So is it going to be fixed? Or is the fix in?

[walldude]

Please, if you can manage to be civil I am asking a serious question here. Obviously this HCR bill is going to pass. The optimists on DU are cheering while at the same time saying the bill sucks but it will be fixed. The pessimists are saying the bill sucks and it's not going to be fixed, actually we'll be lucky if it doesn't get worse.

Being a pessimist I would like to explain my position. I think this bill is a joke, it's as much a giveaway to insurance companies as it is a help to people. However if I was assured that the bill would be "fixed" then I would support voting for it. Of course I got those assurances about NAFTA and DADT, and I was assured that Guantanamo would be closed in a year. Meh.

My problem is I don't believe anyone has any intention of fixing anything. Rahm called the ideas from the left "fucking retarded" Obama went on FOX news, and said he got rid of those leftist ideas so he could make a "sensible centrist bill". He went on a news channel that has been calling him a socialist, a communist, Hitler, Mao, and the destroyer of America and tried to... make friends? Win support? What? What the fuck was he doing throwing the people who worked for him, donated to him, and voted for him under the bus to appear on a news channel that 20 minutes before was equating the HCR bill to 9/11?

So what I want to know is this, how can you be so optimistic? What is it that makes you think the bill is going to be fixed? Do you know something I don't? Has there been some hint that I missed? We have been told that our ideas are retarded, that centrist is sensible policy, and we have been assured in the past that bills will be fixed and they aren't. So can you tell me what it is that should give me hope for this? Or am I just supposed to stand behind the football one more time hoping it won't get pulled away?

[Edweird]

1. This is what Obama wants. There won't be any 'fixing'.

[walldude]

2. That is what I believe as well, however I would like to believe

that this isn't the case, that we have a prayer here and I want to know what it is I'm missing that could give me that perspective.

[opihimoimoi]

3. Its the Basics in play...TWEAKING will emerge later....evolving into whats best for Americans

[walldude]

6. That explains nothing. Nothing.

You are asking me to take on faith that the people who say my ideas are "fucking retarded" and that "centrist is sensible" are going to actually fix this bill. Sorry but I've been burned enough. I'm looking for reasons you think they are going to fix this. I provided reasons I think they won't, now I'm trying to get a feel for the other side without starting a flame war.

[Bluebear]

4. He is getting EXACTLY the bill that he wanted. nt

[county worker]

5. The status quo is worse

Attending a similar RAM event convinced Wendell Potter that the business practices of the insurance industry which he had spent his career in were performing a fundamental betrayal of its customers and our country. If we change nothing, we’ll still live in a world where the only option medical care for some is a fairground in Appalachia, and people are willing to sleep in their cars overnight because nothing else is affordable.

It’s fair to say that if the president and Congress get stopped here, they won’t have the stomach to attempt bold reform on this issue for the duration of his presidency. That’s what happened with Bill Clinton in the 1990s. So what happens if nothing is changed in the entirety of the Obama presidency?

This week, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation released a report by the nonpartisan Urban Institute entitled “Health Reform: The Cost of Failure.” (Before we start hearing about bias, let me just mention that Karen Ignagni of America’s Health Insurance Plans was also there to second the economic imperative for reform). Here’s their best estimates of what the future looks like 10 years from now:

Premium and out-of-pocket expenses for medical care going up at least 46 and as much as 68%. If your individual insurance plan costs you $411 per month now, imagine it at $700.


We hear a lot of whining about Medicare rates, and not enough about uncompensated care for hospitals – which the American Hospital Association pegged as $43 billion in 2008. This picture gets substantially worse. The early estimates for 2009 are already $62 billion. Urban Institute predicts a range of $107 to $141 billion by 2019. Yes, that’s per year. And yes, that means many hospitals will go under.


Why? We’re due for a dramatic increase of the uninsured. 53 million is the “best case” scenario. 68 million is the worst.

Here’s food for thought – we’re more or less maxed out for low-income Americans who are uninsured. The only way that number will increase is if state and federal governments start cutting Medicaid and SCHIP. That means most of this growth comes from the middle class: “The report makes clear that the biggest effects of not having health reform would be felt by families with moderate incomes, who have less access to public coverage. Under the model, the number of middle-income earners without insurance would increase sharply from 12.5 million in 2009 to as many as 18.2 million in 2019.”



http://healthcare.change.org/blog/view/what_happens_if_reform_fails

[walldude]

8. Again, that tells me nothing. I know the bill is going to pass

whether or not it's going to help or hurt we are going to have to see. What I want to know is why you think they will fix this, or is your position that this is a good bill?

