Historic

[RoyGBiv]

[ixion]

1. Yeah, an EPIC FAIL of Historical proportions

yippee.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. May I recommend a few History books? I am serious there.

[ixion]

4. I've read many history books

but apparently you have not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Yeah that is why I hold a Masters in the subject

that said, if you have, then you'd know that the Social Security act of 1935 was seen as a betrayal by the Liberal Wing of the Party... and it was HORRIBLE. Tell me where that social security is now?

Think about that, because there IS a damn precedent for this, actually two of them.

The Medicare Act of 1965 was all but stellar... where is it right now?

So here is your cue. As horrible as this bill is, this is the beginning of the fight, not the end.

If you do not know this, then I will take the I did not know that explanation.

[ixion]

9. I apologize for the snark

However we are going to simply have to agree to disagree on this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. I do recommend you do some research

[ixion]

15. I Have

thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Have a good life

you can now get out of the way. The agitation to reform this begins NOW.

You can chose to join us, or get out of the way.

[ixion]

23. For a history major, you seem to have missed the point that Ultimatums have the opposite effect

of the intended. This has nothing to do with 'reform'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. And you missed the point

For a HISTORY DEGREE... not Major...

The Social Security Act of 1935 was HORRIBLE... but over the next few decades it was and has been improved upon.

The Medicare Act of '65 stunk to high heaven. This is HOW REFORM is done in the US.

So you can chose to join us, or get out of the way. Some folks chose to bet out of the way with both...

Pick a history book and chiefly read it.

[ixion]

38. whatever...you're certainly full of yourself

for someone who can't see the Big Picture.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. I can see the big picture very well thank you

but your choice remains the same. You can pick up your marbles and go home, or agitate for change. Those are the choices we have at all times. That my dear is the truly big picture.

There is nothing I can do to explain this to you, since you really don't understand what I am saying. The good news is... most of the people who chose to pick up their marbles and went home in 1935 ate their words... and the same happened in '65.

Given US History... well I chose to stay engaged in the generational fight of my age. You chose to pick up marbles, your prerogative.

[The Magistrate]

45. Always A Skunk At the Wedding, Ma'am

Passing this bill was essential, flawed as it is....

"The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in mind."

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. But we can make this skunk less smelly

in time.

:-)

Good to see you up and about.

[ixion]

49. Your 'Big Picture' has blinders on

And so even though you may think yourself above the fray, you're actually promoting the system you claim to reject. Have fun with that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. And what system is that?

US History? And her realities?

If and when we have a civil war and the country breaks up, well that is one way to end that.

Have a good life...

:banghead:

Can't help that.

[ixion]

53. Thanks to crappy career-politicians, you can rest comfortably in the knowledge that

my life will never be "good."

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Crappy career politicos are an American Tradition

I tend not to blame them for the problems in my life... but that's just me.

[Cary]

67. Where is the upside to your doom and gloom?

Why would anyone in their right mind buy into that?

[Political Heretic]

35. There are as many historical examples of bad bills that were never fixed and made things worse

:shrug:

And in the case of both Medicare and social security, there WAS a foundation from which to build on.

In this case, in my opinion there is no foundation. Quite the contrary, there are nothing but obstacles that will have to be removed, repealed, or undone before moving forward.

That's a pretty profound difference.

Please don't wave around degrees and act like you have a monopoly on historical knowledge, or that anyone who disagrees with you is historically ignorant. It doesn't help your case - it makes you look incredibly ridiculous.

I am a student of history too, and have a masters degree - in social work, where I am required to go very deep into history of social welfare policy in the United States. Just because that's the case does not mean anyone who disputes my conclusions is historically ignorant. That's just pompous bloviating.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Sometimes when you got nothing better to do

read the Social Security Act of 1935. You will perhaps understand why the lefties of the day hated it.

Yes, it was that bad.

Oh and to add, what you just posted, could have been said by the progressive wing of the party back then.

[Political Heretic]

43. Yeah, read it, read about thirteen books on it, wrote four papers on it...

It is first of all incorrect that "all lefties" hated it. It is second of all incorrect to imply that they all hated it for the same reasons. Additionally, unlike my assessment of current legislation, SS 1935 did establish a cornerstone from which to build on. Future revisions added to that foundation.

But in our current case, future progress for a health system that is in the best interest of poor and working class individuals and families will require totally repealing large chunks of this legislation. That's a big difference.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. And so did SS

that's ok, I guess the US will have to break the Long Duree for change to be faster to please people.

Sadly I don't expect that to happen in either of our life times.

[Political Heretic]

46. It's not about speed, its about direction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Let me guess, you think not making being a woman

a pre-existing condition not moving in the right direction?

Or for that matter cutting pre-existing conditions for kids not moving in the right direction?

As much of a smelly skunk as this is... it is in the right direction.

[Political Heretic]

55. I think this:

http://practical-vision.blogspot.com/2010/03/trillion-dollar-wealth-transfer-health.html

http://practical-vision.blogspot.com/2010/03/facade-of-reform-health-reform-2-of-4.html

http://practical-vision.blogspot.com/2010/03/high-cost-of-reform-health-reform-part.html

http://practical-vision.blogspot.com/2010/03/is-something-really-better-than-nothing.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. I did not say it was perfect now did I?

Neither was the SS Act of 1935, which for practical reasons did nothing.

Or for that matter the Medicare Act of 1965

Did I mention SCHIP?

If you think you can get radical change in this country in one fell swoop, show me the votes. I want a whip count. Until then, I prefer to live in reality, and realize that the fight of MY GENERATION has just begun.

[Political Heretic]

58. I didn't ask for perfection. If you would take the time to read, instead of just spewing

you'd see that.

The deal is, I'm not asking for radical change in one fell swoop. You'd have to actually read rather than ASSUME you know know what I think to know that though.

What I don't want however, is something that does more long term harm than good. That's what I believe this does, for reasons I wrote explicitly about, in great detail, with references, over four separate articles.

That doesn't make me right of course. Many things are things that NOONE can prove - they come down to opinions and best guesses. I know this. But don't throw that shit around about perfection because it doesn't stick. You can use that on someone else. It doesn't stick for me, because my concerns are different.

See part 4 where I talk about all the compromises we were more than willing to accept in the name of reform.

This isn't about perfect vs. good. This is about a bill I believe will do long term harm, NOT good.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Ok I will now go for political reality, give me a whip count

this is the whip count we had.

This is reality.

In time we will know if we are correct, and chances are both of us will be right... that is US History speaking here. Now it will be how right you are and how right I am. Given US history and how slow change is... I am willing to bet that Muricans will love them this and will demand it improves the way other social programs have...

And you know what? This is what both the RNC and the Insurance Companies rightly fear.

So you may consider this bullshit, I want a whip count. And that is political reality.

[Political Heretic]

64. I can't give you a whip count on something that was never an option.

:shrug:

Can we get to work now?

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Thanks, that was the political reality

and as to getting to work... this is generational... but this is the reality that you need to understand... and I need to understand. What YOU AND I may want, is not necessarily what you can get a whip count for in DC. There are many reasons for that... and you know what? They lay in the Constitution. It is a deeply flawed document, but I don't expect it to change any time soon, and allow for more than TWO parties, for example.

[Political Heretic]

66. No you misunderstand. It wasn't because it was not politically possible.

It was because it was political decided that certain things were not desired. Cost regulations, regulatory oversight, responsible level subsidies - these things weren't "impossible" - they were never fought for. I don't even think leadership even wanted them.

This is why I question the notion that we'll get a "public option" later. There was more than enough momentum for a public option, and we had the votes in the house and damn near had the reconciliation votes in the Senate - it was leadership that kept shutting it down over and over again - for a year.

That seems to be a big obstacle in the way of going that route for forward progress.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. It was decided the same way

the 1965 bill was decided, and SCHIP and Social Security.

They knew how to do whip counts. They knew that they did not have the votes, no way, no how for the more "liberal" provisions.

We want one thing... most Americans want the same thing you and I want. and hell we have two models to achieve it... tricare and Medicare...

Problem is that most Americans live on both coasts... then there is all this fly over country where the cold war has never truly ended. And although a whole generation has come of age and they even vote, for whom them are commies boogie man don't work any more, yet these kids are STILL a minority of voters in these places... I mean for them Commies what are those? A new brand of jeans? The problem is that they still have enough folks who still vote for them family values, and protecting the family from them commies still counts and you and I are commies. So until we can get that little problem solved, progress will be slow and whip counts will be what they are. That is rather conservative... if slowly moving in the right direction.

And yes, I had a Political Science Instructor, who was quite the rightie, and a Company man, once explain this to me. As I was very confused as to why the MAJORITY in this country could not exactly get some things passed. As he put it, until you solve the problem of the middle of the country, where Democrats should be Republicans and Republicans are to the right of Atilah the Hun, you got a problem.

As to why our people still vote the way they do... well if you are a democrat coming from oh North Dakota... and you want to keep your seat, you vote rather conservative. It does not hurt who gives money to whom, but by the nature of the beast these people come from very CONSERVATIVE districts, and they VOTE CONSERVATIVE, and no way no how you can get a whip count for a medical reform that includes silly shit like Single Payer or PO, not now. This explains people like Bart Stupak... he is a Democrat, a CONSERVADEM, just as much as Congresswoman Lee who is close to my left. Now I will be honest, if we got around to fixin' them problems in the Constitution that force but two parties... and for some magical reason we had four or five... you think it is difficult whip counts now? Just wait... it will be even more fun. On the bright side, coalitions will make watching C-SPAN far more entertaining. On the down side, due to the nature of the US, I fear the left will be even less able to do things. See them coasts, and protection of minorities and how many seats you get.

Why do you think mostly rural states tend to dictate a lot of how policy gets made?

For the record, that professor was to the right of Atila the Hun, but you know what? He was a hell of a political analyst, and KNEW his stuff. He compared at one point, not that popular by the way, the US Government to the Chinese system at a structural (aka theoretical) level. There are some important differences, but in some ways, it is a mistake, as he explained it, to look at this as two parties. Rather it is easier to look at it as regions. No matter what party a candidate comes from, you can pretty much tell what that person's votes will be by the nature of the district. And this is what a whip count is all about, and why change is so damn freakingly slow, maddeningly slow. The difference is that we actually move faster than the Chinese, when we want to.

And you asked why Conservadems vote the way they do... I just answered it for you... He did, decades ago.

[treestar]

61. Like what?

What bills?

[Political Heretic]

68. Off the top of my head.. TANF and FMLA

[RoyGBiv]

5. Get on the bus or go home ...

Those on the bus have work to do to start agitating to make this thing better. If you don't want to help, get out of my way.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. As uninformed as it is

like it or not THIS IS HISTORIC

[ixion]

10. We agree it's historic

but disagree on the context of that history.

[RoyGBiv]

11. But not your own facts ...

Good evening to you.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. That is another person with a history degree or two

[ixion]

17. Yeah, I have a couple degress of my own

but that's for the condescension.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. I doubt in Hstory

sorry.

[ixion]

25. No, not history, but that means nothing

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. It meanst a lot in this case

the major details of HOW REFORM IS ACHIEVED IN THE US are eluding you.

Mention ONCE when reform was done in one fell swoop... JUST ONE... Good luck. Not even the road to Independence was immediate. It was GENERATIONAL...

This is a generation long battle, and this is the first step. See this is what US history is like. Just trying to clue you in. So your choice is simple, pick your marbles and go home, or join us.

[ixion]

34. I'm looking at it in a bigger picture

as in the Fall of Rome. The difference is that I don't see this as 'reform'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. And if you look at the bigger picture this may actually

lead to a softer landing at the end of Empire... but you really misunderstand what is the Long Duree of US History. Sorry for the technical term. (And I am transliterating from the French too)

And until the Long Duree of the US breaks, good luck changing that pattern.

You can try, but I promise pain and failure.

[ixion]

47. Yeah, I'm untroubled by technical terms...

but if it makes you feel better to think that I'm frightened by 'technical' terms, well, you just go right on ahead with your delusion.

And the French phrase you translated was "Longue durée"

Next time, just try "long term."

[Political Heretic]

41. I do.

In fact, my degree is more specialized.

Holding a Masters Degree in Social Work, I was required to be a deep student of the history of American social welfare policy, requiring exhaustive study and reading.

And it also happens to be my personal passion. Which means I still haven't stopped studying history of social welfare and social welfare policy.

And I happen to disagree with you. But I don't think that's because you are stupid and historically ignorant. I think its because we disagree. You could stand to get rid of some of the arrogance though. I'm as educated and versed as you are. I have a different opinion. It happens.

[Political Heretic]

37. I agree. Too bad making things better will ultimately mean scrapping much of what just passed.

:(

[Dappleganger]

21. I'm sorry you feel that way

and hope that one day you'll be able to look back and see that you were wrong.

[ixion]

27. I'll remember to look you up when this cluster f**k matures

and I'll expect the same from you.

[Dappleganger]

29. Okay...

fair is fair.

[goclark]

3. All Democrats should be happy tonight!

:party: for sure this one is happy.

And my 91 yrs. young Mom is dancing around the room,she is adorable.

[Dappleganger]

24. That is great!

You're blessed to have your mom to celebrate this moment in time w/you. :)

[treestar]

16. So cool to see history being made

:bounce:

[Spazito]

18. Absolutely historic!

Congrats to all!

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. And like the Social Security Act, the fight starts NOW

to improve on this.

This is the nature of the beast in the United States.

[Dappleganger]

26. The work's just begun...

that's for sure!

[goclark]

31. Thank you Mr. President and all the supporters

who made the calls and kept this issue front and cfenter!

:bounce:

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I am on a first name basis with the staff

I actually considered sending them a Holiday card, and apologize for all the crap I gave them

[RoyGBiv]

30. Absolutely ...

The one solid fact about supporting progressive measures is that when you get one thing done, all you've really accomplished is to create more work for yourself.

But I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Political Heretic]

62. I agree with you. So can we stop arguing about a bill that's already passed in our other thread?

You're never going to change my opinion that this is a bill that will do more harm than good in the long run.

I'm never going to change your opinion that while this bill wasn't perfect, it was good enough to warrant passing.

But we seem to both agree that the next step is working hard to make it BETTER.....


So uh... I guess that means we're going to be partners for the next several years......

Maybe we should stop pissing in each others coffee and get to work?

[TexasObserver]

36. It's historic. I hope it turns out to be good.

It's done. I'm willing to see what happens, and try to make it better as time passes.

The president and the party needed to prove they could pass something that will be called Health Care Reform, and they have achieved that goal. It remains to be seen the extent to which it is reform.

Thankfully, it allows the president and the party to move on from health care to other topics. We have elections to win in November, and they aren't going to win themselves.

[Odin2005]

48. The American People are betrayed again by DLC Corporatists.

[goclark]

57. If this is what betrayal looks like

I'm all for it ~ thanks for reminding me how important a victory this is ~

[Political Heretic]

59. I'm sure you are.

-Insert Demographic information here-

[Swamp Rat]

60. HOORAY!!!

:woohoo: