So if the health bill fails, just how does that help the country?

[Kablooie]

So many here are against the health bill and want to see it fail just like the GOP.

I have the feeling that it still may not pass. We just don't know yet.

So if it fails, those of you who think this is the best outcome...

how will everyone's life be better with a failed bill than a successful one? I don't quite get it.

[ShortnFiery]

1. No, it's NOT "just like the GOP."

When we APPROVE of mandates and the predatory Insurance Cartel has even MORE BILLIONS to pour into the political FIX system, what are the odds that "Single Payer" has a snowball's chance in Hell of passing?

The ruling elites and those whom they have hood-winked and/or intimidated to support this bill will RUE the day they passed it.

In other words, the BAD (all those billions to the Insurance Cartel and Big Pharma without any mechanism for controlling premium costs) FAR OUTWEIGHS the short-term benefits.

However, don't blame us progressives because OUR LEGISLATORS rolled-over for your corporate democrats. They supported you for what they believed "the greater good."

Be prepared for the democratic party, as a whole, to be out of power for at least 4 to 8 years.

Thanks Corporate Democrats and Progressives with "feet of clay." :(

But THIS is the best we have ... there's no other party for us LIBERALS to go.

Again, when this situation BLOWS UP in your faces and we lose big in November, don't blame the LIBERALS who sounded the alarm while there was still a chance to pull back.

[Toots]

2. And when Democrats not only don't lose "big" in November but actually gain a few seats

What line of crap will you be feeding us then?

[ShortnFiery]

4. OMG! I'll come back and give a heartfelt mea culpa.

However, I've not been wrong for years, to include, the error of Gore not reaching out to the Green Party and liberals in 2000 as well as the MISTAKES of invading of both Iraq and Afghanistan.

No joke: I hope I'm wrong ... but I'm NOT. :(

[lamp_shade]

3. Easy, short, easy.

[ShortnFiery]

6. Yes, thanks.

I'm going up north to go to the Anti-war march tomorrow. Best to stay off of DU until this mess blows over. At least it won't be as contentious. :-) :hi:

FYI = IMO it's best to use Public Transportation to get to the heart of DC. Metro/Amtrak/Bus Service.

http://www.pephost.org/site/PageServer?pagename=M20_homepage

[pnwmom]

5. If we have mandates and insurance regulation, but costs continue to go up too fast,

or there are problems with the ban on preexisting conditions or recission, then it will prove that the public option/single payer people were right all along. Having taken all the steps that even Republicans have said should be taken (before they decided to oppose any health insurance reform) I think Congress would be much more likely to then look at other alternatives.

[ShortnFiery]

7. And you think that Congress will be "reachable" with all those campaign contributions from

the BILLIONS of dollars of Premium Mandates that the Insurance Cartel has "left over" to bribe them?

Amendments will be less-likely in years to come. However, the MANDATES and FINES will remain in place.

Who will the American People blame long term? . = you and I within "the democratic party."

[Kablooie]

15. I agree the thing is woefully inadequate and uncomfortably pandering.

But it still seems better than allowing the current unchecked freedom of insurance companies to screw over everyone with no controls whatsoever.

Not much better but still better.

It may never be fixed, but then again, perhaps it will. No one knows right now.

If it passes, at least there will exist something that *needs* fixing.

If it doesn't pass, the whole point is moot.

[mmonk]

8. Its structural flaws are too glaring to some of us.

It is our opinion. My opinion is in the long run, I don't see how it will help to pass it. It's putting off the real battle for real changes for another day. Does that mean I'm going to throw a fit if it passes? Well, that depends if they are going the course of pretending Medicare and its costs are the problem and begin privatizing it. That leaves us with no exit ramp.

[pampango]

9. Like EFCA, immigration reform, if we don't do it now we get to "start over" with more republicans

in congress than there are now. Some issues may not resurface at all or in a form we won't want to recognize as "reform", if the repubs pick up many seats.

We had better get busy with many issues (HCR, EFCA, immigration reform, financial reform, climate legislation) between now and November. Not only are the numbers more in our favor in Congress now than they will be (so we can get them passed), but it will show that the Democratic Party can govern when it has the White House and both houses of Congress, rather than letting republican obstructionism win the day. We're going to lose some seats whether people like this HCR or not, because of the economy (not Obama's fault but that won't matter much) and the fact that the president's party almost always loses seats in the off year elections.

[alc]

10. jobs

I don't think anyone can tell you what the results of this bill will be for a few years. Some people claim insurance rates will go down, but there's good reason to expect them to go up. As an employer do you want to hire more people for long term jobs before you know the costs? Or would you rather outsource the work? Is it better to provide coverage? Or pay the fines? Will my state opt-out of the mandates? For business as well as individuals? Can I relocate to one that does? How long until we know?

Also, I've also read that employer mandates trigger at 50 employees in the current bill. I've been in a job where we had the customers/revenue and we kept telling management that we NEED more help and kept being told that any additional employees would subject us to additional regulation (and it was true). It happened at a few points as the company grew (25, 50, and a 100 employees?) . We couldn't just add "workers" but needed the revenue to also add an HR person then an administrator and pay for some accounting firm to audit us and keep a lawyer on retainer and pay more for CPA work.

This bill could simplify HR (I haven't heard that but it's possible). But it could also add regulations and make things more complicated. Businesses will be afraid first and not act until they know what it means. This bill is such a huge mess that it will be a while before we know what it does.

[daa]

11. When this bill passes we will still have the shittiest

health delivery system in the industrialized world. We will still be 37th. Just because people are forced to buy insurance does NOT mean they can afford heath care. Canada doesn't buy insurance, they just go to the doctor when they are sick. The rest of the world focuses on prevention and we focus on perpetuating an insurance industry that scams 35% off the top and then pays Dr. Macguire (United Health) a billion and a half dollars for denying claims.

[Kablooie]

12. Agreed. But continuing the current free reign of the corporations is marginally worse.

[mdmc]

13. it doesn't help

what would really help is increase access to affordable medical treatment. Time alone will tell if this bill does anything like that.

[MadHound]

14. This bill isn't an improvement,

It will destroy the middle and working class through ever skyrocketing premiums.

Having this bill fail means that it will be an imperative for Congress and the President to actually come back with a bill that is an improvement, rather than simply claiming a win and moving one while our country crumbles.