[county worker]

13. No it is not a "good" bill. I would rather have single payer.

I have been a controller of a medical clinic and I now work for a county alcohol, drug and mental health services department.

This year our county budget for treating clients is 6 million in the hole. Most of our money comes from the Federal Government through Medicaid that is past through the state to us as Medi-Cal. Medi-Cal pays us 50% of our cost. The stimulus package adds on another 11.5% so we get 61.5% of our costs covered by Medi-Cal. We also get Medicare which pays us by formula which is less than our costs also. The rest of our funding comes from sales tax, vehicle license fees and from the general fund which comes from property taxes. Because of the economy tax revenues are down, thus our funding is down. Also the number of indigent that we serve is growing month to month.

Both at the clinic where I was controller and here at the county costs cannot be covered because patients have no means of paying for services with out insurance.

It is just common sense to understand that the current system will collapse for all but those who can afford to pay for care.

We can argue day and night about what should or should not be in the bill. But while you argue the system gets worse. People go untreated and die.


If we do not find a way to afford health care for all of us none of us will have care! It is just that simple! I really doubt that
we will let it get that bad.

Do you understand? Do you still want to spend all day whining that you are not getting your way? People are fucking dying right now while we type this shit!

[walldude]

28. You are talking to someone without insurance

going on 8 years. Me my wife and 3 children. One child with Autism and one with MD. I know the fucking score better than most. I don't spend all fucking day whining, I am asking the people who are assuring me that this is the "first step" what in god's fucking name makes them think that. And frankly the only answer has to be faith because I haven't seen any others. And I have no faith left. I'm not whining at all. I'm throwing in the towel.

[laughingliberal]

10. And that's exactly what we'll hear from the Message Discipline Team

when we start making efforts to improve this thing. "The status quo would have been worse! STFU!"

Have I any reason to believe we'll ever see any positive changes made if this thing passes?

[county worker]

14. Like I said in post #13. People are dying right now for lack of care because

the costs of treating them cannot be covered. We can sit here and dream up some utopian bill that is the perfect fix for all but that will never come to be.

We have to do something right now to fix what ever small part we can rather than doing nothing. Insurance companies will make a killing, people will be forced to buy insurance, taxes will go up on some people, and some other people will get care that saves their life.

We say that we care for people, yet we argue this bill in terms of as it applies to ourselves only. If you really care pass the fucking bill!

[laughingliberal]

15. and when many are still dying for lack of care cause they can't afford to access the care they are

supposed to have? What will you be advocating for then? Will we hear fewer people are dying and we can't expect utopia? Or will you be joining with the forces who try to reform the reform?

[county worker]

17. I want to save everyone. I can only do what is in front of me to do.

I don't want to do nothing so I do what I can for those I can. That's all any of us can do.

Statements like you make are not saving anyone.

[laughingliberal]

24. Not wanting to make assumptions but that does sound as if passing this bill

might be the end of it for you. I'm hoping I misinterpreted that.

[county worker]

33. Hell no it is not the end of it for me!

I signed on for the long haul. This is the first step in a long journey.

[Sebastian Doyle]

16. People are dying because of INSURANCE COMPANIES.

Some of them can't afford to buy it. Others can't afford to use what they have because of ridiculous deductibles or co-pays or what ever.

The INSURANCE COMPANIES are the problem, therefore they cannot be, and will NEVER be the solution.

[county worker]

18. So let everyone fucking person die until we get a good bill right?

What the hell good is your argument? You have to chose between what is there and nothing. Not what you would like to have and nothing.

Man it really gets to me that we can sit here and clamor for the perfect day in and day out. Perfect never happens! It isn't noble to do.

[Sebastian Doyle]

19. So you're saying it's an emergency? Fine, then let's treat it like a fucking emergency then.

Obama should sign an executive order immediately declaring insurance companies to be terrorist enemy combatants, throw the thieving fucking bastards in Gitmo, and expand Medicare into a national health system open to everyone.

Problem solved.

[county worker]

20. That would be nice but not realistic.

Each of us with our utopian dreams needs to rattle as many cages as is possible until we bring utopia into being! I know that isn't realistic either but it is a hell of a lot better then sitting here bemoaning this bill.
We are beautiful people, we have noble ideals. We need to find ways to make them happen and that takes work.

[Sebastian Doyle]

21. It's just as realistic as expecting the DLC to pass this piece of shit and then "fix it".

Their 20 year track record of deregulation, privatization, and corporate fellation says exactly the opposite.

[county worker]

32. The DLC is a boogieman. We are more powerful then the DLC.

[Sebastian Doyle]

35. Well, that's what I thought in 2008 when we defeated the DLC's "inevitable" nominee in the primaries

Look how well that worked out. :evilfrown:

[havocmom]

22. Yes, people are dying for lack of care. Some of them HAVE insurance

so I fail to see how more of the same is going to solve the problem.

Medical care is the biggest reason for bankruptcies. Of those, most HAVE insurance.

More of the same won't solve the problem

[laughingliberal]

7. Considering how hard the President worked to keep progressive policies out

I expect to see efforts to pass any improvements later thwarted in exactly the same way. And I expect all those who are screaming at us about needing to pass it and fix it later to be absent from the efforts to fix it.

I just responded to a post which reported Grayson is on Ed now saying there are no back room deals being made in return for votes. That was discouraging. I was hoping for some promises for progressives to work for improvement in return for their votes. Seems the back room deals are only for the wealthy corporate interests.

[thotzRthingz]

9. re: "So is it going to be fixed?" not a chance in hell...

If/when this abortion-of-a-hcr-bill actually gets signed into law... you will see people in CONGRESS dodging its effects for many years to come! There are far too many other PRESSING ISSUES (education, environment, energy, etc.) for them to want to spend any time trying to FIX or UNDO this abortion!

Give us a ROBUST PUBLIC OPTION NOW ... or kill the bill! Passing what is now on the table is NOT "health care reform" ... it is CORPORATE WELFARE for the health care industry FOR-PROFITS! If you think otherwise, you need to stop kidding yourselves!

[laughingliberal]

11. And all those who have been screaming at us here that it will be

will forget all about 'fixing' it.

The impetus to do anything else will be gone until people start experiencing the effects of the mandate. Those who raise issues will be told to STFU and pay their premiums and quit asking for a pony.

[havocmom]

23. Screen shots. Any of them who balk about fixing this mess after the fact...

needs to by strung up by screen shots of their own lies when it doesn't get fixed.

[laughingliberal]

25. That's an idea

I would feel a lot better about supporting this bill if I thought even half of those who tell me the bill will be improved are actually going to show up for that fight when it starts. In a lot of cases, I'm sure it's sincere. I'm equally sure there are just as many who see it as an expedient talking point to get the bill passed who will be too busy when the work to change it starts .

[CrispyQ]

12. I'm positive it will be fixed.

When the repubs are back in power, the mandates will stay & any reform that regulates the insurance industry will be written out. And you know what? The repubs will be able to do this without a 60 or even a 50 seat majority in the Senate.

[bvar22]

26. Sure its going to be Fixed...

Right after they "FIX" NAFTA & The Patriot Act.

.
.
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Pollyana LIVES!
.
.
Oh, to be a True Believer basking in the ignorant bliss of Blind Faith.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. "---Paul Wellstone

[laughingliberal]

27. +1 nt

[troubledamerican]

29. Democrats will never have an easier year than 2009 to make CHANGE

[bvar22]

30. A Once in a Generation opportunity for REAL "Change"....

...flushed down the Republican/Corporate Appeasement Toilet.
The reality is that it IS downhill from here.

Bill Maher nailed it tonight.
He said, "After this historic reform passes, Americans will be able to buy Health Insurance from Health Insurance Corporations!"

[tekisui]

34. That missed opportunity is what disappoints me the most.

[Ignis]

31. The latter.

People will be sure to answer your question with the false dichotomy that the current bill is better than nothing, but our (D) leaders have a lot to answer for regarding the year they ham-fistedly fumbled the presentation of this bill and their inability to tell people like Lieberman* and Stupak to STFU and get in line.

And how about that transparency, eh? What a crock. :thumbsdown: I'm disappointed in our leadership, to say the least.

* - Yes, I know he's no longer a Democrat, but we could have yanked his committee seats.