I think I've just lost a friend and perhaps my mind.

[Better Today]

So I have this friend in CA whom I've only met a couple of times but we talk on the phone very regularly.

He, like me, is older, has a small shop, and no business in over a year. He was preparing to close down in about a month. BUT, a fellow who used to be part of his customer base calls and boy does he ever have a deal. This fellow and another guy are planning to make a product and run all the transactions and assembly through my friend. So I'm thinking great!

Then he tells me the fellow is in China right now trying to find an appropriate manufacturer for the parts and pieces. So I push a little, why in China, why not here. . . if not CA then at least some other US state where wages are a bit lower. NOPE, they are dead set, thinking that to undercut the company with the original patent (which was allowed to lapse) by more than 50%, they have to have China's slave wages. So then I ask, why would you need to undercut them by that much, why not just 25% undercut or whatever. He goes off on a rage about how he doesn't give a crap about all this, all he cares about is staying in business at whatever it costs the unemployed Americans, tough shit, whatever it costs the slaves in China who will be making these parts and pieces, tough shit.

I've never that I can remember wanted a friend's venture to fail, but I'm really having those thoughts now, and lots of derogatory names are floating through my mind and attaching to thoughts about this directed at my friend, well I guess not friend anymore.

It's one thing to know this goes on, it's such a wholey different thing when you know someone perpetrating it for a business as small as his, with so many of his laid off workers still coming by his shop regularly asking if he's any closer to re-opening. And he's just the type that would be happy to discuss all this new excitement with them and end with "but we're doing it in China, so no, I won't be needing you anytime soon."

I'm so angry, but I'm also just so friggin' sad. Y'know, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, just isn't something I can do. I can no longer make decisions based only on a monetary gain, I don't think I ever did.

[nightrain]

1. yep. very very sad...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Desperation can make people do things that they might not

otherwise do...

I'm very sorry that you had to endure all that...

:hug:

[Warpy]

3. You know, everybody thinks like that these days

including the company you're going to undercut, the company that is already making the crap in China and selling it for jacked up first world prices in the US. Trust me, they've got a better deal over there than you could ever get and will undercut you and you'll be out of business in a month. Then their prices will go back up.

Besides, who do you "smart" guys think is going to buy that product if there are no damn jobs in the US any more?

That's called thinking it through and if you ever talk to him again (doubtful), you can bring it up.

[KittyWampus]

4. You say "small shop". Hello, there. I am a small business too.

The system is set up to benefit businesses that are large multi-national corporations.

It sounds like your friend's back is against the wall.

Do you watch your hard work flush down the drain or do you stand on principle?

I know what I'd like to think my response would be. Ideally. But you never know.

[Better Today]

15. He has other income from rentals and SS. So he personally isn't in

any type of desperation. Thereby, in my opinion, he has choices different than simply do or die.

[Cerridwen]

5. "It's just business, nothing personal"

Did he use that one?

I had a co-worker parrot that one when they raised the rent on their property because the family living there were "such slobs." Nothing personal, just business. They informed them of the rent increase just in time for Christmas.

A few months later, same co-worker started complaining they were going to "lose their view" because a large business was building in their neighborhood and it would "block their view" and "increase traffic." Wanna guess what my response was?

"It's just business."

[Better Today]

16. Worse, imo. He also told me about one of his laid off employees who is so

depressed that he hadn't left his abode (he called it a shack) in three months and is having medical issues besides. So what did my "friend" do? He went and rounded him out of his shack, and got him to come into work to help with garbage stuff since there is no actual business at the moment. I'm thinking, well that's really nice. . . when he finishes with, "but of course I'm not paying him anything, he's just grateful to have somewhere to go and something to do."

WTF!!!

[Cerridwen]

22. Wow. Um. Nope. Got no good words for that attitude.

Well, I do have words, but as noted, they ain't good ones.

[OneGrassRoot]

157. +1. Ugh. n/t

[tango-tee]

36. Cerridwen took the words out of my mouth.

I can think of words, but they are not good. What a piece of sorry-assed shit this person is. Blech.

[elehhhhna]

47. okay, BT, that is way over the line.

you write well. please consider writing a letter to your future-ex-friend in which you school him politely on exploitation. you'll be doing him a favor. a parting gift, if you like.

Extra credit if you can inspire enough guilt to cause him to rectify the above situation. He's horribly confused about when & whether he's giving or getting charity.

[whathehell]

116. Frankly, he sounds like an A1 Prick...I'd forget him.

[madmax]

120. The guy is a turd.

Could at least buy him lunch or make him something to eat. Dump that chump - he's not your caliber type of friend.

[NuttyFluffers]

160. that's not a friend, that's a sociopath. beware...

i'm saying this for your own good, as well as others you care about. sociopaths can be very charming, but you will know them by their works. abusing the depressed and needy for a buck... trickle down on them and call it rain.

you can rationalize it all you want, but he has already shown his colors. you should do the responsible thing and believe him when he tells you what he truly is.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

176. woa.... that punch line really felt like a punch

in the gut. Silly me to have been expecting something different....

wow! This person has really lost his humanity. He's no better than a .... well, I was gonna say 'animal', but since animals aren't mean for no reason like this, I'd have to qualify it.... he's no better than a mean, cornered animal.....

[mikita]

6. so sad

in many respects. I can understand both your anger AND sadness.

[Leftist Agitator]

7. Call his local media outlets and tell them what he's doing and what his philosophy is...

The rest will take care of itself.

Put this fucker out of business before he hurts anybody further than he already has.

[Catshrink]

8. I wonder if he realizes that if there are too many unemployed Americans

there won't be anyone to buy his now cheap Chinese-made crap? And what will he do when he gets hit with lawsuits for lead, cadmium, and other poisonous materials used in manufacturing? He won't be able to save his business then.

[Better Today]

17. No one from Obama on down seems to quite understand the wisdom of your comments.

[HeresyLives]

9. Most people are addicted to eating.

And they'll do whatever they can to keep doing so. Geopolitical concerns don't come into it.

[Better Today]

18. He's already collecting SS and has rentals, so he's not starving by any stretch.

[HeresyLives]

28. 'Not starving' isn't the same as suceeding.

[Better Today]

31. "Succeeding" the way he intends to isn't succeeding in my book.

That's my point. If you have to promote the enslave of individuals in two countries (here, by not hiring them, and in China by hiring their enslavers) then the success is based solely on money, with no regard for people at all.

[HeresyLives]

34. Well then you'll get brownie points in heaven.

However what he wants is a viable business here on earth.

[Better Today]

59. I don't believe in heaven, I'm a humanist, so it matters to me how decisions

effect the whole, not just myself, and not just him.

[HeresyLives]

61. Well then yer screwed.

Cuz you won't get rewarded in either place.

Don't humanists have a rule about not preaching to others?

[Better Today]

67. WTF! I may not win monetarily and my value system contains many

attributes that do not require money, therefore I am rewarded often and heartily. Just not with greenbacks. I'm sorry your world is so narrow and so cold and to have no value in it than money.

[HeresyLives]

68. Let him live his own life, and stop judging his morality.

Just like you're judging mine when you know nothing about me.

Pretty self-righteous and satisfied with yourself, arencha....

[Better Today]

70. NO! I'd rather see us all be judgmental about this sort of thing, maybe then

some of these things would be attended instead of swept under the rug.

[HeresyLives]

77. It's the judgmental part that gets fundies into trouble.

You're going down the same road..telling other people how to live.

[Better Today]

87. No trouble at all. Freedoms of the rich without regulations is what got us into this mess.

[HeresyLives]

89. No, they had nothing to do with it.

They just got caught swimming naked when the tide went out.

[Better Today]

96. You live in an alternative universe than I do, 'nuff said.

[HeresyLives]

98. True, I live in the real one.

[Confusious]

150. No, it's the fucking hypocrisy that gets them in trouble. n/t

[Chulanowa]

136. He can live his own life all he wants

It's the fact that he's exploiting others while doing it that makes him a real winner.

But hey! Who gives a damn about the bums and the slants, right, Hersey? They're not you so what the fuck do they count for?

I guess we can't all be Randian ultra-men on the internet like you.

[HeresyLives]

142. I'm sure he's grateful you approve.

Now...if only you could spell. Or even quote correctly.

[Confusious]

149. You don't seem to have morals

Slavery, even paid slavery, that is ruining the lives of millions of people, there and here, is OK?

I personally don't think it's judgmental to give a shit about you country and fellow citizens and their future.

It's better then giving acquiescence like you.

[HeresyLives]

187. Ooh another judgement of someone you don't know.

Not to mention all the hype about 'slavery'.

[Confusious]

201. From what I've read

I know enough.

[RaleighNCDUer]

110. There is a difference between viable and somewhat less profitable.

Even that fascist Henry Ford priced his vehicles so that the people who built them could afford to buy them. He understood that a customer base that can't afford your product is NOT a customer base. Accept slightly lower profits, and pay a living wage that supports the community you live in - otherwise, you're good for nothing but a guillotine.

[HeresyLives]

112. If you're in business you want to be profitable, not just

hanging on. Otherwise it's just a hobby.

Henry Ford died in 1947 along with his era.

And spare us the 'reign of terror' references from the 1700s.

[Confusious]

151. So you don't have a problem with

CEO's a corporations taking millions? They're just making a profit.

Nothing wrong with kicking people off the rolls by the health insurance companies, they're just making a profit.

Seems you think anything goes.

I get the impression you think War profiteers are just dandy businessmen, making a profit. Am I wrong?

[HeresyLives]

188. Hey, it's your system.

One you've promoted around the world.

[Confusious]

202. No, it's not my system

It's one I was handed, and think has flaws the size of the grand canyon. You wouldn't like the system I want.

You seem to defend it and it's worse excesses all the time, so it's more your system then mine.

[RaleighNCDUer]

186. Myself, I don't call the mass execution of thousands of people who

starved the people they were responsible for a "reign of terror". I call it justice (albeit a bit heavy handed).

And Ford's era did NOT die in '47. Any RESPONSIBLE businessman will protect his customer base. That's what it's all about. If you don't protect your customer base you wind up with NO FUCKING CUSTOMERS. As evidenced by the current depression.

Just because exploiting slave labor in China to make cheap crap which unemployed Americans can't afford to buy is the common business model, it doen't make it a GOOD business model.

That's the problem with the goddam MBAs - they never learned that there is anything more imporatant than a quarterly profits report - long term planning disappeard in the 80s when the colleges started churning out the MBAs, who focused only on short term gain, the quick fix, and a really BAD interpretation of "The Art of War".

[HeresyLives]

189. Which has what to do with anything?

Would you like everything the US ever stood for judged by Abu Ghraib?

[RaleighNCDUer]

195. Keep ignoring what I'm saying -

I really don't give a fuck if you run your business into the ground.

But don't be surprised if one fine day you find it's been burnt to the ground by people who DON'T appreciate being exploited.

[HeresyLives]

196. Kay.

And kindly don't threaten me either.

[RaleighNCDUer]

197. Threaten you?

You do realized this is a message board - and ANONYMOUS message board? How the FUCK could I ever threaten someone when I have no way of knowing who, or where, that someone is?

Unless, of course, you consider inviting karmic payback to be a threat - but then, that's you doing it to yourself.

You really ARE delusional.

[HeresyLives]

198. I was feeling good tonight.

Happy for Democrats who achieved a huge victory, and happy for Americans at large because this is a historic change.

Then I find this old thread dredged up again, and people I don't even know saying things like:

'I really don't give a fuck if you run your business into the ground.

But don't be surprised if one fine day you find it's been burnt to the ground by people who DON'T appreciate being exploited.'

Nobody will be burning down my business, it's on the web, and I have no interest in karma or other fantasies.

I see a man trying to make a go of his business, and for that he gets trashed on here.

I see the Chinese being trashed because they have a market, and want to make a go of it too.

So I pointed that out...and suddenly I'm 'exploiting' people, and will get my business 'burnt to the ground'.

Look if you're mad at something, don't take it out on me.

And don't pretend some post on here will stop the changes taking place in the world.

Republicans tried a rear guard action like that today, and lost.

[Raineyb]

41. And how do you expect this man to sell his Chinese-made trinkets if there's on one around

who's employed and has disposable income to buy them?

The idiocy behind the free trade morons is staggering.

[HeresyLives]

48. There are always buyers.

That's the same belief people used to have about the big three.

The idiocy behind thinking only the employees of a firm buy from the firm is staggering.

[bettyellen]

56. lol, not the employees of one form- but all forms silly.....when 15% have lost jobs......

eveyone loses customers.
thanks fo thinking small!

[HeresyLives]

60. 15% out of 100% is miniscule.

And of course there is the export market.

[MattBaggins]

63. 15% is far from miniscule.

You really have no business sense at all do you?

[HeresyLives]

64. Out of 100% it is.

And yes, I've successfully run a business.

[DeltaLitProf]

138. You don't belong on this site

Your posts are notable for their lack of compassion for others who are suffering. Would you like to tell us why you would bother being a member of DemocraticUnderground.com?

Are you Rahm Emmanuel?

[HeresyLives]

140. Are you a Democrat? Rahm is.

Is there some requirement to be anti-Democratic party on here?

[Confusious]

152. The only requirement

Is to have a little more decency then the average person, and think about more then yourself.

You fail on both counts.

And Rahm is pathetic and would sell his own mother for a deal. ergo, he believes in nothing.

[HeresyLives]

192. He's a leading Democrat.

Someone you're supposedly supporting.

[Confusious]

203. I don't have a choice

If it was my choice, he'd be out on his ass.

You seem to like him though, which speaks volumes.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HeresyLives]

82. There are far more employed people than unemployed.

And no, running a successful business is not putting your country in the 'shitter'...it's helping it.

[Raineyb]

92. Running a "successful" business where you're sending money to China when hiring

locally recirculates money into the local (and domestic) economy IS helping to ruin the economy.

And as wages haven't been keeping up with inflation even the employed don't have the extra money to buy foreign made crap. But keep thinking sending money to China helps the domestic economy. Clearly you're not at all interested in REALITY.

[HeresyLives]

97. Business owner is able to pay taxes.

And rent and heat and lights and water...and is not on welfare.

Of course that helps your country.

[Raineyb]

133. The business owner doesn't make any money if no one buys anything from him.

Idiot.

[HeresyLives]

139. But people will.

Moran.

