The VIOLENCE

[guitar man]

Yes, the VIOLENCE of over 40,000 people a year dying in a land of such abundance just because they cannot afford medical care. There, I said it.

I'm not crazy about the entirety of this bill, but if it helps to curb some of that violence, I'm for it. I have concerns that it may do little or nothing to help my family's situation re: healthcare, but if it helps people that are worse off than we are, I'll support it.

Now let's get on with it and pass this thing. :bounce:

[leftstreet]

1. So if it doesn't kick in 'til 2014, that's 160,000 more dead?

Do I have that right?

:shrug:

[Political Heretic]

4. People need to stop saying stuff that's not true.

It really doesn't help.

Adult pre-existing conditions denial ban doesn't start until 2014, BUT IN THE MEANTIME anyone denied coverage, is thrown into a catch-all group insurance option.

So no, its not quite true to claim that it doesn't kick in until 2014.

Let's at least get the arguments right, otherwise people use that against us.

[ScreamingMeemie]

7. So now catch-all is code word for "high risk pool" which is code word

for high cost, little covered? I have to keep things straight.

[leftstreet]

9. That's not the '40,000' the OP is talking about

You're talking about something else

[Political Heretic]

10. It's what you are talking about in saying it doesn't kick-in until 2014.

Which is misleading, if not outright untrue.

[leftstreet]

13. No...it's not. But whatever. n/t

[Political Heretic]

2. This bill does not address the cost of medical care. It reforms insurance.

There's a big fucking difference.

[Lorien]

6. Nothing more than a transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top

which will make health care LESS affordable for many since, like me, they'll be forced to pay for it out of pocket due to their sky high deductibles and unpaid claims...on TOP of paying a premium for a non service. Many people won't seek medical care because they won't be able to cover the deductible, many more won't even be able to get a general physical every few years because the premiums will take away their last sheds of "disposable" income!

[Bluebear]

3. What does this bill do to help those 40,000 people afford medical care? There, I said it!

[cilla4progress]

8. Uh, subsidies?

[Political Heretic]

11. No, tax credits that don't fully cover the cost of premiums. Premiums aren't medical care.

Median income family of 4 in Oregon: 61,945

Amount that family pays for premium AFTER tax-credit: 5,500

Amount of dedicutible for Bronze insurance exchanges plan: 2,000

Amount of out of-pocket-costs caps (co-pay costs you must pay before insurance covers 100%) $12,000

So in a worst case scneario year, where that family has a member that gets seriously sick, needs surgery, has many tests, requires extended hospitalization, etc. - the total out of pocket cost to that family would be approximately $19,500 - thats 31% of that family's median income.

Not great.

Not even good.

[cilla4progress]

15. And status quo?

If the bill isn't passed? Or is there something better on the table?

So...what are the subsidies that Obama refers to?

[Political Heretic]

16. Back-breaking is back-breaking.

Subsidies Obama refers to are tax-credits for insurance premiums for 133-400$ of FPL incomes - but none of these subsidies fully cover the cost. Politicians call these "subsidies."

As I said above, a median income family of four in Oregon (my home state) is on the hook for 5,550$ of premium costs, AFTER SUBSIDIES, plus $2000 deductible for which there is no subsidy, pluse a $12,000 out of pocket co-pay cap for which there is also no subsidy.

[cilla4progress]

17. And 0 help in any way on any level

in the bill or elsewhere for this family?

I guess I have to take your word for it. It runs 100% counter to Democratic liberal / progressive politicians such as Obama, Sherrod Brown, Patrick Kennedy, Dick Durbin, Nancy Pelosi, John Dingell, John Lewis, Barney Frank, etc. etc., etc., ... but I'll take your word for it over theirs.

[Political Heretic]

18. No, it actually doesn't contradict any of them.

It falls into the category of "this isn't a perfect bill" for them.

And you can get more information, with references, here:
http://practical-vision.blogspot.com/2010/03/high-cost-of-reform-health-reform-part.html

[cilla4progress]

19. OK - we agree.

I AM concerned about your hypothetical family, I want you to know. I will continue to work for TRUE health equity, beginning tomorrow.

Thank you for edifying me.

[Political Heretic]

20. We'll work together.

thank you.

[cilla4progress]

21. Blessings

[Bluebear]

14. Uh, no, tax 'credits', not subsidies

[derby378]

5. From Youth Brigade

They call us fascist and then they pray
To the God that made the world their way
In whose name they kill and teach
The sermons and the laws they preach

Violence, violence, violence
Just for kicks
Violence, violence, violence
Does it make any sense
Violence, violence, violence
Can you stop it
Violence, violence, violence
Do you want to

Philosophy borne of the mind
Try to explain the problems of our lives
It can t explain away
That violence is here to stay

Say it's just our nature
We have to fight, fight, fight
Doesn't matter we've been taught
that might makes right

Violence, violence, violence
Just for kicks
Violence, violence, violence
Does it make any sense
Violence, violence, violence
Can you stop it
Violence, violence, violence
Do you want to

[quiet.american]

12. Great attitude, guitar man. Thumbs up from me! :) nt

[Maru Kitteh]

22. YES WE CAN! :)