A Promise to the American People.

[Skinner]

It's been said a million times here that this bill is not perfect. Like most people on DU, I would have preferred a single-payer system, or at least a public option. But even if it is less than I had hoped for, this is still a historic piece of legislation. Quite possibly the most important piece of legislation of my 38-year lifetime.

For the first time ever, the people of this country are making this promise to our fellow citizens: Affordable health coverage for everyone. Only time will tell if the bill can actually deliver on this promise. But now that the promise has been made, it's going to be very difficult for anyone to take it back.

It is inevitable that this legislation will not work exactly as it is intended. Problems will arise that will need to be fixed. I do not know what those problems will be, and I have no clue how they will be fixed. But I have little doubt that most will be fixed when they arise. Health care is now the responsibility of the United States Congress. The promise has been made. If they try to renege, they do so at their peril. Their only choice is to do what it takes to make it work.

Congratulations to President Obama, and to Speaker Pelosi, and to every Member of Congress who had the guts to do the right thing. I hope this will provide some much-needed momentum for even more progressive change.

To all the members of DU, I want to thank you for keeping this debate mostly civil. I think the tone here over the last few weeks has been better than it could have been -- indeed, it's been significantly better than it was just two months ago on this very website. Still, there are some pretty deep wounds here right now, and going forward I hope we can make an effort to remember those things that unite us rather than divide us. And remember that even though we may have disagreed on this, we did so -- passionately -- because we all want what is best for this country.

[FSogol]

1. K & R n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

2. thank YOU Skinner, and all the DU family.

:grouphug:

k&R

[Name removed]

237. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bitwit1234]

258. I think Democrats again proved their difference from republicans

We have class, compassion and feelings for the poor and needy. Three things republicans do not have and will never have. They are corporate bought and paid for and they will always be.

[Oceansaway]

3. K&R...n/t

[madokie]

4. This was a much needed win

I love our President.

[Dr Morbius]

13. This Obama guy...

...is already the nation's best President since Kennedy. I think he may someday stand next to FDR, one of the nation's three greatest Presidents.

I had high expectations of an Obama Presidency, and while I haven't been ecstatic, I haven't been disappointed either. The man delivers (albeit slowly).

[WeekendWarrior]

15. With all due respect

I have to disagree on the "slowly" part of your comment. It has taken Obama a year to do what the Dems haven't been able to do for decades. I'd say that's pretty fast.

[Dr Morbius]

27. Yeah, that's fair.

But I was thinking about the fourteen months it took him to come up with a recommendation to fix NCLB, and every year we fail to fix NCLB is another year of education wasted. And of course there's so much more to do!

You know, I respect and admire the guy and I admit, I couldn't do the job as well (not something I believed under Clinton or either Bush). Maybe he has pulled off a minor miracle here and it's wrong of me to complain it took too long. But the bar - the bar the President has to clear - isn't set by me or the rest of the American people or even history. The bar is set by the demands of the era; if America needs the President to solve a dozen problems at once, then that's the bar the President has to clear. President Obama came to office amid a flurry of crises: two wars, both off the budget; unregulated markets and an economy in the crapper; spiraling healthcare costs, and of course he has to undo all the harm Bush did during his two terms (like NCLB). It's not fair to expect the President to handle all of it all at once, and solve everything.

But that's what we need him to do.

I expect he's equal to it. In many ways, he's a remarkable fellow.

[druidity33]

254. hey, welcome to DU!

good to have you here.

:hi:

[geckosfeet]

240. Agreed. Can't wait for the second act.

[harmonicon]

68. definitely the best one-term president since Carter (nt)

[bluescribbler]

111. I hope you're wrong about that.

the whole one term President thing, I mean.

[harmonicon]

129. so do I (nt)

[sallyseven]

157. If you think that the repuks

would do a better job then vote for them. If not then stop being negative. Lets help Obama he deserve it. Rather have McConnell aka "the devil" or Bohener "Mr. Tan Man" ? I find it odd that both David Dreier and Bohener have year round tans. I know what Drier is and his lovely boyfriend. Boehner the same? Family values all, so they say.

[defendandprotect]

167. We think that Democrats who support citizens rather than corporations would do a better job....

Wouldn't that be a nice change . . . !!!

This is a wictory for corporations/lobbyists and DLC/Corporate Democrats!!

[bkozumplik]

201. your unhelpful style

Sallyseven,

"If you think the Repukes would do a better job then vote for them. If not then stop being negative"

Thats a pretty rude comment. I believe people are still allowed free speech, and that includes criticism of our own leadership. It certainly appears painfully evident that this administration needs criticism to stay on the straight path. Its not just when we are choosing Repuke or Dem and otherwise STFU. People with your opinion are the ones who made this whole process so nasty. Take a look at yourself. You are part of the problem.

Furthermore, I'll be my own judge of what Obama "deserve" (sic). I think he deserves almost every ounce of criticism he has garnered so far from this site. Rahm, the extended wars, pharma, his picks for finance leads, failure to chase the bushco criminals. He deserves my boot in his arse for those things, in my, and MANY peoples opinion. And this "We can fix it later" canard-- we will see on that won't we... I'd bet you money this is going to turn into a windfall for insurance and a problem for almost everyone else.

Do you know what a pyrric victory is sallyseven?
Let me help. A pyrric victory is what we just saw in the HCR endgame:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

[defendandprotect]

166. Wondering when . . .

someone would break that "Isn't Disneyland wonderful!" mood going on there ...

Humorous and sad at the same time!!

[Ikonoklast]

256. Yes, yes you are.

Relentlessly negative and wanting this president to fail.

[defendandprotect]

304. On the contrary, everyone is rooting for and pushing this president to do the right thing --

forthe sake of our nation and our citizens . . .

and so many of them in dire straights and dire need of health care!

The insurance companies which Obama described as "evil" are the very people

he has put in charge of this new health care deform.


Everyone one of us will be hoping that we are wrong, however --

and that some good will come from this bill -- some help for our sick and ill citizens.


What we want to succeed is universal health care -- not a tiered/unequal system based

on INCOME TESTING.

What we want to succeed is a system where the "evil-doers" are not put in charge!

What we want is an end to presidents making private deals with corporations whether it

is Dick Cheney making secret deals with the Energy Industry/Enron -- or whether it is

a president with a "D" after his name making secret deals with insurance companies and

Big Pharma!


Take a break from the puerile thinking you display and do a bit of serious thinking --

[whathehell]

197. I'm not at all sure he WILL be one-term...When the people start to

see the benefits of this bill..and yes there ARE benefits they will see right now..

Within Ninety Days:

..No pre-existing conditions for kids. Period.

..No "recissions". Period.

..A Pool to which ADULTS with pre-existing conditions can go for health care where they can NOT be turned down.

..Young Adult children up to TWENTY SIX will be COVERED under their parents insurance.


What are the Repukes going to campaign on?....Taking all of that back?..I don't think so.

[Mithreal]

199. +1 Regressives are the gift to corporate Dems that keeps giving

I agree with you.

Batshit crazy is not very appealing and sane conservatives have already found refuge and it isn't with the Republican party.

[whathehell]

245. You bet.

Thanks for your input.

[paulkienitz]

300. still, corporate dems > corporate repubs

The core problem with conservatism is that once you invest in defending traditional cultural mores, you also invest in defending existing privilege, so you get co-opted by the powerful right from the git-go. A corporatist system that's all into religious know-nothingism and lawnorder and sexual repression has no limits to how feudal it can get. But a corporatist system that's got its political hooks into a group that rhetorically stands for education and progress and working people's opportunity has got some self-limiting factors.

[paulkienitz]

301. worst case scenario

The worst that can happen, in terms of the Democratic party becoming corporatized, is that the GOP becomes a fringe group of nuts, the Dems become a moderate-conservative Wall Street party, and we end up with a new liberal party. As worst cases go, that's not too bad. It'll take a while for the new conservative D's to shed their semi-progressive rhetoric, and the hard right wing votes will be split.

I think it's much more likely, though, that the R's will eventually start finding some reasonable candidates and start reassembling themselves, and we'll be back to the traditional balance. Then they'll woo back many of the corporate greedheads, which is good because not only will it get their corrupting influence away from our candidates, it will leave them less powerful for some time because the taint of the teabaggers will take a while to be forgotten.

[Hawkowl]

219. No rate controls

You can't be turned down, but we still depend on the "market" to set the insurance rate. This is where people are going to be enraged. What good is insurance if your mandated fine is less than 2 weeks of premium?

However, the OP still has a valid point. The genie is out of the bottle and people are going to demand reform at an ever increasing pace. I believe the people will focus their rage on controlling premium costs and further insurance regulation will follow. However, the fix it later "mantra" is going to require the sacrifice of many a foot dragging politician's career. I think Obama, ironically, will be one of them. His kow towing to big pharma and the insurance mafia is going to be highlighted to his detriment. He may be using this bill as a "foot in the door" technique, but having watched Obama since the early 90's, I doubt it. I think he will not touch health care for the rest of his term.

[whathehell]

242. Just curious...Why do you think he will not touch it for the rest of his term?

[bkozumplik]

231. poor, poor health insurance companies...

from Yahoo finance today:

"Tenet Healthcare Corp. (THC - News) gained 9% in the wake of passage of a health-care overhaul after a year of debate. Health Management Associates Inc. (HMA - News) rose 11.3%. "

Not bad for a single day. Not many companies become 10% more valuable overnight.
yeah we won, huh. Do these numbers mean anything to anybody? Or is everyone too drunk on champagne to notice?





"All thats left for Americans to do is play each other for the suckers we have all become"
--Anonymous Russian Immigrant to the US

[whathehell]

241. Is this a grouse?....

If so, I'd suggest you try thinking positive..So THC gained 9% in the wake of passage of a health care overhaul...Maybe they'd have gained 20 percent if we hadn't passed it.

The point is, they were making profits before..At least they have now A. lost their monopoly..B. come under greater scrutiny...C. been put in the situation of "playing fair"...or at least quite a bit MORE fair than they have been.

[onpatrol98]

275. One Term?

:wow:

I think he'll survive two terms. I'm not so sure about the others.

[harmonicon]

290. we have no idea right now...

I'm sure if things are the way they are now in 2 more years he would be up against a wall, and this healthcare bill isn't going to help matters. Schmucks like myself will keep voting for Democrats because we'd rather have them than people who would actually make things MUCH MUCH worse instead of just dragging out the status quo.

However, I was responding to this: "I think he may someday stand next to FDR, one of the nation's three greatest Presidents." Give me a fucking break. That's like projecting that he'll "someday" give the state of the union address from the moon which he traveled to on his solar-powered personal space-plane.

[gimama]

5. Bless You/thank YOU, Skinner!

for creating/maintaining this sweeet, safe place called DU..
& thanks, too, to the Mods, for ALL they do, at ALL hours, every day.

What an amazing COMMUNITY here! OK, group (((hug)))!

[Name removed]

236. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bkozumplik]

238. I second that

Off topic sorry, but I can't tell you how thankful I am for this site. Well done Skinner.

Thanks a lot.

[depakid]

6. That's responsible and insightful spin

I can ethically repeat the social contract aspects contained in that.

[Mithreal]

203. +1

[lpbk2713]

7. I'm glad our side prevailed.

No one should have to die for the lack of adequate medical care.

[Mithreal]

204. We aren't there yet. People will still die for lack of adequate medical care.

I can sorta stomach that this is a step of some kind, but those days are not over. I don't think anyone even tried to spin that they were.

[leftstreet]

8. 'If they try to renege, they do so at their peril.'

Okay...that's a positive

And ultimately that's all they really understand

K&R

[rhett o rick]

9. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Time to start on trying to "fix" this bill. Support Alan Grayson's bill. nm

[robinblue]

281. I do support his proposal and have sent it to all I know.

[Lifelong Protester]

10. Thank you for the kind words, and keeping this place up and

running. I agree with all you said, and am happy to have this place where a lot of very interesting folks hang out.

We needed the start, we needed the momentum...

[Dappleganger]

11. Hang on, it's gonna be a bumpy ride...

but we're going someplace very special!

[Mithreal]

205. But not everyone gets a safety belt or even a seat.

[ixion]

12. I wish I could agree with you on this, Skinner

but I cannot.

I am solidly for REAL health care reform, but I don't see this piece of legislation as anything even vaguely resembling reform. Quite the opposite. I think it's going to hurt the Dems in the next election cycle(s).

[defendandprotect]

168. K&R your post --

[Plucketeer]

184. I tend to agree

Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic whilst adding the extra effort of bailing with coffee cans.

[Mithreal]

200. Not everyone loses.

[kestrel91316]

272. Doom and gloom. You make it sound like wishful thinking on your part.

Do rethink that.

[Rage Inc.]

14. K&R

[Radical Activist]

16. I don't want the next George W. Bush that comes along in charge of my health care.

We may be better off without single-payer. This bill paves the way for more non-profit, member owned coops, which is what I prefer anyway.

This bill was about laying a groundwork and taking the next steps will take plenty of work.

[RaleighNCDUer]

57. The president would no more be 'in charge' of your healthcare

under single payer, than he currently is in charge of your finances (IRS) or retirement (SS).

There will be no 'next steps' - health care is DONE. If it ain't in this bill as it is, it ain't gonna happen, not for another generation.

[paulkienitz]

270. "DONE"? Not if enough people support the Grayson bill

If the Grayson bill gets anywhere near passing the House, it will be much more popular than the existing HCR was, and there will be far less excuse to resist it than the current mess has. It will be very hard to spin opposition to the Grayson medicare-based public option. It's simple, it's popular, and the only argument against it (now that the rest of HCR is a done deal) is tired red-baiting that won't fool anyone except teabaggers.

If the Grayson bill gets any good momentum going, those who don't want it to pass (in particular, corporate dems) are going to know, far more clearly than they did with the previous bill, that if they oppose it they will be punished by voters. It might actually be able to pass! And if it doesn't, the backlash that some people fear will strike the D's in the next election could be turned around and be stuck back onto conservatives and corporatites where it belongs. People didn't like the current HCR because it became muddled and confusing and compromised (in all senses) and made it hard to tell whether to favor it or oppose it. A simple public-option bill like Grayson's will have none of those drawbacks. If it doesn't pass, I think there will be penalties for its opponents, and that will mean that one election cycle later, it can be alive again for another go.

The only hope of the corporate side to avoid this is to try to sweep the bill under the rug and keep it out of the media so people don't get excited about it. Given how much support it already has in the house that may be hard to pull off.

So I think further meaningful reform is far from dead, and further action is going to help the party back out of the hole it's put itself in with its recent corporate kowtowing. About the only way this could go wrong is if... if Rahm somehow gets Obama come out as publicly opposed to Grayson. If that happens, wave goodbye to everything.

[Radical Activist]

285. Or FEMA?

"Hekuva job brownie"
Don't you know the routine? Appoint someone incompetent to fuck it up, and when it goes wrong say its because "big gubment" doesn't work. Just like they did with FEMA and Katrina. That's exactly what they'll do to sabotage public health care as soon as they get the chance.

[Bicoastal]

17. Whatever happened to the immortal phrase "Error: You have already recommened this post?"

Ah well. :hi:

[pundaint]

18. I didn't get any promise from this passing. There is a Promise to Fix it right away. There

were some promises by Mr. Obama during the campaign that remain glaringly unmet. The only promise in the passage is a promise to further impose for-profit insurers between me and my doctors.

[Myrina]

109. +10

... and the promise to separate you from approximately 30% of your income, with nothing guaranteed in return (beware of insurance companies' small print - I know, I work for one).

[BumRushDaShow]

19. K&R

:kick:

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. Sorry Skinner.

I'm off the bus for this one. I cannot cheer for this. I cannot. It is the day I was told by my own party that I am worth slightly less than the rest of the population. I'm happy for those who are happy, but don't ask me to cheer for something that isn't what it was supposed to be. Thank you.

[SergeStorms]

73. +1

But I don't feel like I'm off the bus. I feel as if I'm under the bus, along with countless other people that helped get Obama elected.

[Tansy_Gold]

86. Add me to that list. Under the bus and totally forgotten

Worse yet, now that I know the DU admins are cheering for this, I am pretty sure my voice will not be allowed to be heard with the same tolerance as those who are celebrating.


Tansy Gold

[JTFrog]

88. Bull. "If you believe there are any issues on which you are not permitted to criticize Barack Obama"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5524913#5530848

It is our intention that ALL substantive criticism of Barack Obama be permitted here. If you believe there are any issues on which you are not permitted to criticize Barack Obama (or any Democrat) please post in this thread and tell me the specific issue -- I will gladly address your concerns. Similarly, if anyone persists in spreading the falsehood that criticism of Barack Obama is now forbidden on DU, I believe it is not unreasonable to ask that person to please identify what substantive criticism they are no longer able to share.

Folks may not get away with the "cheering/cheerleader" insults and name calling, but claiming they are being silenced is ridiculous.

[Tansy_Gold]

103. My experience has been the other way around

I haven't seen too much name-calling on the part of those who have been attempting to illuminate some of the shortcomings of the bill, but I have seen a LOT of name-calling from the supporters. I myself have been called names, and I've not been shy about hitting the alert button. Some of those posts have been deleted, some have not.

It's like being in a class where the teacher has a big Yankees pennant hanging on the wall. If you're a Boston fan, you know you're on the wrong side and you're always going to wonder if the lower score on your paper is because you wrote a lousy paper or because the teacher just doesn't like you because you don't root for the same team.

At least now I know which team the teacher roots for




Tansy Gold

[JTFrog]

108. Everyone sees what they want to see.

You still haven't identified what substantive criticism you are no longer able to share. :shrug:

[Tansy_Gold]

120. I didn't know that I had to.

I was merely expressing my sentiments over finding out that the administration of DU, or at least 1/3 of it, is openly supportive of the passage of this bill, believes that it will prove to be the beginning of better things, and believes that those who were reluctant yesterday to pass anything stronger will somehow now be willing to do so today.

Now, if Skinner had sent me a PM and asked what I felt I would no longer be allowed to say, I would probably give him the same answer I'm giving you. It's not a matter of what specific things I won't be allowed to say -- like some laundry list of forbidden words -- but rather an atmosphere that precludes truly open discussion.

Yes, I know what the 'rules' say about criticism of Obama. I also know that I've been called a teabagger many, many times over the past week or so, and so have many others who have dared to withhold support for this bill. It reached the point last night where I couldn't even keep up with it on some threads.

Will those who have supported the bill in the past now have free rein to tell us who didn't that we were WRONG because the House passed it without any puke support and if we're against it we must also be pukes? Is that the attitude that's going to prevail here?

Just in this thread, it seems to.

Why, for instance, do I have to justify my feelings to you? My feelings, my fears, are about what may happen in the future. I don't have a crystal ball and I don't know what the supporters are going to say to those who continue to criticize or ask questions or wonder or complain. But I do know that I am going to think twice about what I write if it's criticism, because I know it will open me up to attack.

For the record, I've been criticizing Obama at least since November 24, 2008, when he announced Tim Geithner as his choice for Treasury. My post on that subject is still available at DU. Since then, I've been called a puma, been accused of lamenting Hillary's loss of the nomination, etc. Yete I've dismissed those accusations and defended my point of view.

The fact that I'm still required to defend it on another issue entirely doesn't bother me, but when my point of view merely addressed the DU Admin's position and how it may affect future posts, I'm not sure why I have to justify myself to JTFrog.


Tansy Gold

[JTFrog]

123. My post had nothing to do with your "feelings". You made a false claim.

"Worse yet, now that I know the DU admins are cheering for this, I am pretty sure my voice will not be allowed to be heard with the same tolerance as those who are celebrating."

I was just pointing out that Skinner has made it clear that that is just not the way it works around here.

[Jakes Progress]

131. Crappy shot when Skinner has just suggested behaving.

[Tansy_Gold]

147. thanks JP

But I think you and I both know where this discussion is heading.


TG

[bkozumplik]

235. Jakes Progress, about your sig line

"The worst day of the Obama administration is still far better than any day of george bush. (Added: But that is a very, very low bar for a successful presidency.)"

I'd say measuring ourselves by the yardstick of our enemies is a dangerous and flawed idea. We should, to a large extent, ignore the narrative the Rethugs try to point at us, and just stand for what we believe in. We should strongly rebut, but we shouldnt define ourselves by their lead, ever. Especially when you are dealing with liars and lunatics who have no honor, you shouldnt let them lead or really participate equally in anything, ever. We should lead by example, and make sure to point out the flaws of the enemy, but otherwise ignore their petty marketing. When someone compares the repubs to the dems, we should laugh in their faces and shut them down, not try to argue whatever points the repubs want to argue.

We shouldn't be asking, "Aren't the dems better than the alternative?" We should be asking, "whats the right thing to do, and how do we get it done?"
Defining yourself as not as bad as that other guy is a weak, weak thing.

I feel like sometimes many people here almost have some sort of battle PTSD thing going about the last election-- they are still living it-- they havent moved onto ruling, they are still competing with the rethugs, first and foremost.

These days being a democrat unfortunately isnt the straightforward values proposition it used to seem to be, is it. We need it to be straightforward again, or we will start losing big, and be in the minority again while the repubs torch the place.

[Tansy_Gold]

139. No, I didn't make a "false claim"

I said I'm pretty sure my voice of dissent won't be tolerated with quite the same openness as those who agree with the DU administration. it had nothing to do with the rules but rather with the atmosphere established when one of the DU Admins comes out with a position on an issue.

Look, when a post gets deleted, there's no record of it. All that shows up is a "deleted message" and a false-front tombstone. I've had posts pulled and I've seen the so-called poster shown as a tombstone even though that poster (me) is obviously not sent to the great freeperville in the sky. there's no real distinction between a pulled post and a banned poster.

But unless one keeps a copy of each and every post one makes --- is there such a function on DU? If so, I never knew of it -- how does one argue with a moderator over which post gets pulled and why?

When a moderator knows the Admin is on one side, what's to keep that moderator from supporting the Admin's pov at least on that issue?

Again, it doesn't have to be in written policy. We all know how racism works; it doesn't have to be codified in law to exist and to function very effectively.

I know now that at least one part of the DU administration supports this bill and believes it is the beginning of bigger and better things. I will have an automatic and unconscious and very effective editor on my posts that are critical of the so-called health care reform program. I will also have an automatic and unconscious and very effective editor on ALL of my posts that are critical of the Obama administration.

But like the progressives who, whether in congress or out here on the street, have nowhere else to go but the Democratic party, neither do we have anywhere else to do go for discussion.

I'll crawl back into my SMW hole, because at least there I don't have JTFrog insisting -- though not demanding -- that I justify myself.



Tansy Gold

[JTFrog]

140. Oh the drama...

:eyes:

[Jakes Progress]

151. It is nice to have a tangible post of proof of

Tansy's point. Thank you for supplying it.

[JTFrog]

161. Proof of what?

What are you talking about?

I merely pointed out that the poster made a false claim and persists in spreading the falsehood that criticism of Barack Obama is being stifled here.

Comparing DU moderation to racism is quite frankly nothing short of being overly dramatic and completely ridiculous. :shrug:

[Jakes Progress]

162. dupe

[Jakes Progress]

165. I know you don't get it.

That's the point. Don't worry about it. I did thank you.

It was just such unaware posting behavior that was the point.

[JTFrog]

Right.

I wasn't calling names or trying to silence anyone. I was attempting to refute a false claim.

If someone wants to comment or criticize without any type of response whatsoever, they should just blog and disable comments.

One thing I do know is drama. :eyes:

[Jakes Progress]

185. Again. Much appreciated.

We could never make the point as well as your posts.

[JTFrog]

190. That's what I thought.

You've got nothing.

Pot meet Kettle.

[Mithreal]

207. .

[Jakes Progress]

298. And you would be the kettle?

[Mithreal]

193. +1 well said and justified

[Ms. Toad]

97. I feel I am under the bus on many issues BUT

I am still thrilled by this this historic (FAR less than perfect)legislation - although the claims that everyone will have access to insurance are (1) years off and (2) somewhat exaggerated, millions of people (including everyone in my family) who has been told - sorry, you're not healthy enough to have access to health insurance - will be able to purchase it at prices in parity with those who are deemed to be healthy, and those with low income will be subsidized.

Best of all - my 19 year old daughter who is currently forcing herself to be a full time student because that is her only access to a means to cover a $60,000 a year health care bill - will be able to drop to part time status (or just take some time off and allow her body to find an equilibrium she can live with until it is bad enough for her to be transplant eligible. She might even be able to consider studying something she loves rather than forcing herself to study something she hates but which is more likely to find her a job with health care benefits.

I'm still pissed at Obama for throwing me and my family under the bus on anything related to GLBT issues, and have the tire tracks to back it up.
I'm still pissed at Obama for his continuation of the Patriot Act and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and a number of other bad Bush policies.

But - I'm thrilled that we finally have a major change in insurance companies' ability to reject people, at will, refuse to cover pre-existing conditions, drop people if they become ill, cap lifetime coverage at less than my daughter (and others) need to survive, and charge whatever they choose for coverage they do offer.

[dionysus]

98. .

:cry:

[Jakes Progress]

130. Point proven.

[dionysus]

141. .

:cry::cry:

[Jakes Progress]

153. Again. Thank you. Your childishness is duly noted.

[Mithreal]

187. It's strong in some.

[defendandprotect]

172. Agree -- disappointing --

This is a victory for corporations/lobbyists and their DLC/Corporate-Demcorats --

and I'd be much more comfortable if the administration were acknowledging that --

Skinner did make clear that he wanted single payer --

the rest of the rosy outlook after that doesn't really work.

[theFrankFactor]

265. +1 I'm With You.

[tbyg52]

261. +1000 nt

[scentopine]

99. This bill is historic for all the wrong reasons -nt

[Jakes Progress]

128. Dupe

[Marr]

159. I'm with you. n/t

[tango-tee]

206. I'm with you 100%.

Sigh.

[RoyGBiv]

21. K&R

[HughMoran]

22. Yes, this is just the beginning

...but the historical nature of this beginning will be remembered for the rest of our lives.

[Mithreal]

195. This is the best possible spin. I also like the idea of a promise to the future

but we can't use the future as an excuse not to do what needs done.

And I wonder if the general public is going to accept a future promise as anything but an excuse for not doing what we sent Dems to do, you know, hear the voices of average Americans.

I am very conflicted about celebrating this. I realize some of my fellow DU'ers believe anything that insured more people was a step in the right direction but it was never about insurance for most of us.

[graywarrior]

23. !

:fistbump:

[laughingliberal]

24. Thank you for that. It was lovely. nt

[saltpoint]

25. Rec'd.

[jaysunb]

26. Let's beware, the "dead enders" are out there.

They could be even more dangerous now. :evilfrown:

[Mithreal]

55. That would be the folks who say SP or comprehensive affordable quality PO available to everyone is

a dead end? Or are you referring to other "dead enders?" I have seen that phrase but I guess I never picked up on its meaning.

[jaysunb]

278. Republicans. n/t

[eridani]

28. The simple fact that it needs to be fixed means that it will never be fixed

Every single real improvement will be put on the garbage pile with HR 676. The excuse will be "But we already DID health care."

[readmoreoften]

29. +1. It should've been done right even if it had to be rammed down the Republican throats.

I don't understand how people think forcing people to buy insurance is going to be popular. It's not. I think it will be okay until the fines kick in. I also think the Republicans are going to get into office and dismantle this--or make it completely unbearable.

[defendandprotect]

152. IRS will do the forcing!!! They will take 2% of your income if you don't sign up!!

[Political Heretic]

31. 30 years from now there will be a "fix" that is full of as much weak-ass capitulation as this "fix"

:(

[Political Heretic]

30. Sadly, I believe you are deeply mistaken. And our children will be paying the price.

This is what happens when politicians care more about political victories and appeasing financial money-backers than they do about the long term consequences of their capitulations.

It's also what happens when their constituents care more about beating the other guys than they do understanding long term consequences.

In the end all we've done with this legislation is punted the problem down field. In the short term, many Americans will see their ability to get insurance made easier. In the long run, those same Americans will be right back where we are today, in the midst of a crisis of out of control costs and unafforable care in the long run.

That's what happens when you strip all meaningful cost control mechanisms and writing a bunch of handouts to industry.

So yeah.... let's get to work. I agree. It's just a shame that our work was just made that much HARDER by Democrats rather than easier.

EDIT - I recommend your thread anyway, as a gesture of solemn congratulations.

[readmoreoften]

33. +1

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. Thank you so much for being so eloquent PH.

:applause:

[amborin]

43. +1000 i fear this hollow "victory" forecloses the possiblity of genuine health care reform

what was historic was the window of opportunity open to Obama and Dems, right after the election;

the populace was anticipating change and willing to stand behind Obama, and Dems had majorities in both houses

alas, we've seen promise after promise reneged upon; and the cynical manner in which the PO was abandoned without so much as a passing glance was a kick in the face to all the voters who worked hard to elect Obama and had put their trust in him.

this bill is a cynical piece of legislation which will help some people but hurt many, many more in both the short and long term

the worst consquence of all: it places Americans' healthcare firmly under the control of huge corporations; it tremendously advances the corporate takeover of American society

[eridani]

65. Yes. The insurance they get will enable them to have their kids killed like the Sarkisians did

There is nothing in the legislation that says that these useless sociopaths are required to pay any particular claim.

[Jakes Progress]

133. Well put. The celebration is out of place.

Since so many here think of government as a football game, we should see that we didn't make a touchdown. Through timidity, fumbles, and missed calls, we have been pushed back to almost our own goal. All we did yesterday is pick up a first down.....barely. There is a long hard battle if we want to truly get health care reform. I fear that many have left the game to attend the victory party, leaving the field to the Corporate Pirates.

[defendandprotect]

154. This is a "win" for right wing corporations and their lobbyists ...

and for Corporate/DLC Democrats!

[woo me with science]

286. +1000

Spot on. Thank you.

[readmoreoften]

32. I respectfully disagree. Glad for the crumbs, but I think forcing people to buy a for-profit product

is disastrous. He could've forced through single payer and the entire nation would've breathed a sigh of relief. The Republicans wouldn't've, but they never would anyway. What did anyone gain in not doing this right the first time?

[Liberty Belle]

49. Yes, you hit the nail on the head.

What if someone can't afford to buy that mandated healthcare? My daughter is already working two jobs to put herself through school.

I lost all my clients who went under in the recession. My husband has an income, but not enough to cover our house and car payments and kid's tuition without mine. Must I now buy insurance instead of paying one of those other bills?

This bill will help some, but hurt others. We should have not have passed a bill that could hurt some people who are not wealthy. A public options should have been the minimum that Dems would accept - Obama promised during the campaign but reneged. I am also very angry about the sell-out of women's rights. So now if a woman needs an abortion to save her life and she's bought one of these plans that the govt. makes her buy, I guess she'll just die.

[Skittles]

53. CORRECT

[PBass]

54. Obama is not going to "force" anything through.

maybe you missed this -- Obama pledged to try to unite the country. "Forcing" through Single Payer has never been a possibility.

Yes, this bill is very compromised, but it also does a lot of good things, and it was the best bill we could get, at this time, with the Congress we have.

You want stronger reforms, lets reduce the influence of lobbyists and get more real liberal Democrats in Congress, lets change the rules on who gets Dems' committee chairmanships, etc.

This bill is CERTAINLY better than nothing, and those were your two choices!!!!

[Mithreal]

64. Please don't propagate the myth of insufficient number of votes.

The Senate had 59 for Medicare buy-in before the Obama ordered cave to Lieberman. We, the people, jammed phone lines and other pressure to bring about 51 supporters in the Senate for PO.

www.whipcongress.com

I get what you want to argue and despite it being a preferred excuse, Obama admitted to rejecting all those ideas folks on the left wanted. But don't take Obama's word for what he did. My Senate leadership Senator's chief of staff told me the same. It was a story the President needed to get out front on, there was too much leaking that it was on him.

The Senate Finance bill was the Obama bill, no? The chairmanship didn't matter.

It's not just the bill that is compromised.

I am ready to move forward, always was. It was not the resolve of Progressives that is in question. If anything we should be thanking each other for not giving up.

[Political Heretic]

79. THANK YOU FOR STANDING UP FOR THE TRUTH ON THIS.

I'm sick of the "we didn't have the votes" lie.

That's what it is. A lie.

I want people to come to terms with the fact that we did have the votes on multiple occasions and every time our party leaders move the goal posts or killed the effort.

The problem isn't that we didn't have the votes. The problem is that our party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the financial elite, and even then some of the "employees" of the part make some noise about doing the people's busines, the "bosses" are right their to BEAT THAT SHIT DOWN INTO THE GROUND

I am fucking sick of it.

[Mithreal]

221. You're welcome. Right back at ya.

[defendandprotect]

156. Again, the "lesser of evils" choices . . .Obama described insurance industry as "evil" . ..???

We had the choice of defying corporate control over health care --

this is simply a win for corporations/lobbyists and DLC Corporate Democrats!

77% of this nation wanted a single payer system similar to MEDICARE FOR ALL --

That they had trust in this president perhaps kept them from getting out in the streets

and demanding it . . .

Even Catholics supported a government run health care system -- 73%+ and they wanted

reproductive services included -- plus contracepiton.

and those Catholics who want abortion included exceed 50% --


The nation was for it --

the corporations/lobbyists/DLC won here . . . not the public.

[snooper2]

208. i like turtles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

[Mithreal]

222. Is that you in the video or your child? Must make grandma proud.

If you are gonna do comedy, you gotta get a lil closer to truth or it just doesn't sting.

Thank you, come again.

[Jax]

56. Thank you for the honesty

:thumbsup:

Thanks readmoreoften.

Alyce

[harmonicon]

71. what did they gain?

Campaign contributions!! That's all they ever care about.

[DesertFlower]

34. K&R.

thank you skinner for making DU a reality.

[Chisox08]

35. I glad something was passed

It's nowhere near what I wanted now the real work begins. The work to fix this bill. I don't want hear lets wait and see how this works. The time to act is now.

[Scurrilous]

37. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Imperialism Inc.]

38. I'm down with some momentum!

Next Stop Climate Change

I really wanted to see a strong public option. Possibly open to all but certainly more than what was in the near useless version that was being considered near the end. I came to believe that perhaps a public plan competing against the private plans might be even better than just straight single payer.

Though I didn't start this way, I became convinced that we have to grab what we can while we can. Congress at this time is a mess and unfortunately that includes a lot of Democrats. As far as the mandate I think it was unavoidable if we want to end pre-existing conditions. It is not reasonable, in the future, to let people choose to wait until they are sick to get coverage.

[Mithreal]

39. Many here were routinely clear that they wanted what was best for THEMSELVES.

What was best for the country was off the table.

I appreciate the sentiments but honesty still counts for something.

[Ardent15]

40. Thanks for the thread, Skinner: but I can't offer my congratulations

I do not support this bill, and I do not believe we have real health care reform because of it.

I wanted health care reform. We, the American people, were promised it. But we got stuck with a health insurance mandate that we will be paying for for generations.