[sabrina 1]

146. Has anyone ever told you how boring you are?

Try another act, this one isn't working for you. I mean, if you can't even be a good flame warrior, do you really think anyone believes you ever ran a decent business or even know anything about it? :rofl:

As any good businessman or woman knows, old, jaded material doesn't sell very well. I'm thinking you were a failure at business. No, make that 'I'm certain you were a failure', and not just in business. :eyes:

[HeresyLives]

191. Only people who haven't got a counter-argument.

:rofl:

[Confusious]

153. Which people?

The ones who have no jobs?

the ones who have to pay shitloads for healthcare?

The ones who are underemployed?

Or the ones with loads of credit card debt?

Or the ones with college degrees an a jobs at mcdonalds, or some other shit place like that?

Which high-paid people are going to be buying the chinese crap?

[HeresyLives]

190. The majority of people.

Whoever wants that item...and we have no idea what it is.

[Confusious]

204. Didn't answer my question

Which people with no money will buy the item?

[Lorien]

88. He's a flame warrior. Not worth your time. nt

[HeresyLives]

91. He who? And what flames?

Are you unable to make your point?

[Raineyb]

94. You got that right. n/t

[HeresyLives]

100. So, neither of you have an argument, and you retreat

in a self-righteous huff. :rofl:

[Raineyb]

132. Actually asshole, I found better things to do with my Saturday night

if that's alright with your ignorant ass.

[HeresyLives]

141. Good, keep doing them.

[spoony]

171. Got that right! nt

[HeresyLives]

193. Well actually,

I'm neither a 'he' nor a 'flame warrior', whatever that is.

[JVS]

205. You're Banned! HAHAHAHAAHA!

[shimmergal]

126. If he's of an age to collect Social Security,

oone would hope his definition of "success" has evolved a bit beyond this.

Doesn't always happen, though.

[HeresyLives]

143. Explain THAT to your bank or the IRS.

[spoony]

170. Big surprise to see this guy here.

Lol, never met a globalist outsourcing scam you didn't love have you?

[HeresyLives]

194. I'm not into ideology.

Not a guy either.

[sandnsea]

10. A local Democrat outsources web work to India

I have called him on it. He is a millionaire and can afford to pay local people who don't charge anywhere near what someone in a city charges. He doesn't care and remains well respected in Democratic circles.

It is difficult to maintain ethics in the face of crap like that. I hope your friend doesn't end up homeless and that's about the best I hope for him if using Chinese slave labor is necessary.

*sigh*

[Better Today]

20. Yep, our state Dem Party here is doing some similar crap,

mainly hiring contract workers then not paying them.

[WeekendWarrior]

11. Sorry, when your back is against the wall

you make compromises. While I don't necessarily condone what he's doing to save his business, I can't say that I really blame him. Times are extremely tough and I think most people will think about themselves and their own family's well-being before letting any particular ideology drag them under to the point that they can no longer eat.

It's ugly, but it happens, and I think we can get a little too judgmental about things. If he's truly a friend, then you remain friends despite the fact that he's doing something you don't approve of. I've had friends who have cheated on their wives and I've expressed my disapproval, but I certainly haven't disowned them. What they do to survive in their own world is their business, not mine. And until I'm in their shoes, I don't feel I can possibly know what they're experiencing.

My two cents.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. The guy owns multiple rentals and draws social security

How is he up against a wall exactly? What part of this tale allows for a jump to a family who can no longer eat?

[WeekendWarrior]

39. Huh? I'm responding to the OP

Didn't see any of that in the post.

Pardon me if I missed it.

[iris27]

42. See post #15 from the author

of the OP.

[WeekendWarrior]

43. Again, as I said, I was responding to the OP

so my response still stands and your objection, while noted, is irrelevant to my original response.

[onpatrol98]

159. His Expenses

Personally, the guy sounds like a jerk. But, honestly, we don't know what his expenses are...is he in debt up to his eyeballs? He may have a show of prosperity, but in reality be broke. Does he have hospital bills? Does he have children with expenses? Is he trying to keep up a mortgage? Hmm...member of the local country club, needing to keep up appearances.

His "not giving a care" about rehiring his local employees may have more to do with his own true debt to income ratio. It may be cheaper to use exported labor, but it's not always an easy proposition.

Then again...he may just be greedy. We don't know. He already sounds like a jerk. It's not a stretch to believe he could be a greedy jerk.

But the point of any business is 1) remain in business, 2) to find ways to increase profits, 3) find ways to reduce your expenses...labor is typically always one of your biggest expenses

In my neck of the woods, the cheapest labor used to be poor Americans, but it has become illegal immigrants. People would go to work in factories and be told simply that the plant was laying off. Then after a time, the plant would start hiring illegal immigrants at much lower pay rates. The previous pay rates weren't generous to start with.

We have construction companies in our area that have told us they can't compete with companies that hire illegal workers. One has already gone out of business. Sure, he was hiring his workers locally. But, he was constantly being underbid by companies he used to compete evenly with. He took a stand. His workers are unemployed, nonetheless.

Once the comprehensive immigration bill passes, they will become legal and demand fair wages as they should. Does the pursuit of cheap wages end? Nope. There will always be a new group of illegal immigrants that will eventually undercut the former immigrants. And, the slave game begins anew.

[Hannah Bell]

86. judgement is just what's needed; judgement, shunning, & publicity.

"don't judge him" -

when he & his kind apply the same yardstick to the poor.

until them, he's an opportunist hypocrite pub.

[SpiralHawk]

12. Republicon business values

Ptooey.

[gimama]

13. YOU aren't losing ANYthing..

YOU are GAINING in perspective & INTEGRITY.
Thank YOU for sharing this story.. a REAL-time example of what is wrong with SOME people's thinking..YOUR feelings, instincts..are RIGHTEOUS & Honorable.

I truly believe in Kharma, & INTENTIONS (Motivations) are very important..
Those who will do anything to reach their 'goal' WILL fail,at some point, & will suffer what THEY inflict on others. Even if this guy "succeeds" for awhile, bizness-wise, his cold-hearted path will eventually be HIS down-fall.

He was no Friend.. he apparently came into Your Life, to show YOU Your OWN deep Morals & HIGH Ideals. Not a FRIEND..a LESSON. YOU aren't losing anything, YOU are ON the right Path.
I HOPE(!)You will realize THIS experience just proves what an INTELLIGENT, tender-Hearted, awesome SWEEET Spirit YOU ARE.

[druidity33]

124. yo, knock it off!

what are you trying to send some kind of coded message with the weirdly capitalized things there? I couldn't focus on any of that!

c'mon...

give an ol' guy a break...


:shrug:

[jotsy]

14. These are times both critical and telling.

I'm fond of referring to the difference between friends and friendly acquaintances. There are times that acknowledgment is painful and leaves us feeling gullible or mistaken. That's not you losing your mind, it's finding your heart. Something your associate has apparently forgotten he should try to hear.

[jody]

19. I understand your dilemma but many who oppose such small business owner goals would quickly adopt

them if they became a small business owner and faced all the risks and obligations inherent in operating a business.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. The man's business is in the gutter. So his methods have failed.

Doing more of the same will bring more failure. Greed as a 'goal' has brought him not success, but to the brink of losing his business. Why would anyone adopt the methods of a failed guy, who has had to fire his employees and is looking to make a slave deal to keep his cash flow going?
I say adopt methods from people who are doing well, not from failures.

[jody]

25. How do you know "his methods have failed"? Open your eyes and see failed businesses in your city.

Are you going to speculate that all their methods have failed?

That makes as much sense as blaming Toyota's quality problems on workers.

I assume you only buy products from original sources that pay workers a decent wage with fringe benefits and produced in plants that are environmentally safe.

Yeah, sure you do!

[Bluenorthwest]

27. Gee, you claimed that anyone would do exactly what this man

did. I do not agree with you. Sorry if that offends you. I'm not talking about other businesses. This guy is on the verge of closing his doors, and to do even that, he has to take all the business away from his community and hire virtual slaves to make a profit. His business model is failing, and his labor practices are not to my liking.
I never made a single claim about what I do or do not do. Nor did I criticize you. I merely said that a guy who is about to shutter his business is not one whose 'goals' I'd 'adopt'. Not unless I wanted to shutter my business as well.
I did not speak of me, nor of you, nor of other business people. That was your screed. My point is don't pattern after those going belly up. Do not adopt the 'goals' of those who can not stay open without hiring slave wage labor. Feel free to argue in favor of slave wages and going out of business as suitable goals, but I will not be doing so.

[jody]

29. I made no such claim. I repeat "How do you know "his methods have failed"? What experience do you

have as a business owner?

[prolesunited]

21. We have a vote and a choice each time we buy something

I buy mostly resale, so I'm not even a blip. But I would buy local and American whenever possible. Remember when Walmart's selling point was "Made in America." I can always tell about how old clothing items are if the have the "Made in the USA" tag. Remember the singing "look for the union label" commercials. I guess I'm probably dating myself here. LOL

[PatSeg]

26. I remember that

and I remember the news story exposing the "Made in America" lie. It didn't hurt Walmart of course. They just started pushing their "low prices" and continued to grow. The average consumer only cared about price, not realizing that some day their job could be affected.

[jody]

32. Agree price is all that matters particularly to those with modest incomes and several people to

support.

I can not find fault with their logic of trying to survive one day at a time.

[Better Today]

35. No but I can sure find fault with the systematic degradation of the working

class and all of its benefits and hopes and dreams that put those people in such modest incomes as to have to make that choice.

[jody]

37. Noble thoughts. I wish you success when you start your business, assume the risks, and

are able to put your ideas into practice.

[Better Today]

57. I have, I do, and I'm in the same boat as many other small biz.

I'm no longer in manufacturing per se, so there's nothing for me to outsource, and I wouldn't if I could.

I am glad that the majority of responders here, don't share your focus on money being the only issue of value.

[jody]

65. Successful businesses, small or large, have learned that making a profit is the only way to survive.

Once that is achieved, the owners who took the risk and workers who contributed to a business' success can determine how to share profits.

Business owners who don't learn that basic truth are known as "failed businesses" and their workers are known as "unemployed".

[Better Today]

69. Well that's one way to look at it, a very selfish way, and I'd like to point

out that a business whose employees are essentially being outsourced to China still have workers known as "unemployed".

Look I see that you are the very type that endorses the extension of slave labor throughout the globe and returning ultimately to the US. I am not, I had hoped that globalization would come with regulations that required the lots of others to raise to our standards, not the other way around. I will never agree that its better to have a business that screws the local community than to have no business at all. I guess I saw too much of this sort of thing in the deep south when I worked welfare there. Whole communities under the thumb of one business entity who kept them working to no end, poor, and indebted essentially to the company store. But gosh, the stuff at those stores was sure cheap compared to a ride into Dallas, or Houston, . . . since they were the only customers the company store had, the prices were set just to where everyone thought they should be able to afford them, on credit of course, because not just yet, maybe next month when they got their sharecropper's share of stuff. . . yeah, I just can't abide or contribute to this downward spiral. I have no doubt I will be a victim of it, but I won't assist it.

[jody]

71. Why do you slander me by saying "endorses the extension of slave labor"? I'm pointing out the

real business environment facing every US business that produces a product that can be outsourced or for which labor can be imported.

What you seem to be arguing is a trade policy that imposes tariffs on imports with the objective of keeping consumer prices high enough so products produced domestically are at parity with imports.

Are you sure you want to do that?

Please check your mail.

[Better Today]

73. If you feel slandered, then perhaps you shouldn't be promoting accepting

"real" business environment, and see further into the future as to what this path will really lead to, which is what I'm discussing. You seem not to care, each man for himself, money as the only value, ....sorry but if you feel slandered, its not something I can solve for you.

[jody]

76. Do you support tariffs to protect jobs like in your OP and all other jobs? n/t

[Better Today]

90. I support tariffs based on the health and prosperity of the workers

doing the job. The higher the health and prosperity, the lower the tariffs.

[jody]

99. Fair enough but general enough to ban Nike et al from importing products made with low wage

labor under unsafe conditions.

Of course that would cause other countries to impose similar restrictions on US products and cause unemployment in businesses that export.

But that's what you want and that's what you'll get.

[Better Today]

103. I see attitudes like yours as the problem. We will never find common ground.

Have a lovely evening!

[jody]

105. "We will never find common ground" if you can't propose a way for US businesses to compete against

cheaper imports without imposing protective tariffs to protect businesses and workers.

[sabrina 1]

74. Meantime, there are families in countries like China whose

children are being abused in order to provide that opportunity. Slave owners had the same argument.

I agree with the OP.

It's easy to be 'moral' and support human rights when times are easy. The real test comes when times get tough. Some retain their moral values and find other ways to survive rather than take advantage of children and people whose circumstances are far more desperate. And others don't.

We honor people who were willing to give their lives for their principles. Well, we give lip service to them anyhow. In reality we are a society that honors opportunists who will abandon all principles in order to 'win' or 'survive'.

That's fine, if that's what we are, then admit it. It's the hypocrisy of the pretense that we are a decent society that bothers me the most. Like 'we don't do torture' ~ until we get scared enough to buy the notion that torture might protect us. One good thing Bush did was to expose the hypocrisy of 'The Land of the Brave'.

[jody]

79. Do you support trade barriers to block all products produced in offending countries? n/t

[sabrina 1]

145. This is what I support.

I support International standards against child labor and a livable wage for workers in countries that the U.S. does business with. Bills HAVE been introduced in Congress to get this done. But again, our Corporate overlords don't like that kind of restriction on their profit margins.

What was they point of your question? It doesn't have much to do with human rights abuses which is what we are talking about. Am I missing something? Is it not possible to trade fairly with other countries WITHOUT abusing other human beings?

Now your turn. Do you support child labor? Do you support it in the U.S. or are American lives more important than those of children in China? It's against the law here, in case you didn't know. The reason is that there is a general consensus in the civilized world that child labor is a crime, not to mention immoral.

What is the line you would draw that you would not cross for profit? If child labor isn't it, what is?

[jody]

161. I support 100% of your standards. So how do you propose to ENFORCE those standards against countries

that export to the US and import our products?

The basic national problem with this thread is that it deals simultaneously with foreign trade policy and Universal Declaration of Human Rights and no one has discovered a way to effectively achieve those goals.

As long as people are willing to buy cheap products made with slave labor whether legally imported and sold at walmarts or illegal knockoffs of brand names smuggled in and sold by unlicensed street peddlers the problem will continue.

[sabrina 1]

178. Thanks for your response and glad we agree.

There are many ways to enforce standards to some degree. We cannot influence the laws of other countries, but we can make our own laws here. Businesses who do not take the necessary care to investigate the business practices of foreign companies they are doing business with, should be held accountable here.

It won't stop some greedy corps from risking the consequences, but it would slow down the profiteering and would also alert foreign corps to the fact that if they want our business, they better raise their human rights standards.

When this country decided to trade with China, apparently it was not made clear that the U.S. does not do business with Corporations that use child labor. Greedy Corporations here were only too happy to overlook these crimes in order to make money.

Education of the population about the immorality of contributing to this abuse helps. I eg, used to buy products made by manufacturers in foreign nations that I did not know used slave labor. Once someone told me, I stopped doing so.

You are right that people will still buy cheap goods, but the fewer who do, and over time those numbers can be increased with pressure on Congress eg until it becomes less expensive to do what is right, the better.

The problem is the U.S. is not a moral country anymore. We don't mind doing business with criminals so long as it benefits us. The people who do have some principles have to work harder to try to change that.

This country needs to provide work for its own people right now. So, businesses, like the one my girlfriend and I started, can find ways to get their products produced here. It isn't easy, there are very few manufacturers left here and the cost is high, but we succeeded in finding a way and still managed to make a profit. 'Where there's a will, there's a way.'

[jody]

180. What do you think of Obama's latest proposal on trade policy, 2010/03/11, link below.

Obama outlines strategy to boost US exports -- and jobs (Christian Science Monitor, March 11, 2010)

Obama outlined a multipart "national export initiative":

• He signed an executive order "instructing the federal government to use every available federal resource" to boost exports. The order created an "export promotion cabinet," made up of the secretaries of State, Treasury, Agriculture, Commerce, and Labor, plus the US trade representative and other officials.

• He revived a separate body, called the President’s Export Council, and named Boeing CEO Jim McNerney and Xerox CEO Ursula Burns as co-chairs. The panel will make recommendations on trade policy.

• Multiple cabinet departments will help create a "one-stop shop" for small employers that want help identifying opportunities and setting up operations overseas. The effort would include embassies and consulates abroad, as well as agencies like the Departments of Agriculture and Commerce.

• Obama pledged to promote new free-trade agreements while also enforcing laws on the books, such as intellectual-property rights. "China moving to a more market-oriented exchange rate would make an essential contribution" to a more-balanced global economy, he said. That move could also help narrow the large gap by which US imports exceed exports.

• The administration will increase access to trade financing. Obama commended efforts by the Export-Import Bank over the past year to step up its activities when US credit markets were impaired.

Candidate Obama promised protective tariffs to labor for their vote, promised the green vote trade treaties with protection for the environment for their vote, and promised those concerned about human rights trade treaties that
protect workers. See Barack Obama on Free Trade

What has President Obama done on NAFTA and his other promises?

[sabrina 1]

184. I haven't had time to read more than the link you provided.

So I can only comment on that so far. It seems the concern is more about the inequities in trade with China favoring them than human rights abuses.

Boosting exports from the U.S. sounds like a good idea on the surface. If it means increasing manufacturing here.

Encouraging American businesses to go overseas, so long as they employ Americans as well as foreign labor, would be fine. But Americans are doing business overseas, using cheap labor rather than provide jobs here, in fact, sending jobs that used to be available here, over there, and as far as I know, still getting tax breaks for doing so.

As for NAFTA, so far, nothing has been done. And if what was revealed during the campaign was true, I wouldn't have much hope of anything being done in the future.

But, as I said, I don't have much information on his policies regarding this issue. I hope they include regulations regarding human rights abuses and wage standards for workers in countries we do business with.

[jody]

199. It looks like whether Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, etc. US policies on free trade

will remain the same allowing import of cheap products from countries with very bad records on human rights and the environment.

[quakerboy]

135. Odd that

The job I had before this, the owner just cared about doing what he did, and making just enough to get by. The business is just over 20 years old, and still going. He started with just him doing what he thought valuable, and because people trust him, there are now 15 employees.

Strange, he doesn't seem to have learned your lesson, but I guess his 15 employees should be grateful that even though they are, as you say "unemployed" by his "failed business", he somehow keeps paying them and providing anyhow.

Your argument is completely without merit. A business can survive on breaking even. A profit is not necessary. Its a perk that can be enjoyed by owners who want it.

[jody]

162. The owner you described succeeded by first finding out how to make a profit and second shared that

profit with labor.

Thank you for an absolutely perfect example of the two points I made in #65.

[quakerboy]

179. Thanks for redefining language for me

Borrowing from Dictionary.com
prof·it
1. a.pecuniary gain resulting from the employment of capital in any transaction. Compare gross profit, net profit.
b.the ratio of such pecuniary gain to the amount of capital invested.
c.returns, proceeds, or revenue, as from property or investments.
2.the monetary surplus left to a producer or employer after deducting wages, rent, cost of raw materials, etc.: The company works on a small margin of profit.
3.advantage; benefit; gain.

He does not take a profit, unless you want to twist the language. He charges what the company needs to pay its employees and comply with relevant laws. He breaks even.

[jody]

182. You are correct profit = revenue - cost but profit comes from someone taking risk by investing

capital. That's entrepreneurship, a person who organizes, operates, and assumes the risk for a business venture.

There's a moral somewhere in the fairy tale about the "The Little Red Hen".

The owner you cite makes a profit in the sense of opportunity cost because an intelligent person can choose to invest capital in a business or alternatives.

If your owner can make a greater Return on Investment (ROI) by investing capital in a business than in other alternatives then that is logical.

If however your owner can make more a greater ROI from investing in alternatives to the business then that's a wise decision.

[quakerboy]

183. Knowing the owner well

He didn't give a damn about "return on investment". And the other MBA phrases would mean equally little to him. He does what he feels is right, and lets the rest flow from that. His only profit is in a moral sense. And it works, and tends to be far more humane as a business than any other (not technically nonprofit) business that I have ever seen.

[jody]

200. I accept your example as you describe but it's a special case at a point in time. Facts are that

demand for the product or service will change, competition will emerge, costs will increase, and labor will turn over.

Are you suggesting the example you use is a business model for all businesses, smallest to largest including those that face international competition?

[PatSeg]

38. True

I've always lived off of a "modest income", flat out poor for much of my life, but I managed to find good deals without setting foot in Walmart. I understand that some people live in areas where they have few retail choices. I've been fortunate to live where I had many stores to chose from and was able to avoid Walmart.

[jody]

44. Looks like we have similar philosophies, "If we couldn't pay cash, we didn't need it" and save a few

dollars whenever we could. :hi:

[PatSeg]

50. I'm afraid there were very few times in my adult

life when there was enough money for "saving" and I have had to use credit cards for necessities, including medical expenses that my insurance company didn't cover. Ironically I stayed at that lousy, low paying job for over five years for that "great" insurance. I tend to be a very frugal person by nature, but there was nothing I could do about the thousands of dollars of medical bills.

[rucky]

30. Is it possible to make an honest buck in America anymore?

I'm beginning to think no.

[jody]

33. " honest buck", no and most of the dishonest bucks are with corporatists and their political lackeys

[Greyhound]

40. Starving companies in the real economy is a vital part of the plan.

This is the position we are put in, help destroy the country or be destroyed.

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

45. I can only lose friends, my mind left years ago.

[Motown_Johnny]

46. It isn't his fault. It Is Our Trade Policies!!!!

This guy has a choice of going bankrupt or importing from China. You can't blame him for simply following the law and importing from China.

[upi402]

49. I know exactly how you feel.. n/t

[Delphinus]

51. {{hugs}}

Good for you, for not letting money rule your actions. May the age of enlightenment find your friend ... and all who could stand to see the truth.

[treestar]

52. All we need to have happen here

The Chinese/Indians make more money and thus are in the market for more goods or services, thus starting to sell to their own selves or buy from us. Win/win for us all.

We do NOT have to keep them peasants forever.

The world is simply readjusting; it is just like prior immigrant groups to the US. They were hated too.

[KonaKane]

53. Money does weird things to people.

Or the love of it does, as per the saying. Sorry to hear about this. It's an awful thing to lose a friend.

[UpInArms]

54. my sister closed her shop and fired 14 people and out-sourced

all the manufacturing to China.

We no longer speak.

[Better Today]

58. That's exactly how I feel. I just fear that now I will only want to say one

thing to him over and over, and it wouldn't be very nice. I just sort instantly quit caring about him, his happiness, or his health, anything, just drained out just like that.

[UpInArms]

75. it makes me sad

because she is a very progressive person in her own right. She just can't apply what she knows is right to herself and her own behaviors.

[Better Today]

109. I know so many people like that around here. Like a couple on this thread,

they ridicule putting principles ahead of "success," and do their best to make it a humiliation or a lack of a grasp on reality instead of recognizing that the only humiliation involved is their own short-(and narrow)sightedness.

[UpInArms]

114. that's because in our world (or theirs actually)

success is measured by dollars and not by what they stand for.

And they actually stand for nothing and fall for everything.

Mostly, their worlds are empty of reality and their friends only hang around while the money flows into their pockets. Real emotions have not been exchanged for quite some time and haven't been missed because they are too busy.

The need to understand who they are and why they are here were questions they asked when they were 15, and the answers were not there then and so they don't care that they don't have a better answer now.

It will only be as they die or lose everything that they begin to question if they had a part in their demise or ... failing that, they will blame anyone and everyone who appears to be different than themselves.

I could go on but it exhausts me.

Hope you can sort some of this out and that you realize that you never truly lost a friend, that person could never truly understand the damage that his/her decisions would have for those that paid their bills because they had a job and that they put their children through school and had a chance to eat out every once in a while because they had a job.

Now, those folks are going to have to deal with a different and harsher reality.

I could only wish that your "friend" could have that experience.

[Better Today]

118. Well said, peace be with you.

[jody]

66. Interesting position. Would you buy products your sister imports? n/t

[UpInArms]

78. not now - the first time she gave me some of the "new"

products, they fell apart and failed. The quality control issues were huge and she acted like that was okay.

Now, I just think about her once (what I thought was wonderful) company and just sigh.

[jody]

81. Fair enough on the quality issue but what if the quality was equal to domestic products? n/t

[UpInArms]

84. somehow, I just can't to the "what if" thing here

sometimes, it is easy to say "what if" this happened, how would you react ...

but this was someone who I had looked up to and believed in. I own a newspaper (a small print only weekly) - how would you feel if I just printed propaganda crap and didn't write my own news stories or found things that mattered to the readers?

Would they notice? Well, I only have the paper because I can do the work and the former owner basically abandoned it and put herself in the position of not knowing how to even send the paper to the press and I was the only one who could do the work.

The subscribers were dropping her paper and not renewing their subscriptions because the quality was so bad.

It's going to be a long hard climb back to a real newspaper, but ... would I just let it die? No.

Will I succeed? Time will tell.

[jody]

93. I really do agree with you but the alternative to importing products at low prices is trade policy

with protective tariffs.

The US has a deficit trade balance and import restrictions will clearly cause other countries to react with their own restrictions.

There is no easy way out of the international trade dilemma.

[UpInArms]

102. I reuse, recycle and reduce my personal consumption

any time that it is possible.

I buy American made when the product is available or ask myself - how badly do I need this? (want gets discarded)

I look at the foreign made goods and ask myself - how badly do I need this and is there any alternative?

It's a hard road and there are many shades of gray.

[jody]

104. I and my friends always buy US products when available but sadly too many businesses are following

Walmart by stocking imports because that's the only way they can compete.

[UpInArms]

106. and the race to the bottom continues

:(

[jody]

107. Please read post #83 in this thread. n/t

[Confusious]

154. How do you think America got to be so rich?

Tariffs, Tariffs, Tariffs.

Everything that competed with goods in the US was blocked from entering the country.

The only people who do well with this free trade crap is the very wealthy, pay shit to have a piece of shit made, sell it at outrageous prices to people who don't know any better.

A $50 pair of nikes costs $15 to make in China.

Why destroy American education? Don't wanna teach the history, or else you'd learn about those tariffs. Wouldn't lap up the "free trade" bullshit mantra, and wouldn't pay that price for those shoes.

[jody]

163. The US dominated the world's economy when we led in R&D and manufacturing technology helped by

natural resources within our nation.

Today the cost to start a new plant is relatively cheap and manufacturing processes require semi-skilled labor.

You claim tariffs made the US rich so are you demanding that we implement more draconian tariffs?[/b

[MikeH]

55. Sorry about your former friend

It seems like the right and healthy thing for you to do is to end your friendship. I don't think one can maintain a friendship with somebody whom one is not able to respect, and that definitely sounds like it is the case with your former friend.

I myself ended a 30-year friendship in 2005 after my friend voted for Bush a second time in 2004. I became friends with him in the mid 1970's when we were both students and working at a part time job sponsored by our state university. He was a fundamentalist Christian but did not fit the worst stereotypes of people of that persuasion. He was a good friend; he was "there" for me as a friend many times over the years.

I was disappointed that my friend was going to vote for Bush in 2000 (anybody but Gore, and he was strongly against abortion), but I was willing to accept it at the time. However I was very much bothered when I got together with my friend in October 2004, and he indicated, without any hesitation, that he was going to be voting for Bush again. It bothered me that he did not seem to have any serious struggle with the idea of voting for Bush a second time, or any doubts or second thoughts.

However I was really bothered that my friend supported the war in Iraq. He felt that it was right to do so to oppose the brutal dictator Saddam Hussein, just like it would have been right to stop Hitler in the 1930's and thereby (hopefully) prevent World War II. However the one thing he said that most especially bothered me was that it was OK that we went into Iraq even though we did not find the purported weapons of mass destruction, because intelligence is not an exact science. To me that sounded like a way to excuse someone who was "his type" of pResident (i.e. ostensibly a fundamentalist Christian, against abortion, and did not have an affair in the White House like the immoral Clinton).

In early 2005, being upset about shrub's second term, I e-mailed my friend to let him know that while I enjoyed our friendship in the past, I had to reevaluate whether I wanted to continue to be friends with him. I could not respect either his politics or his fundamentalist Christian religion any more. Even if my friend was himself not bigoted, intolerant, or "in-your-face", I could not accept my friend having unhesitatingly voted for the candidate who was strongly favored by those in the Religious Right who are these things.

I proposed to my friend that if we got together we could talk about old times, and about work, school, and people we both used to know. However I did not want to hear his thoughts about any controversial issue, and I did not want to hear about either my friend's or his family's church or Christian activities (and I said that to my friend knowing that his wife has a singing ministry that is very important to her). Sometimes limiting topics of conversation works with families.

As it turned out my friend and I both felt it would be best to end the friendship. We did so on good terms, and we both agreed to fondly remember our past relationship, and we both exchanged best wishes for each other's futures.

I liked and respected my friend otherwise, but voting for Bush a second time and being in favor of the Iraq War were unacceptable. And I especially could not and still cannot respect the religious faith of anybody who would support either Bush or the Iraq War.

[Ken Burch]

62. What you've just seen is an illustration of what capitalism does to the soul

Even if you go into business wanting to be a "humane capitalist", the system forces you to become a bastard in the end.

Even if you start out like this:

http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/12/18/wonderful_wideweb__470x365,0.jpg

"the market" ends up turning you into this:

[rosesaylavee]

72. Good for you. I wish there were more like you...

and I firmly believe you did the right thing. Your former friend has completely lost focus on what this gift of life is all about. It's not about making the most bucks possible either. Lost a friend of 30 years this past month over a similar disconnect of values vs actions. Stick to what you know in your gut is the right thing for you.

[jody]

83. Below is a DU post from The BuzzFlash Mailbag, August 7, 2003 re lost jobs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=367x19609
They kept taking

First they took our steel mill jobs, and the people ignored the cries of steel mill workers.

Then they took our textile jobs, and the people ignored the cries of textile workers.

Then they took our automotive jobs, and the people ignored the cries of automotive workers.

Then they took our high-tech jobs, and the people ignored the cries of high-tech workers.

Then they bribed the people's representatives in Washington and the people ignored their loss.

And the only jobs left were in the U.S. Foreign Legion, defending the worldwide assets of those who had taken the people's jobs and stolen the people's government.

The people shouted, "We the people are dead, long live the corporation."

And the high priests of Mammon laughed about how easy it was to destroy the world's longest running, most successful experiment in democracy.

And the thirsty and hungry and sick and imprisoned and naked prayed to Mammon to have mercy on their wretched. miserable bodies because the people had lost the very soul of democracy,

"And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:6)

[UpInArms]

108. ...

we can all only do what we can all only do

I shall not stop because it seems impossible to change

I shall not go quietly

I shall not unnecessarily abet the demise of all that I hold dear

I shall do my part to retain all that I can

I want a world to give to my child and to his children

*************

I am reminded of a Jackson Browne song

Till I go down
Till I go down
Till I go down
I'm not gonna shut my eyes
Till I go down
I'm not gonna shut my eyes
I've already seen the lies
On the faces of the men of war
Leading people to the killing floor
Till I go down
Till I go down
Till I go down
I'm not gonna shut my eyes
No no
Till I go down
Till the world stops spinning around
Till I'm six feet under the ground
Till there's no sound
Till there's no pain
I'm gonna swing this chain
Till I go down
I'm not gonna shut my mouth
I'm for the truth to come out
About the leader with the iron will
And his allegiance to the dollar bill
Till I go down
Till I go down
Till I go down
I'm not gonna shut my eyes
Till I go down

[jody]

113. I just noticed your Avatar. I once belonged to a SB Discussion Group.

Earlier I played poker frequently with a marine who served under SB when he commanded the Marine Expeditionary Force in China.

Have a great evening.

[UpInArms]

115. you have a great evening, also

and for those who wonder what that avatar means, I suggest they read the content at this website

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[jody]

117. I've quoted SB in several LTTE published in state newspapers. Hard to refute someone with two MH. nt

[Lorien]

85. The current American obsession with selfishness, the whole "me first,

screw you" mentality, will ultimately lead to our downfall as a Nation if it hasn't already. I'm so sorry that your friend's greed has undermined his common sense and humanity to such a degree.

[southernyankeebelle]

95. It makes me cry. Our businesses are throughing employees under the bus. How

are people suppose to make a living wage? I don't get it. You see these teabaggers marching in the streets against their own interests and the very people are yelling at Obama because the blame him. I swear all I want to do is cry and turn off the tv. It is so depressing. No wonder god have given up on america. We don't deserve a great country. When you get someone like Beck that says leave your church if they say social justice. Something is wrong with this picture.

[a la izquierda]

101. i like you, you have a good soul

don't sweat the small people. they'll get their just rewards.
worry about the big people in your life. :grouphug:

[Subdivisions]

111. 'America' is dying. n/t

[CoffeeCat]

119. We are all scrambling for the lifeboats...

This is an economic crisis, and the future is uncertain. It's uncertain whether or not we
even have a functioning democracy.

I think it's unfortunate that our world is this way, and that this man even HAS these choices.
However, he's got to survive, eat and make his way in the world. I know you say he has
rental property. That could tank too. People are scared and unfortunately, this is the situation
that exists right now.

If I was in his predicament, and I was scrambling to save every nickel--because I didn't know what
next year would bring for myself (or my kids), I could easily make the choices he's making. I would
also try to help out anyone I could and share my resources and money if I had plenty and others around
me didn't.

However, I wouldn't be proud. I wouldn't tell everyone. I would be ashamed.

We're all on a sinking ship. When crisis happens, sometimes people make decisions like this
and its unfortunate.

[TK421]

121. Your "friend" sounds like a selfish, republican asshole..greedy, looking after himself

and only himself...fuck everyone else, so if I were you cut ties with the fucker

You got a fence on your property? Lenghten it!

[happygoluckytoyou]

122. DONT LOSE YOUR FRIEND OR YOUR MIND----> and this is why

it is all of us WE THE PEOPLE who allow business to do this.... by our laws

WALMART does this

THEY ALL do this

and it is wrong......... but check the brand of the shoes you are wearing......

that is right.............. YOU DO IT TOO....

your car was made there
your shoes were made there
your kids toys were made there

...............AND IF YOU ARE BUYING IT..... aren't you just as much a part of it...

OH sad you.... you would have to pay DOUBLE for american made shoes......

IF YOU WANT THINGS TO CHANGE IT IS THROUGH REGULATION...
if your friend went with your 25% idea..... SOMEONE would do the 50% idea and run him out of business....

.................................. IF YOU WOULD LOSE A FRIEND OVER THIS, YOU SHOULD RECONSIDER YOUR DEFINITION OF FRIEND ..............

[jody]

123. Will the OP author acknowledge the truth in your post? n/t

[Lucky Luciano]

165. By far, the most mature post in this thread. nt

[spoony]

172. It's possible to blame both perpetrators and trade policies

Why let one off the hook with some weak-ass excuse like, "if he didn't do it someone else would"?

[bongbong]

125. rename this thread

The thread should be renamed to "Fighting over crumbs"

The 1% has won. They got the pie, leaving us to fight over the crumbs.

[jody]

127. "Fighting over crumbs" see below.

[Mopar151]

128. The worst thing is, he'll get screwed in the end

Not that he does'nt deserve it. But a lot of the manufacturers with experience in Asian sources (at least in the automotive aftermarket) tell a more cautionary tale. I saw a lot of this in the SEMA trade journal, FWIW.
Basically, the word is to not put all your eggs in one chinese basket, and try to keep a good share of critical processes and final assembly in North America, and watch the quality control on basic processes like a hawk.
Tom Lieb, of Scat engine components, is one of the most succesful at this. He originally went to China because he could not buy small quantities of steel alloy forgings in the US. He spends 2 months a year, in China, personally - and most of the finish machining and heat treating is done at Scat's plant in California. So much so that the products he makes can be legitimately labeled "Made in USA". Other manufacturers in the same game do more in China, and it shows in their product.
According to the SEMA article, the LAST thing you want to do is import a product finished, packaged and branded - you'll be seeing copycats in months, if not weeks. Except that the quality will stink, so not only do you lose the sale, but your reputation as well.
What did we do before Scat started making crankshafts? Most high-performance crankshafts and connecting rods were reworked from used parts ("cores"), or machined from OE forgings obtained through factory involvement in racing. High end stuff was/is machined from high quality bar or plate stock, aka "billet", and priced accordingly.

If your x-buddy's product involves castings, specialised metals (like tool steel), or precise finish machining, he ain't gonna be happy. He's seeing nothing but dollar signs right now, and that's sad. Worst part is, if he were to hire back some of his old employees, on a low inital wage/profit sharing basis, he'd come out better in the long run.

[deaniac21]

129. I think both.

[Quantess]

130. It is sad and terrible, but he is just trying to be competetive.

He just wants to stay in business. Can you really blame him for that? Don't blame him, blame the system. The laws and regulations need to change. Business people should realistically be expected to do anything legal that makes them more competitive and profitable. Of course it's wrong, but how else is he going to compete with WalMart?

[sam sarrha]

131. walk away, dont look back..the negative emotions will only give you heart disease. wont effect them

at all

[Naturalist111]

134. Put the pieces of the puzzle together

it will enlighten you. It will empower you. It will help the change that is needed to come sooner.

[Skip Intro]

137. You probably never did. Most of us probably never did. The newer generations seem to be

less thoughtful, much more materialistic - some sort of debasing going on...or so it seems

[bvar22]

144. Tell us what the product is...

...so we can be certain to never, EVER buy one.

[skeptical cynic]

147. I'm always surprised when people set their principles aside

Principles should be a foundation for action, or they were never principles.

It's like not torturing, then making excuses for torture when you want information; or condemning Predator drone attacks, then escalating them when it suits your purpose.

Clearly, the principles were never there to begin with.

Some call it pragmatism; others call it the absence of a moral compass.

The corporation I work for was considering purchasing a company that makes components for large buildings. The company is very competitive because it has the components manufactured in China and the Philippines. Part of our assessment of the company was a tour of a U.S. manufacturing facility that now sits idle. People looked at me funny when, during our discussion of the deal, I pointed to the obvious irony of asking our union craft people to install components made in this way, and when I asked why we were thinking about paying for assets no longer in use with no plans for use. Basically, we were looking at paying a guy wanting to retire millions of dollars for a mothballed facility and his business connections to slave labor in Asia. I don't think it was only my objections, but the deal fell by the wayside.

These kinds of decisions are made every day by businesses putting profits before people. Which is what got us in this mess.

I don't see any problem with including moral considerations in business decisions.

[Hubert Flottz]

148. What all these smart guys haven't figured out yet is...

How can people in the USA keep on buying, when they don't have jobs anymore? The brick wall is almost in sight!

[B Calm]

155. This is why we need fair trade tariffs! If it cost one dollar in labor costs

to make the product in the USA and 10 cents in China, then there should be a 90 cent tariff when it comes into this country!

[howard112211]

156. You usually can't choose which parts of capitalism you want to have and which you don't like.

If the system is set up to benefit manufacturing in china, those who don't do so will be out of business eventually. That is the law of the market. Blaming an individual small business owner for submitting to it is akin to blaming a person for joining the imperial army out of "economic draft". I take it, since you are such an idealist, when given the choice between an expensive product that respects all environmental and political purity standards and a cheaper product that might have been produced at the expense of someone else or
the environment you have a 100% record of always choosing the expensive product.
I take it you are also a vegan and don't own a car. Otherwise, you are guilty of the same thinking as your friend.

[B Calm]

158. We use to have fair trade tariffs, what happen?

[JustAnotherGen]

164. He has now shown you who he is

You have no choice but to believe him. I'm single, most of my girlfriends are. This is our mantra to each other when a 'guy' shows the negative consistently.

It's no different in friendships. He's shown you who he is, at his heart, his soul, his sense of treating other human beings well for treating them well's sake (he didn't he's listening to the Radio Station WIIFM) - believe him. ;-)

[Fire1]

166. This 'saying' came from Maya Angelou. I, too,

have remembered and applied it in every area of my life. Good sound advice from a very smart lady.

[unblock]

167. this is why we need government. the businesses republicans laud are not "patriotic"

they're just out to make a buck. and if it does good by the country as a side benefit, well that's just a happy accident. or if you're REALLY cynical, it's a sign that you didn't make as much profit as you could have.

otherwise decent people LEARN the rules of the business world, and when they put their "business" hat on, they only think about the profit per the business rules. and cheaper labor is part of that equation.

only government can intervene and find a way to say, hey, hiring people HERE is better than hiring people THERE. that can happen with tarriffs or taxes or regulation or restrictive laws or exchange rate manipulation or whatever.

but it won't happen because businesses are patriotic. HAH!


my own company of two dozen people used some programmers in india for a while. we kepts narrowing down exactly what they would do because it wasn't practical for time zone and communication reasons. eventually we stopped altogether because even at a steeply discounted price, it just wasn't worth it. find a BUSINESS reason to not offshore and a business will stop offshoring!

[Joe Chi Minh]

168. The soft underbelly of mankind, who pride themsleves on their hard-nosed

pragmatism. Not a moral fibre in their being. The kind who don't have a problem working as secret police under South American dictators, or as 'interrogators' in Guantanamo. The scabs who break strikes, yet are happy to take the better pay and conditions fought for by their co-workers. The ones who have brought the world to the verge of economic ruin.

[eppur_se_muova]

169. It's been said you never really know someone until you go into business with him ...

and then it may be too late.

Sounds like you found out in time, more or less. :(

[Technodaoist]

173. Matthew 16:26

or Mark 8:36 - Same idea

"For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?"

And I'm not trying to inject religion into this, just using google to find a quote...

[Jakes Progress]

174. It ain't the Chinese that are our enemy.

It goes back to Pogo. "We have met the enemy, and he is us".

We have this argument in one of my hobbies all the time. People complain about the cheaply made Chinese junk. But manufacturers alway tell the forums that China could make things just as well and with the same precision as products that can be made here. But they produce to the importers specs. If they made it as well as they are made here, it would cost about the same. They could pay better wages and provide better working conditions except that the price American importers want to pay preclude this. The importers can't get by with demanding those conditions here so they go there. Then consumers want things cheap and get them that way. Your friend's product will be a cheap piece of crap because that is what he is willing to put his name on and sell. He profits from Chinese oppression and American gullibility. Sounds like one of Sarah's heroes.

[notadmblnd]

175. it's the typical I got mine fuck everybody else Freeper mentality at work

hopefully, karma comes full circle for him.

[lunasun]

177. drop the greedy sucker!!!

he will only get worse - he has chosen what path to take and wont go back up the road to reason now
save your sanity no more contact that is what i did in similar situations:thumbsup:

[Duer 157099]

181. This, to me, is no different than shopping at WalMart

The rationale is exactly the same, and I understand that some literally have zero choice, which is sad. But those who even have *any* choice, and still shop there, well, it's the same as what your "friend" is doing. imho.

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. He will learn what another company did

the other company is no longer in bidness by the way.

I remember having that conversation oh about 2003. So I asked this company rep... ok fine, go to China. What happens when YOUR CUSTOMERS cannot afford to buy your baubbles because they have NO JOBS?

Well, to make a long story short... that company is no longer in bidness, since indeed, they produce a luxury product and their customer base cannot afford it.

I see them as a canary in the mine... of what is happening. And yes, jobs will come back, but only when there is not enough bidness... and your friend's business might just fail because of that.