If you are against THIS HCR bill, maybe it's because you want a BETTER ONE

[NightWatcher]

Maybe it's not because you hate America, but maybe because you want one that includes Medicare of All, single payer, or public options instead of one that is an immediate hand out to the Big Insurance and Big Pharma Corporations.

Maybe we love America too, maybe we care about those of us who are not fortunate enough to afford the current plans or fortunate enough to have worked for a good employer or under a Union contract.

Maybe we are holding out for our principles.

[Warpy]

1. We ALL want something better

but this one contains enough real reform to alarm the insurance industry and so I want it passed.

[NightWatcher]

"reform and alarm", I thought it guaranteed millions of new customers for them

[Karmadillo]

8. They're alarmed they won't know what to do with all that loot?

nt

[pampango]

33. They oppose it (millions on ads, unanimous repub opposition) because they want a "better" bill.

You seem to oppose it because you want a "better" bill. While your "better" is nothing like their better, if you and the HIC's unite to kill this bill, it will be because you both expect something "better" in the future. Both of you cannot be right, and my guess is that they will have the momentum after if this is defeated.

[Warpy]

77. Yeah, customers they won't be able to fleece

and the type of customers they won't make any money off.

They'll get all the old crocks like me they presently refuse to insure at any cost.

[rpannier]

137. They can still refuse you

They would risk a fine, but if the company decides it's more cost effective to pay the fine that's what they'll do

[AllyCat]

198. In 4 years.

[pnwmom]

43. Well said. n/t

[pattmarty]

177. If you think that, watch the insurance stocks this week. Up, up they go!

So as their stock prices increase, I am sure they will be really really pissed.:sarcasm:

[polpilot]

207. Obame: 'Because of you every American will finally be guaranteed high quality, affordable healthcare

My response: 'Unsubscribe' Change I can believe in. Good-bye 'Organizing for America' and good luck!!

[AnOhioan]

2. Clap, clap, clap K&R

[Bicoastal]

3. But how long are you willing to wait for that?

How many more election cycles? How many more congresses? How many more presidents? How many more years while so many people need help right NOW?

[LynneSin]

23. +1

I like alot of what this bill does although I know it's not perfect. My nephew, who works 3 jobs and risking life without insurance can go back on his parents plan (which he has said he would pay for his share - alot cheaper than buying it directly himself.

And my parents now have a fix on that donut hole which will help make their prescriptions more affordable.

And I don't have to worry if some condition I have had already can be used as an excuse should something bad happen to me.

Is this the best bill possible - oh hell no.

But it's a good start. We need to start somewhere.

[Dappleganger]

39. Well said. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

135. Only it's not a start - it's the end.

There won't be ANYTHING to improve on this for another 25 years. The anti-goverment types will fight any improvement, while the corporatists will say "We PASSED a bill - whadaya want from us?!"

And if you don't think the industry lawyers are going to wring every possible penny out of their 30 million new customers, you have no idea who you are doing battle with.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truedelphi]

149. And the President has already stated his major talking point:

"I want to be the last President that has to deal with the health care crisis." I have the feeling that any efforts to push for changed will be met with the typical WH reaction of "We are forward looking, and not looking back."

I really beleive it is over. The Big Insurers got what they wanted, while a few crumbs were thrown to most people. For some, there might really be a pony hidden somewhere in the foot high document, and for those people I am glad.

[inna]

156. The exact quote:

I am not the first President to take up this cause, but I am determined to be the last. (Applause.)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/09/politics/main5299229.shtml

[truedelphi]

158. By itself it is not that scary, but combined with all the other times

This Administration has talked about putting this issue or that issue behind us, I feel it aptly describes his next move: "History has been made. Now let's move on to FILL IN THE BLANK WITH NEW URGENT PROBLEM."

Republicans are already revved up for Social Security "reform," so perhaps within a week, we will start hearing endless stories about reforming Social Security now -- the sooner the better, and nothing else will divert them from THAT task.

(And thanks for the exact quote.)

[liberation]

205. The doublethink from the Obama administration is a sight to behold...

... they want to "finish" health care reform, while at the same time claiming it will be a "work in progress."

[truedelphi]

217. At times I do believe that Obama is channeling

Orwell's ghost.

Said it before, will say it again - if there was a real media to parse this man's statements, we wouldn't be in the "fix" we are in.

[defendandprotect]

216. It's the private deals that have hurt ... with insurance companies and Big Pharma . . .

Most of this year has been pretense in view of Obama's promise to insurance companies!

'NO GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM' --!!


Remember Cheney's private deals with Energy Industry? The disdain?

Evidently if you have a "D" after your name, you're on hallowed ground!

Remember Enron?

[Democat]

170. Not sure what the anti-bill Democrats expect?

We can either take a step in the right direction, or stand where we've been forever and let the Obama presidency go down the drain.

At least something is happening, even if it's not perfect.

I can't understand the dreamers on our side who want to defeat this because they think they're going to get a better bill. When? Before the Democrats get their asses kicked in November? Not likely. After the Republicans retake the Senate or Congress? No way. So when?

At least Obama made progress on the issue and the Republicans lost. Lets be happy for that.

[pattmarty]

179. It is strictly a very short term political victory. It is so short that it will.........

...........not carry over to the Nov elections. I am not sure if the Dems will lose one or both houses, but they definitely lose a lot of seats in both.

[pokercat999]

195. Had they passed single payer they would have assured

their majority in congress for the next forty years!

[daleanime]

191. Is it a dream that most americans are with us?

In spite of all the media spin,

In spite of the millions(did it reach billions?) spent against us,

In spite of leadership that NEVER wanted to include us,

That's not a dream, that's a nightmare and an admission that the corporations control this nation and it's people.

[pattmarty]

178. For fucks sake, we "waited" since 1948. We DESERVE a better.........

............bill than this piece of shit.

[defendandprotect]

214. Ending pre-existing conditions could be done NOW . . .

So could ending life time caps NOW ...

So could including children up to age 25 ...

These things didn't need 2500 pages to accomplish --

Simple votes -- majority rule.


The rest of it, who knows -- I certainly hope there is some help in there for someone.

Election cycles? Remember, the GOP gets two more shots at this 2010 and 2012!!

And, imagine them with control over this insurance/Big Pharma give-away!!!


This is strictly a win for corporations/lobbyists and DLC/Corporate-Democrats --

And, while not much is being made of it, certainly another right wing slam on women --

[sandnsea]

4. Well you're not getting that. So now what. n/t

[berni_mccoy]

5. If this bill dies, you won't see another attempt at HCR in our lifetime. That is the reality of it.

[TransitJohn]

6. It's nice you've got the time machine.

When do we get our flying cars?

[harmonicon]

118. I expect the flying cars to be in showrooms on January 1st, 2000 (nt)

[Art_from_Ark]

166. Greyhound ads in National Geographic magazines of the 1940s

predicted there would be widely available public helicopter service, maybe by the 1950s.

[harmonicon]

200. by the 1980's mail will be delivered by rockets.

... or so an ad in one of my dad's Popular Mechanics magazines from the 50's told me.

[CountAllVotes]

7. that is likely true

sad yes, true yes.

:kick:

[Donnachaidh]

14. Baloney -- that'a a talking point brought to you by the folks who make backroom deals

that fail.

Do you really think the public is going to sit back and do nothing either way? If this gets through there will be a shitstorm of lawsuits, and endless amounts of pushing to get the bad shit fixed.

If it fails then our *reps* will be forced to do something REAL for the public. That doesn't include lining campaign coffers.

[pampango]

36. Oh yeah, the 178 republicans, 54 Blue Dogs (I sense a majority already) plus various other

conservative and moderate Democrats who tremble when someone yells "socialized medicine" are going to rebound from a defeat here and demand single-payer or a National Health Service. Not to mention that repubs are very likely to pick up seats this November due to the economy, if nothing else, so the numbers will be even worse in 2011 than they are now. Given the number of repubs and Blue Dogs, I shudder to think what "real something" they will do for us.

[CountAllVotes]

65. never in my life have I seen it come this close

and I doubt I'll ever see it again. It failed when Clinton tried, it failed when Truman presented it. It failed with Theodore Roosevelt suggested it.

These are not "talking points". This IS reality!

:dem:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

10. You keep posting that over and over. What leads you to believe it's true?

Dial it back a little, berni. It's still very early.

[Donnachaidh]

15. it's all he's got. n/t

[Juche]

160. The fact that with the biggest majorities in decades, the bill still barely passed

Do you see the dems having 60 senate seats and about 260 house seats as well as the white house anytime again in the near future? It isn't happening.

The GOP is becoming more and more radical. So they will obstruct everything. This was probably the only chance in a long time to get reform.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

18. No, the reality is, a very bad bill is going to be passed just like the

banking bill was passed. It will put tons of money into the hands of big Pharma and health insurance companies and will drain away money from many Americans. Yes, there will be some people who will benefit from it but right now, from what I can tell, even with the help of subsidies to purchase insurance, people are not going to be able to pay the co-pays or meet the deductibles without loans.

BTW...I have heard you say flippantly for the poor there is medicaid. Well there are all types of poor. My income is very low but I own half of my home. In NYS, to qualify for Medicaid, they would place a lien on my home after I died. Lovely......

[Stellar]

113. That Lien on the house is nothing new.

That's been the practice for many years with the state. Some millionaires would think they're poor just because they're no longer earning a million dollars a year...maybe just 300 thousand and they're 'poor'. Speaking of all types of poor, where would *you* draw the line at being poor?

You have a problem with money that company's would get, like the rest of us. But mostly I have a problem with the life and care of people. Ideally we could get a PO/SP soon in a perfect world. But that ain't today.

[eilen]

173. That happened to my Mom when she had us on AFDC/Medicaid

while my father took a powder on paying child support and for anything else for a year (he had important things to do like vacationing in Bermuda and remarrying). They took a piece of our house when she sold it. The Family Court denied her petition for compensation from my father.
The AFDC that year did get me and my brother hooked up with the Big Brother/Big Sister program, speech therapy for me and in school tutoring-- unless those were totally coincidental during that year (which I doubt)-- in addition to some food stamps, the school lunch program and medical attention/lead testing (we lived in an old house).

We were actually eating gruel (Cream of Wheat) every morning... for all those teabaggers upset a couple of children weren't "paying their own way." There happened to be no children's workhouses in USA at that time. What can I say, it was the early 1970's, the beginning of the end of opportunity in America; lots of other jobs left after that too.

[Marr]

29. No, that's the talking point. What else do you have?

I can wait while you check your fax machine.

[dflprincess]

34. If this bill passes we won't see another attempt for years

because "our" elected officials will consider the issue closed.

In a few years, when it becomes obvious to the public how badly they were taken in this insurance scam a few Congresspeople may start to mention it but it won't be until the insurance companies have bled every last dime they can get out of us that we'll see real reform.

If this doesn't pass, it will take less time for the insurance companies to price themselves out of business and then we might actually get a bill that would give us access to care, not "coverage".

[stillwaiting]

37. I agree. Passing this bill will prevent any attempt in the next few decades of making

changes that might actually be good for the majority of Americans.

[harmonicon]

123. seconded

This is just one more big push down the hill towards the US becoming a third world country. It's already out of the running to be among the best in the world - right now it's second tier. In the coming decades while nothing more is being done about this, the second tier countries will institute good healthcare systems, and the US will have absolutely nothing to show for its hundred years of dominance.

[Lorien]

57. Yeah, right. That's the DLC meme on the matter, but where is it written that we

aren't ALLOWED to push through another bill, say, next year? And if we won't see another "attempt in our lifetimes" then you better DAMN WELL make sure that YOUR bill is the very best that anyone can come up with!

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. As much as I want single payer now

show me a whip count...

Thank you.

This is not a DLC meme... I am far from DLC... But I know US History. Keep agitating, keep engaged... and be a tick on your congress critter's side... or this will be the end of it.

[Lorien]

106. And yet Obama can get tough and twist arms for the bill that HE wanted

the votes would have been there if team Obama wanted them, but they were the roadblock to single payer, not it's champion.

Where there's a will there's a way. Their will wasn't with us, however.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. As much as Johnson agitated for the two

stinkers of his age that got better over the course of years and decades.

That is what they had...

And as much as FDR agitated for the stinker of his age.

None of those were that stellar when first passed...

This is where whip counts come in. There is what I wish we had and then there is what realistically we can get at that moment in history. Whip counts... remember that.

[Sebastian Doyle]

144. Johnson and FDR didn't have a DLC house of prostitution for a Congress

If FDR had one, we'd all be speaking German right now. Upside is we would have better built cars and faster freeways, but life would pretty much suck if you were Jewish. Or gay. Or probably anything other than "Aryan".

[pattmarty]

185. Oh, puhleeeeze. All three were great when passed, so there is no...........

.......comparision to "shit".

[pattmarty]

182. They HAD the votes in the Senate with the reconciliation that they.............

...............said a few months ago they WOULD NOT use. Well they did to pass this crap. So if they passed shit with 51, why not a public option with 51? Now we have a privatized healthcare system that has been institutionalized by DEMOCRATS. Great huh? It's a Republican's wet dream.

[verges]

59. I disagree with this, Unless

you are over 70 or planning on croaking soon. If this bill fails, it will have to be tried again in no longer than 10 years. The long-term damage to the overall economy will be catastrophic! As premiums go up, more and more people will be unable to afford HC. And those that will be able to continue to afford it will end up paying a much larger percentage of their take home income. Fewer small businesses will be able to affoed HC. The percentage of uninsured will go up dramatically If it's 40 milion now, in 10 years it could shoot up to 60-65 million (it won't increase in a straight line, it will be a sharp curve). And with that many more people uninsured, the 45,000 a year who die will go up also. This will be re-addressed sooner rather than later if this fails.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

67. -->

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7971081&mesg_id=7971311

[earth mom]

80. So that's how you justify the most massive rip off of the american people ever seen?

:wtf:

[sabrina 1]

110. Not as long as we have a party that won't fight

for the people. But we can change that by supporting only real Democrats from now on. At least we learned who is for the people and who is for the corporations from this process.

Another thing I learned is what kind of questions to ask candidates from now on. Like 'who will you have in your cabinet'?

On to finding out who is up for re-election who opposed the P.O. and start working to send them home.

There IS a lesson to be learned from every defeat, and this bill is a defeat for the American people. Putting those lessons to good use, we can get some real change and the same people who put this party in power, can direct their considerable skills to candidates that are worth effort, remembering never to fall for slogans again, and to go with feelings of misgiving, such as when a Democrat says their favorite presidents include one of the worst Republicans in recent times. Wish I had gone with my initial reaction to that. But, as I said, a lesson learned.

[DRoseDARs]

157. If you were born sometime after the Clinton Administration, that might seem true.

Those of us born before then? Well, this was the second attempt in our lifetimes. It was the third if you were around for the inception of Medicare in 1965. And never mind all the little tweaks done here and there to the whole system of health care in the US in the intervening years.

[HughMoran]

11. We all want better things

We all make compromises in our lives.

It's simple, common sense.

[earth mom]

81. This isn't compromise. It is rape. nt

[harmonicon]

124. that can be a kind of compromise...

say, party 1 says "I'm going to rape and murder you" and party 2 says "but I don't want to be raped and murdered", so party 1 says "Ok, just the rape ... for now". See - compromise!!

[Chisox08]

127. Real Change doesn't come from Bipartisanship nor compromise

The Dems should have acted like Republicans and rammed HCR down the Republicans throats like they did for every piece of crap they rammed down the throats of the Dems for the last 8 years, while telling them to go fuck themselves if they didn't like it.

[pattmarty]

Agree, EXCEPT this was not compromise, it was a sell out, plain and simple.

[Zen Democrat]

12. Maybe there's ONLY a chance that will eventually happen if this bill passes.

Maybe killing this bill will be a death sentence for increasing thousands of people each year.

I strongly support single-payer, but I believe the only way we'll get there is by kicking the door open THIS time.

[laughingliberal]

22. I don't think the door we're kicking open is the one to the room where a future single payer system

lives. Or even the room where a highly regulated private/public partnership exists. Nevertheless, looks like we'll be stuck with it. Wonder how many years before the problems it creates for people will reach a big enough crisis so we can talk about fixing it?

[treestar]

47. Of course it is

It attempts to cover everyone, which the right has been against for years. The right would only be too happy to have nothing pass!

[laughingliberal]

54. Just because the right opposes it does not prove it will lead to single payer

or even a highly regulated private/public system. I do hope we see all those who have pushed for passage lobbying their legislators for the 'fixes' we have been told will be forthcoming.

My suspicion is we will see a big victory party and that will be the end of it and we'll be stuck with this until things reach crisis proportions again.

[pattmarty]

187. Ding, ding, ding!!!!!!!!!!

[glowing]

71. I'm not sure.. They are so powerful now and so entrenched.. I only wonder

what happens when they are subsidized by govt directly and have the entire country mandated to buy from them.. I don't think its going to be easier to get the Public Option.. Maybe if we all worked extremely hard to get people who are Progressive Dems instead of Dems like Stupak

[OhioChick]

13. Agreed and Well Said n/t

[leeroysphitz]

16. Someone in another thread said this was the best bill we coul make in our lifetimes.

Isn't that a depressing thing to think?

[dflprincess]

35. It wasn't the best bill that COULD be done

it was the only bill most of Congress and Obama were willing to do. They have to answer to their corporate masters and what the people want or need come after that.

[LynneSin]

17. I love the "all or none" mentality. Screw those who will be helped now when this passes

and let's just close our minds over the concept that this is the first step in a long process of redefining health care in this country.

[TransitJohn]

27. Fuckin' A! Screw who is helped by this travesty!

Yeah sure, some of the poverty stricken in this country who geniunely need help might get a modicum of better access to health care delivery, but that is by far outweighed by who makes out like bandits and is really helped, the insurance companies. All this wretched concoction does is further entrench the profit-hungry beast, giving it more and longer life than it would have had if we kept the system which is currently in place. I'd rather have the system currently in place continue, as it would hasten the coming of true, rational, health care delivery, without a gluttonous, greedy, malevolent beast feeding on the dollars from my pocket I wish to spend on health care providers.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TransitJohn]

50. If by fucked up priorities

you mean that I wish doctors to treat patients more readily, then yeah, I guess, although I'm confused as to how that's fucked up. You don't think that it'd be better for your friends to have easier access to their doctors at a more reasonable cost? This is a shitty start that unnecessarily prolongs your friends difficulty.

[misanthrope]

68. And I'll bet you know even more who will be hurt by it however...

...most of you don't realize it yet.

Paying an insurance premium is not the equivalent of access to health care.

[treestar]

45. It does not "further entrench" them

That's just a silly talking point, too! There's no proof of that. It's delusional to think they want this.

Your first two sentences appall me - those thousands are not as important as hating a type of business entity.

[Marr]

74. Of course it does. I don't see how anyone could deny that.

If using the law to mandate that people buy a product is not entrenching an industry, then nothing is. This bill makes the insurance industry the official hub for health care.

[liberation]

203. Exactly!

I am tired of being "lectured" on matters of humane compassion, by the same tools who think people's health care should be a profit proposition for private insurers.

Talk about runaway double think...

[bvar22]

91. One Trillion Dollars of Public Money handed over to the parasitic...

Health Insurance Industry will NOT make them stronger?

At least when they gave Wall Street Millionaires their Trillion Dollars, the said they has to pay it back.

[Raineyb]

58. As opposed to your attitude of "Screw those that are fucked by this bill"

They can go to hell right?

[ScreamingMeemie]

122. Here's the thing Lynne... my daughter is helped by this bill. Yay, Nicole!

Only she's not because she qualifies for insurance under her mother, who is currently uninsured because she is "high risk" and cannot afford the Texas high risk pool with or without subsidies/tax breaks. So boo Nicole. Shame on you for being born into the wrong family.

This is the trouble some are having. I am glad for friends' children...it doesn't mean I have to be happy about the bill.

[harmonicon]

129. it's not "all or none", it's "I don't want to be fucked over, god damn it!!"

No fucking way am I going to be forced to buy into some bullshit private insurance plan. My opposition to this isn't because I want MORE, it's because I DON'T WANT THIS. I, and many others, think this bill is poison for our livelihoods and our country.

"First step," my ass - no one is seriously suggesting this is a first step - this is closing a door on the hopes and prayers of millions who what's best for themselves, their families, and their countrymen.

[951-Riverside]

162. LynneSin, you would agree that Iraq is a free-er place with Saddam gone, right?

Screw the thousands lives lost over lies and a worthless cause, look at the bigger picture is what I say. :eyes: :sarcasm:

...see what I'm getting at?

[LynneSin]

193. Wow, just wow - comparing the Iraq war to Healthcare Reform....

Here's some straws for you to grasp

:crazy:

[madamesilverspurs]

19. And maybe

a door that is slightly opened is easier to open fully than one that is permanently closed and locked.

--

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. Just like NAFTA and the Patriot Act?

[treestar]

49. Or like medicaid/care and social security.

that one is pointless.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

Except medicaid/medicare and social security were created in different times and in fact

there is a bi-partisan commission being put together by President Obama to scrutinize those programs.

[Pithlet]

20. Do you think that those of us that want it to pass don't?

Hardly. It's because we know that the chances of something better happening if this doesn't pass happening any time soon are slim to none. That's really what I don't get in a lot of the arguments. A lot of people wanting it to die scoff at the notion of this one getting fixed. If you have so little faith in that, how on earth do you expect something better to spring out of nothing in the near future? No. This has to happen. It absolutely has to. It's our only hope of getting any change in the near future. This is our shot at reform. This is it. It's far from what I wanted. But this is it.

[LynneSin]

32. Pith you and I have been here at DU long enough to know that for some DUers it's all or nothing

Some folks would rather suffer without then to have something that helps but is flawed.

I just don't get it.

I'd like to think that this is the start for Health Care reform NOT the finish. And I do see some of the immediate changes that will benefit those under 26 and elderly

[SidDithers]

70. +1...

as an interested, but unaffected observer, that's how I see it too.

Sid

[Individualist]

21. K&R

[Hamlette]

24. 16 years times 44,000 deaths = three quarters of a million dead Americans = your principles

We have different principles. Mine are based on the number of people who have died since we last tried to pass HCR. Since it is likely we will not try again, or get a better bill, in a like 16 years, that's too many dead people for my principles.

You keep your principles. They are too pie in the sky for me. I'd rather some change than no change.

Unless of course, you can convince me that the world will change and we'll get something better with ass hole Democrats like Jim Matheson. Or that we could elect a "better" democrat in Utah in the next 10 years.

[dflprincess]

46. How many people die every year because they're underinsured

and delay for forgo care because they can't afford the out of pockets? We never hear that number and this bill will not change that - in fact that number will increase. But at least those people will die with "coverage".

Change for the sake of "any change" is not necessarily an improvement.

[Hamlette]

69. back it up

with something besides "someone told me" or "I had this thing once and I couldn't"

Then, refute the 44,000 number.

Or, admit that your principles will kill three quarters of a million people.

(Underinsured usually means "won't pay for things that are non life threatening. Having worked in the industry for 10 years I can tell you, sometimes "unnecessary" surgery is just that. Unnecessary and will not improve the quality of your life.)

Got facts?

[dflprincess]

87. I use to work in the industry as well.

"underinsured" means you have a deductible and other out of pockets that are so high you still can't afford to see a doctor when you need to. Most the people who declare bankruptcy in this country do so because they had "coverage" but their insurance didn't pay the bills for necessary procedures.

This is becoming more common as employers move to "Consumer Driven Plans". Not only do people stop running to the doctor every time they sneeze (a good thing) but those with chronic conditions put off regular visits intended to monitor their conditions and cut back on their meds as, with many of these "Consumer Driven" scams, prescriptions are not covered until the deductible has been satisfied. These plans generally have deductibles between $1,000 & $2,000 + "coinsurance" payments of 80/20 or 90/10 until you've spent another two or three thousand out of pocket.

The bill passed by the House allows deductibles or $1,500 for singles with annual out of pockets of $5,000 (the Senate bill has higher limits). Deductibles this high are enough to keep people from seeking care.

Here are some links about the cost of these plans and their affect on a person's ability to access care.

http://www.ebri.org/publications/ib/index.cfm?fa=ibDisp...

• Higher out-of-pocket costs—Despite similar rates of health care use, individuals with CDHPs and HDHPs are significantly more likely to spend a large share of their income on out-of-pocket health care expenses than those in comprehensive health plans. Two-fifths (42 percent) of those in HDHPs and 31 percent of those in CDHPs spent 5 percent or more of their income on out-of pocket costs and premiums in the last year, compared with 12 percent of those in more comprehensive health plans.

• More missed health care—Individuals with CDHPs and HDHPs were significantly more likely to avoid, skip, or delay health care because of costs than were those with more comprehensive health insurance, with problems particularly pronounced among those with health problems or incomes under $50,000. About one-third of individuals in CHDPs (35 percent) and HDHPs (31 percent) reported delaying or avoiding care, compared with 17 percent of those in comprehensive health plans.

http://www.mn2020.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC=%7B0F5...

Myth: Consumer-driven health plans will encourage people to get the care that best suits their needs.

Fact: High deductibles and cost sharing shift benefits to the healthy but shift costs to the sick.

A survey from the Employee Benefit Research Institute found that, while people in such plans were more cost conscious, they were twice as likely to report delaying or avoiding care and about three times as likely to report paying a large fraction of their income on health costs as those in comprehensive insurance.

Although employers are allowed to make contributions to health savings accounts, a 2007 survey shows that employers contribute less to HSA-qualified plans compared with other types of plans, shifting higher out-of-pocket expenses to workers which could further deter workers from seeking care.

http://www.managedcaremag.com/archives/1001/1001.downst...

Research does show that CDHP enrollees clearly demonstrate cost-conscious behavior, according to the Employee Benefit Research Institute (EBRI). But several organizations, including the Center for Studying Health System Change (HSC), Families U.S.A., the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF), the Commonwealth Fund, and even the EBRI, say that shifting costs to employees can delay needed treatment. That can mean that when beneficiaries receive care, they are sicker. Delays, then, may raise overall costs.

...However, patient satisfaction is greater among members of traditional plans, and that is related to out-of-pocket costs. And CDHP and HDHP enrollees do report delaying seeking medical care because of costs.”

And this from a physician who sees first hand what high out of pockets do

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/83682912.... <img src=

As our policymakers work on broad-scale health care reform from the halls of government, many physicians have joined patients in demanding change.

As a neurologist who sees multiple sclerosis (MS) patients every day, I am worried that without reform, our current system will kill preventive care and continue driving up the cost of care. I know this because patients too often tell me that they aren't taking their medications or aren't following my advice for maintaining their health because they can't afford skyrocketing copays.

Copays are the fixed, out-of-pocket costs required by health insurers to be paid by patients for services such as exams at a clinic, outpatient procedures, physical therapy and the filling of prescriptions. These services are often preventive in nature -- for instance, preventing paralysis that would otherwise need constant, long-term medical attention, or preventing hospital stays with visits to the clinic for doctor-recommended checkups.

The idea behind copays is to reduce wasteful treatments by patients and health care providers, thereby reducing costs. But some copays have gotten out of control. Preventive medications for MS patients fall into the "fourth payment tier," which are more expensive to produce because they are naturally, rather than chemically, derived. These treatments prevent MS attacks and lessen long-term disability.

Insurance companies recently introduced this highest-priced tier and are categorizing more medications into the fourth tier all the time. In many cases, the copay for an MS medication can jump from $25 to $200 for a one-month supply, effectively denying patients access to needed medicines and preventive care.

Rather than reducing costs, high copays increase total costs to the health care system. That's because a patient who is denied access to a needed medication has to see his or her doctor to come up with an alternative treatment. This results in lost time and productivity for the patient, and it wastes the time of the health care provider, who could be helping another patient.

[eridani]

163. They are every bit as dead after "reform" Ask the Sarkisians, who had insurance n/t

[jotsy]

26. To promise us to a murderous industry is not my idea of reform.

There was never, nor is there now any point in their presence in the process but to milk profit from it. Jailers, not job security is what the big wigs of the health insurance industry need and deserve.

I don't believe HR 676 was ever even scored by the CBO, despite promises that at least would be known, if not done.

I understand there may be a legal battle brewing between governments if states attempt developing single payer systems on their own accord.

[theoldman]

28. In order for the camel to get into the tent he first has to get his nose into the tent.

This bill is just the start of many changes to our heath care system. It will be revised many times in the future until out system is more like other countries health care systems. That is why the Republicans are trying to kill the bill. They also know that if the bill gets passed that Obama will win a second term. It's all about being in control of the government.

[ProSense]

30. Clap louder. The people dying every year need the reassurance of your desires.

Until then, the President will deliver.

[Hotdiggitydog]

31. Pass it!!!!

It has a lot of great reforms, and more changes can come later. But if it doesn't pass, Obama's presidency is down the tubes. Lets get this thing passed!!!

[PSPS]

38. I'm afraid it has gone far beyond that

What is really being voted on here is the future of obama's presidency. The fact that it is called "health care reform" is just a convenience. If this fails to pass, it signifies that the republicans are in de-facto control of the government. Their right-wing MSM/hate radio propaganda machine will have "won." We simply can't let that happen regardless of how bad this particular bill is.

To put it more bluntly, this must pass simply because the republicans are against it. It's really not more complicated than that.

A telling indicator, of course, is the GOP's braying about how, if this passes, it will "spell doom for democrats in November" or "destroy the country." Well, if we know anything at all about the GOP, it is that those two very predictions are what their goals are: To destroy the country and to defeat democrats in November. So why are they pretending that those are the reasons they want this bill to fail? Wouldn't its passage bring them all they proclaim to want? Of course, it wouldn't. They know the opposite will happen.

[Lorien]

60. Obama and the Dems are toast if this passes

word WILL get out about what's really included in this sham of a bill. We will all be blamed for it for decades to come. Voters will never again think of the Democrats as anything more than a bunch of corporate toadies and greedy wanna-be lobbyists. The Dems have painted themselves into a corner on this one, and it's amazing that so many of them seem to be unaware of it.

[earth mom]

82. [phone]! This bill is ALL about the "win" and trying to make Obama look good.

Massive fail.

[kestrel91316]

119. .....and YOU'RE gonna help make it happen, right?

Got your toaster cranked up all the way, huh?

[Nay]

172. Thanks for that, Lorien. This bill will be hung around the Dems' neck

for the next 30 years. It's their fault, of course, for not seeking a truly reformatory bill instead of a giveaway to health ins cos. But we'll hear the pubs rail about the Dems' failed "socialized medicine" until I die of old age.

[RoyGBiv]

40. We all want a better one ...

Standing on principles alone for the past 100 years, however, is the reason we're having to take this as the base on which to build something better.

[stray cat]

41. And you clearly think the status quo is better than this alternative

just the like GOP actually - they also prefer a better bill even though what we mean by better may differ. Why are you any different than anyone else on either side of the aisle? Everyone left and right is looking for the "better bill"

[treestar]

42. On something like this, you have to take steps

In the movie of 1776, John Adams wanted to stand by principles and refuse to sign the Declaration of Independence unless it condemned slavery; with that the Southern states would not sign it. He gave in on that. And it took a lot of suffering and at least another 80 years - another 200 if you want to count the Jim Crow era.

But where would we be now without that compromise?

You have to check the long view and accept the people you have, especially if you are the one ahead of the curve. I think we should have what they have in Canada, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand. But we don't have that population. We have a lot of idiots, teabaggers, followers of Sarah Palin, Blue Dogs, and they are numerous enough. We have to make some progress where we can, in spite of them, or they just win. They always want nothing. When you want all or nothing, you end up with them. So you're not fighting them, but letting them have what they want and believe me, they will laugh at you for it.

[Arkana]

48. "The issue here is independence, John!"

"Perhaps you have forgotten that, but I have not! If we don't get that, what else matters?!"

[treestar]

51. "for god's sake John, sit down!"

[verges]

63. Some one ought to open up a window.

[misanthrope]

72. So you're saying that those who decry this bill based on progressive principle...

...are equivalent to abolitionists and that those who want to push it through for the sake of political expedience (saving one man's political career) are the equivalent of those who feel the suffering of millions African-Americans for centuries is a negligible thing for the chance to empower and enrich the landed gentry of the colonies?

Some might say that slavery is slavery, whether to the plantation master or insurance company. Ironically, the nation that America revolted against achieved abolition and equitable health care long before the United States did.

[jeff47]

126. We're saying

That those who decry this bill can be momentarily happy that things are better. A lot of problems were fixed by this bill, and we should take a moment to be happy about that.

And after that moment, we get back to the heavy lifting required to fix the new problems caused by this bill.

[OnionPatch]

44. I want a better one, too.

We all do and I understand you have principles. But I really don't see us having single-payer health care in this country for a long, long time.....we have a whole lot of misinformed and brainwashed fellow-citizens to straighten out first, so we'll have the support for it. We aren't there yet, not even close. If this bill helps improve the situation for some, I want to see it passed.

[verges]

52. I would love

to have a Rolls-Royce Drop-head Coupe. But I need a car now. So I have a Chevy Cavalier.

[Raineyb]

62. I think the type and quality of health care is slightly more important the the relative

quality of a vehicle which one does NOT need to live.

:thumbsdown:

[verges]

66. My point was meant to be

that this is the best we could have possibly gotten at this time.

[earth mom]

85. At the rate those bastards are ripping us all off, we will all be walking soon because

we can't afford a car because we are paying the bulk of our income to the bloodsucking insurance companies!

[nightrain]

53. exactly. Dems have real concerns about this bill that are ignored, while

we're accused of being teabaggers or worse here.

[Edweird]

55. +1 I don't want RW crap championed by Dems.

[Lorien]

56. Not just a better one; one that actually will WORK for the American PEOPLE, not simply enrich

the already wealthy. The current bill adds to the pain by allowing insurance costs to continue to rise and forcing people to pay for a product that may never do anything for them. Ultimately, we're looking at an even larger economic crisis because of this piss poor bill, with no guarantees that lives will be saved because of it. Prescription drugs will still be unaffordable, and Democrats will be enemy #1 with the people once the mandates kick in. Bad for the people, bad for the party..but great for the insurance lobby. The symbolic "win" isn't worth it.

[jeff47]

133. Have you thought out what happens with a symbolic "loss"?

Right now, the bad economy has the R's favored for November. If this bill hadn't passed, what exactly would have happened? R's have a major comeback in 2010, and Obama does exactly what Clinton did after the last HCR failure in 1994 - move even further right.

That, obviously, would be bad.

We govern with the politicians we have, not the ones we wish we had. It's election time when we should break out the wishes. This batch of politicians would not give us more. It's up to us to work on replacing them with a better batch. But in the meantime we make as many improvements as we can wring out of the current batch.

As for the mandate, we'll have to see what happens. If insurance continues to be completely unaffordable, it will be the disaster you speak of. But that isn't guaranteed. And, if it turns out to be as unaffordable as you expect, that'll be fantastic leverage to get "a real public option" or single-payer.

While the politicians are currently patting themselves on the back, their work isn't done, and it's up to us to make sure they learn that. For example, http://arcuri.house.gov/ is my representative. It's my job to make sure that is no longer the case in the next Congress.

[Aramchek]

61. and you'd rather have nothing at all? sounds intelligent.

[Motown_Johnny]

64. but how will you get it? everyone wants a better bill..

[monmouth]

73. Medicare was a horror/nightmare when it first passed. Patient is

a virtue. Let's just get this damned thing passed and move on from there..

[eridani]

164. That is total bullshit. It was great for the few who got into it at first

The problem was not what it provided, but that it took awhile to get enough people into the system to make a difference. A GOVERNMENT system. That is a crucial point.

[leftstreet]

75. K&R

[dana_b]

76. nah....

we're just a bunch of selfish purists who want the US to be like France. We hate everything that doesn't live up to our standards.

Oh - :sarcasm:

[gulfcoastliberal]

78. Yeah, a bill that doesn't gut medicare ($500 billion) & transfer the $ to insurance companies

This bill is a corpofascist wet dream.

[earth mom]

79. I can't believe the shit I'm seeing around here today. People crying because

Pelosi has the gavel that was used to pass medicare-which to me is the height of brazenness as those corporate shills pass a bill that hands off and forces the peoples money to private FOR PROFIT insurance companies!

I'm so mad I could spit! :grr:

[Raine]

83. You aren't the only one

I'm not only enraged I'm totally disgusted and repulsed. :mad: :grr:

[earth mom]

86. Glad to know that I'm not the only one!

:hi:

[Lorien]

109. Far from it

But after watching a Charlie Rose clip that someone posted I realized something; the MSM, which I almost never see, is pushing this as The Big Game. Two sports teams pitted against one another, each with a coach running their plays. Each trying to score points. And half of the people here have bought into it; it's about a "win" for the home team. They really haven't thought at all about the specifics because all they here on the MSM is "it's better than the current system" (really?) and "It will be a historic win for the Democrats!". Rubbing the nose of the opposing team in their "triumph" is the final goal, not real reform that will save lives, homes, sanity, and the American economy. Heck, half the people here don't even know what the home team stands for. They just know that it's kinda sorta not what the away team is for-so if you hate the current scam known as HCR then you must be "with" the opposing team. It's the most simplistic thinking imaginable, yet our simplistic mSM has made it work for them, and for both of the "teams". Don't think, just grab a flag and react.

Man, I miss the America that we had when we still had a fairness doctrine and a halfway decent educational system!

[saracat]

90. Me too. Stupidity is run rampant.

[Skittles]

96. the standards have been very much lowered

it is indeed disturbing

[LibDemAlways]

125. I'm with you. A complete sell out to the insurance industry and

we're supposed to be doing the happy dance. I just heard on the local news here in LA the announcer explain that this bill requires people to buy private health insurance. How many people were hearing that tidbit for the first time? I can only imagine the reaction: WTF? Did I hear that right? Where the hell is the public option Obama talked about?

This POS is going to be as popular as a turd in the punch bowl.

The Dems have blown it bigtime.

[havocmom]

84. Yeah! Maybe you still believe OUR reps on the Hill should and can work for US, not corporations

I believe it is possible that the greatest nation on earth can AND SHOULD do better than give insurance companies (and by extension, Wall Street) more welfare. I believe it is possible we can give people REAL health CARE reform.

I won't tolerate this pretend reform and a lot of self promoting congratulations for a job well botched.

Good OP, NightWatcher. Good thread. We will need to bookmark and have it handy for the them the reality of the sham bill hits people in the face.

[LibDemAlways]

132. I'll be revisiting this thread in November when the headlines read

Big Republican Gains in Congress: Unpopular Health Plan Blamed, and reading all the posts from the Monday morning DU quarterbacks scratching their heads and trying to figure out what went wrong.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[johnaries]

89. How many will die while you're waiting? How many will go bankrupt

while you're waiting?

Dying for your principles is all well and good, but forcing innocent others to die for your principles is simply vile. That is not a Progressive value.

Yes, I want a better bill. But this bill will save many lives and keep many people out of bankruptcy until that time that we can help even more. It is our progressive duty to do what we can when we can to help who we can.

The world isn't perfect. No person is perfect. This bill isn't perfect. But it will help millions. It is Progress. If we are Progressives, then we must support it and then continuously stive to improve it and all Progressive legislation.

[amborin]

92. K&R Insurance corporations won today! never should have been a mandate w/o a robust PO

never should have been an excise tax on middle class plans

etc........


today's a day that corporations triumphed yet again and increased their hold on our lives

[XOKCowboy]

93. K&R It seems most are celebrating finally beating the Republicans at something...

I'd like to be celebrating a real Progressive Single Payer plan that was never even on the table. I might have supported a robust or not Public Option but that was negotiated away. I really don't see much reason to celebrate.

[Autumn]

94. No maybe to it.

Too bad our Party didn't hold out.
I saw no republican votes for it.

[Skittles]

95. maybe it's because we wanted REAL REFORM

not this fucking dog and pony show

[Mithreal]

97. Teddy had principles. These New Dems, not so much.

[New Dawn]

98. K&R - FUCK the Fascist "Individual Mandate"!

[Ken Burch]

99. Look, the focus now needs to be on fixing the problems and passing Grayson's bill

You're right that some were too harsh in how they tried to get people here in line for this bill. And you were and are right to stand for your principles.

All we can do now, and all that we must do now, is make this the foundation stone for the house of social and economic justice we have to build.

[HuckleB]

117. +1

[Roland99]

100. Obama threw Single Payer under the bus

The ConservaDems will be VERY reluctant to vote Yea on a Public Option as they'll say, "Hey, we've already passed reform. It will work out fine. Just give it time. Trust us."

or something like that....

[Lorien]

112. He wouldn't even allow single payer advocates a seat at the table, which is why I have to question

the "but we didn't have the votes" people; didn't have the votes? It wasn't even ALLOWED to be a part of the agenda! And who stopped it? The Obama white house, NOT the Blue Dogs or the repugs. The Public Option was always just a marketing tool to get the rest of the party on board. They have absolutely no intention of ever allowing a vote on it. That's a carrot on the end of a very long stick which isn't getting any closer.

[jeff47]

136. Single payer will happen

It'll happen through a Medicare buy-in.

That buy-in only works well when you have a framework in which to put it. The bill that passed today gives us the framework.

Now, a simple and short bill can be introduced, putting Medicare as one of the choices in every exchange. Blue Dogs and others would have a harder time justifying opposition to their constituents, who overwhelmingly love Medicare.

Then Medicare turns out to be the cheapest and highest-rated insurance on the exchanges. Which lets us pass another simple and short bill allowing companies to offer Medicare as an option in their insurance programs. Again, hard for the Blue Dogs to oppose. Companies see large savings, and so flock to it.

With virtually everyone already insured by Medicare, well we might as well go single-payer.

Yes, I'm talking about a LONG road here. And if history is any guide, it won't be easy to get there. But we will, as long as we keep fighting. The fact that the media considers this the end of the fight only emphasizes how inept they are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Remain engaged

that is what it will take.

History is prologue...

And SS and Medicare were big stinkers too.

[Juche]

103. I want something better too, that is why I supported this bill

This bill moves the overton window to the left.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

Overton described a method for moving that window, thereby including previously excluded ideas, while excluding previously acceptable ideas. The technique relies on people promoting ideas even less acceptable than the previous "outer fringe" ideas. That makes those old fringe ideas look less extreme, and thereby acceptable. The idea is that priming the public with fringe ideas intended to be and remain unacceptable, will make the real target ideas seem more acceptable by comparison.

The degrees of acceptance of public ideas can be described roughly as:

* Unthinkable
* Radical
* Acceptable
* Sensible
* Popular
* Policy

The Overton Window is a means of visualizing which ideas define that range of acceptance by where they fall in it, and adding new ideas that can push the old ideas towards acceptance merely by making the limits more extreme.






Having federally regulated universal health care will move the overton window to the left, making further reforms easier.

Imagine opposing medicare in 1965 because it didn't cover prescription drugs. That is kindof what opposing this bill is. Right now single payer may be 'radical' but in 5 years it will be 'acceptable', in part due to things like this bill moving the overton window to the left.

[bigwillq]

104. K and R (nt)

[Lorien]

105. Let's watch the Insurance Company stocks tomorrow

that will tell us all we need to know!

[zipplewrath]

108. Obligation versus Right

In the end this bill was about the obligation to purchase health insurance. What it wasn't about was the obligation to health care ACCESS. Despite who is paying for it, there is no obligation implied or enforced in this legislation about the delivery of health CARE. Alot of people are going to be surprised that paying for health insurance isn't going to buy them health CARE.

[Shanti Mama]

111. Democracy = Compromise

I doubt there are many among us who didn't want a stronger, more helpful bill. But the entire construct of democracy is grounded in compromise. I believe we did more than our share but it's DONE.
Now, let's support Grayson in passing Medicare for all!

[Lorien]

114. Tell that to BushCo. Obama never compromised; he wanted a bill that didn't include

single payer or a public option. He forced liberals to compromise. Let's think about that; the leader of the super majority party forced the base of his own party to compromise. He chose to twist the arms of his BASE, NOT the opposition. When have you ever seen the repugs do that?

We've been had. That's the bottom line. Now let's watch the insurance industry stocks tomorrow.

[jeff47]

138. Compromise is not always possible.

"He chose to twist the arms of his BASE, NOT the opposition"

One can not twist arms that do not exist.

"When have you ever seen the repugs do that?"

Unfortunately, the Blue Dogs form a reliable supply of idiots who can be easily manipulated. Hence, our efforts to primary out the Blue Dogs.

"Now let's watch the insurance industry stocks tomorrow."

I would think after living through the past 20 years, you wouldn't put too much faith in the stock market's ability to predict the future. The stock market loved CDOs, Enron and Internet stocks.

[Enthusiast]

169. "The base" includes

those millions of American people that give the public option that 70% approval rating. You say the base doesn't exist. You are way wrong.

[jeff47]

180. I say no such thing

You might want to re-read my post. I said nothing about the base.

[Enthusiast]

168. Lorien, Obama is wrong, no question.

The base isn't the ones ripping off the American people.

The larger issue is the battle over corporate control of the U.S.

We are losing-BIG TIME.

[Mithreal]

131. .

Even though there is no specific, universally accepted definition of 'democracy',<3> there are two principles that any definition of democracy includes: equality and freedom. <4> These principles are reflected in all citizens being equal before the law and having equal access to power. <5> and the freedom of its citizens is secured by legitimized rights and liberties which are generally protected by a constitution. - wikipedia

Agree with your sentiment to some extent, but where was all that compromise during the Bush years? Compromise doesn't always lead to good governance. Sometimes one position really is right and the opposing pov wrong.

Maybe you meant something different? I only ask because this seems like a bad place for us to be if we don't even understand what democracy is.

[Enthusiast]

167. We can ALL get behind this.

"Now, let's support Grayson in passing Medicare for all!"

Unless there are some insurance industry stooges in here(DU).

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

115. DEMS had the majority and the mandate but all I got was this insurance policy

waste of mandate.

[HuckleB]

116. I want a better one, too.

But history tells me that we need to take some steps forward, NOW!

[Swamp Rat]

120. k&r

[Chisox08]

121. Thank You. nt

[upi402]

128. k/r n/t

[paulflorez]

130. The Republicans and Tea Partiers are saying the exact same thing...

How would you feel if we passed the Republican health care reform bill? HSAs that disappear when you switch jobs, higher deductibles so you do not "abuse" your health insurance, does not ban insurance companies from rejecting you or dumping you for pre-existing conditions, takes away your right to sue if a doctor "accidentally" kills or premanently disabled you and setting a maximum award cap of $250,000 or twice your economic value, whichever is greater?

That's what they want and if we started over, they might have gotten it. Single-payer health-care would have been nowhere in sight.

[uponit7771]

134. So let the perfect be the enemy of good or adequate?! Ilogicall!!!

[Mithreal]

139. Stop that nonsense.

Is bad the enemy of the good? Is better than nothing the enemy of nothing?

Do ends justify the means?

How many people is it still ok to sacrifice to the insurance gods? Have a number so I know when I can expect something more?

[Lindsey]

140. You can't win the lotto if you don't by a lottot ticket....

HCR needs to be on the table and NOW IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mithreal]

142. Can't win quality affordable health care without buying an insurance lottery ticket

Health Insurance is on the table but if you really want to stretch and call it health care that would be disingenuous.

Interesting what wasn't on the table this time, no?

And SP and PO, that was just pillow talk, baby.

[avaistheone1]

141. I definitely believe we both need and should have passed a much better

health care reform bill than this.

Too many of us are still left out with this health care bill, and the for-profit insurance are being further enriched and empowered. So there is no cause for celebration here. imo

[OneBlueSky]

143. in the end, what drove passage of this bill was not that it would reform healthcare . . .

or that it would be an improvement over the current system or anything having to do with you and me . . . it was simply the need to pass something -- anything -- to save Obama's politial life . . . thus all the compromises that have diluted pretty much everything out of the bill except the mandate to purchase flawed and expensive insurance policies (no doubt with large deductibles) . . . improving healthcare simply got lost in the political battle . . .

[951-Riverside]

159. +1

[Chulanowa]

145. That may be. There's just one hitch

Our system doesn't work that way. There has never been any moment in US history where we get revolutionary change. The entire system in place is set up to prevent that. Instead what we get is dribs and drabs of a little reform here, a little change there, building on what's already present rather than creating something new and wonderful out of nowhere.

There's a difference between being against this health care bill, and being for an imagined better one. I suspect you're more towards the latter. I'd love a better bill. But what we're getting is good-ish. Not perfect by far, but anyone who expects perfection on the first try in the American system is either naive or hasn't been living here very long.

[JeffR]

148. Should be the final word in this endless hogslop HCR warfare on DU.

Thank you. You'll be disregarded by many here, who prefer to wallow in ignorance. More's the pity for them, since they're on the same side we all are. Most of them, anyway.

[Chulanowa]

151. I'm used to it, at least

I've pointed it out at least a dozen times, and the usual reply seems to be "Well it shouldn't work that way!"

At which point i simply point out that if we could get sweeping revolutionary reforms through... So could the other guys. And I'd rather have a slow buildup to decent health care than a sudden sweep of anti-choice homophobic gulag legislation.

[JeffR]

153. Damn right.

That's the choice right now. Best of all possible worlds? Definitely not, but this is where things stand now, and the question is how much all those various groups who pride themselves on believing they're the real roots are willing to agitate for fine tuning or bolstering as soon as a need is identified, and to stay onside if they believe more change is worth fighting for.

Those who have loudly given up were usually lousy in the trenches anyway. And those who want to continue to fight have to be aware that to whatever degree they concede that the political process, corrupted and co-opted as it is, is capable of being a vehicle of change, they better know damn well what the specs of the vehicle are. It's not a Ferrari, it's a Pacer. As you note so rightly, this is by design. It's how the government was intended to work. It's cumbersome, often risible, and really quite sane despite all the clown shows it engenders.

[eridani]

161. The public option was not in any way shape or form revolutionary

It was pared down to the point that it was neither public nor an option, but we STILL couldn't get what 82% of the public wanted.

[Chulanowa]

174. Yes, it was

Just the notion of it is revolutionary. it is a total departure from what is "regular" in this country. I think you're mixing the colliquial with hte technical term.

Sort of like how saying "American government is conservative" is factual, even when we're talking about liberal politicians. it's a description of how slow and cautious even our fastest changes are.

[eridani]

188. I meant the actual final product after it was whittled down

The original Hacker version certainly was revolutionary.

[Warren Stupidity]

176. SS Medicare Civil Rights are the counter examples.

They were all fundamental reforms with sweeping effect. It is possible for Congress to enact dramatic change, it just doesn't happen very often.

[watajob]

146. What are these...

... "principles" you speak of? :eyes:

[Jax]

150. Thanks NightWatcher

You live here and get it.

Alyce

Wish I could rec!!!

[Political Heretic]

152. Or maybe its because you believe it does more long term HARM than good.

Even if it delivers some short term good.

[avaistheone1]

154. I have no doubt that the bill will further empower and enrich the

health insurers at our expense.

They are already a monster that no one seems to be able to tame, this bill puts the insurers on steroids.

Moreover, the politicians who made this bill happen will be rewarded with more campaign dollars to continue to do the work of the health insurers, rather than to follow the will of the people.

I don't see how we the people can win from this kind of health reform.

[ScreamingMeemie]

155. BC/BS already raised my dad's (he's on Medicare) rates by

$100/month. Hmmmmmmm.

It will be like the 9 (or was it 11) given to the credit card companies to raise rates and impose fees, only the insurers will be given 4 years to mess everyone over.

[freddie mertz]

184. That is my principle concern.

[Enthusiast]

165. We could have had

the kind of health care reform I wanted if Obama and congressional Democrats would have recognized (acknowledged) several key facts.

THE fact is the Pharmaceutical and insurance industries and their quest for profit is the core problem. The American people of every stripe recognize that Pharmaceutical and insurance industries are the core problem.

A bill constructed with this in mind would have been embraced by the American people. Republican opposition and propaganda would have been far less effective.

I guess they should have listened to me and millions of others that shared my vision of health care reform. This legislation could have allowed a token insurance industry to exist. My vision would never allow corporations to lord over health care like they currently do.

But that's just me.

[Richardo]

171. Now that this one is in place, you have a better chance than ever of achieving those goals.

[Warren Stupidity]

175. Or maybe not.

However at this point, aligning one's political position with the frightful hatefest on the right seems just a little wrong-headed to me, but that is just my opinion.

[customerserviceguy]

181. Count me in as one who wants better

But if this is allowed to stand, it will just be an excuse not to do anything better "until it's had a chance to work". Frankly, the way this was cobbled together practically guarantees that President Palin will sign its repeal as her first official act.

[deacon]

183. Of course we want a better one and need one. But if the GOP won on this - you would never see one.

n/t

[JackDragna]

186. I'm against it for this reason:

If Obama really wanted something progressive, he would've fought for it. He would have mobilized the base of supporters who got him elected, he would've brow-beat Republicans as lovers of a status-quo that took advantaged of the poor and sick and would've twisted the arms of Democrats who showed resistance to its passage. Instead, we get this gigantic abortion of a bill which isn't "health care reform" at all: it's a health insurance bill.

[smoogatz]

189. Good luck with that. nt

[Aaria]

190. We deserve better. And it will be a big give away to Ins. Cos. Enforced by the IRS

[Metta]

192. This bill is like Obama. More sizzle than steak.

What a disappointment he is. Too far too the right. Way to much continuing Bush policies. Happy karma to him.

[fatbuckel]

194. Hey repubs...it`s all about winning,isn`t it?

Grow up,you self serving infants.

[zipplewrath]

196. Or because it is a bad bill

Because it establishes health CARE as an option, and health INSURANCE as an obligation.

Because it was a bill designed to ensure that universal health care WOULDN'T become a reality.

[colsohlibgal]

197. What You Said

There will be no real care reform till we get profit out of the equation, until a Well Point can't have 40 people making a million or more. Every million we pay these leeches could pay for a lot of chemo treatments, to give one example.

[ChiciB1]

199. I "Think" What The Opposition IS ALL ABOUT!! Not that We DON'T Want

HCR, but that we DON'T like WHAT Big Pharma & Insurance Companies actually are getting in return!!

While I "may" have seen a "teeney-weeney" bit of opposition from the above, for the MOST PART, there were no REAL Harriet & Louise ads being run BY Insurance/Pharma Companies! If there were, I MISSED them, but am willing to say I "could" have missed something! Actually I don't think I saw them complaining at all, but may have forgotten it.

However, what I DIDN'T miss was the STUFF they DID actually get! And I'm STILL struggling with the fact that a bill was PASSED the PREVENTS the public from buying drugs from Canada or other places at a cheaper cost! Still SCRATCHING my head over this and can't for the life of me figure this one out!!

I have my suspicions about WHY this happened, and feel it may have SOMETHING to do with that "deal" that was made by what many here say was "behind closed doors!" WH could have said, IF you don't buck us on this, we will make SURE this country will STILL have NO OPTION to purchase cheaper drugs!

It's these type of things that I HAD NEVER EXPECTED from Obama or OUR OWN Congress Critters!!

While I have tried to let my Congress Critters KNOW how I feel, I realized early on it was USELESS! I live in Florida and that pretty much says it ALL! But what really surprised me was HOW MANY TIMES Vernie Buchanan called my home phone telling me he wanted me to attend his "gab fest" here! I have called him, and THEY have my name because I have let them know quite a few times how I feel. But because I'm not really "on board" with this bill, I suppose they thought I would join THEM in some way!

Meeting with Vernie is almost TOO REPULSIVE, he himself is a crook and I wonder how many lawsuits he is STILL dealing with!!!

[peace13]

201. Or maybe it's because 'you ' already have federally funded health care...

and don't want others to crowd your dance floor. Don't kid yourself many of those who oppose are thinking of themselves here!

[liberation]

204. LOL. Now you are reaching at logical straws...

Yeah, we want a better health care reform because we hate our fellow citizens. And that actually made enough "sense" to you as to write it out in a public forum. I'd love what the cacophony of logical dissonance that is needed to make a statement like that must sound like, I am sure it is glorious.

[unpossibles]

202. definitely

But we need to take steps toward that. Look at it this way, if this bill has so many on the right up in arms (sometimes literally), then imagine trying to pass true universal health care.

[Stumbler]

206. Yep, that's where I'm at..

[Mad_Dem_X]

208. AMEN. n/t

[Hell Hath No Fury]

209. Yes, for many of us that is the issue.

I know what this bill does and does not do. The framework of mandated private insurance is the starting place of where this bill went wrong.

If anyone things the private insurance companies are going to ever hand back tens of millions of new customers and billions in taxpayer cash to a government run system, you are out of your flippin' mind. Seriously.

It started out on the wrong foot and it will take an act of the gods (or the Supreme Court) to make the kind of genuine change we needed.

[obxhead]

210. I wanted a HEALTH CARE bill, not an insurance stimulus package.

I'm sick of this being portrayed as HCR. Thanks Obama and friends, you have added a bill to my already tight budget I can not afford. Now I get to choose between an insurance plan I can't afford to use, or a fine I have to pay yearly. Thanks again, next time I would appreciate it if you bring some lube with you.

[sallyseven]

211. We all do. Single payer or Medicare for all.

[MissDeeds]

212. Well said

Thanks for your post. This needed to be said.

K&R

[Jakes Progress]

213. Screw principles. We want to win.

It doesn't matter what. We just want to win something.

Yeah for us.

[krabigirl]

215. Yes. I don't want an insurance industry bailout.