Nevertheless, I recommended your thread because I believe we must continue to have a thoughtful discourse on this.

[Mithreal]

44. True, and the best friends are those who can be honest with you

At least it is so, for me.

[Lerkfish]

41. Well said, especially the last line.

thank you.

[Mithreal]

45. Except what was best for the country was off the table from the start.

[Lerkfish]

89. the last line referred to that each side WANTED what they thought was best for the country

it is that that I agreed with.

but, I agree with you that the bill in its present form did not address what the majority of voters wanted -- some sort of public option or single payer.

[Mithreal]

183. So did the Republicans.

[Lerkfish]

243. I"m trying to build bridges here on points of agreement

not drive wedges. If you want to do that, that is up to you.

[Mithreal]

249. If the bridges are built with less than quality materials they are not safe to cross for long

I am not immune to shaming.

I did not create the wedges and for me to point to them and deny I created them must seem uncivil.

I would like to see the situation, problems and solutions with all their strengths and weaknesses.

I did not reject the proposals from those on the "left."

[Lerkfish]

251. um. ok.

[Mithreal]

252. sometimes I am less than clear

maybe this was one of those times

[DevonRex]

134. That's what I like about you, Lerkfish. You have strong opinions

and you have expressed them readily. But you are also tactful and thoughtful. You'd make a great representative, IMO. Have you ever thought about running for office? We could use a few more like you.

[Lerkfish]

143. hello

well, that's very flattering. Don't know how accurate that is (not always that tactful).

I've thought about running for office at various points in my life, but I don't compromise well if I think I"m right. I think politics is all about compromise. For example, a back room deal with me wouldn't work, so I'd be frozen out by special interests at some point, I imagine.

Like, there is no amount of money or blackmail that would get me to say torture is acceptable. I think you'd have to actually torture me to get me to say that.

:)

but thanks for your post.

[Divine Discontent]

42. R! The bill wasn't what we wanted, & the removal of GLBT health issues was upsetting (if I read

correctly), but I have been behind this bill fully the past couple weeks, and I'm very happy it passed.

America, the people that is, won tonight - YES!

[Mithreal]

46. I am not entirely sure a promise has been made but I will propagate the idea

when I talk with people I know and meet. It's a solidly good frame or at least seems so to me.

[LibDemAlways]

47. Skinner, I respectfully disagree about the merits of this bill. The American

people are not going to be happy when they hear the details. Dems in Congress and here on DU are kidding themselves if they think the mandate is going to be popular with the American people. It will be a huge albatross hanging around the necks of the Dems in November and will only add to our inevitable midterm losses.

And, am I missing something? I don't believe Obama or the Dems in Congress promised that this bill would provide "affordable health coverage for everyone." If they did, and it ultimately does, I will stand corrected. Until then I remain skeptical that this bill will be anything but a boondoggle for the insurance industry.

[ScreamingMeemie]

50. You are not missing anything...

For those offered the high risk pool we have already learned that "while it won't be cheap" (read you won't be able to afford it) at least it's something. Something Texas already has. Funny how Texas has such a high rate of uninsured residents.

[MessiahRp]

62. +1 and a huge *sigh*

You're right.

The mandates make zero sense to me. Forcing everyone into this was something I thought that we were compromising away for GOP votes but not a single one of them voted for it anyway (not to mention most Blue Dogs).

Also people all over the net have been passing around links to editorials proclaiming that regular HC premiums will actually go up... which, since I am not aware of any serious regulatory oversight that makes sure HC providers are playing nice with the new rules, could happen. What's to stop them from price gouging just as they have been? That didn't seem to have any sort of focus at all. Only the prevention of declining based on pre-existing conditions. That part to me was a no-brainer. The premium caps was what needed to be enforced and regulatory functions need to be in place to enforce these rules.

Maybe I've missed it but if it exists, someone please point this out to me. Because this bill sure looks shittier the more questions you ask about it.

Rp

[LibDemAlways]

125. Some of the supporters of this bill seem to be so focused on

obtaining a "win" for Obama that they've lost sight of what's in it - a mandate to buy private insurance - and what isn't - cost controls and a public option. Anyone who thinks this is going to be popular is living in a dream world.

[defendandprotect]

158. Agree 1000% --

and rather the PROMISE went to the insurance companies in private deal with

Obama -- see NY Times report --

Evidently quite a while back: "NO GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM" --

Have you forgotten already?

[voc]

48. Well said. Thank You. nt

[FrenchieCat]

51. Thank you for your good work!

We've got more work to do....elections to win!

So let's get out there and kick some more ass!

[Duende azul]

226. Elections to win?

You can't win elections with a broader margin than you won the last ones.

How will you fire up all the people who are now proudly wearing their "we worked our asses of for change and all we got is this crappy bill"-t-shirts?
Do you think to make them happy with the next bank bailout? Or some more years of war?

I'll give you this: Your team won a staged match against the "evil" team.
But like in sports, for the owners of the teams it isn't sports, it's an investment.

[Skittles]

52. "affordable" is not part of the bill

[Prism]

58. Right. As a gay man . . .

. . . any politician's promise is less than nothing to me.

The one thing I have yet to puzzle out is how the same people who accepted every jettisoning of liberal provisions, who defended every drop of the long watering down, who apologized for the scrapping of major centerpieces of the President's promises like the public option, are now running around telling us that this will all get fixed later.

How is this happening without a shred of shame for what they've done?

And why on earth should I believe them?

When the legislation and opportunity were in our hands, these same "fixers" spent a year justifying the destruction of a liberal bill in favor of this corporate-friendly one.

Why should I believe them?

They're proven liars. They have no credibility.

A promise? They just broke a thousand of them crafting this thing, and you're accepting a promise?

You must be a masochist, Skinner. Fortunately, I am not.

How's the promise to fix NAFTA working out for you? Or for the millions of unemployed? Or for our decimated manufacturing sector?

A promise. Good grief. We're not ready to learn yet. We cannot be if we're still selling this tiredness after all that has passed. We're just a bunch of colored shirts.

Go Blue Team.

[truedelphi]

75. A shockingly apt summation of why those of

Us who hate this bill get so damn mad.
The position of those overly loyal Dems has me just as bewildered as the position of the Repugs after 9/11. They wanted Bush to stay in office, more than ever, because how else could he keep us safe? (They didn't seem to notice that it was under his watch that we had been attacked.)

So now the overly loyal Democrats defend this bill, as they are so charmed and enthralled by the various kabuki theater machinations, including how scared they are fo the tea parties (who are something like 3% of the vote right now.)

It is all orchestrated from the top, and the Average Person who still has a brain ends up somewhat envying the "loyalists" - as at least they have something to cheer about sometimes.

[Prism]

77. It is truly warped reality

This entire process has been like inviting someone into your house for a meal, watching as they light the place on fire, stare in disbelief as they chuck the fire extinguisher out the window and cut off your water, and then, when everything is smoldering ashes, they turn to you and go "Why so glum? We can rebuild it! Aren't you excited? Don't be such a downer! Destroying your house was progress!"

I call them the Ike Turner Democrats. After spending a year beating the crap out of anything and everything slightly to the Left of Newt Gingrich, now it's "C'mon, baby. You know I love you. Things will be great from now on, you'll see!"

Sorry, I'll be at the Ramada if you need me.

[awoke_in_2003]

257. +1

for the "Ike Turner Democrats" :)

[progressoid]

85. +1

[change_notfinetuning]

87. Thanks for the reality check. One day, the yay-sayers will all wake up and

open their eyes and, boy, are they gonna be pissed. But it will be too late. This was our one chance and Democrats blew it.

[Mithreal]

293. Oh, many were naysayers too, to the PO and SP,

ever off the table by youknowwho.

[Toasterlad]

117. Righteous, Brother

We certainly know what it's like to be pissed on by Democrats; if this legislative fiasco accomplishes nothing else, maybe it'll show some of the straight people around here just how that feels. Judging from the many gushing responses though, it appears most people on DU still think they're feeling April showers.

[defendandprotect]

305. When VP Dick Cheney made private deals with the Energy Industry in the Whtie House....

we understood it was betrayal of the nation ---

Evidently if you have a "D" after your name, you're on hallowed ground?


When the legislation and opportunity were in our hands, these same "fixers" spent a year justifying the destruction of a liberal bill in favor of this corporate-friendly one.

Much of this year and the negotiations were obviously simply pretense in view of the

NY Times story on the private deals. Plus the deal with Big Pharma!

No negotiated drug price reductions --

And, no imported drugs to reduce prices for Americans --

+++ I'm not familiar with all of that deal!

[Joe the Liberal]

59. Yes but how sad is it that in 2010 health care is a defining issue for the US.....

meanwhile every other developed nation has had universal coverage for decades. They will probably look at this bill and say "meh" and with good reason as they have enjoyed universal health care for decades plus many other things that most Americans can only dream of. It's even more sad that it takes this long and this much effort to just get 1 or 2 tiny crumbs thrown our way.

[Jamastiene]

255. That is the part that sums it up.

Other nations have had universal health care for decades and Americans can still only dream of something like that. It'll never happen here. America continues on this hard right wing path facilitated by BOTH parties.

[cecilfirefox]

60. Hurray for health insurance reform! Gods bless America! ^_^ nt

[Hekate]

61. Kudos to you, Skinner, your fellow Admins, and the Mods. This is a great moment...

... and I'm glad to be here at DU to share it. :toast:

Hekate

[grantcart]

63. +1

[omega minimo]

66. The promise was made pre2008. We voted for it. Dems had a mandate. They reneged on universal health

care. With all DU respect Skinner, a lot of Americans have tuned out over this one. Obama was elected with other Democrats in 2008 to deliver the promise, with a mandate and a majority, of universal health care. They reneged. The process is "imperiled" by the disillusionment of voters.

[SeattleGirl]

72. Dude (or Dudette), we have a footstool now. I hope you will

not leave the room in disgust, but instead, stick around and lend your energy to making it much much better.

It's up to us, too.

[omega minimo]

74. We voted a majority and a mandate, not a footstool. Paid for it by not impeaching criminals. After 2

stolen elections and illegal war. SCOTUS officially decided we have a corporate run government. The banksters who bankrupted the economy were put in charge of "fixing" it. What country are you living in? Why don't the broken promises my post commented on matter to you? Some of us remember Clinton's promise of health care almost 20 years ago. This is really good enough for you? Because it's "better than nothing"?

[defendandprotect]

170. What we have is the foot of the insurance companies on our necks . . .

This is a victory for corporations/lobbyists and Corporate-Democrats -- !!!

It's up to us?

Where's reregulation of capitalism? Glass Steagall?

Where's amendment of the trade agreements?

Where's universal health care? This is a tiered system with INCOME TESTING!

Where is the end to these wars bankrupting our Treasury?

Where is support for the ideals of democracy and equality vs corporate interests?

Bailouts -- we still have $500 trillion in derivatives yet to be dealt with!!

[omega minimo]

210. and banksters

[Mithreal]

223. It's good to be on top. Recession is over.

[omega minimo]

228. The USA is over. Corporations Uber Alles

[Mithreal]

229. At this point in time, I think a persuasive argument can be made

I think it has been like this for a long time and is just now becoming more obvious and transparent. The world wasn't going to reorder itself. Now we need to make sure the people who have the inclination to bring democracy to the US have the tools, organization, and other support.

[omega minimo]

230. No

It has been BECOMING this for a long time. It has been obvious and transparent to some, who tried to warn against going down that road like lemmings. By the time NoLogo and others reached general public awareness, the tendency was to keep going along with it ANYWAY :wtf: and then act like it could be sorted out or corrected later. Now that it's REALLY Too Little Too Late, "we need to make sure the people who have the inclination to bring democracy to the US have the tools, organization, and other support"? Rather than prevent the damage from being done, Americans LIHOP and try to recreate what they have abandoned as their birthright and duty to protect?

Good luck :toast: :hi:

[Mithreal]

234. And more people are waking up all the time. Let's be ready for them.

I am one of those people who was a slow learner to what was being done.

Thom Hartmann has helped me catch up quite a bit.

:patriot:

[omega minimo]

247. Thom Hartmann is a gem, a national treasure

the best educator on these matters (amongst some other very good voices...) the most accessible IMHO for those who may be "slow learners." :thumbsup:

My concern and my decades-long alarm is not just in terms of economic or social demise, the dismantlement of the social safety net, but in regards to civil rights that the American people have blithely given up, while many still assume those rights are intact. That's what might have gotten more attention over the decades, for those who were too comfortable to be much roused by political or administrative crimes -- the point at which civil rights were being disappeared, bit by bit.

This makes the good works you are embarking on that much more challenging. :toast:

[saracat]

67. Thank you for the kinds words Skinner. I do not agree that any kind of promise is being kept

and I don't think affordable is even part of this bill.I find it ironic that all our compromise and bipartisanship bought us not one GOP vote , yet we passed a bill not disimilar to a GOP Bill.

[BigBearJohn]

69. Proud to recommend this post.

[SeattleGirl]

70. Thank you, Skinner

I admit that this place has tried my patience six ways to Sunday more than once, but right now, I am happy that the bill passed. It is NOT perfect; far from it. But now we have something to work with, and I hope with all my heart that the politicians and the members of "we the people" will accept it, AND use their passion and their energy to work toward making it better for all. I know I will.

[Maru Kitteh]

76. So PROUD to K and R.

[cornermouse]

78. (sigh)

Fact. I already have good health insurance and at a reasonable price, at least for now.
Also fact. My kids are on medicaid due to disability and are unable to get anything other than the urgent clinic. I tried to get them on private health insurance and had endless barriers put in front of me. No one was so gauche as to say "No, we won't cover them". They simply gave me a new task, a new hurdle every time I walked in to the office with the latest task met. I don't see that changing other than maybe expanded use as a tool to deny after last night.
Problem. How can I justify to myself taking advantage of better access to healthcare than my kids can get. Answer. I can't, so I go without.

I was willing to pay more for health insurance and be allowed to drop my private insurance plan to go on a government plan similar to my kids. I also saw paying more for health insurance as a plus if it allowed others to access healthcare through single payer or universal healthcare. None of those things happened. Indeed they were taken off the table at the start by Obama.

