Robert Gibbs publicly admits a 4-year delay in implementing the adult preexisting condition rule.

[seafan]

WH Press Secretary Robert Gibbs acknowledged today during his press briefing that the rule prohibiting insurance companies from excluding adults for preexisting conditions will not take effect for another four years.


This is the first time I have heard this publicly stated by an official of the administration.


Today. Three days before the purported vote.



Now, the question is, will our media report this to the American people before this debacle of a vote?


Somehow, I don't think most people will take this little piece of shrouded information lightly.


With all the celebration going on about how 'historic' this bill is, the people are finding out that they will not see any benefits for 4 more years for one of the mainstays in how this monstrously flawed Senate health care bill was sold to us.



So, for 4 more years, the lives of adults with preexisting conditions will be destroyed by the backroom deals made between the president and Big Health.


Are they hoping for the ink to dry on this bill before the people find out?


Don't the people of this country deserve better than THIS?

MR. GIBBS: .....

Tom.

Q I have two quick questions.

MR. GIBBS: Yes.

Q First, earlier this week -- sorry, I have two questions. First, earlier this week, both Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore pointed out that the preexisting condition provision of the legislation doesn’t take effect for another four years, and I’m wondering if you could tell us, was that a concession, and if so, who fought for that and what did they -- what did you get in return?

MR. GIBBS: There is --

Q For adults, that is.

MR. GIBBS: Right. Well, again, the -- as I described earlier and as the President has described, there are certain things that cannot be instituted until you have everyone in the system. Obviously this is a piece of legislation that phases in over the course of many years those changes. And as a result of that phasing in, when that's done, preexisting conditions for adults will be outlawed. But understand this -- when this becomes law, an insurance company will no longer be able to discriminate against a child that has -- that they believe or says that has a preexisting condition.

Q That’s on day one.

MR. GIBBS: Right.

Q Children. And so it’s pegged to the mandate then, is that fair to say?

MR. GIBBS: Yes.

.....

Notice that Gibbs did not answer the question of 'who pushed for this, was it a concession, and what might he have gotten in return.....'



Four more years of greed by insurance companies in the face of hardship and helplessness of sick people?



Oh, it's just because it will take that long 'to get everyone into the system'.


Not at all like expanding Medicare might accomplish right away, you see.




I just cannot describe the sense of betrayal we are enduring.

[Schema Thing]

1. "Admits" Dude, this has been out there for months.

[Larkspur]

4. Yet, when some of us pointed that out, we were attacked by the pro-HCR gang

Obama and his blind supporters are learning the Repub art of "bait and switch".

[PatrynXX]

160. Gotta start somewhere though.

Right now something is better than nothing. I've been screwed for 9 yrs on pre existing , whats another 4 years. (grumble)

[defendandprotect]

179. Hey, be thankful for "lesser of evils" and . . .

bread crumbs!!

And worship the bread-crumb givers?

Try this -- and mobilize --


http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Top left/Petition

[puebloknot]

267. And "suffer the little children to come unto" whom, when their parents ...

... are too sick to care for them and can't get help because they were careless enough to have a "pre-existing" condition?!?

This is the insult of all insults to We, the People.

A pre-existing condition for entering politics seems to be complete moral degeneracy (with the exception of a few)!

I could have a stroke, but I'm not sure I could get help, so I won't!

[robinblue]

266. its the anything for a bill mantra!!

[Ysabela]

273. Or maybe Obama will show some balls and break out the SIGNING STATEMENTS! :D

One can only hope.

[Bluebear]

13. I was "corrected" that this was not true only yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7940772

[laughingliberal]

39. They are not allowed to tell us until the White House says so

If it ain't in the administration's talking points, yet, it can't be true. Or it's a truth you don't have any need to know about.

[Bluebear]

41. :NODDING:

[roguevalley]

55. 2014 is an abomination. A total abomination.

[whathehell]

98. + 10.

[RaleighNCDUer]

191. Actually, 2014 is simply the date when the presidency rotates back

to the republicans (that is, the electioneering begins then, before the next republican president is selected). The democrats know this, and know they won't be fighting for the presidency in '16, which makes 2014 the opportune date for it to go into effect, just in time for the republicans to run on it.

[pundaint]

211. In his big speech last Summer he told us to hold him accountable for this bill -

hence the delivery date after his presumable last election. I intend to hold him accountable for the state of healthcare in 12, and 11 as well. 2014 indeed!

[ihavenobias]

234. That's insulting.

But also 100% correct. Sort of like how Republicans say we should reject science because of a liberal agenda.

For 8 years they didn't believe it unless the Bush Admin (or Fox, Rush, etc.) said it. Much to my disgust, we're seeing something along those lines on the left now.

[Bluebear]

250. +1

[quiet.american]

165. It's not. nt

[whathehell]

97. If by "out there" you mean whispered about on a few boards like this, I guess you could say that.

Clearly, it's been VERY much downplayed by the administration for obvious reasons: It's another big Sucky concession.

I hope the adults who have to wait four years won't mind dying in the meantime.:eyes:

[Schema Thing]

102. By "out there" I mean "any semi-informed person has no excuse not to know it long ago"

[whathehell]

123. Gee...then judging from the posts here, there's a whole lot of Ignorant DUer's?

I think not, honey...But keep up "the good fight".

..I'm SURE Obama can "do no wrong"..:evilgrin:

[WinkyDink]

132. Since when were all the details printed in the media?

[defendandprotect]

180. Howard Dean, Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz and Michael Moore all confirmed that ...

so does the legislation!!

Yet, DLC continued to deny and distort -- much of the truth about this bill!!

Which by the way SUCKS!

[defendandprotect]

178. Come on . . . DLC'ers here have been trying to hide that monster . . .!!!

[TheEuclideanOne]

202. Well, it is 4 years less than NEVER!!!!!

I am sure that the Republicans will be arguing that it needs to start immediately and will be criticizing the plan for the 4 year delay. At the same time, they are happy for it to never kick in.

[EFerrari]

2. Michael Moore was right.

[aquart]

22. Yes, he is.

I want to know if our Democratic Congress thinks we're going to throw them a party for this murder Americans bill of crap they're handing us?

[EFerrari]

32. The Supreme Court said, the Democrats don't have to care what we think. n/t

[pecwae]

81. And they don't.

[Jefferson23]

113. I wish I could be directed to exactly where it states in the bill that individuals

who will now be covered despite pre-existing conditions will NOT be charged exorbitant rates.

[humbled_opinion]

239. Excellent point

You can't because its not there and whats worse is you will be forced under penalty of law to pay the insurance industry. I am telling you that Democrats are going to get Hammered with this and it is going to be much easier to point out the negatives then the positives in this crappy bill.

Now for the truly ironic part. Democrats sure to lose the house and senate in 2010 because of this crappy bill will have laid the ground work. Repukes who are lock step against it will use this as a wedge blame Democrats for all the problems and when they take charge they will permenantly cement the provisions they like (mandated insurance under penalty) and totally destroy the provisions they don't like (public options, employer costs, womens health) and still blame the Democrats... and there will be no way for Democrats to shake the stigma because if the Democrats had not fought so hard this would never be on the front burner.

If we were going to fight to the political death (if you will) for something, then it should have been a truly socialized medical program where the government controlled costs, rates, and provided the services etc i.e., a Single Payer. but nope that was taken off the table by the very Democrats that demand other Democrats support this crap.

[Jefferson23]

243. If those controls don't exist, which are essential re: pre-existing conditions, then

what is the point? The consumer won't be able to purchase it, and I find that lack of disclosure, pathetic.

Also, I understand that the anti trust exemption may be voted on separately, I hope I am wrong about that.

[rpannier]

270. What the bill says is that companies will be fined if they don't insure ppl with pre-existing cond

So, if it's cheaper to pay the fine and wait out this persons death, that's what they're going to do

But in 4 years the federal government will take care of that problem

[Jefferson23]

271. So, it is still possible that the insured will have higher premiums as

a result of their pre-existing condition...just not be refused.

[gilpo]

145. Yeah. A going away party n/t

[Echo In Light]

95. +1

[Lorien]

152. absolutely.nt

[quiet.american]

171. Moore was factually wrong that people would have to wait four years for access to coverage.

He apparently did not know about the high risk pool for adults:

http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/IMMEDIATE_PROVISIONS.pdf

12. IMMEDIATE HELP FOR THE UNINSURED UNTIL EXCHANGE IS AVAILABLE (INTERIM HIGH‐RISK POOL)—Provides immediate access to insurance for Americans who are uninsured because of a pre‐existing condition ‐ through a temporary high‐risk pool. Effective 90 days after enactment.

Here is the item regarding children - they're two different things:

6. NO DISCRIMINATON AGAINST CHILDREN WITH PRE‐EXISTING CONDITIONS—Prohibits health insurers from denying coverage to children with pre‐existing conditions. Effective 6 months after enactment. (Beginning in 2014, this prohibition would apply to all persons.)

Obama at his rally today:

"Starting this year, thousands of uninsured Americans with preexisting conditions will be able to purchase health insurance, some for the very first time. Starting this year, insurance companies will be banned forever from denying coverage to children with preexisting conditions. Starting this year, insurance companies will be banned from dropping your coverage when you get sick. And they’ve been spending a lot of time weeding out people who are sick so they don’t have to pay benefits that people have already paid for. Those practices will end."

But to be fair, if what's posted is the extent of Gibbs' comments, he did a terrible job in getting this across.

edited for typos

[defendandprotect]

182. "At long last, have you no sense of decency" ... ? The woman cannot afford the insurance!!

And most of what these American citizens will be forced to buy

will be "junk" insurance!!



http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

[quiet.american]

186. Just ridiculous. nt

[gravity]

3. This was known all along

and they can't implement that rule unless there is a mandate in place.

If you implement the mandate tomorrow, even more people would be pissed, so they delay to give everyone time to adjust.

[kestrel91316]

17. They sure as hell CAN implement that rule before the mandate is in place.

Just look at CA. For years now we have had a law that medical insurers cannot deny coverage due to pre-existing conditions, and no one in CA is required to buy it. It's simple. You just pass the law.

Of course, they find other ways to deny coverage here, lol. I got denied PROCESSING of my application because the insurance co SUPPOSEDLY couldn't get a copy of my prior medical records from my doctor, even though there was nothing of interest there. And they have to insure you, they just don't have to COVER pre-existing conditions, just new stuff.

[Sgent]

166. California (and New York)

have insurance premiums 4x the national average for just that reason.

[defendandprotect]

183. This legislation also doesn't safeguard states against lawsuits if they want single payer!!

See the Democracy Now! interview with Kucinich/Nader --

[sabrina 1]

42. It shouldn't even be a part of this bill. We went to war in two

countries because nearly 3,000 Americans were killed. Four years = 176,000 dead Americans. That is a national security issue multiple times greater than any possible terrorist attack. What hypocrites they are.

To stop this there should be a stand-alone law that no Insurance Corps who takes money from customers can refuse to provide care, or refuse to accept sick people. It is ludicrous, Orwellian, to entrust the health of Americans to a for-profit industry that claims to be a 'health care' industry, and then accept the fact that they will only cover people who are not likely to get sick. In fact, it is a sick concept and incredible to think that they were able to get away with it for so long. Anyone who is willing to support this, or to ignore it, imo has some serious problems of their own. And that is who we are to trust with the lives of the American people.

I blame the American people. No one other modern democratic society would even consider such a system.

On this board, defenders of this accused Dennis Kucinich of wanting to 'kill 45,000 people'. The twisted thinking of these people is pure evil. I can't think of any other word to describe it.

[inna]

69. +1,000 and thank you.

[laughingliberal]

71. +10,000 nt

[Lorien]

153. Yep.

:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

184. Thank you -- and 180,000 will die before 2014 according to Harvard Medical Research....

[Bluebear]

268. shaking head.

[laughingliberal]

51. Perhaps it was known all along but, then again, there have been people saying it wasn't true

when some tried to point this out. Now, when those same people are shown they were wrong, it was known all along and is old news and there is nothing to see, here. Move along.

[defendandprotect]

185. "If you repeat a lie long enough" . ..

people begin to believe it's true!!

:)

[Gin Blossom]

233. This was perfected during the Bush years.

No WMD in Iraq? That's old news, everybody knows that! The facts were "fixed" to invade Iraq? That news is so ancient, I don't know why anybody would bring that up! Besides everybody thought the opposite was true way back when!

[pattmarty]

83. You can't be fucking serious?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

147. Wow I dont know whether to laugh at this comment

or be sad about it. The lengths people will go to to defend this thing.

[Oregone]

5. I dont think they should make a mandate before they prove they have a fair system for all

They want to mandate it before a provision to promote fairness is even in effect

[defendandprotect]

188. This isn't universal health care, everyone in, no one out -- it's a tiered-system . . .

which labels some people poor, some not so poor, some poorest --

with INCOME TESTING . . . which is an old GOP gimmick which they'd

like to apply to Medicare!

As Howard Dean commented the other night on TV . . . this is NOT health care reform --

it's a "Romney-type system" ---

and, IMO, will do more harm to good -- not only physically to health of citizens but to

taxpayers.

Great loss here!

[napi21]

6. I think there is to e a hhigh risk pool set up to cover those people in the interim.

I've heard about it a few times but I don't remember what shows I heard it on. It's almor a guarantee that I heard about it on MSNBC because that's the channel I have on 98% of the time.

[Tansy_Gold]

11. Even so, I wonder just what the premiums will be for that "high risk" pool.

Don't you?

[Cleobulus]

14. Or the deducts. n/t

[laughingliberal]

40. Not really. I'm pretty sure the words, "out of reach" would cover it. nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. Texas currently has a "high risk" pool. That "insurance"

(read, we'll try to save your butt if you have a heart attack/stroke/organ failure, but visits and prescriptions aren't covered) would cost me around $900, and I would have to cover my son (a perfectly healthy 11 year old) with the same shitty non coverage. This high risk pool, currently administered by our friends at BC/BS would continue in effect in Texas if the vote goes through. It would also continue to be my only option.

I opted to increase my life insurance benefits instead, while I order prescriptions from India and hope for the best.

[eridani]

68. It will be similar to pools that already exist at the state level

The "insurance" provided is such worthless overpriced garbage that few people take advantage of them.

[defendandprotect]

190. It's "junk insurance" with no guarantees of care . . . and a government which doesn't care!!

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kolesar]

136. that's a bit much...eom

[defendandprotect]

189. Another labeling of American citizens . . . "poor" and "high risk" ... !!!

This is a tiered system -- based on INCOME TESTING and continuing

unfair treatment of those who have any preexisting condition -- even yeast infections!!

[Xipe Totec]

At this point, I don't care anymore

just pass the damned thing and start over again from there.

It is better to have this pieceof cr... legislation on the books and work for a better bill from there, that to defeat this bill, flawed though it may be.

[pattmarty]

85. Well you're wrong. This bill institutionalizes privatization into the system........

.........Once that happens say good bye to any future reform. We are fucked.

[Xipe Totec]

94. Without it we're fucked anyway, so what difference does it make?

[pattmarty]

96. Well, why pass something that costs so much and actually will.............

..................make things worse?

[Lorien]

154. Indeed. There will be no "do overs"

and the denial of that fact will be our undoing, along with the passage of this insurance bailout bill.

[defendandprotect]

192. They will NOT start over again if this passes . . . the new attacks will be

on Medicare and Social Security --

Get ready -- Mobilize!

[Xipe Totec]

226. They will certainly not start over if it fails

And guess who will be blamed then.

[OneBlueSky]

232. while I thoroughly understand (and share) your frustration, I disagree . . .

that we should just pass this inane bill and then start over a year from now . . . as another DUer has pointed out, this will institutionalize the privatization of the healthcare system once and for all, and that is NOT a good thing . . . much better to defeat this so-called "reform" and start over when our "leaders" are finally ready to BEGIN with a public option as the first and essential feature of a true reform package . . .

there's a big difference between healthcare reform and insurance company largesse . . . the former we desperately need; the latter will simply make the rich richer and the corporations even more powerful, both at the expense of the rest of us . . . the whole premise of this bill is wrong, wrong, wrong, and if it passes we will regret, regret, regret it for years to come . . .

the only thing driving this bill at this point is Obama's political life, which may hang in the balance . . . what he doesn't realize, though, is that the political repercussions will be just as bad for him whether the bill passes or is defeated . . . he's got himself into a classic Catch-22 situation, and unless he changes his underlying assumptions about healthcare reform and acts accordingly, he's gonna lose no matter what happens with this bill . . .

[Xipe Totec]

246. The fact of the matter is, flawed though this bill might be,

If it fails to pass, they will have absolutely no political clout to pass anything for the next six years. Period.

It will be the Clinton health care impasse all over again.

I am not in love with this bill, but I am realistic enough to understand that killing this bill is akin to blocking health care reform, any kind of health care reform, for the foreseable future.

Starting over is a non-starter.

If this fails you can kiss everything, and I mean everything, goodbye.

[katandmoon]

7. Whereas, if it were a bank or corporation bailout, it would go into effect immediately.

Obama sure has his priorities straight.

[Bluebear]

12. Yes, those entities are apparantly already "in the system"

[pattmarty]

87. Yeah, just like "credit card reform", he gave them a fucking year.................

................to jack up rates before the pitiful "reforms" took place. Fuck, they couldn't even get a cap on rates for christ sake. "Change we can believe in", fuck this I'm moving to Spain. (Wish I could)

[bvar22]

196. They got a Trillion Dollars to the Wall Street Bankers...

in LESS than a WEEK!

These bastards can MOVE when they want to.

Just goes to show you where Dying Americans are on their Priority list.

[liberation]

106. ... don't forget war escalation.

He sure got the funds and the will to send more of our kids over to Afghanistan in a New York minute, didn't he? Heck, he did not even let the Nobel Price get in the way.

But anything that has to do with helping the average citizen, then it is when things slow down to a crawl and have to overcome all sorts of resistance.

Once again, the progressives in this board railing against this farce of "reform" got it right. It gets tiring to be proven correct over and over again, while the DLC types et al who prove to deliver only hubris feel entitled to have the benefit of the doubt no matter what.


*sigh* So if they don't even consider enforcing the elimination of pre-existing conditions checks/penalties, how are we supposed to believe they are going to be implementing something orders of magnitude more complex (and which requires real ideological commitment) like a public option, never mind a single payer system.

[sendero]

8. And people think...

.... this bill is going to increase their access to health care.

IF the bill hasn't been repealed by the pukes within 4 years, the insurance companies will take advantage of the 10 foot holes in this language.

I still hope for a miracle that kills this vanity-press piece of shit legislation.

[emilyg]

61. I hope with you.

[defendandprotect]

193. This bill will also be major opportunity for insurance companies to "game" it --

[valerief]

9. As someone noted elsewhere, the elite like to play with their food before they eat it. nt

[Bluebear]

10. Doubletalk bullshit from the White House:

>there are certain things that cannot be instituted until you have everyone in the system<

[boston bean]

20. yep, can't make them do the right and moral thing until they can profit from it! nt

[defendandprotect]

195. I think the American voters were looking to Obama to do the "moral" thing here with

single payer -- they actually believed he would!

And it would be the right thing as well for government -- we'd save a lot

of taxpayer money!!!

How many Americans know that we are paying PER PERSON what the Swiss pay for

their very luxurious health care system -- and we get no care for our money!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Oh wait the DLC types have been telling me all week that I want people to die

because this bill will ban discrimination based on pre-existing conditions.

I thought I had heard that the provision would not go into effect for four years, but the DLCers told me I was wrong.

Turns out I was right?

Does anyone really know what's in this bill?

[Bluebear]

16. I heard the same crap lies yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7940772

And was told to please "stop spreading disinformation" :silly:

[laughingliberal]

29. You were right. And I was right. And everyone who has been telling us we were wrong was

lying.

And that's the name of that tune.

[defendandprotect]

198. Be careful of WHO you're reading here . . . and there are 2500 pages in this bill...

which the insurance companies can "game" as Nader put it in the

Kucinich/Nader interview by Amy Goodman -- see General Discussion

[Lydia Leftcoast]

235. Oh, I already know who the "just pass the damn bill; never mind what's in it" crowd are

There are people in that group who change the subject or start attacking if I ask pointed questions, so they immediately go onto the "Do Not Trust" list. :-)

[defendandprotect]

261. Okay . . .!!!

:)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Take 2 aspirin (if you can afford them) and call me back in 4 years.

[Bluebear]

19. Meanwhile, pray away your cancer, HIV, diabetes, etc.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Well, they'll be calling us for our votes every year.

In which case, I'll be telling them to take 2 aspirin.

[Posteritatis]

203. By which point the law will be amended to get allow the preexisting condition BS back anyway

That being, of course, the point of the delay.

[still_one]

21. It will cover people 26 or less with pre-existing conditions, unfortunately not

those others who also need it

Will they start to amend it after it passes?

My representative said they would

Do I trust him?

No, but actions will speak volumes

[mzmolly]

23. The house bill had a 90 day provision, I hope it remains. However, the outrage seems

a bit disingenuous from those who wanted this bill to die. Four years is better than NEVER.

[Bluebear]

25. 'Four years is better than NEVER.' - if you can last four years!

[mzmolly]

30. I'd like to see this provision immediately. But again the critique

is coming from those who supported risking that those with pre-existing conditions would NEVER get help.

[laughingliberal]

34. They won't get the help after 4 years, either

They'll get a policy that they can't afford and that they can't afford to use after they cough up the premium they couldn't afford to pay.

[Bluebear]

36. Or they'll be long dead.

[mzmolly]

37. That's what Limbaugh

asserts, yes. I on the other hand, know better.

[laughingliberal]

45. I'm pretty sure Limbaugh is not on the same page as I

My point is the policies will not cover enough. I'm pretty sure Limbaugh isn't asking for the health insurance policies to have lower out of pocket costs for the policy holder considering higher out of pocket costs are a right wing idea to force people to spend more of their own money. Remember? Bush's 'ownership society?' People who have to spend more of their own money will be more careful about how much health care they access. Remember? This is a Bush idea that is being incorporated into this plan.

Besides, you probably didn't believe it would be 4 years until people with preexisting conditions could get help. Now the President's press secretary confirmed what we've been saying about it.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dana_b]

73. notice

it's okay to wait when its something that they want but if its something that we want (like a PO), "oh no! no more fighting, there's no votes anyway, blah blah, blah - this thing has to pass now because people are dying NOW!!!" fuck it.

[mzmolly]

100. You and your ilk are not saying wait, you're saying if I don't get my way

kill the bill.

[liberation]

108. By "ilk" you mean your straw man argument?

Some of us don't consider ever diminishing standards enticing. Sorry that you accept mediocrity, but don't shovel it down our throats while pretending to have the higher moral ground.


This bill is an utter piece of sh*t, and will do more harm that good because it is going to stall proper health insurance reform for another generation at least.

[mzmolly]

110. Have you given up your own mediocre insurance coverage

to prove that no coverage is best?

No matter your rhetoric health insurance coverage saves 45K lives annually. This bill changes that. You don't have like how it does so, but you can't deny facts just because you don't like them.

The four year wait myth was just refuted by the President, in case you're curious.

[liberation]

114. Have your tried to make a point which does not depend on massive intellectual dishonesty

or logical fallacies?

What "facts" all I see there is your personal opinion, which you feel so entitled as to consider it as "facts."

And when was that refuted? Some of us do not get the daily DLC faxes... So who is Gibbs lying on this one? Because that is what you are implying.

[mzmolly]

116. What's dishonest is suggesing that everyone else is ok without

health insurance coverage ... but you and your family.

Gibbs was mistaken. The President just cleared it up on national television. See berni_mccoy's thread on the greatest page, or mine in GDP for more info.

[liberation]

119. Seriously, it is hard to keep up with the logical dissonance you are displaying...

I am not advocating people going without health coverage. I am advocating for ALL American citizens to have a proper health care coverage.

You keep trying to twist those who want proper reform as being the bad guys. So at this point I have no clue if such logical dissonance is due simply to runaway intellectual dishonesty, or just deeply ingrained doublethink. I want a "reform" not a "patch."

If you are OK with a "patch" fine, just don't call it "reform." Talk about wanting it both ways, good grief.

[mzmolly]

120. Advocating for death of this bill, IS advocating that

people go without health insurance coverage for an undetermined period of time. Again, having access to the current system saves 45,000 lives annually.

[stranger81]

169. This is complete and utter bullshit and disinformation.

There most certainly is a four-year waiting provision in the bill that means adults with pre-existing conditions will not be assured coverage for four more years. Gibbs was absolutely right, Obama did not walk back from that statement this morning (he underscored it by specifically saying children with pre-existing conditions get covered immediately, implying that's not the case for adults). Your bald statements to the contrary are nothing but lies.

What's your angle here, anyway?

[humbled_opinion]

125. If you can last?

You really didn't go there did you? That this is better then nothing argument is lame and a loser next thing you will tell me is the same people that give a shit about people will be in charge more then 1 year from now....

LOL get those pollyanna glasses off.

[EFerrari]

63. And that's a deflection from the contingent that were claiming Moore was wrong

the other night.

Also, I've yet to see anyone here say we should NEVER have actual health care reform.

[mzmolly]

101. I'm not sure he's correct yet. The house bill has a 90 day wait written into it.

That said, if it is four years that is too long. Perhaps we can agree to lobby our representatives to shorten that time frame? Regardless, children are covered immediately. That's a good thing.

[pattmarty]

89. I hate to say "I told you so", but I told you so.

[defendandprotect]

199. Yes . . . keep pushing the "lesser of evils" . . . !!! Yikes!!

[madrchsod]

26. how many will suffer because of this delay...?

20 more months and i won`t have preexisting bullshit cause i`ll have medicare....

[madrchsod]

27. someone must have the night off.....

[amborin]

72. i suspect

they're calling and emailing as I think the votes aren't there yet, thankfully

[mzmolly]

105. Yes thankfully reform may not pass and the four year wait for adults that people are bitching about

may become NEVER. PHEW! :sarcasm:

[amborin]

121. "reform"

what a joke

this bill prevents that

if it passes, a very hollow "victory"

[mzmolly]

127. No four year wait on pre-existing conditions.

Perhaps you've heard? Saving 45K lives each year is anything but hollow.

[amborin]

230. well that's good to learn

but are they assigned to a high risk pool?

how affordable is that?

[mzmolly]

104. Too many, if there is a four year delay.

Let's agree to lobby for a change in this provision, if it stands.

[defendandprotect]

200. 180,000 will die according to Harvard Medical Research in the "GAP" . . .!!!

See the Amy Goodman/Democracy Now!

Kucinich/Nader interview I posted in General --

[optimator]

28. surprised they haven't used this BS reasoning for not regulating Wall St.

"we can't regulate wall street until every citizen is forced to buy stocks from goldman sachs."

[depakid]

76. Oh just wait and see what the administration and the Senate Dems have in store for that!

[pattmarty]

90. Yeah, we'll have the same lockstep contingent of know nothings.........

..........telling us that this is FDR and it's 1933 all over again and Obama's fixes will stop all the abuses and excess pay and blah, blah, blah. "Change we can believe in".

[defendandprotect]

201. Wars and corrupt capitalism/bank failures aren't to be disrupted!!!

Only liberal/progressive ideals are to be considered disruptive!!


And, remember, that will include women's issues, union issues --

all New Deal programs -- including Social Security and Medicare!

MOBILIZE --

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. This thing will pass due to the party twisting the rules, then there will be an avalanche of truth

about just what bullshit was just passed into law. There will be a hue and cry the likes of which we haven't seen since W invaded Iraq. Many of our own will run for cover and say "I didn't get a chance to read the whole thing before I was forced to vote yes on it" in the hope they can save their asses the next time they're up for election. There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. The public will be told it was "for their own good".

All for the benefit of one man's legacy.

[EFerrari]

35. That's what I'm thinking, too. They're going to stand there

patting each other on the back for a bill Nancy doesn't even want them to vote on by name.

How "historic".

[laughingliberal]

47. There'll be so much spinning at that point we'll all need dramamine

Actually, there already is but it's going to really hit the fan when all the details emerge.

[cherokeeprogressive]

60. You can bet your bottom dollar that the details are where the Devil will be hiding

and they won't be made public until AFTER the vote. I also predict that AFTER the vote, the CBO will come out with revised numbers that put this thing WAY over what it's being touted as today.

Every time I see Nancy Pelosi on the news I feel like I have to go take a shower afterward.

I hope they're happy in November when they see how badly they fucked the party and for how long.

[LibDemAlways]

74. By passing and signing this POS, the Dems are handing the keys of Congress

to the repukes this fall. The Corporate media has been very silent about what's actually in the bill. They are no doubt poised and ready to reveal all the gory details after Obama signs it. Then the repukes will be able to sit back and loudly proclaim, "I never voted for it" while the Dems will be attempting the (most likely fruitless) ass covering measures you indicated.

This is truly one fucked up mess.

[defendandprotect]

204. Don't think they'll reveal the benefits for corporates...$300 billion taxpayer dollars ...

and more which will go to insurance/big pharma!!

Or that all of this was done in pre-deals in private by Obama/Rahma --

Down with corporate-Dems!!

MOBILIZE --

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[sellitman]

33. This one issue alone should have bi-partsian approval.

Every right wing asshat I know thinks pre-existing conditions should be a thing of the past.

Obama really sold his soul to the Devil it seems.

[defendandprotect]

205. Obama has sold out on pre-existing conditions . . . MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[ProSense]

38. " IMMEDIATE ACCESS TO INSURANCE FOR UNINSURED INDIVIDUALS WITH A PREEXISTING CONDITION"

SEC. 1101. IMMEDIATE ACCESS TO INSURANCE FOR UNINSURED INDIVIDUALS WITH A PREEXISTING CONDITION. (a) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall establish a temporary high risk health insurance pool program to provide health insurance coverage for eligible individuals during the period beginning on the date on which such program is established and ending on January 1, 2014.

PDF

It was always phased in.

MR. GIBBS: Right. Well, again, the -- as I described earlier and as the President has described, there are certain things that cannot be instituted until you have everyone in the system. Obviously this is a piece of legislation that phases in over the course of many years those changes. And as a result of that phasing in, when that's done, preexisting conditions for adults will be outlawed. But understand this -- when this becomes law, an insurance company will no longer be able to discriminate against a child that has -- that they believe or says that has a preexisting condition.

The fact is Americans with pre-existing conditions will have access to coverage.

[ScreamingMeemie]

44. Depending on the condition and depending on their ability to pay

to pay that "high risk" premium. This is not a win, this is not even a difference.

[ProSense]

46. "This is not a win, this is not even a difference." Nonsense. n/t

[Cleobulus]

48. So how much is this temporary high risk pool going to cost? n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

52. It is going to do absolutely nothing for me and my illness.

I will not be able to afford the cost of a premium based on a pre existing condition. This I know. Obtaining insurance has become my life's work since I was dropped in October.

It's truth, but you may continue to support that which doesn't really concern you.

[Bluebear]

58. I am very sorry for you :(

[misanthrope]

57. And depending on whether it will it will be cheaper for the insurance companies...

...to pay the fines than provide the insurance.

[defendandprotect]

206. MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[EFerrari]

64. No, that's not a fact. That's the WH press release. n/t

[Marr]

66. Remember when we used to mock Freepers for citing

White House press releases as proof of anything? It's bizarre seeing the same blind cheerleading bullshit on the other side.

"What do you mean, Fords aren't the best cars?! It says so right here on this Ford advertisement!"

[mzmolly]

112. FYI - it's now fact.

Obama just cleared this up at GMU.

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/8040.pdf

[Raineyb]

126. No it's NOT a fact. Even the White House isn't trying to push that bullshit. n/t

[mzmolly]

128. "Starting this year Americans with pre-existing conditions will be able to purchase health ins."

President Obama speaking today at GWU. Yes, it's fact.

[Raineyb]

151. Insurance companies can discriminate against those with preexisting conditions until

2014. THAT is what the bill says. I don't give a fuck what the salespeople say.

[mzmolly]

158. Which must be why the bill sets up a Governement structured plan

for those with such conditions.

[pattmarty]

91. Well thank you very much. It may be as you say a "fact", but in the............

..............language you posted it does not say how, how much, co-pays, deductibles or how to get covered. So as I read it "access" doesn't say or mean shit.

[humbled_opinion]

131. With no public option what is the COST???

Having access and how much it will cost people are two completely different things. Does it say pre-existing conditions will not be treated any different then health people NO...but what your lying eyes forgot to mention is that EVERYONE will be required to purchase from Health Insurance companies right from day one oh Under Penalty of law...

I hope someone attacks this as unconstitutional whoever heard of the government forcing me to buy something from an insurance corporation, even If I don't want to put the money out for it!

Good luck convincing those young folks that this is in their best self interest.

Hopefully it gets tied up in the SCOTUS and gets ruled unconstitutional then comes back and gets a Single payer system.

[defendandprotect]

207. Agree . . . and the attempts to fool the public go on and on . ..

MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition


Btw, we are paying PER PERSON what the Swiss pay for their luxurious health care system --

but we don't get the care!!

They do!

[humbled_opinion]

237. Say it again, say it again

People just don't get it e.g, what is going to stop doctors from dropping medicare and medicaid patients? Nothing, our system in this country is based upon greed and that takes a much stronger approach then just caving in to the same greed creating systems i.e., insurance industry as obama seems to have done.

There are problems at the core that this legislation is not addressing and unless they are addressed these "FIXES" that democrats are proposing just won't work and when they fail and they will Repukes will be right there with the pitchforks and torches ready to remind all Americans that they told us so.

Kill the Bill

[defendandprotect]

251. Agree with your analysis and how it will effect Medicare/Medicaid . . .

Capitalism is what should be going down --

It's a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system based on exploitation ---

And capitalism isn't about competition . . . it's about killing the competition.

Unregulated capitalism -- as the health care industry is -- is merely organized crime.

Rather it looks to me like this is now the Corporate-Democrats moving aheadwith a GOP

agenda --

and the intent obviously is to destroy whatever is left of the Dem Party --


Sadly, I think it was over long before Obama, but he's certainly put the complete finish

to it --

In fact, why are we even bothering to elect a Congress when we have Obama/Cheney making

private deals with corporations?

Guaranteeing the "for profit" HCI that there would be "no government run program" -- !!!


Sigh . . . totally disgusted --

I wasn't really expecting much - I'm not naive -- but I was naive about how low

Obama would go!!

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. And the coverage that begins after that will cost more than the average

individual can afford.

I have gone from having a decent health plan through my husband's employer, to a COBRA plan upon his death that I was lucky to afford (all in the name of keeping coverage for a pre-existing condition that I maintained), to attempting to purchase a cheaper alternative. Only to be dumped by my insurance company, get turned down by dozens of other insurance providers (pre existing condition, you know even though it's been under control for years with no hospitalizations), onward to looking into Texas' "high risk" pool (yes ma'am we can do that for $900/month) to tripling my life insurance to provide for my little boy in the case that he becomes an orphan. Yes, this is wonderful.

[ibegurpard]

49. OMG how many thousands of people are going to die and be on YOUR conscience Gibbs?

or something...

[defendandprotect]

252. Estimate by Harvard Medical Research is: 180,000 will die in the GAP to 2014...

[glinda]

53. I am so sick of this crap in this Country I could scream.

[defendandprotect]

208. There's still 2010 and 2012 . . . MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition


But, I'll say this right now, I won't be voting for Obama --

and we had best begin to toss the DLC out of the Democratic Party --

Unless we liberals/progressives like being abused?

[Bluebear]

56. kick

[autorank]

59. The blowback from the scamming on this bill will ruin the party

I've never seen s dumber crew in charge, with the exception of the last crew who were also monsters. The best opportunity to turn things around for the country is blown by these assholes.

Thanks for posting. k*r I knew this when I read it and wrote about it. Some listened, others jumped on the fake public option like it was some fucking sacred cow. Folks, the public option in the legislation fro the house covered 6 million people. They're ruining the country and letting the monsters have a shot at getting back in to finish the job once and for all.

[Bluebear]

62. you said it brother.

[EFerrari]

65. The last time I was this pissed it was when no one would stand up

with the CBC for Gore.

[upi402]

70. Congressional Black Caucus was squelched

Their constituents were effectively disenfranchised -they were unrepresented. Obama is not even investigating. We gave the 'other' Republican Party power for nothing.

The Rethugs were spraying the crimes like a firehose. We gave the "Dems" power and they can't pour piss from a boot when the instructions are written on the heel.

[defendandprotect]

210. And we have these "Corporate-Democrats" ignoring need to get rid of Computers. . .!!!

[Lilith Velkor]

67. Letting them?

Or was this the plan all along?

[autorank]

78. by design

Failure by Design - The Public Option
http://dailycensored.com/2009/11/01/failure-by-design-the-public-option/

Three degrees of separation on the political spectrum.
Managed debate.
Managed opposition.

Had to happen.

[defendandprotect]

212. As far as Obama's "deals" long ago with insurance companies...it's been the plan!!

MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[defendandprotect]

209. That's the point of DLC corporate destruction of the party ...dismantling it --

And, let me add . . . "the fish stinks from the head down" --

MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[humbled_opinion]

240. +1

You nailed it.

[depakid]

75. Yet another thing people are just going to LOVE about the legislation!

If you wanted to INSULT and belittle millions of people- and show the world that you're in the pockets of the ever popular health insurance companies, this would be the way to do it!

[Bluebear]

77. You said it

[pecwae]

82. The thing is

that I doubt most of the supporters of this travesty who aren't in political chatrooms frequently even have a clue what they're in for. It's like the salad days during the election when people were actually being quoted in the media and filmed for TV stating that with Obama they'd have all their bills paid, health care, money in the bank, what have you.

But, we won. Maybe we can eat that later when the insurance companies have squeezed us dry.

[defendandprotect]

213. Purposeful demoralizing of those who support the former ideals of the Democratic Party!!

[Proud Liberal Dem]

79. If they could get this implemented earlier

Are some people here truly so cynical that they believe that they wouldn't? :banghead:

[Political Heretic]

80. Let Them Eat Cake.

[pattmarty]

86. What the Dems have succeeded in doing with this bill is putting.................

................their "name" on what most would consider a Republican type bill. In the past the Dems were associated with great pieces of Social legislation such as SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Civil rights act and the voting rights act. Now they will be associated with what is essentially a Republican bill that stinks and will only get worse. This may in fact ending up being "Rove's dream" of the 50 year Republican hold on the country. That last statement may be a little "out there", but we should know by 2016. By then this POS will be in "full swing" and all will see exactly how bad this piece of shit is. I really hope I am wrong, but I don't think so.

[defendandprotect]

215. Exactly what Howard Dean said: "It's not HC Reform" . .."It's a Romney-type plan" . . .

Thanks Obama!!!

[berni_mccoy]

88. This is the height of hyperbole here. So the largest expenditure on the poor and sick

in the history of the US is a betrayal? People with PEC can get immediate help with this bill by using the High-Risk Pool that the bill establishes. In essence, a PO for the sick until 2014.

[nightrain]

93. It's not the largest expenditure on the poor and sick. It's a huge transfer

of wealth from THE PEOPLE to private corporations. That subsidies are needed is evidence that the premiums cost too much (that people can't afford the policies). The cost of these premiums is absolutely outrageously expensive, not to mention the high deductibles and copays. That is how the private corporations take OUR MONEY!

There is little actual benefit of a "high risk pool" if the costs associated with it are prohibitive, so that people can't get services.

Compare costs in the US with Canada, Taiwan, European countries etc who are able to provide universal comprehensive coverage at 30-70% less cost.

Do you have 5-11K sitting about to give to the corporations even before deductibles and copays are factored in? No. I didn't think so.

The private insurance's 30% "overhead" is devastating to the incomes of regular people. The insurance corporations add no value, provide not one well-baby exam, or one RN home visit, or one immunization, or one psychotherapy session. And this is what we're building on???

Berni, get your head out of the sand.

[defendandprotect]

216. Keep in mind that PER PERSON we pay what the Swiss pay for their luxurious . . .

health care system . . . but we DO NOT GET THE CARE!!!

Same with this business of forcing people into buying these "junk" insurance

policies -- you don't get the necessary care!!

MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[liberation]

118. I don't think that "hyperbole" means what you want it to mean...

... furthermore right now, we spend more on health care than any other society in the history of man kind. Applying the same "logic" as the one displayed in your post, people should not be complaining about our current system. Since spending mucho bucks = good health care system. Non?

[defendandprotect]

218. These people are going to be forced to buy "junk" insurance .. .

and this is all in the hands of the very insurance companies and big pharma which

have created this disgraceful/corrupt system!!!

MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[muffin1]

92. K&R

Disgusting.:puke:

How many more will die because of this? Nearly half a million? Not to mention, of course, that they will find many more ways to screw us in the next four years, just like the credit card companies did.

[HughMoran]

99. Unrec - anybody who doesn't know this is a moron

Apparently there are at least 62 morons who didn't know this.

Figures - I've been saying all along that the bashers don't know jack about this bill. Proven correct...

[Skittles]

111. that's your defense?

[Forkboy]

115. It would be funny if wasn't so pathetic.

[grantcart]

217. Whats your defense for not reading the bill?

This has been in the bill for months.

It has been discussed here for months

It is the reason that the high risk pool was added.

If you are unaware of this you are also unaware of OPM, the Exchanges, the Subsidies, etc etc.

All of the people that are most angry about this bill are the ones that are the least informed about it.

Detailed explanation upthread.

[Skittles]

269. I have read the bill

it's OK to recommend FOR OTHERS WHO ARE UNWARE

[Forkboy]

117. Where would DU be without your grand knowledge?

Besides better off, that is?

[Raineyb]

129. And yet when people make the argument that people with preexisting conditions

will not be covered for four years people have had the nerve to tell them to stop lying. Someone just made the claim on this thread.

[AllyCat]

103. Well, you must be anti-Obama and want the Republicans to win to be posting this

This has been "known" or suspected for a long time but the pro-HCR/pro-Obama at any cost crowd attack, attack, attack for saying things like this.

Amazing how this Congress is going to throw us all to the wolves. At least my kids will be protected. I think.

Thanks for posting this seafan.

[gulfcoastliberal]

138. Just wait till Obama's panel gets its claws around social security & medicare.

The wolves are just getting warmed up...

[AllyCat]

149. I never expected it would be the DEMS that would smoke the working class

Education is my other bugaboo.

[gulfcoastliberal]

162. Isn't it outrageous how Obama is all for privatizing public education?! Sadly the DLC has succeeded

in its quest to destroy the core values of the democratic party. The values that actually made a real difference in public policy & gov't spending. Now the dems are just as anti-labor, anti-choice, etc. as the repukes. We effectively have a one party state with 2 factions that now really don't differ significantly.

Silly me, sometimes I forget that it has always been this way - historian & elite insider Carroll Quigley said as much in his book Tragedy & Hope, the money quote being: "The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers... ...Instead, the two parties should be almost identical so that the American people can 'throw the rascals out' at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy." - Carroll Quigley Tragedy & Hope, p. 1247

I'm going to post a video that has this & other Quigley info in the video forum. Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRkCvubUGCM

[defendandprotect]

221. DLC-corporate wing has taken over the party . . .could it be more obvious?

There's nothing here to salvage --

My quesiton is why is this still big "D" Democratic Underground . . .

Should be small "d" democratic underground ...

and we have a lot to discuss in that regard as the Dem Party has shoved the LEFT out -- !!!

MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[defendandprotect]

253. Well, it's been discussed and I've suspected, but never thought Obama would go this low!!

[defendandprotect]

220. True . . . Obama makes clear the LEFT is OUT . . . that's women's issues ...

union issues . . . New Deal issues like reinstating regualtions on corporations --

banks -- Glass Steagall -- Fairness in Broadcasting -- New Deal Social Security guarantees --

Medicare --

Folks better wake up!!!

MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[4gabriella]

249. Yes, gulfcoastliberal, the wolves are primed to gorge

First Reagan cut taxes on the wealthy and raised Social Security taxes on the working class. Hey, don't worry, DC will save your money for your retirement. Then DC spends the surplus on more tax cuts for the wealthy, wars, funding the banksters and Wall St. When workers are ready to retire, well, sorry we just cannot afford it.

Only a Democratic president could serve up millions of new customers to the insurance profiteers. And only a Democratic president will succeed with slicing and dicing the federal "entitlement" programs.

And the feast of the rich continues.


How the Democrats might privatize and cut Social Security
http://mlyon01.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/how-the-democrats-might-privatize-and-cut-social-security/
Obama Cuts Deal To Reduce Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid
http://unsilentgeneration.com/2010/01/20/obama-cuts-deal-that-will-reduce-social-securitymedicare-and-all-entitlements/
Looting Social Security
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090302/greider/print

[mzmolly]

107. "Starting this year Americans with pre-existing conditions will be able to purchase health ins."

President Barack Obama ~ March 19, 2010.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

134. yes they'll purchase but still be excluded till 2014

so they get to pay premiums, probably will have to pay premiums but same as now, they won't be covered.

And before you try to attack me as being like Rush Limbaugh, I will advise that:

Many good democrats have a different opinion from you but don't deserve to be compared to Rush Limbaugh.

I've been posting here for years, and I even canvassed for Obama in my state during the primary.

Attack the facts, not the person.

[mzmolly]

143. Wrong.

They'll be covered by an interim government plan. A sort of public option if you will.

Regarding so called personal attacks, I'll extend you some cred on your concern when you share the same admonition with those calling me a corporate shill.

[Lorien]

157. Guess not. nt

[kenny blankenship]

109. This is the "Get Out Of Dodge" clause

Good for politicians. Good for insurance and pharma syndicates.
Good for you?

5 years from now, you'll be swinging around wildly like a door off its hinge, searching for the parties responsible. "Where is he!? I'll fix him!" And the replacement goons will all say "But he's not here!"

[ipaint]

122. Well then he must be lying

because all the folks here who have read and analyzed all 2700 pages accused Moore of lying when he said the same thing. :sarcasm:

[humbled_opinion]

124. Sorry but with all the problems in this bill

Democrats are going to pay a huge political price. Republicans will get control of both houses and the Presidency and guess what they will take what they like Corporate enslavement in the HCR and destroy what they don't covering pre-existing, abortion etc.

Then they will continue to blame the Democrats for how fouled up everything is and the sheep will keep on following.

Democrats are fools to think this is a win.

What should have been done is everything starts now. Single payer if that lost then it lost but I hugely doubt that it would have and in the end it would have been worth all the political wrangling and hassle that this piece of crap, simply is not.

Kill the Bill

[defendandprotect]

222. Think we need to change the name of this website ...

to small "d" democratic underground . . . ???



MOBILIZE . . .

http://www.singlepayer.org /

http://www.freespeech.org /

Upper left/Petition

[WinkyDink]

130. Oh, this Bill will be historic, all right. But not in any good ways for the Democrats, incl. Obama.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

133. Insurance companies got nearly everything they wanted

and More!

[seafan]

135. More hanky-panky with the excise tax on employer-based insurance

Link

[kiva]

137. It is a betrayal of adults with pre-existing conditions,

and of children who may lose those parents. It is a betrayal of anyone who is pro-choice. It is a betrayal of anyone who supported Obama in the primaries because he said mandates were not a part of his plan. It is a betrayal of anyone who thought we had the political power, by Democratic control of Congress and the presidency, to provide health care to all Americans.

Gibbs should be ashamed to have to say this, but I guess all Press Secretaries have have shame surgically removed so they can do their jobs more effectively.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krabigirl]

140. This bill is so unbelievably fascist in nature..I can't believe people support it.

MANDATING people buy something from a corporate entity, but then adults with pre-existing conditions (ie people who actually need health care) can't be insured. Yuck, just horrible.

[KamaAina]

141. Great. So now the health care lobby has four years to gut it

one dark, moonless night, in front of an empty chamber. (drone drone drone) "The rule is agreed to as written..." (gavel bangs)

[seafan]

142. Again, our ideals are sacrificed.

Now, we can fix this in a way that is sensible, that is centrist. I have rejected a whole bunch of provisions that the left wanted that are — you know, they were very adamant about because I thought it would be too disruptive to the system. ----President Barack Obama, March 17, 2010

In the past week it has become clear that the vote on the final health care bill will be very close. I take this vote with the utmost seriousness. I am quite aware of the historic fight that has lasted the better part of the last century to bring America in line with other modern democracies in providing single payer health care. I have seen the political pressure and the financial pressure being asserted to prevent a minimal recognition of this right, even within the context of a system dominated by private insurance companies.

I know I have to make a decision, not on the bill as I would like to see it, but the bill as it is. My criticisms of the legislation have been well reported. I do not retract them. I incorporate them in this statement. They still stand as legitimate and cautionary. I still have doubts about the bill. I do not think it is a first step toward anything I have supported in the past. This is not the bill I wanted to support, even as I continue efforts until the last minute to modify the bill.

However after careful discussions with the President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, Elizabeth my wife and close friends, I have decided to cast a vote in favor of the legislation. ----US Representative Dennis Kucinich, March 17, 2010

“Given the very delicate situation at this time and the challenge facing Speaker Pelosi as she rounds up votes, Bernie and other senators have concluded that offering a public option amendment now could undermine the entire process.” ---Will Wiquist, spokesman for US Senator Bernie Sanders, March 19, 2010

And, once again, the people have lost.

[mzmolly]

144. Aren't you going to correct the misinfo you posted seafan?

The myth about the four year wait has been refuted.

[icee]

150. I just watched a utube by Rachel Maddow where she said and

wrote on a whiteboard the same thing.

[mzmolly]

155. Clarification came today.

:hi:

[icee]

159. I'll look for it.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

161. Here you are my friend. See #12 specifically.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=229911&mesg_id=229911

[icee]

163. Thank you.

[defendandprotect]

255. Pre-existing condition scam will be ended for Children . . .Adults four years from now!!

[defendandprotect]

254. +1000% . . .

[AngryOldDem]

146. You're just now finding out about this?

They've always been upfront that the major changes (except for the pre-existing condition clause for kids) would take at least four years to implement. That was why, the other day, that Michael Moore said that this bill would most likely not help the woman with leukemia who Obama conveniently used in Cleveland to further ram this monstrosity down our throats.

When will people see that this is just "same shit, different day," especially as it concerns insurance companies? What will prevent insurance companies from jacking up premiums for pre-existing conditions once this goes into effect? Doesn't anyone have a problem with this "market" bullshit that will funnel noninsureds (who will be fined if they don't get some kind of coverage) to said companies? Talk about a ready-made market -- hell, talk about collusion.

Glad to see at least one person is waking up to this. I guess all that matters is just passing a bill, doing something that's never been done before. To hell with doing the right thing by the American people. I predict that in a decade we will be worse off under this bill, and people (as usual) will be scratching their asses and wondering what happened.

ON EDIT: I also take with a HUGE grain of salt the estimate that this will come way under budget, and will actually save money over the long run. Yeah...ri-g-g-g-ght. It's all just too convenient.

[icee]

148. It is beyond anything I have ever seen. This the kind of stuff you

expect to see in Iran or Pakistan, but not here.

[ProSense]

156. The reconciliation bill ban goes into effect in six months

ENDS RESCISSIONS—Bans insurance companies from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Effective 6 months after enactment.

more

[defendandprotect]

256. Granted, they will not longer be able to be completely dropped .. which is nice...

but they still have to be able to afford the costs of the insurance --

[Stinky The Clown]

164. Dear America ......

Bend over and spread 'em.

[quiet.american]

167. Dupe. Wrong place. nt

[quiet.american]

168. It's this kind of screaming misinformation on DU that still has me shaking my head.

(Although, to be fair, if this is the extent of Gibbs' response, he did a PISS POOR job.)

The OTHER PART OF THIS that seems impossible for some to understand, is that 90 days after the bill is enacted, a government-subsidized HIGH RISK POOL will be created for adults with pre-existing conditions so that they will be covered until 2014, when their coverage will be transitioned over to the Exchange.

The difference between "children" and "adults" is that children will not need a high risk pool, because they will not be denied insurance due to pre-existing conditions. Adults need the high risk pool, because the law regarding pre-existing conditions doesn't start for them until 2014.

Children will have coverage through insurance companies
Adults will have coverage through the high risk pool

Here it is in writing:
http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/IMMEDIATE_PROVISIONS.pdf

Children, no discrimination because of pre-existing conditions: Page 1, Item 6
High risk pool, no mention of children or that it's limited to children: Page 2, Item 12

You can see that they have different implementation timelines, and therefore they are indeed two separate items in the bill.

If you need further proof, go to C-Span and listen to the first item Obama listed as an immediate benefit at his rally today.

Finally, if this is the extent of Gibbs' comments today, for what it's worth, his response gets an "F" from me.

[Stinky The Clown]

170. Have you ever looked into high risk pool car insurance?

[quiet.american]

173. What I know is that there's $5 billion set aside for gov't subsidies for the risk pool

And that amount can be adjusted as needed as I understand it.

Pre-bill, state-sponsored high risk pool insurance probably looks a lot different than post-bill, federally-subsidized high risk pool insurance.

But the point remains, there will be insurance coverage available for those with pre-existing conditions, not limited to children, starting this year.

[Stinky The Clown]

177. Yeah, all you have to do is pay for it.

I pay TWENTY NINE FUCKING THOUSAND DOLLARS A FUCKING YEAR and I can't change cuz my wife and I both have preexisitng conditions.

We're fucked.

My unsurance is slated to increase another few tens of percents this coming April - as it has every april since I have had it.

And five billion ain't jack shit to cover people with prexisting conditions.

To the unsurance MOTHERFUCKERS, a preexisting condition is hang nail.

Here's the bottom line: Things will be AT MOST marginally better for some at the margins, but the rest of us, no matter our personal situation, remain as fucked going forward as we were looking back.

[quiet.american]

194. All I can say is, I hope you don't block yourself out of help that may be there for you.

-- because you've convinced yourself there is none, and are not even interested in seeing if there just might be.

[Stinky The Clown]

219. ...

[defendandprotect]

259. $29,000 a year--!! And Obama is making private deals with insurance companies--!!!

Why the hell do we even bother electing a Congress?

Obama/Cheney -- insurance/energy

Same thing!

[nightrain]

245. that's 5 billion to private disease management corporations! What an incredible rip-off!

Doesn't something about that just f***ing stink?

It's an admission that the premiums are too high and people can't afford them! So, rather than rein in the premiums, or just get rid of the disease management corporations, we're about to transfer 5B to them. Here you have what Kucinich describes as building on sand. It's a terrible policy to force people to buy a private corporations product and to subsidize it.

[defendandprotect]

258. These subsidies end up in the pockets of insurance companies...!!

Why are we subsidizing insurance companies?

Why are we branding people "high risk" and "poor" and moving to INCOME TESTING?

Except to carry out more of the GOP agenda!

There will be temporary "high risk pools" --

however, the info says adults will be four years on --

[defendandprotect]

260. That's $5 billion of taxpayer money going to insurance companies . . .

MEDICARE FOR ALL --

so they can buy "junk" insurance -- and get nothing back!!

Great plan for the insurance companies!

[Bluebear]

265. exactly

[Mass]

172. It has been known for months. Nothing new. It is in every single bill that was voted.

I dont like it, but there is nothing new or hidden. Even the MSM reported it.

[Bluebear]

174. Actually people are still not clear about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7957436

[Mass]

175. It is very clear. People will be able to buy in high-pool risks that

will be created in a couple months, but for 4 years, insurance companies can refuse preexisting conditions.

It was in the State of the Union. It was in the speech in September about healthcare, and it has been debated again and again. There may be conditions in the bill that will come as a surprise. This one is not for anybody who cared enough to get informed.

There is nothing hidden. Certainly, they try to spin it the best they can, and I think they should have gotten rid of it from day 1, but this is a question that has been so debated that the complaint of the OP implying it was somehow hidden is stupid.

[Bluebear]

197. 'People will be able to buy in high-pool risks' - that highpool sounds expensive!

[elleng]

176. Its NOT so simple, OR so bad, as Dr. Dean has explained.

[Clear Blue Sky]

181. Much of this bill doesn't get implemented for 4-6 years, or longer.

[bvar22]

187. The "Bait & Switch Con" enters the final phase.

For the "Bait & Switch Con" to work properly,
it is necessary to keep "The Mark" confused.

"Obama & The Centrists" have performed this masterfully.


The ONLY people who have been consistent over the last year is the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.

[grantcart]

214. All this proves is that all of the people who are now expressing disappointment

or surprise at this never bothered to read the bill.


This has been openly discussed hundreds of times.


Why else did you think that they added the "high risk pool" for immediate effect.


Now the reason tha it has to be phased in is because once all of the companies are prohibited by law from using pre-existing conditions their entire actuarial archetecture has to be completely reworked, it is a revolution in cost/premium for the insurance industry.

President Obama is ending this practice in America in 4 years, it probably could have been done in 3 but to reconsider 250 million insured people would probably take more than1-2 years.

President Obama's legislation stops the practice in 4 years, while the alternative is not ending the practice.

As Skinner pointed out in another thread (paraphrasing) you are in favor of the proposal but your objection is now the delay in getting all of the benefits?

[OhioChick]

223. Nice.....But when they all vote themselves a raise, it's instant. n/t

[SandWalker1984]

224. NEWSFLASH: Deem & pass still planned AND don't have 51 votes in Senate for Reconcillation

I just saw Rep Chris Van Hollen, Dem from Maryland, on CNN in an interview.

Van Hollen admitted to 2 things that are VERY IMPORTANT to know:

1) The House plans to use "deem and pass" on Sunday instead of an up or down vote in passing the Senate HCR bill. They don't have the guts to vote for this garbage bill in the sunshine.

2) Van Hollen admitted to Blitzer that they do not have a guaranteed 51 votes in the Senate to pass a reconcillation bill.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE VOTES OR A GUARANTEE THAT A RECONCILLATION BILL WILL BE PASSED if they "deem and pass" the Senate bill.

If the House passes this without a Senate guarantee of votes, then WHAT YOU SEE IN THE SENATE BILL IS WHAT YOU WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH.


The Senate bill already has had stripped out of it all of the important reasons for health care reform in the 1st place:

1) They gave up single-payer before the debate even started, then even a weak public option.

2) They gave up anti-trust legislation.

3) They gave up regulation of the premiums thru a Rate Authority or Review Board.

4) Pre-existing coverage, admitted by Gibbs, won't kick in for 4 to 6 years and insurance companies can charge whatever they want for premiums.

5) They gave up drug price negotiations and re-importation of affordable drugs from Canada and Europe.

6) The insurance exchanges will be state exchanges, not national, so negotiating power with the insurance corporations will be limited.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of what was left out, negotiated away or sold to the highest bidder (lobbyists).


How anyone can celebrate THIS as a health care reform victory, is beyond me.

[colsohlibgal]

225. The Price Of Caving For Progressives

If liberals go along with this bill, and so many have, is that a victory for Rahm Emmanual who in nasty terms dismissed us? Will we continue being taken for granted?

There is just so much of this bill which is unadulterated crap, it's a tough pill to swallow. Like how come some of the "good stuff" doesn't begin for 4-7 years? So really, if this passes Sunday, we have to ramp up the heat to improve it starting Monday.

I'm still steaming mad at Obama for his comment that he rejected the left's ideas and went centrist, and he said that was sensible. So it's clear to draw from that, it's not a big leap, that he feels about us as his buddy Rahm does.

Grayson in 2012, I'll say it, we need a democratic standard bearer like that. A 21st century Harry Truman who will call an SOB an SOB and we're lousy with SOB's now in DC. We need a real Liberal! Sadly Obama has now proven beyond a doubt he is no liberal.

[Shining Jack]

227. K&R

I wonder how many other "little surprises" like this there are. :(

[Ed76638]

228. fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail

fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail fail

[Deep13]

231. Also, fail.

[defendandprotect]

262. Right . . . except we'll hear about the "WIN" no matter how crappy the bill is . ..

Evidently from what Kucinich is saying, he was stressing how important it was

to keep Obama's presidency from being "delegitimized" . . .!!!!

See the Amy Goodman/Democracy Now! interview I posted with Kucinich/Nader --


Has anyone else noticed that every time Obama is in danger of making a liberal

decision on some issue, the BIRTHERS come out again?

Coincidence?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7956532

[Bluebear]

263. idiotic.

[Deep13]

229. Frankly, this deal is looking worse by the hour.

If there's not even going to be a ban on preexisting conditions, in what way is this HCR?

[quiet.american]

236. Subsidized High risk pool. Coverage for adults with pre-existing conditions until 2014.

Government subsidized. ****NOT LIMITED TO CHILDREN***** FOR ADULTS

Link: Go to items 12 and 6 --
http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/SUMMARY.pdf

OP is utter misinformation.

AND TOTAL BULLSHIT.

[lumberjack_jeff]

238. Excluded for four years? Unacceptable! Defeat the bill! I want them excluded *forever*! n/t

[humbled_opinion]

241. Four Years From Now Sarah Palin will be President

and she will have the control to cure all of our social ills with her finger on the pulse of Healthcare and at the same time people are screaming about why they can't get medical care because of an STD or an unwanted pregnancy the Repukes will be reminding America that it was the Democrats that wanted it this way....


KILL THE BILL....

on to job creation.. the objective needs to be to live to fight another day not commit political suicide.

[BrklynLiberal]

242. hmmmm So how many will die due to lack of health care by then?????????

[quiet.american]

247. None. They will have coverage until then.

Essentially, they are on the Exchange before everyone else.

Immediate Benefits, Page 2, Item 12:
http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/IMMEDIATE_PROVISIONS.pdf

[Kip Humphrey]

244. 4 years??? I hope we don't die before then....

I've had 3 disks removed from my neck and am currently living on Hydrocodone and Naproxen as the next disk in line deteriorates. 2 years ago, my wife, who carried our health insurance through her city job, had to retire due to the advancement of her Crohn's Disease. Since then, We have been unable to acquire health insurance because of our pre-existing conditions. My wife's Crohn's disease is currently active and she is losing weight.


I hope we survive 4 years.

[stuart68]

248. ...and everyone is so surprised ?

why ?

[troubledamerican]

257. LOL

A mandate

AND an excise tax on union members. YAY! WE WON!

[upi402]

264. We were played and fileted

I can't understand it. Union members are letting it happen. And anti-choice zealots are holding it up when they already have what they want... no funding of abortion.
All hail the UniParty!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

272. will Uncle Sam GARNISH our wages if we don't buy health insurance?

I dont' think I plan to buy insurance. I WOULD pay for medicare though.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

274. So an improvement is delayed 4 years

If Republicans have their way, improvement will be delayed 40 years, or 400.

This is a much smaller victory than desired, but it's a victory.

At the very least, it pissed off the Republicans.

:hi:

[FrenchieCat]

275. They are put into a high risk pool, and the government will subsidize

them.....
and in four years, they can just get insurance like everyone else. That's the part being delayed.

But folks with Pre-existing conditions will be able to get coverage in the meantime, starting 6 months from the day the bill is signed, period.

The OP is misinforming people...because some folks seems to think everyone is stupid,
and no one will be able to tell when they stretch the truth. That's what Republicans do,
and yes, I've become surprised to see that some here at DU do it too.

Sad....cause we should be celebrating, but instead, folks are still whining,
cause that's all they know, so that's all they do.