What a clusterfuck.

[Fading Captain]

I'm at a loss.
On the one hand, a group of people I almost always disagree with appear to be on the verge of torching the nation.
Why?
Over a health care "reform" bill that I am 70 percent opposed to.

I am revolted by the opponents. I am shocked and dismayed by their ignorance. Their hate. Their total disdain for the facts. These people -- and there are a lot of them, I work around many of them each day -- are spinning out of control. They're being pushed to the edge of God knows what by the hyperpropagandists on television, radio and the Internet. There are racists. There are war mongers. There are nut jobs.
But mostly, it's a bunch of stupid people who've been programmed to react in a selfish, greedy and grumpy way.
They are truly a scourge.

On the other hand, they are protesting a bill I can't stand. They are protesting a bill that will force every person in the country, so long as they are breathing, to purchase health insurance.

And this fucking hell hole of a bill is brought to you by a party elected by liberals, unions and civil rights activists.

People I agree with and people I respect are supporting this because they believe it is the last hope. I believe supporting something like this signals that I've given up hope. That I've decided that "not good enough" will have to do. That "Yes we can" was just a marketing ruse and that the reality is, the Democratic Party is just another corporate-owned party.

The lesser of evils.

What a truly fucking sad display of a badly deteriorated democratic republic.

[gateley]

1. I really don't think it's the Bill those people are opposing -- their racism has

launched them from their homes into the street.

But I get your point.

[Fading Captain]

2. yeah ... i suppose

These people, some racists, some not, truly believe they are being taxed to death.

A lot of these fucking idiots are paid by taxpayer dollars. A lot of these morons are collecting unemployment extensions.

Or they are on social security.

They don't know what the fuck they are protesting, to be honest. They just know things are bad. They are anti-gay, anti-black, anti-everything that's not white and Christian, and they're being motivated by propagandists.

Nobody is pissed about the corporation that just cut their job or canceled grandpa's pension. Nobody is pissed by the corporate control over everything. Nobody at all appears to give a flying fuck about war.

They're only pissed by taxes and government.

[tigereye]

44. yes, it's a total distratction, with those folks fighting things that could bene-

fit them. So many people are just one paycheck away from disaster, lost job, lost healthcare, etc. I really don't totally understand their reaction.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

117. I'm sorry, but I believe that at the end of the day, it's racism. Period. These people know...

damn well that they aren't being taxed unless they smoke. Taxes have NOT gone up, nor will they if they make less than $200,000!! They know this shit. It's about race.

I'm a federal government employee. The members of congress--ALL OF THEM--are employed by the federal government.

If they are so against "government run" health care, then they should give up their PUBLIC OPTION and demand that ALL federal government employees do the same.

If these people were so concerned about the debt, then why weren't they storming the streets in protest of Bush/The Republican borrowing from COMMUNIST CHINA to fund two illegal wars and a Medicare Prescription Plan...all of which aren't paid for?

I'm sorry. I just don't buy the argument that it's about government and taxes. Republicans expanded government. They gave tax breaks to the richest of the rich. I didn't see any tea bagging protests for 8 fucking years! I DON'T BUY IT!!!

When they can't provide a coherent, fact-based argument as to why they are protesting when they actually received a TAX CUT (thought the stimulus)--NOT A TAX HIKE--then, the only remaining explanation is race.

And yes, I believe they are ALL racists. Why? Because the ones that supposedly aren't racists are not demanding a change in tone. They are not standing up and denouncing the hate speech and incitement to violence. They are being dishonest. So, as long as they remain silent, like the Republican Party, I will believe that they are racists and that this whole fiasco is about RACE.

[TorchTheWitch]

25. racism is only a small part of it

Mostly it's just because they're Repubs and the president isn't. If Obama was a white guy they'd still be out in the streets. The fact that he isn't is just a bit more icing on the cake for some of them.

It sure looks like not a one of them has a clue about anything about this bill. Looking at their signs they seem to think this is government healthcare (though they'd claw out the eyes of anyone that wants to take away their government Medicare) and socialism when it's actually the opposite of that. It's actually ironic that they're protesting a bill that contains mostly what they claim to be FOR... private industry for-profit whoefully unregulated health insurance that isn't paid for with taxes.

[Chulanowa]

30. If he were white they'd be at home, bitching at the TV

They didn't do this with Clinton. This is special treatment, roll out the red carpet and put on the white hoods.

Hate to tell you, and all the other Democrats who suddenly develop an apology complex every time someone points out these fuckers are racist first and foremost, but... these fuckers are racist, first and foremost.

Call them on it, stop helping them pass it off.

[Lilyeye]

32. Thank you!

[watrwefitinfor]

33. +1

[Fading Captain]

34. I know a lot of these people

Some are overt racists.
Some are racists and pretend they aren't.
But some are just angry people looking for a place to direct their anger.

[The Hope Mobile]

66. They'll "become" racists because that's the way FOX et al are pushing them on this

They're just desperate for a place to direct their anger . . . which should be AT THE CORPORATIONS . . . but instead its at non-existent socialism and anybody they think is receiving entitlements because that's what they're told (BY THE CORPORATIONS) to think.

[SemperEadem]

64. +1 thank you.

This is totally about a black man running the US. It interferes with their ideal of their "heritage", which is never to be subordinate or respectful to any black person.

They don't give a fuck about taxes--it didn't bother them that bush and the thugs ran roughshod with people's taxes, forcing the middle and lower classes to pay for the wealthy's share, forcing the middle and lower classes to fund two unpaid for wars, a prescription drug plan. They had no problems coming off of that money when it was a white guy who was driving the country into a ditch.

they are counterfeit, through and through.

[kath]

97. +10

[Born_A_Truman]

109. +1000!!

[gateley]

41. I agree that they're against it because they're Repubs and believe

what their smarmy leaders are telling them. And you're right, it's not ONLY racism. But I think it's racism that has ignited so many and to such a level of anger. I've become more and more convinced of this as time goes on. I think it's a much bigger part of it than you do. I'm hoping you're right and I'm wrong because it makes me sick to my stomach. :(

[CrispyQ]

45. I agree with you, Torch.

Sure, a number of them are racist, but certainly not all - maybe not even a majority.

They are authoritarian "followers" who have played by "the rules" all their life & see their way of life deteriorating. They are angry because when you play by the rules, then things should go as you were told they would go - the value of your house should always go up, your 401k should never depreciate by 30-40%, you shouldn't go bankrupt when you have health insurance, your children shouldn't be living with you when they are 25 & you should be able to retire in modest comfort.

Since they don't think for themselves, they would never question the possibly that their authoritarian "leaders" are the ones who misled & betrayed them. And in spite of their talk of personal responsibility, they know nothing about it. They were told & accepted the rules & they have mindlessly lived their life by those rules without questioning. So it never occurs to them that some of their bad situation is directly related to the fact that they abdicated their personal responsibility when they lived their life the way someone else told them to.

They are looking for someone to blame - anyone but themselves & their beloved authoritarian leaders - & that includes liberals, feminists, minorities, poor people, & yes, our black president. But it is less about his being black, or our being feminists or poor or liberals, than it is that we are not one of them, therefore, we are to blame.

This is one of the best books I've read about authoritarian followers & leaders. It's all online & free!

The Authoritarians
Bob Altemeyer

http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. That is a very good point

The Teabaggers are often justifiably angry, but their ignorance makes them susceptible to the nonsense that the Limbaughs and Becks of this world are spouting.

Unfortunately, the Left has not been talking to them at all for the past 30 years.

[liberalhistorian]

76. That's an excellent point about us not talking to them.

Too often, the Left looked down on anyone who disagreed with them instead of looking on them as real people and trying to understand where they were coming from, then engaging them in meaningful conversation. And we are really paying the price for that.

Dissent Magazine even had an excellent article on this very topic a few months ago.

[AlbertCat]

106. Too often, the Left looked down on anyone who disagreed with them

Prove it.

Examples please...don't forget "too often".

Talk about falling for GOP talking points!

Seems to me since Reagan, Liberals have been getting lectured on what is right and looked down upon.

[AlbertCat]

104. racism is only a small part of it

yeah....like 75%.

His mixed race and middle name are major motivating factors. I know you don't want it to be.... and they will swear it isn't (as they carry a sign with him as a witch doctor or Ayatollah) that it's just fear of communistic-fascism.... or is that fascistical-communism.... or some other political thing that cannot even exist. How can they be so worried about a government take over when they're fine with torture, the end of habeas corpus, and a military-styled government-on-alert? They don't know what communism or fascism or habeas corpus is. But they know what a high-brow, half-breed with a funny name is.

[saltpoint]

3. As a stand-alone outrage, I am pretty much beyond furious at the

bigoted assholes who assailed John Lewis and Barney Frank.

It doesn't get too much more ugly than that.

[Fading Captain]

5. Really? I think it does.

I think the liberals allowing the Democratic Party to be hijacked by Corporate Big Business "fight for nobody" fuckwads is a bigger tragedy than hateful fuckers spitting on gays and blacks.

Because those fuckers are going to do that kind of shit anyway. And in the old days, when the Democratic Party stood for something, we would have had a party to fight against it.

Not anymore. This party is too fucking busy apologizing for what it believes in instead of fighting for what it believes in.

It is ashamed to be "Prolife"
THis party fucks over union workers at every turn.
This party is ashamed of pacifism and looking "weak"
This party is won't take on the hate mongers of the Christian Right.
This party goes on fox news and tells the fuckheads that they didn't give the "left" what they wanted.


This party is a fucking joke.

[saltpoint]

9. This evening I am giving consideration to the dignity that Lewis

has shown, and the feisty combativeness that Frank has shown, in the face of snide opposition.

And I have a problem with adults who spit on U.S. Congressmen. Most of us are not raised to behave like that and most parents we know did not raise their children to behave like that.

It is extraordinarily low rent conduct, in my opinion.

The Far Right evidently has not been able to stop this legislation from going forward and so they behave like barn animals fighting over a shred of food. It was disgusting.

[Fading Captain]

35. Of course I have a problem with it

These people are crazy, and they appear to be gathering steam

[saltpoint]

38. Yes. They have a dangerous sort of imbalance about them, and the media

tend to cover things like that because it jacks up the ratings.

There are a lot of people in the upper and lower chambers I disagree with. I'm not telling anyone in the Baggers movement they aren't entitled to their opinion.

But no matter how much I would disagree with someone like Boehner or DeMint or Inhofe etc. I would not drive to Washington and try to spit on them. For me, what happened to someone in a wheel chair and an Afro-American Congressman and a gay Congressman was definitional in how these Bagger movement folks solve problems -- they don't solve them at all, but only express their contempt.

[kath]

98. The party is a total fucking joke (with the possible exception of less than a handful) and I am

beyond disgusted.

[CrispyQ]

143. ...

"This party is too fucking busy apologizing for what it believes in instead of fighting for what it believes in."

My conclusion is that they don't believe in these things anymore. Oh, they tell us they do so that we'll vote for them, but it's clear that too many of our dems are not really dems at all. Every time we vote for pseudo-dems based on the "lesser of two evils" argument, we send the message that we're ok with their continual shift to the right. And then, that's just what they do - shift to the right even more! It's a dreadful Catch-22 for liberals.

And to those who ask, "Do you want the likes of McCain/Palin in charge?" Well, of course not! Don't be stupid & insulting. But when that happens, cuz it will, don't blame the liberals - blame the pseudo-dems who are more republican than democrat, & who drove the liberals from the party by betraying our values.

"This party is a fucking joke." Yes, it is.

[hisownpetard]

118. Those people are disgusting, hate-filled automatons, fueled by the 24/7 propaganda

put out by Fox News et al. The reason Fox repeats the same key phrases over and over, ad nauseum,
is cult-like conditioning for its followers.

When a reported asks them a question about why they're opposing a specific piece of legislation, they cannot discuss it: they
just spit out the sound bytes they've heard a hundred times and therefore memorized.

Their repulsive behavior will be their downfall.

[saltpoint]

147. I hope so, and the sooner the better.

Hey there.

Very nice to see an unquestionably top-drawer poet on the DU boards.

I hope all's well your way.

[hisownpetard]

160. Thanks so much! (If you're on Facebook, let's be friends!)

[ibegurpard]

4. well said

pretty much exactly how I feel.

[DFLforever]

6. It's the end of the Reagan era.

That's what they see in this bill.

[Lorien]

17. While it's really more of an extension of it

which is the crazy bizarro world part of all this.

If Reagan had never killed the Fairness Doctrine this wouldn't be happening. But then, he knew exactly what he was doing.

[DFLforever]

24. To me the essense of Reaganism is,

"I've got mine". It's the whole of the Republican ethic today.

[Enthusiast]

28. Randian.

[Lorien]

61. Yep, Rand was the mother of this insanity. n

[TheMadMonk]

103. Sorry to tell you this, but it's an "American" thing, more than it is Republican.

And it's why they've been so successful in coopting the "left" side of the political arena for themselves while keeping the truly left leaning out of politics.

His own sweat and blood.
By his own hand.
By his own bootstraps.
even Don't give a sucker an even break.

These pithy American ideals and a whole lot more besides all, all too easily morph into "I busted a gut getting here. No god-damned freeloader is gonna profit from my effort." Or can be pushed in that direction with great ease with the right memes.

Fairness in America tends more towards a sense of personal return for effort expended, with far less emphasis placed on communal benefits than in other parts of the world.


And while it might be our Corporate Masters making hash of our intangibles, in the end the they are the ones that give people the money that spends. And it is Government(s) that take money away in return for benefits so difuse that the only ones who visibly benefit are the ones visibly contributing the least. Which (thankyou very much) ties in quite nicely with the "god-damned freeloader" meme, giving birth to the (da da da dum) "Welfare Queen".

[nebenaube]

84. no he didn't

he was a fucking puppet who was asleep half the time.

[Political Heretic]

95. This bill is the epitome of a trickle-down philosophy

prioritize the wants and whims of the financial elite ahead of the best interests of poor and middle class families, argue the benefits fed to insurance giants will "trickle down" to everyone else.

[AlbertCat]

107. It's the end of the Reagan era..... PLEASE!!!!!!

[readmoreoften]

7. What floors me is the people who don't see it. There are the crazies on the far right.

And there are the progressive people who see the enormous problems with the bill. But then there are the tone deaf opportunists who simply can't understand why it is an unmitigated disaster to have an administration pass this sort of corporate-enriching legislation in the name of "liberalism", which to most Americans means "the left." When it blows up as a disaster--when the MSM focuses on the families bankrupted by these insurers, these vampire squid especially when it gets worse after (the eventually elected) Republicans undermine the legislation to benefit the insurers more this corporate giveaway will be blamed on "liberalism", "progressivism", and "leftism". People will identify the left with the corporate state. There will be no where left to go but the right to find some "populism."

He would've been better off politically forcing single payer on all Americans. Even if there were riots on the streets, in the long run, they'd say: "Hey, I have fucking health care. All right!"

This country is a disaster area. The last thing we needed was a fascist like Palin. The second to last thing we needed was a bipartisan who considers what fascists and the plutonomy have to say.

[Fading Captain]

36. That's the 100 percent truth

His enemies are going to call him a dictator anyway.

So why not do the right thing?

[kath]

100. yep - the Repugs would hate WHATEVER he did. But he didn't even TRY to do the right thing.

Chickenshit corporatist asshole.

[CrispyQ]

46. We;; stated!

"The last thing we needed was a fascist like Palin. The second to last thing we needed was a bipartisan who considers what fascists and the plutonomy have to say."

:applause:

I agree with your entire post. I believe this bill will come back to haunt the dems & it will do more damage to liberal progress than not doing anything would have. When you have an out of control, exploitive behemoth, the insurance companies, you don't feed it more! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[kath]

101. I also believe it will do far more damage than doing nothing would have.

I may have to take a long break from following politics & DU, because I'm so damned disgusted I can't stand it.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[CrispyQ]

144. Ignorance is bliss.

Every time I've taken a break from DU & politics, I'm happier - much happier! But then I start thinking that a lot of why we're in this awful mess is that too many of the People have done just that - dropped out of the political scene, so that when the media distorts the truth, they don't know that they are being lied to. So then I tune back in & my attitude goes in the crapper & I deal with it for awhile before taking another break. Arghh!!!

[Gin Blossom]

That's my fear.

Populism will be grabbed by the right wing crazies, and the Democrats will look like the faceless bureaucrat AND corporatist party. This is some brilliant "chess playing".

[Gin Blossom]

110. That's my fear.

Populism will be grabbed by the right wing crazies, and the Democrats will look like the faceless bureoucrat AND corporatist party. This is some brilliant "chess playing".

[Blue_Tires]

142. I agree that public option should have included from the start...

or some bigger steps taken to finally take the profit motive out of the industry...

[wildbilln864]

159. thank you! nt

[sabrina 1]

8. Well, look at it this way. Whether wittingly or unwittingly

(and I'm beginning to wonder if THIS is the 3 dimensional chess we keep hearing about) they are serving the purpose of giving those pushing this bill the talking point of calling people like me, who strongly opposes it, 'tea-bagger supporters'. The result being that many people who oppose it for all the right reasons will be hesitant about expressing their opposition, especially now with the bill up for a vote, for fear of being aligned with these lunatics.

Personally, I am confident that my opposition to this bill is the right position to take and am not influenced by what freepers or tea-baggers do or say. I simply don't care about them. Why should I? They are a side-show, they have nothing of interest to say and I rarely bother reading about them and don't watch TV 'news'.

I oppose this bill and cannot believe that Democrats are responsible for it.

I wonder though, and this was raised during the summer, if someone isn't using the tea-baggers to silence the opposition on the left. That would definitely be 3-dimensional chess. It would be a left version of Rovian dirty tricks.

You can be sure though, that if you do voice your opposition to this bill, someone WILL accuse you of 'voting with the tea-baggers'. I just laugh at those tactics, they certainly won't silence me, or change my mind. The bill is a travesty with no more good in it than we have in the current system, which also has 'some good' in it.

[glitch]

47. Like the base rallying around Clinton when he was unfairly attacked.

Giving cover for Welfare "reform", NAFTA, the Telecom Act and the repeal of Glass-Steagal.

Basic manipulation, neo-con=neo-lib=neo-fascist style. And this time around it actually worked on Dennis Kucinich.

[sabrina 1]

56. Exactly. I made that mistake not knowing much

about the politics at the time.

I saw Kucinich on TV yesterday. He seemed so sad. It makes even more angry at the leadership of this party for putting people like him, Dorgan and so many other good Democrats in this position, Democrats who we know would have enthusiastically voted for a Single Payer system and fought for it.

To twist the arms of people of principle to get them to do something against their conscience, is about as low as you can get. I think Kucinich weighed the decision he had to make, whether to stay in the game, or be forced out. By staying he believed he could still keep fighting. But it was a cynical and disgusting thing to do on the part of the leadership, to so betray the people who elected them, for him to have to make such a decision. Little wonder that some of them are quitting, like Dorgan.

[glitch]

58. I agree completely.

The look on Dennis Kucinich's face is heart-breaking. Despicable way to treat progressives -- their alleged allies -- and the administration isn't deep enough to consider their toxic actions as anything other than a "winning plays". The end justifies the means.

They are making us all, their supporters, their opponents, even themselves, sick.

edit: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7972497

[ogam5]

127. DON'T make excuses for Dorgan......

....the bastard is sponsoring a draconian bill with McCain to severely restrict access to nutritional supplements (ostensibly to prevent performance-enhancing attempts by athletes) thereby pushing the US closer into compliance with the Codex Alimentarius - and if that does happen, it's all-out WAR with me

[ChiciB1]

87. What YOU Said sabrina 1 & What YOU Said Crispy Q... And All Others WHO

like me feel sucker punched in the gut!! At least "we" will stand and take the criticism, at least "we" will stand and let them call us out!!

Let ANYONE call me a Tea-Bagger to my face and I will defend myself with whatever it takes! I AM NO racists, I am no turn coat, I AM NO Corporate Sell-Out!! I could go on about I AM NOT! But what I AM is a DEMOCRAT of the past! A Democrat who stands for "we the people" who has been abandoned by people I THOUGHT were on my side!

What we do from here I don't know. What CAN we do, I don't know! But what I DO KNOW is that we MUST DO SOMETHING!!

Or is it REALLY TOO LATE??

[sabrina 1]

113. You never have to defend yourself against people

who would use such a Rovian trick. Just make sure to tell them you know what they are trying to do. Anyone calling themselves a Democrat who would try that, is definitely not a Democrat, so their opinions are worth as much as any tea-bagger to me.

I've spent a lot of time arguing with rightwingers and I recognize their tactics when I see them. It would be beneath any Democrat to try to win an argument by calling a person who has a sincere disagreement on an issue like this, a tea-bagger. They deserve to be exposed for what they are. Nothing more than Rovian dirty tricksters, something all Democrats claimed to despise. They now have to live with the reputations they've earned.

What we do from here, I don't know either. But we could start by helping to primary those most responsible for excluding even a discussion of a PO. And by refusing to donate to Political Pacs where some political operative decides who runs and who the money goes to.

No more 'lesser of two evils'. We need to find candidates who are running against DLC choices, such as Marcy Winograd, challenging Blue Dog obstructionist, war supporter, anti PO incumbent, Jane Harman. Winograd needs support now, as the DLC machine is funding Harman. And there are a lot of other good Dems who will need our support.

Congress is where we need to focus our attention. It doesn't matter who is president, if Congress refuses to vote for bad policies. The problem now is there are not enough Liberal members to overcome the DLC crowd. But we can fix that over time. We wasted a lot of time on the Presidential race, and money, that would have been better spent on Congressional races, imho.

We need to drag this party back to the left no matter how long it takes.

I'm with you, I don't envy anyone who dares to call me a 'tea-bagger', or as some even on this board, accused Kucinich of, 'voting with Republicans' and 'wanting to kill 45,000 Americans' I will remember that person who now claims to respect Kucinich. All outright lies which they knew. What it demonstrated was that they were wrong and they could not defend their position so they took the Rovian low road and attacked with lies, good Democrats like Kucinich.

On the good side, we know a lot more now, than we did before about our so-called allies. And their tactics!

Thanks for your response. Sunshine is the best disinfectant and fear of being called names, is just not something I worry about nor should anyone. When they resort to such tactics, we KNOW how weak their position is and that even they know it. :-)

[CrispyQ]

145. It's the same when they say things like,

"You must prefer McCain/Palin, then." That fellow DUers would accuse us of that is insulting. I wonder if those who make accusations like that even know what democratic values are?

ChiciB1, I've tried to remain optimistic, but I fear it's really too late. I don't see how we can salvage anything good out of a system that is totally putrid & corrupt from the inside out.

[kath]

102. Good point about "using the tea-baggers to silence the opposition on the left"

hmmmmmmm...

[regnaD kciN]

10. I've got to call you on this one...

They are protesting a bill that will force every person in the country, so long as they are breathing, to purchase health insurance.

That's simply not true. If you're at 133% of less of poverty level, you will be automatically covered by Medicaid, and won't have to purchase anything. Above that level, if the cheapest available insurance policy for you, after subsidies, comes to more than 8% of your gross adjusted income, you are exempt from the mandate, and can choose to not obtain insurance coverage without facing a cent of penalties. I ran the numbers on that a few months ago, and found that individuals making less than $70K and families making less than $125K will basically be off the hook for any mandate -- and those above it are almost certainly in jobs that offer health coverage anyway. It's as close to a "pretend mandate" as anything I've seen.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ColesCountyDem]

81. You've had the courage to write what I've been feeling for a while now.

I thought I was the only one who felt that way.

:hi:

[Fumesucker]

39. Why not do an OP and show your work on this?

I for one would like to see the numbers and I would welcome someone showing us with hard data that we don't have to worry.

[sabrina 1]

62. Why does a health care system have to have so many

'categories' of people? Isn't the one thing that should be equal for all people, rich and poor, the right to 'life'? Why should those who are just above the line where they would qualify for help, have to buy the cheapest product because that's all they can afford? Is the value of a rich person's life greater than that of a working father or mother who is making just enough not to qualify for any help, but not rich enough to buy insurance that doesn't have such big deductibles and co-pays that will not be able to get the care they need?

The complexity of this bill is unbelievable. Elderly people, people with not much education, disabled, mentally ill people will never be able to understand it and many, as happened with the Medicare D bill, will lose benefits available to them, because of it. I have helped some elderly people trying to navigate their Medicare benefits who fell into the donut hole, having no clue what that was, and ended up not taking medications they badly needed.

Not to mention the fact that the 'subsidies' that are being lauded over and over, are nothing more than a transfer of public funds into private business.

Why are Medicaid funds now passing through the Private Insurance Industry? This is worse than what we had. As we all know, now they are getting their hands on those public funds, at least 20% of them will disappear before reaching the beneficiaries.

Why is the government not handling these public funds as was intended? I think the answer is clear and the subsidy part of the bill, one of the biggest windfalls for an industry that should have been allowed to die off as it was doing before this bail-out.

[Amonester]

112. +1000

The complexity of this is ALL on purpose, and it confirms (once again) that nobody's equal (in spite of what the Declaration Of Independence 'says').

The number of people who will STILL be suffering and dying for years because the current Democratic party 'leaders' refuse to do what they should to really help them is unacceptable.

Let's see who (and HOW...) will 'fix' it...

I'm not holding my breath.

[DeschutesRiver]

65. I hope that is correct

I've understood that the mandate aspect is the most shaky part of this bill for awhile. But I wasn't aware of what you just posted, and I am thinking it through right now. Thanks for mentioning it.

[Raksha]

68. I am saving your post, because I don't qualify for Medicaid now,

and I believe my income is about HALF the poverty level! I haven't heard ANY of this before, that people making under $70,000 a year will be exempt from the mandate. This is the first I've heard it.

[laughingliberal]

83. Your 8% figure is not accurate

People who have employer provided insurance that would cost them more than 8% for their part of the premium can get a credit which they can use to buy from the exchange. If you're above 400% of FPL and in the private market you will get an exemption if your premium is more than 17% of your income.

[nebenaube]

85. big deal...

at that level you can't afford to eat.

[TheMadMonk]

114. Depends on if there's any room for bracket creep in the equations.

And on the exact numbers you feed into them.

One absolute term, hidden in a definition on page twenty seven could easily turn a great deal now into a nightmare later on.

Even if the equations are clean. The conditions are not.

[zipplewrath]

115. Um, maybe it's a Semitic thing but.....

What you are saying is that the poorest, the vast majority that could have been covered anyway if they had known, wont have to worry about being penalized. After that, you can be forced to buy a policy that won't guarantee you any health CARE. Really, this is what the final analysis is about. This is a health INSURANCE bill and doesn't address AT ALL, whether at the end of the day the people have a right to health CARE. Quite the opposite, it suggests that health CARE should be subject to the forces of the the "free market".

[ogam5]

121. Yeah, RIGHT......

.....we'll just SEE how long that loophole is available.....

[Skittles]

11. yup, you nailed it

it is an all-around pathetic situation - I am completely disgusted

[cherokeeprogressive]

12. I really take offense at the kind of generalization you're making. I have been an opponent of this

bill. I'm now convinced that it will pass, and when it does, I'll shift to advocating fixing the bad parts. I'll be joining the fight to make it better.

Not ALL opponents of this bill are racists. I'm not a racist, nor am I a warmonger or nutjob. I don't hate ANYONE.

My wife's retirement package is where I get my medical insurance. She retired from PacBell, which is now AT&T. We have Kaiser. She's coming up on 61, and I'm coming up on 49. I'm afraid that AT&T will reneg on their contractual obligation to provide her with medical insurance. It's happened before.

Either way, I'm going to fall under the mandate to purchase insurance from private corporations sooner or later. Most likely sooner. What that means to me, is that I'll be forced to buy medical insurance from a company whose CEO makes 1000 times more than its lowliest mailroom clerk. There's a reason for the disparity in wages... Money flows uphill in this country. Shit rolls downhill, money rolls uphill. Bottom line is that I'm going to be forced to buy insurance from a private corporation, but that purchase in no way guarantees that I'll be able to afford to use it. I have one reconstructed ACL courtesy of the United States Navy, and another due to an injury I suffered while working for a company who (after the US Government decided I was no longer fit for duty) washed their hands of me even though I suffered the injury on the clock. Pretty soon, I'm going to need one, maybe two knee replacements.

But you go on with your bad self, and call anyone who opposes this legislation ignorant. Call them out of control. Call them racists, warmongers, and nut jobs. Call them a scourge, as one would call locusts, who descend upon fruitful land and leave nothing in their wake.

Yes We Can will turn out to be Oh No You Di'nt, and if the fixes don't start happening fast and furious, a lot of people are going to get fucked. In light of recent events, I'm thinking that fucked will come waaaay before fast and furious fixes.

[ibegurpard]

14. read it again

eom

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. Why?

Up until the time I realized that the legislation would pass, I counted myself as an opponent. Once that threshold was passed, I was forced to accept it and shift my tack from opposing it to accepting it and working to make it better.

Maybe you should read his paragraph about those who opposed the bill.

[ibegurpard]

19. He's clearly talking about the Teabaggers

I oppose the bill as much as the OP and I understand that.
If you think this bill is going to get better you're dreaming.

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. At this point, I can only hope and pray that it DOES get better. Its passage is a foregone

conclusion.

I've been called out a hundred times as an Obama hater because I opposed the passage of this bullshit. Now its clear that it will pass tomorrow.

Dreaming that the bill will get better leads to working within the system to make it so. I have no real expectation that any fixes will be visited any time in the near future, but what else is there for someone like me to hold onto knowing that it passes tomorrow other than accepting what is and hoping for what shall be in the future?

[Fading Captain]

37. You misunderstand

The opposition I am talking about as being ignorant is the teabagger brigade.

[Kablooie]

13. Take two asprin and call me in the morning.

[Aramchek]

15. please, fade away...

[Mind_your_head]

21. +1

[The Hope Mobile]

86. - 1 nt

[amborin]

16. K&R

[ProgressOnTheMove]

20. Were there no money in the system single payer would be unstoppable given there is ...

this bill is huge step forward, till it is possible to bring about camapign fianace reform this bill is an achievement. It is what it is.

[obxhead]

23. Well, "Yes we can" is still correct.

We just misunderstood who the "we" were. Now we know.

[bobburgster]

26. They're pulling out all the stops.

The TV news media is displaying a slant, as usual, by focusing on the anti-health care message. They even got Boston's bishop speaking against it....you would think the Catholic Church might be focusing on its own problems....

[Richard Steele]

27. I wish I was as eloquent as you. K&R

[Raine]

29. Wha a revolting development this whole thing is

I'm sick of the "lesser of two evils" both sides totally disgust me. :puke:

[BeFree]

40. Well, you are wrong

You say: "People I agree with and people I respect are supporting this because they believe it is the last hope."

It is not the last 'hope' what it is is a fork. A new fork in the health care path. It is CHANGE.

And you object to everyone paying for health care insurance.
Ask yourself this: if everyone deserves health care, shouldn't we all equally share the costs?

[Naturalist111]

42. You are correct!!!

Better to have a home that needs work than to not have a home at all.

[LibDemAlways]

69. Of course people should share costs. But people should not be

forced by mandate to purchase private insurance from known crooks. That mandate with no public option will be like an albatross around the necks of Dems this November. Do you honestly think people are going to be other than pissed about it?

[Naturalist111]

161. I agree with you

but this is the first step and it is always the hardest.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

43. Nice Bob Pollard screenname n/t

[stillwaiting]

48. You are not alone in feeling this way. There are plenty that feel the same as you.

Myself included.

Where do I go from here? I'm not sure yet.

[Odin2005]

49. I agree completely.

It's like we all agree the system is broken beyond redemption, we just can't agree on why.

[walldude]

50. The lesser of evils... that's it in a nutshell

and not just health care, all politics. The biggest problem these days is the line of "evil" has moved. Now we don't debate whether this bill is going to help "everyone" we settle for "some". We debate the merits of torture, and of CEO's adding gold fixtures to their yachts instead of paying for cancer treatments of 5 year old.

And god forbid you try and go against the grain, try to stand up for what,s right, you get vilified by the people who believe that the lesser of 2 evils is "good". You know, "don't make the perfect the enemy of the good". LOL yeah if this is what people call good I hate to see what they think is bad.

I don't support this bill because I am one of those who will fall right in the racks. This bill is going to hurt me not help. I haven't been with insurance for 8 years, I'd rather go another 8 than be forced to buy something I can't afford to use.

[northernlights]

51. + 1,000,000,000,000,000,000

I just can't wait for the next big reform. ah, wait a minute...yes I can.

[PufPuf23]

52. Agree with you, Don't have a clue on what to do. nt

[ProSense]

53. "this fucking hell hole of a bill "

as you call it is something many Democrats are proud of.

[Fading Captain]

59. Many Democrats are 'proud' of NAFTA

EOM

[ogam5]

123. Pride goeth before a......

......death plunge

[grantcart]

54. Read the bill

[hulka38]

55. I've had to reluctantly come to that conclusion not long ago myself.

It took this health insurance debacle to force me to accept what others had been saying for years. But you have to acknowledge that a problem exists before you can begin to deal with it in a serious way. More and more people are waking up. It's hard for the DLC types and harder still for Republicans. They will not acknowledge the extent to which the corporations have control of the system.

[Cal Carpenter]

57. The facade created by divide and conquer is cracking n/t

[onpatrol98]

80. On This We Agree

I do believe corporate America is winning. While we spend precious time degrading other Americans because their opinions differ, or they're uneducated on the facts we feel we possess, the government (now, it seems whoever is in charge) helps us transfer our wealth from our families to big banks, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, etc.

I think for me...that's the part that sucks the most. We're encouraged to hate each other. Our side hates their side. Their side hates our side. And, then we compare notes on how "hateful" their rhetoric has become.

They cheer for Beck and we cheer for "insert favorite spin master here". And, all the while, our dollars and a bit more of our life force is lost to corporate "wealth" mongers.

I'm beginning to think some slight of hand is taking place. But, they have to keep us occupied.

They have to keep us fighting each other like pit bulls in a drug dealers back yard. And, we obediently bark and bite when they throw us a little red meat.

I think I want off this ride. I don't know what kind of system we have...but it ain't a democracy.

[ChiciB1]

88. Many Want OFF The Ride, But It's Spinning Much Too Fast... You Said

"They cheer for Beck and we cheer for "insert favorite spin master here". And, all the while, our dollars and a bit more of our life force is lost to corporate "wealth" mongers."

AND that IS THE SAD TRUTH! But WHO do we really HAVE to "insert?" WHO do we REALLY HAVE??

[ChiciB1]

90. I Wonder How BIG This Thread Will Get?? There Are Many Names

not included here, who I KNOW feel the same way many of us do. Perhaps the balloon popped, I'm feeling just that way myself. I have some weird things going on in my head right now... maybe cobwebs of the past, don't know!

Guess it's time to bow out for tonight, or tomorrow or a week or two! The "freshness" of the HCR feels like "wilted lettuce" and I kind of feel that way right now too!

Some may drink to drown, some will smoke, and some like me will take a pill and call it a night!

You see, I DO have "pretty good" health care and CAN get some "pretty good" meds and at "pretty good" cost, and some "pretty good" doctors who will see me for what ails me!

But all I really wanted was "pretty good" for all! And who knows how long I'll have "pretty good" for myself in the end!!!
:nopity: :eyes: :crazy: :hurts: and just one more :grr:

[onpatrol98]

108. Good Point

:toast:

[ChiciB1]

141. Aw Gee... I MISSED Who Or What Was Posted From The Deleted Message!

Would have liked to know! Maybe not though, I've seen "nasty" before and it's NOT a pretty picture, still I wonder if it was REALLY all that nasty!!

My suspicions are aroused because of ATTACKS in the past!!

Carry On... I assume we will see more! Oh, sorry maybe shouldn't have said "assume" because you know what THEY say about THAT WORD!

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[northernlights]

60. well I've managed to waste half a day

torn between crying over this piece of shit bill and laughing at exploding freeper heads. :wtf:

Whyohwhyohwhyohwhy didn't I just go food shopping like I planned?

[havocmom]

63. Best analysis of the situation yet

Thank you for sane and accurate post

[Raksha]

67. My sentiments exactly!

Being forced into the same corner with these regressives makes me want to puke.

[rhett o rick]

70. I am getting drunk tonite. Call it celebration or disappointment, I dont care. But I will be back

tomorrow. No days off, ready (with the help of some aspirin and lots of water) to fight again.

[inna]

79. LOL!

:toast:

[icee]

72. I agree with you 100%, Captain. The bill contains some good, but

tremendous bad. The worst: forced to buy insurance from private companies who can raise their rates to whatever they want at will. If that ain't fascism I don't know what is. I'll wait patiently for the "Goshes, it's better than nothing, and we can make it better..." Who can make it better? The Democrat Congress? They have seven months. The President? He has 31 months.

[Richardo]

73. See ya!

:hi:

[varelse]

74. What can I say to this except

you've correctly assessed the situation. Sadly.

[liberalhistorian]

75. Amen, couldn't have said it better.

However, these people would have opposed ANY health care bill, no matter what it said, for their own selfish reasons and because they're being deliberately whipped into a frenzy by hateful nutball pundits. And yet how many of them show Medicare cards when they go in to the doctor? Quite a few, actually, from the looks of their ages. Such hypocrisy is truly breathtaking. "I've got mine because not only I but YOU pay the taxes for it, but fuck you if you want any of it. Just shut up and keep paying for MINE. MINE MINE MINE ME ME ME ME ME.

[krawhitham]

77. The teabaggers and rethugs are not against HCR

They are against anything Obama wants, racism runs deep

[Canuckistanian]

78. It's a real kick in the gut, isn't it?

On the one hand, it's the first time this has been tried for over a hundred years.

On the other, it's such a weak effort, such a capitulation to the forces that have denied HCR for decades.

I wouldn't laud this as a milestone in American history. It really isn't.

[stuart68]

82. This demonstrates a complete lack of leadership

The President of the US is THE most powerful person in the world. He has the ability to rally the American people.

Get all parties to eliminate all "deals"
Establish a baseline, ie, universal coverage, not pre-existing conditions, etc
Put everyone on notice and get it done

this would require someone who is more interested in doing the right thing than protecting his ability to get re-elected.

So, flame away. Tell me I don;t understand politics. Tell me it is not that simple. Sorry, but it is. Obama has exhibited no leadership in letting Congress turn this into a complete cluster.

So now we'll have something just a littler better that terrible. How much dog crap does it take to ruin your soup - a lot or a little ?

[Lorien]

133. He got exactly what he wanted

He didn't want anyone to even mention single payer and he had no intention of giving us a public option. This was the bill that he had tailor made. This is the bill that he finally decided to 'fight" for. He is a very effective leader for the insurance companies and Wall st. investors (let's watch that market tomorrow!) but, not so much for the rest of us.

[lordsummerisle]

89. K&R, I agree completely n/t

[Barack_America]

91. All I can say is +1...

...I can't even bear to follow the fate of this sham "reform" any longer.

And, as my screen name suggests, I am one who once held great hope for the true reform that might have been.

[TankLV]

92. I understand your point. But this is necessary and JUST A BEGINNING.

I wanted SINGLE PAYER.

I wanted AUTOMATIC HEALTH- CARE - FOR ALL - not mandatory participation for the INSURANCE IND!USTRY CROOKS!

But this is the process.

This is what is a FIRST STEP!

This will be a GOOD thing for Obama, the Democrats and as a result - the COUNTRY.

THIS STOPS THE REPUKES - COLD!

THAT IS WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT!

Keep your eyes on the prize - don't ever give up!

Now put your passion to SINGLE PAYER and GETTING RID OF Health INSURANCE Companies ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!

[Amonester]

116. How do we get rid of the insurance death panels after having given them

a captive citizenry for a 'little' trillion+ 'trickling-down' into politicians pockets?

beep...beep...beep....not compute...beep...beep

It's like that 'public financing unrealistic dream'... is it not?

[bertman]

93. Excellent rant, Captain. I don't think you've faded very much, judging from your OP. REC.

[Political Heretic]

94. "The Bill isn't a last hope... its giving up hope." - powerful, sad and true.

:(

But its done. God help us all.

[dem mba]

96. now health insurance is like auto insurance

and you're mandated to have it. wow, my life is totally upended now.

if both the left and the right hate this bill, my guess is that's it's going to be "ok" for the American people, in the aggregate. some people may get screwed by it. most will probably benefit. but i think it will end up as a net positive.

politically, its a victory but that's not much consolation for most of us. a public option would have been a vast, vast improvement. sigh, maybe in another 20-40 years...

[Lorien]

131. It just costs 10x more, comes with a 10k deductible and doesn't pay claims. nt

[Faryn Balyncd]

99. You nailed it.

[defendandprotect]

105. Notice that Trumka also caved . . .

In other words, if liberals/progressives were thrown under the bus by Obama,

they are going centrist to hold onto what they still have !!!???

[MrMickeysMom]

111. Yeah, it is a clusterfuck...

... and now that this cluster fuck of a "insurance plan" has passed, we are in that interesting position to see how the University of Chicago centrist leaders pull it off to "make it even better". After all, a promise is a promise.

Next up - Really, really getting out of Afghanistan right after the last boots leave Iraq.

[ogam5]

119. In absolutely complete agreement......

I couldn't agree more with what you said, Captain; as a progressive-minded reformist, I registered Independent for the last time a month ago after reliably voting Democrat for almost 30 years.....I am for TRUE health reform that would, above all else, staunchly protect our freedom to make choices without interference from ANYONE, whether it be D.C. (and ESPECIALLY the FDA, which I want reduced to a mere advisory, rather than regulatory, role concerning supplements) brain-dead medical know-it-alls with insufferable God complexes and so forth. For almost 13 years I have used alternative medicine with inarguably good results since it first saved my life in 1997, and if the McCain-Dorgan bill passes, it will be another declaration of war on me and I WILL take steps to defend my right, because I don't believe there is anyone who will ever protect me otherwise from such self-serving tyranny - McCain-Dorgan is more proof that NEITHER of these parties can legitimately claim to love freedom above all else or lay claim to the moral high ground.....

This federal health insurance mandate is, without question, the most thoroughly despotic act in American history and I have NEVER been more ashamed of my country than I am tonight, but so many of these overeducated zealots really know not what is they've done - they're utterly incapable of recognizing their raging hypocrisy while taking every opportunity to portray themselves as pro-choice where abortion is concerned, but safeguard MY right to choose? And deny the pharmaceutical industry and insurance companies their cut of whatever wages I can eke out in this anemic economy? Hell no, apparently. If Dennis Kucinich had any real backbone, he would've told Obama what he could do with this obscenity but, of course, he caved and subsequently parroted the unbearably pat party line I've heard from SO many MA state officials: "It's not perfect, but it's better than doing nothing".

I fought the mandate up here for almost 3 years and one huge reason the infernal thing passed (without ANY prior public advice, clearly violating the state constitution in that way alone) is the multitude of sleeping beauties that just didn't have the intellectual curiosity to investigate further - to say nothing of the gutless wonders who just rolled over or even carried water for the Connector, Martha Coakley chief among them.....I will be GodDAMNED before I ever comply with their unilateral edict - they can just TRY to put me in prison and I'll invoke the Defense of Religion clause. But one thing is clear: we are now officially in Hell and the so-called 'land of the free' is a fast-fading memory.

[Lorien]

124. Welcome to DU ogam5!

:hi:

The corporate takeover is complete. Half the people here are cheering and will gleefully dance on our graves when we STILL can't get access to health care four years from now. But tonight they have their symbolic win over the away team, and that's all that really matters. Even with a super majority we could get nothing meaningful. We are indeed officially in Hell.

[inna]

126. Welcome to DU, Ogam5!

:hi:

Are you in MA? Apparently, this legislation is very similar to Romney Care. I've been curious for months what people in MA actually think about their mandated/subsidized health insurance; apparently, most people are less than thrilled.

It's very interesting to hear your perspective, anyway.

[ogam5]

136. Thanks, Inna!

In answer to your question, yes, I am in MA - for the time being; will likely be out of here not long after my mother's gone:( Possibly to CT, which has gotten much more progressive than the Bay State under Jodi Rell - a REPUBLICAN - much as I thought I'd never live to see the day).

In fact, it was my distinct displeasure to be cursed with one of the three authors of our little monster as a state representative, and we had QUITE the little fight over it - did not mince words at ALL and I basically consigned him to a fiery fate for his part.....there are a lot of us - probably about 10-20 thousand at most, though - who were adamantly opposed to Chapter 58 but the numbers are growing if the recent election is a reliable indicator. I flat-out DETEST Romney - oilier than Geedub, if that's possible - and viewed Brown as a clone (especially since he was full on board the mandate train) but while so many voters in MA were fooled into thinking Scott was against the state mandate, he HAS bucked a couple of Republican positions now - admittedly, nothing radical or anything - so I'm refraining from complete condemnation.....

Couldn't ever have voted for Coakley despite her support of the same-sex marriage law given her vow to attack anyone who attacked the Connector and, had Mike Capuano been firmly against the federal mandate, I might've voted for him (certainly NOT Pagliuca) but he never bothered to contact me directly anyhow, which says a lot about the party's presumptive tendencies. I'm actually about to take the religious exemption available up here on our state tax forms for a 3rd straight year and will be an active part of any fight to create more loosely-applied religious exemptive provisions at the federal level.....

[Nikki Stone1]

120. Well said

.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PBass]

132. You're wrong... the bill prevents denying coverage to children

and that starts immediately.

[Lorien]

134. Insurance "coverage" or paying out claims?

We'll see about that, but I've battled those insurance fuckers for decades over claims and they never back down without a legal battle. I seriously doubt that there is anything in this bill that will FORCE them to pay out claims without an extended fight.

[PBass]

138. What do you mean, "We'll see about that"?

You just ripped into the bill because you're claiming that kids will get denied coverage.

Now "we'll see about that"?

Please, get ahold of yourself. Complain all you want about VALID problems with the bill. But you don't need to make up bulls**t reasons to be against it.

[Marr]

135. It's not about insurance. For the ten thousandth time,

health insurance is not health *care*.

I pay for insurance. I can't get health care. Or rather, I can only get the health care that I can pay for out of pocket, with the money I have left after paying my insurance premiums. I've had to visit the doctor several times this year to manage a precancerous condition, and so far my insurance company has refused to pay for a single cent.

If it weren't for the prospect of it turning into some kind of massive health problem that I could never ever afford to pay for, I'd cancel my insurance right now and use the money to see the doctor the recommended once a month, rather than once every three or four months. Of course, they'll probably just drop me if that happens anyway.

The health insurance companies are the problem. They drive up costs and have every incentive to deny payment.

[ogam5]

137. So exactly why IS it then, Marr,

that we're being assaulted with a health INSURANCE, as opposed to a health CARE, mandate? Somebody really should ask the cretins responsible for ramming this bill down our throats that question. Don't get me WRONG; I agree with you that the insurance companies are certainly ONE of the problems, but add to that the FDA, AMA, pharmaceutical industry and sprawling hospital associations.....I am sending out genuine hopes that your condition proves to be very manageable if not benign.....

[Marr]

139. Thank you-- I appreciate the thought.

And yep-- somewhere along the line this thing very stealthily changed from, "how do we make sure everyone can get healthcare?" to "how do make sure everyone has a private insurance policy?". The answers to those questions lie in opposite directions. This thing seems like a repeat of the bank bailout to me-- just more saving the problem industries from themselves.

[grahamhgreen]

125. Yes. The selfishness is legend.

[Marr]

130. I'm in exactly the same boat. Well said. n/t

[Toasterlad]

146. Sadly Agree.

We're all corporate slaves. iPhones and American Idol for everyone!

[Mari333]

148. knr knr knr

[anigbrowl]

149. Jeez louise. Even if we had 100% socialized health care you'd be forced to pay for it.

It's called taxation. I come from a country with fully socialized health care. Not only does the government handle the payments, they own and operate most of the hospitals. I've worked inthis system. My sister still works in. My dad used to run about about 25% of the hospitals in the country until he retired. I wouldn't say I'm super-expert on this, but I consider myself pretty well informed.

YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY. The only monetary difference is that your payment is withheld in the form of income tax. It's not free. doctors and nurses don't work for free, medical equipment costs a lot of money, medical supplies are not cheap either.

So we have to buy health insurance under this bill. On the other hand, there are subsidies for people who are poor. this is pretty much the same thing that happens with income taxes for the vast majority of people. It's not a perfect solution, by any means. On the other hand, if you were EVER thinking that we could pay for it with some sort of special tax on rich people, you were living in a fantasy. I've lived & worked in 5 different European countries but the one thing they all have in common is that the costs of healthcare are spread across the population as a whole. Also, European healthcare workers in different countries are perennially unhappy and they go on strike quite often, which sucks if you were expecting to get any medical treatment on that particular day and have to reschedule.

What the hell were you expecting?! That money was going to fall out of the sky and magically finance healthcare costs forever? That doctors, Nurses, ambulance drivers and everyone else who works in or supplies the healthcare industry were suddenly going to dedicate their lives to curing people but stop accepting payment for their services? that the laws of arithmetic and accounting would suddenly be suspended by an act of congress?

there's a ton of things wrong with this healthcare bill...excuse me, law. It's going to take a long long time to fix it and get it performing as well as possible for the largest possible number of people. even with the best of intentions things will go wrong on a regular basis and everyone will blame the government for years to come.

But the reality is that it imposes a lot of new regulations on insurance companies which they were not subject to before, and that there's no such thing as a free lunch, so that whether it's private insurance or public income tax, you money to cover your possible medical expenses as well as to help cover the cost of other people's medical expenses.

Should people keep working to improve this country's healthcare, making it more efficient and more fair and more accessible? Yes. Is it going to take a long time? Yes. Will some people make a lot of money, partly financed by your money even though you don't see any direct benefit? Yes. Does every country with socialized medicine have similar problems? YES, YES, YES.

End your damn pity party and live in the real world. you do not have a bulletproof health plan but you have quite a bit more economic and medical security security over the long term than you did 24 hours ago. Improving on this legislation is going to take time and effort. The same way it took and effort in every other country with a decent healthcare system, as in years and years and years to go from the idea to the reality.

[Fading Captain]

150. Don't be stupid, There's a MAJOR difference

In what the democrats have passed and socialized medicine.

I lived in Canada for 30 years. We all paid, in taxes, for each other's insurance.
And that was A-OK with me and most of my neighbors, because there was no insurance company taking a cut off the top.

[anigbrowl]

152. Then what are you upset about

That someone else will make money by providing a service as an intermediary? I have no problem at all with that as long as they do a decent job. That's how healthcare works in the Netherlands and it's OK - not too expensive, fairly reliable, not much hassle if you get sick (I lived there for 2 years and trust me, you could do a lot worse). Are we there yet? No, but we're on our way and closer than yesterday.

As far as I'm concerned, regulating insurance companies just got about 100x easier because now every health care plan they offer is subject to congressional oversight and Congress gets a lot more scrutiny by the public than most state legislatures or insurance commissions.

[inna]

156. Another fail.

Private insurers in countries with Universal Health Care (i.e., everywhere else in the civilized world except the U.S.) are highly regulated and NON-profit. (The only exception is some supplemental, elective programs such as cosmetic surgery etc.)

[anigbrowl]

158. Unlike you, I checked my facts first

Perhaps you missed the part where I mentioned that I'd spent about 2 years living in the Netherlands. I have had first-hand experience of their system. It has changed a bit since I was there, but in a nutshell you can get healthcare for about $125-175/month in direct costs, you can optionally choose a lower premium but a higher copay (or not), and since insurance is mandatory the government has decreed that prices from a given must be the same for everyone at a given company, although policy prices can vary somewhat between companies. There are subsidies for the poor, and overall approximately 60% of health insurance costs are paid by the government (out of taxes) and 40% paid directly by individuals to the company in question.

Incidentally, I expressed the desire that such companies should be highly regulated in an American health insurance market too; it's clear that if they're not they'll cheerfully engage in price gouging. However, highly regulated doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't be allowed to make a profit. I can live with that as long as they deliver on their promises to consumers.

As it happens, the regulation of private health insurance is quite variable across the EU. As for your contention that all private insurance is non-profit (not just cosmetic stuff, but actual illness-and-injury type treatment), this is just not correct. Many organizations, such as BUPA which is based in the UK, are indeed non-profit; but there are also for-profit private insurance companies that offer health coverage and there is no legal requirement for any such company to be non-profit.

http://www.euro.who.int/document/Obs/EuroObserver6_1.pdf
http://www.minvws.nl/en/folders/z/2008/compulsory-health-insurance-if-you-work-in-the-netherlands.asp You can start here (official govt. site) for information about Dutch health insurance - you'll need to use google translate or something to navigate most Dutch websites, although some are also available in English.
http://www.zn.nl/international/aboutzn/index.asp Some general information from the Dutch healthcare insurance industry association, including code of conduct and suchlike. It's in English.

I mean, maybe you think they should all be non-profit, but the reality is that they're not. They're still quite good companies despite that in most cases. The two best-known Dutch health insurers are Eureko and Interpolis. A lot of banks offer this kind of service as well through a subsidiary company or business partner.

[ibegurpard]

151. you think there's no difference between health insurance...

...and government funded healthcare?
no one is expecting free healthcare...everyone who wants universal single payer understands taxes will have to go up to pay for it.

[anigbrowl]

153. You know, if I thought that I would have written that.

I think I made it pretty clear that I consider this legislation a good start, not an end in itself.

[inna]

154. Conflating taxation with mandates is misdirected and unhelpful.

Taxation/public funding/socialized health care is hugely preferable to massively regressive individual mandates to buy a defective and absurdly overpriced "product" from a for-profit parasitic cartel.

:shrug:

[anigbrowl]

155. It seems to work OK for the Dutch

I'm not against it as long as the companies in question are properly regulated - see my reply above for some more detail. I mean yeah, when you load your view of it with negative adjectives and assume the worst, sure it sounds good. But I don't necessarily agree that that's a foregone conclusion.

[besdayz]

157. option

i really wonder what portion of people who are against the mandate to buy insurance were opposed to the public option?


those seem to be the 2 main means to tackle the problem....let the govt cover it or make people get it.....