) sorry, but I can't believe that one either.

So, do you like Social Security and Unemployment Insurance? How about Civil Rights, Womens' rights, Gay rights? Guess what, all those started on the left.

What have the moderates brought us? Yeah, nothing but pain and corporatism.

Continue being part of the problem, just don't come running to me crying when this so called health care "reform" blows up in all our faces. I will have absolutely no sympathy.

[Ignis]

65. Moderates like to bill themselves as the adults at the table.

But we've seen how well their sell-outs and triangulation have helped and protected the health and welfare of the average, working-class American.

What kind of freakin' "adult" couldn't have seen through the unmitigated crap that was the IWR?

:argh:

[kctim]

115. Now you know I did not say that

What I did say though, is that one's personal opinion is what influences one's view of this "track record" you speak of and that the success or failure of such things are exaggerated by liberals in order to justify the liberal stance.

It is a shame that you view moderate Dems as a problem, rather than the vital partner you need to be effective.

And you don't EVER have to worry about us running to you crying as far as this HCR blowing up in our faces. Whether it was a single payer mandate, public option mandate or the mandate we have now, ANY mandate was going to hurt come the next few elections. Luckily, most are smart enough to realize that this bill will not be as great as some are saying or as destructive as others are predicting.

[BurtWorm]

57. Unrecommend.

I want health care reform to pass. I'm not a centrist or a DLCer. You on the other hand are a grandstanding demonizer. Unrecommend.

[MadHound]

63. So, what I'm saying about Clinton's policies is untrue?

Or is it that the truth hurts too much for you to acknowledge.

That's fine, when this monstrosity of a bill kicks in here in a few years, and you find yourself and your middle class family and working class friends going down the tubes due to skyrocketing insurance premiums, remember this moment and kick yourself for being a dumbass on this issue.

[BurtWorm]

64. What's not true is your grandstanding characterization of people who want to see this bill pass

as DLCers, Clintonites, NAFTA supporters and other dregs of centrism. You're getting a lot of strokes from your fellow demonizers so it feels good. But it doesn't make your oversimplification valid or worthy.

[MadHound]

66. So you're saying that the primary supporters of this bill aren't centerists, DLCer's etc.?

Sure looks that way to me, both on this board and out in the real world.

But that's really not the main point of my post. The main point is that the left has been so spot on correct, for so very long, don't you think that it's time to start listening to them?

[BurtWorm]

67. It's way past time to 'start listening' to the left.

I don't object to that part of your message. I object to the mindless demonizing of people who disagree with you on any one issue as fucking DLCers. That's a narrow-minded--even pinheaded way of looking at things. Very easy to do though when you have a crowd cheering you on. Very difficult to stop being an asshole and start being reasonable when you're getting stroked for being an asshole.

[MadHound]

68. Well, as I said before, given the nature of the supporters for HCR,

Both here and in the real world, I think that using the term DLCers, centerists or moderates is justified, because they are the ones who are most in support of this bill. If that offends you, oh well. Let me clue you in on something else, it is centerists, moderates and DLCers who were the driving force behind those Clinton policies I mentioned. And, let's not forget that Clinton himself was a member of the DLC.

Sorry if the truth hurts, sorry if it offends you, but it is the truth nonetheless. Deal with it.

[BurtWorm]

70. Your ignoring the truth is what hurts.

As I say, I know you have no incentive to do justice to the truth, so I can't say I blame you. You're human after all.

I wish political discourse, even among alleged allies, were a lot more intelligent and honest. It's just dumb, wherever you go. Always zero sum. Always good guys versus bad guys. Always stark black and white. Always utterly dumb.

PS: If you want to convince me losing this bill without another that can win ready to go is bad for people, you need to drop the demonizing and speak sensibly. I know you're not interested in that because you have the crowd on your side. What's one more or less in the crowd?

[MadHound]

73. I'm saying what I've always said before about this bill

That despite so called price controls on this bill, premiums for everybody are going to continue to rise. Why, because there are loopholes big enough to drive trucks through that will continue to allow gouging by the insurance industry. Don't believe me, go read the bill yourself. Furthermore I guarantee you that at this very instant there is an army of lawyers combing through the bill to in order to find and exploit those loopholes. This ongoing rise in premiums is going to kill the middle and working class.

Second of all, despite there being a ban on pre-existing conditions, those who are deemed as such are going to continue to have a rough time because the insurance industry can charge much extra to their insurance for a high co-pay, little pay out policy. What could is removing the ban on pre-existing conditions if you still can't afford basic health care?

Third, people like me, who work in low-paying, high benefit jobs (I'm a teacher) are going to get screwed, since I'll now have to pay in more precious cash that I don't have(remember, teacher here) in the form of taxes while the rich get to skate, again.

It that to the intelligent enough for you? Does that make sense? Or am I simply doing more "demonizing":eyes:

[BurtWorm]

77. I'm not in favor of this bill passing for any reason other than keeping Republicans out of power.

There's no way to know right now if this really will continue the slide of enriching the rich and impoverishing the poor that's been going on for the last 30 years. You think it will; I don't know. You're asking me to take your word for it because "the left" has been right about everything. I take offense at that because I'm a lefty who wants the bill to pass, and I don't need any self-appointed guardians of the club to validate that for me. I know where I am.

[MadHound]

98. But why bother keeping the 'Pugs out of power

If the Dems are going to act just like them? That's the whole point, we're operating under a two party/same corporate master system of government that just rearranges the deck chairs, but fails at producing any meaningful change for we the people.

Nice to know where you are, but the question is how much longer can you support a party that continues to act against our best interests? We rightfully derided the 'Pugs who do this, shouldn't the same standard apply to the Dems?

[BurtWorm]

117. I don't support the Democrats. I want to keep the fascists out of power.

That's my main goal for American politics at this stage in the country's deterioration. That is the absolute best we can hope for for the foreseeable future. It's fun to dress up and play utopian, but we live in a real shithole of a country. I don't know whether you've noticed.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. Other things the Left was correct about:

There are WMDs in Iraq; that war is all about oil.
We shouldn't repeal Glass-Steagall
No Child Left Behind will harm American education
Barack Obama is no Leftist.
Administering "shock therapy" to Eastern Europe and Russia will cause immense misery.
The Afghan rebels are not "freedom fighters" but backward religious fanatics who hate women
"Free" trade will depress working class wages and reduce social mobility
The 2000 election was stolen.

[FiveGoodMen]

93. That's another good list!

[dajoki]

69. K&R

[Greyhound]

72. Great post.

One quibble, They never acknowledge that we were right from the beginning, they take credit. They are parasites, nothing more.
:kick: & R

[Blue_Tires]

88. i surprised at how few people discuss the ramifications of the Telecom act

we see the results every day and things still haven't hit bottom yet...

[FiveGoodMen]

89. Hell, yes!

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[fascisthunter]

92. Good luck... they'll never swallow what pride they have

nor are they good negotiators nor are they trustworthy and principled.

[Edweird]

100. K&R

[tavalon]

101. I'm part of the lefty choir here

I keep saying we needed FDR and we got Bill Clinton 2. One of the reasons I decided against Hillary Rodham Clinton is I felt she would govern like her husband did and we didn't need Republican light. Seems like it didn't matter, Obama governs just like Clinton. We really needed something different. We bounce between rabid right wing and right wing soft and so on and so on and so the fuck on.......

[MadHound]

112. I was right there with you

Didn't want Clinton II, but was never truly impressed with Obama either. The only reason I voted Dem is because I couldn't bear the thought of Sarah Palin a heartbeat away from the Oval Office.

Don't think I'll be playing that game again.

[tavalon]

102. I've heard through the grapevine that you and I are fucking retards

Welcome under the short bus.

[Ean Juan]

103. Recommended. The Left also opposed the war in Iraq

We're often right. Centrists are often wrong.

[MadHound]

111. Spot on, and welcome to DU

:hi:

[donheld]

104. So you'd prefer nothing?

[MadHound]

110. No, I don't prefer nothing

I would prefer that the left is listened to, gets thrown a bone once in a while, has our opinion taken seriously, made to feel appreciated.

You know, the last time the left was seriously listened to was during FDR's administration. Now he threw us some bones, bones quite frankly that have become the backbone of the Democratic platform, things like Social Security and Unemployment Insurance. See what happens when you listen to the left? You get great, iconic programs that have done countless good.

Don't you think we should try listening to the left again?

[amborin]

105. K&R remember when ghastly Senate bill 1st passed & the "supporters" told everyone to calm down, it

wouldn't be the final bill......

surely, except for the paid shills (and there are about 5, in addition to the most infamous), most of the loyalists know now, in their hearts, that this HCR is a sham.

[snooper2]

114. The telecommunications act of 96 was great for the telecom industry...

One large negative out of that bill was consolidation of media ownership...

[AngryOldDem]

116. I don't think it's just those on the left who cry in the wilderness...

It's anyone who dares to buck the groupthink.

I'm looking forward -- well, not really -- to the coming years when people realize what a piece of shit this health care "reform" really is.

Good post, though -- great food for thought.

[Blue_Tires]

119. ttt

[waiting for hope]

121. K&R

:thumbsup: