Let Me See if I've Got This Straight

[last1standing]

If we voted for Obama we should have known that he'd do all these monstrous things and have no right to complain.

If we do complain we're depressing the vote and it'll be all our fault when the republicans take over - so we can't complain.

If we don't complain, and the republicans take over, it's all out fault for not saying anything at the time.

That's right, right?

:freak:

[leftstreet]

1. Sounds about right n/t

[ProSense]

2. The operative word is "if" n/t

[QC]

3. Yes, that's pretty much the shape of things. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. monstrous?

Hmm.

[ProSense]

5. "do all these monstrous things " Sounds RWish. n/t

[leftstreet]

21. Mandated, for-profit insurance premium payments - sounds RWish

[Edweird]

53. Mandated, for-profit insurance *IS* RW - to the core.

[DevonRex]

6. Monstrous? Have you lost your fucking mind? nt

[dionysus]

7. "monsterous"? what planet do you spend most of your time on?

[DevonRex]

9. I've got to go with Uranus.

:rofl:

[dionysus]

17. "i am doofdor, from the planet dipshitia"

[Cal Carpenter]

26. Well, let's see

If US forces blew up my family, for example, in Iraq or Afghanistan, I'd call it monstrous> i could probably come up with some domestic examples as well regarding health care (before and after 'reform), the war on drugs, etc, if you'd like :shrug:

What planet do you live on? Planet Abstraction where everything from health care to military occupation is so far removed from your concern that you can laugh about it?

[Ignis]

44. A planet where they can spell "monstrous," apparently.

How's the weather on yours?

[Jennicut]

8. Do what you want. Is anyone holding a gun to your head?

[dana_b]

10. it's always our fault

always.

[CBR]

11. Monstrous.... LOL

[county worker]

12. What if you complain and no one hears it, did you really complain?

What if you did something constructive about the situation, would it have more effect than a complaint?
You can complain all day long but it really doesn't change shit!

[Bobbie Jo]

13. Monstrous?

Good Lord. This is getting ridiculous.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WeekendWarrior]

16. If Obama is doing "monstrous" things

then what the hell was Bush doing?

Because from my chair, I'm seeing a helluva lot brighter picture than I was when the Republicans were in power. Some of things people say here just slay the fuck out of me.

[LWolf]

46. Then you are certainly not sitting

on the front lines of public education.

Or sending your child to Iraq.

I could go on. But on the most crucial issues?

Obama fails every one. In some cases, he continues Bush doctrine. In others, he escalates it and takes it to further extremes.

[goclark]

55. Really? " fails everyone " ~ thats a lie!

Open your eyes and see the real world.

[LWolf]

56. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7949484&mesg_id=7958588

[tallahasseedem]

18. Pretty much!

And most of us will continue to enjoy a Democratic administration!

[ProSense]

19. Congressman Grayson: Sunday Vote Will Be The "Triumph Of Hope Over Fear"

GRAYSON HIGHLIGHTS HEALTH REFORM PLAN

Sunday Vote Will Be The "Triumph Of Hope Over Fear"

March 19, 2010
Washington, DC

(WASHINGTON) – Today Congressman Alan Grayson (FL-8) announced new numbers, which show the people of Central Florida will see immediate and long-term benefits from the proposed health care reform.

Congressman Grayson said, “This is the greatest step toward accomplishing a good life for middle-class Americans that we’ve seen in a generation. The bill will provide virtually every American with universal, comprehensive, and affordable health coverage. It is truly the triumph of hope over fear.”

A new analysis by the House Energy and Commerce Committee concluded that hundreds of thousands of people here in Central Florida will obtain new or improved health insurance under the reform proposal. In Congressman Grayson’s district, the health care bill will:

• Improve existing insurance coverage for 465,000 people.
  
• Give tax credits and other assistance to up to 193,000 families and 20,100 small businesses to help them afford coverage.
  
• Improve Medicare for 108,000 beneficiaries, including closing the donut hole.
  
• Extend coverage to 108,000 uninsured people.
  
• Guarantee that 19,500 people with pre-existing conditions can obtain coverage.
  
• Protect 1,600 families from bankruptcy due to unaffordable health care costs.
  
• Allow 63,000 young adults to obtain coverage on their parents’ insurance plans.

You can read the analysis for the 800,000 people of our 8th Congressional District here.

The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office concludes that the reforms will cut the nation’s deficit by $138 billion over the next 10 years, and $1.2 trillion during the following decade.

Congressman Grayson continues to rally support for his Public Option Act. The bill, also known as the Medicare You Can Buy Into Act, opens up Medicare to anyone who can afford it. In only a week, Congressman Grayson already convinced 80 of his fellow Members of Congress to cosponsor H.R. 4789. Thousands of people have expressed support.

You can read more about the Public Option Act here.

It'll also be a triump over idiocy.

[Egnever]

20. One of my favorite lines from Spiderman

"He's some kind of wakadoo"

[dionysus]

22. rofl

[BurtWorm]

23. Who says that? You're absolutely free to do what you want to do.

If you want to make a self-pitying, grandstanding complaint about how people who disagree with you argue with you, go right ahead. Most people on this board agree with you about Obama, the Democrats and this bill. If you want them to stroke you, they will.

I hate to write a post like this to someone with a Dean avatar. It breaks my heart. I hope you'll forgive me.

I don't want to make this a personal thing. It shouldn't be. What kill-the-bill DUers should realize is that a lot of us who, like Dean and Kucinich and Sanders, want this bill to pass are not happy with it, not happy with the choice given Democrats, not happy with the way Democratic leaders failed dismally at their job, which was to give us real, hard-core health care finance reform. There's no reason for people who choose to stay ideologically principled on this to feel defensive or bad or attacked. It's people on the other side who are getting beaten up over this. We're being accused of being DLCers. So please, enjoy your choice to remain pure. No one is faulting you for it. (No one justifiably anyway.)

[walldude]

25. C'mon, you know as well as I do that the attacks are coming

from both sides. There's no reason for people who choose to stay ideologically principled on this to feel defensive or bad or attacked. You really believe that? Have you not been paying attention? "You just didn't get your pony" "You are making perfect the enemy of the good" "You are being selfish and ruining peoples lives" "They are going to fix it later" "You just hate Obama". People on the pro side attack just as much as people on the anti-side. If you can't admit that then there is no reason to even try to come to a consensus.

[BurtWorm]

31. Fuck anyone who can't take a joke.

On either side.

[walldude]

37. I'm sorry was that a joke?

Pardon me, where I come from jokes are usually funny :rofl:

[BurtWorm]

39. That was serious.

I'm talking about anyone who takes their position so seriously they have to denigrate the other side. This HCR issue is obscuring the fact that most of us completely agree that the health care financing system in this country is fucked up, that this bill won't fix the worst of it, that we need single payer or national health care or at the very least a public option that will force the private insurers--the blood suckers--to stop drawing so hard on our veins.

PS: But some of us want to stick to our guns (why not? it costs nothing) and others are willing to see if real reform can be built on top of the sham reform they're offering (and don't want to see Repubs gain political advantage from a Dem defeat).

[last1standing]

27. Who said this OP was about HCR?

I didn't say a word about that. The current HCR is extremely bad, right wing policy but it's not monstrous.

Monstrous is killing innocent people by the dozen in Afghanistan.

Monstrous is continuing to torture prisoners at black sites all over the globe.

Monstrous is submitting a record high military budget while telling the people there's no money for jobs.

Monstrous is allowing the Constitution to be raped by supporting the Military Commissions Act of 2005.

In other words, this is about Obama's record of supporting death over life and I call that monstrous.

If that makes me a purist, then so be it.



As for the rest of the OP, it's about exactly what's happening here. If you post something that is contrary to a certain segment's desires they jump on the thread and try to bully you into submission. No facts, just insults. It gets old and so I posted this.

[BurtWorm]

30. Well ok. I support your right to complain about that.

And I apologize for making the wrong assumption.

:toast:

[last1standing]

35. No worries.

DU has stopped being a discussion board and now just serves as a place to spout ideology. Each side represents little more than pure policy or politics. I lean toward the policy side but I miss the days when it could be discussed reasonably. That's the real point of most of my OPs.

[BurtWorm]

36. Amen to that.

It is difficult not to lose your temper or get emotional when discussing politics, even with allies. Every shade of difference gets exaggerated. It would be better for dicussion if we could all just try to take it as a given that we're all on the same side. Or almost all of us, anyway.

[TexasObserver]

24. I could have sworn he said in 2008 to hold him to his promises.

I could swear at DU in fall of 2008, posters were encouraged to hold their criticisms of Obama until after he won, then hold him to his promises. Then insist and demand he push a good agenda and good legislations. I was one of the posters TELLING others here to do just that.

Our job as citizens is to speak our minds about the issues of the day. The president has not come through for progressives, or teachers, or gays, or people who desperately need health care.

[last1standing]

28. I was right there with you.

Now I'm told I never supported him, I'm a purist, I was just a PUMA, I'm a racist, I don't like big ears, etc...

Maybe, just maybe, I don't agree with the policies. :shrug:

[Lorien]

40. Correction; you just don't agree with his CURRENT policies

Most of us were totally on board with CANDIDATE Obama's policies.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

57. I strongly supported him until 6 months into his term.

By last summer, I felt he was really dropping the ball on health care, and was allowing the GOP and the industry to completely frame the debate.

[notesdev]

29. Ha ha ha!

You took a politician at his word?

Naif!

[leftstreet]

32. Obama kept his promises! Got a dog, took Michelle on a date

Come on!

:hide:

[QC]

48. I just don't understand you people.

You got to see him with his shirt off. Isn't that enough for you?

[emilyg]

33. +1

[ProSense]

34. "known that he'd do all these monstrous things" How will

idiotic claims help to hold him to his promise?

[Lorien]

38. That's right, but when we insist that he do just that we're either Freepers

or, upon failing to force him to keep his promises it's our fault for not pushing him hard ENOUGH.

:crazy:

[Ignis]

45. "Stop! Or I'll say stop again!"

We can attempt to do so, but given that the Rahmites have effectively neutered the Left, what method of censure can we possibly hope to have any effect on this administration?

[treestar]

50. You're not going to get a further left President soon

so there is no point in undermining one who is not a fucking Republican

The Republicans own the media and 48% to 51% of the idiots in this country agree with them at any given time.

Please accept the fact you live in 2010 and not 2110.

[TexasObserver]

58. He could have been LBJ or FDR. He isn't.

[jtrockville]

41. I expected better from Obama in many areas.

He seemed pretty clearly to side with corporations vs "the people" even with his campaign rhetoric, but it was hard to know how much of what he said was so he could get elected vs what he really believes.

I was hoping that he would side with "the people" more often though.

And I still have hope that before the end of his 1st term we'll see US war criminals brought to justice. The rational side of me reminds the idealist in me how unlikely this is, but nonetheless, my hope remains.

[Newest Reality]

42. Hey!

The solution is to simply re-frame any disagreement or contention.

We DEBATE our concerns! ;) Debate is a healthy and sound aspect of a reasonable, free-thinking, productive and democratic process.

Of course, some debate carries a lot more weight, especially from the newly born, (after decades of gestation) corporate person-hood that vies with our tiny, impoverished platform in the body politic. It is hard to win when the money you put out for goods and services is turned on you by a ghost-in-the-machine.

[gmoney]

43. That's about the size of it...

[treestar]

49. Yes, though you are taking "monstrous" a little far

Live in reality. Living in fantasy land gets you nowhere.

There are Republicans in this country. Lots of them. They won't vaporize, and they have a vote.

We Democrats are very superior to them in that we do not march in lockstep. Our ideals are too pure to compromise. Thus we are never happy.

[last1standing]

52. Read post #27 to see what I find monstrous.

I don't think I'm going too far at all. You can disagree but I thank you for doing so respectfully. It makes a nice change. :hi:

[Edweird]

51. That pretty much sums it up.

[LaydeeBug]

54. I hate to say this part, because the primaries are over, but

about health care... there were many here trying to say so. We were shouted down by, "See? He wants a public option. It doesn't matter that his wife sat on the board of a hospital, blah, blah, blah". I stood proudly when the primaries were over, but to see him adopt MANDATES? After he stumped bitching about Hillary telling the truth about them? The anti-choice language, and honestly, to say, "It give millions of people health insurance who don't have it now" (by mandating they buy from a fascist corporation? Remember when he was standing on the stump saying, "They're going to make poor families, who can't afford it, buy coverage..." I do.

Ahhhh. I feel better after my vent. It just needed to come out of me. :)

[OffWithTheirHeads]

59. No silly! It's all Ralph Nader's fault.

Didn't you hear?

[spanone]

60. please explain 'monstrous things'

[AzDar]

61. K & R