Prediction. My health insurance is going to go up big time after mandated coverage because it will now be mandated by law and enforced by the IRS and because there is nothing to stop them. Those who think that because they already have insurance that they, themselves, won't be affected are as wrong as they can be and they're going to be furious when they find out. Money that I could have spent to see a doctor if there was no alternative will now be spent paying for the plan itself. My kids (and I suspect others like them) are still going to be basically left unprotected. I can't look around and see that real progress has been made because only a few people will be covered and I'm not dumb enough to believe in the "we'll fix it later" mantra.

I see nothing to celebrate in what was passed last night, especially when I think of what could have been if they'd only set out with a "do it right the first time" mindset.

[tbyg52]

262. >>Indeed they were taken off the table at the start by Obama.

Our fearless leaders' specialty - taking things off the table. Kinda shows you who's *really* in charge of the government, huh? It sure ain't us.

[onestepforward]

80. K&R

[FlaGranny]

81. If this bill were in effect

10 years ago, when I was 60, I would have been able to get insurance. At that time I could have had a continuation of COBRA for $1200 a month (at least double that to cover both of us), but every other insurance company turned me down flat for preexisting conditions. I spent 5 years without any insurance, from 60 to 65 years old. My husband was able to get accepted for VA care. Me, I just "prayed" I wouldn't get sick. I was lucky to have made it through. So, although this isn't perfect, it is an improvement and I hope will be improved further.

[democracy1st]

82. K & R

[NJmaverick]

83. Well said!

:applause:

[change_notfinetuning]

84. "...momentum for even more progressive change"? Sorry, Skinner, I'm not sure

how much more of this "progressive change" we can take. Transparency is under the bus. Lobbyists and insurance companies are the drivers.

RIP, Democratic Party, and any hope for change.

[deacon]

90. Well said. k + r and permalink. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

91. a small step, but a good step nonetheless

still a lot more work to get done on this...hopefully after it becomes law, they get started on the public option sooner rather than later...

[tigereye]

92. thanks as usual, Skinner!

:thumbsup:

[Peacetrain]

93. K&R!!... I think it is always good to remember we come at this with an honest

desire for what is best..

EDIT TO ADD.. I am talking about ALL of us.. even when we disagree on procedures

[Mithreal]

174. If that's the case, might as well expand it to include a lot of Republicans

who because of ideological differences preferred the status quo or worse but had good intentions and wanted what they thought best.

These kind of weak statements we all wanted what's best may give some people warm thoughts for one another but unless they also come with truth, what's the point.

We had to push the President and he still resisted giving us seats at the table. He was going to take a win no matter what passed. I heard my own legislators parrot we must pass something, when it came down to it, anything, and that that was what I wanted. Yes, one even told ME what I wanted. Odd, don't you think? I disabused him of that notion.

The folks here that are part of some insider group within DU better be leading the efforts for PO or SP from here on out. You all know who you are. But will many of you lead or just ask us to fall in line again and again when our voices were most needed? I have gotten inside somewhat. The more I see, the more, I really hate this word, worry, about the shape of this Democratic Party.

I remain unconvinced that many here wanted what was best for the country and rather put party first. That is how it comes across. Deny it all you want. I am sure it wasn't any different before I showed up and won't be after I am gone. Principles are not something that should come in the way of governing is what many here have led me to believe.

[Cetacea]

94. Thank you, Skinner. And kudos to Du'ers who kept it civil

[Mithreal]

175. civility - formal or perfunctory politeness

perfunctory - Acting with indifference; showing little interest or care.

Civility sometimes gets in the way of expressing our true feelings. Not like any of us were talking about life or death issues.

A number of passionate voices are going to be missed. No mercy and no forgiveness for the chronically unreasonable who also wanted what was best for this country and were on the right side of history. America needed a comprehensive affordable quality PO available to all or SP not just to live but to remain competitive. Would be nice if America got out front of the other first world countries but that is not our path.

[fasttense]

95. Very good point. We have joined the rest of the developed world...at last. n/t

[Mithreal]

176. You're being sarcastic, right?

[Tansy_Gold]

260. No, I think that was sincere sincerity /sic/

On another thread someone was chortling about getting someone banned for "pissing in our wheaties," which I understood to mean that someone who didn't agree with the prevailing celebration had been removed from the discussion.

Oh well. who needs voices of dissent anyway? :sarcasm:



TG

[DailyGrind51]

96. This was rough, and it brought out the best and worst in people.

[Mithreal]

177. +1

[Toasterlad]

100. "they do so at their peril."

The Democratic party has consistently demonstrated a complete disregard for the "peril" they keep falling into; again and again, they've ignored their base in favor of corporate giveaways. And the Republicans are never in peril, as long as they avoid doing anything positive for this country, which is unlikely at best.

There will be no "fixing" of what's wrong with this bill, just like there will be no future attempts to add sorely needed REAL reform that this legislation in no way addresses...not for a very long time.

[hunter]

101. I'm hoping this is water on the wicked witch of the health insurance industry.

Like maybe now the insurance companies are going to have to prove they are about health care, and not about maximizing their revenue streams like huge bloated ticks sucking the life from our economy.

The insurance companies won't be able to do it. Their failure to deliver on their promises will open up further opportunities for health care reform, but it's going to entail some chaos.

That's still better than what we've had.

[blm]

102. nods all around....

.

[Cal Carpenter]

104. So civility trumps intellectual honesty

Deep wounds? People's feelings are hurt? Is that what this site is concerned about?

How about the reality that this bill will NOT help most of the people who need it. Not now, not in 4 years. Those people's deep wounds are going to become infected and kill them because they spent all their money on forced premiums and can't afford the co-pays, deductibles and co-insurance.

Promises? Give me a break, this is America, not some fantasy land. We were promised civil rights in the 60s, and how many young black men are in jail for nonviolent crimes while white people walk for the same crime? How many minority neighborhoods have terrible schools, poisoned air and water, no opportunities? How many women get paid less than men to this very day for the exact same jobs? We were promised that NAFTA would be great for business and the details could get 'fixed later'.

Promises aren't worth shit. It's an insult that you say that like it's truth, and it's sad that that's the best defense of this bill anyone seems to have.

I suppose I am in the minority here in that I think there is TRUTH about this bill, a truth that is being avoided at all costs on DU. Because it says something about the Democratic party that many don't want to face.

I know I'm walking a fine line by posting this, because we aren't supposed to question the administrators/moderators publicly here and I understand that. But by posting this thread Skinner I think you have opened the door for me to say this.

I think it is terribly sad that 'uncivil' yet straightforward remarks get deleted while people can post thread after thread of hollow, empty platitudes and totally dishonest statements about this bill and the people who oppose it.

[defendandprotect]

160. Great points . . . sometimes I think there's a kind of "Disneyland" aspect to

what people expect at DU --

what it adds up to is simply artificial --

Meanwhile, as the NY Times reported, the PROMISE was made to the insurance companies

in private deal with Obama evidently quite some time back --

'NO GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH INSURANCE PROGRAM' --

Has everyone already forgotten?

This is a victory for corporatism -- for lobbyists -- for Corporate Democrats --

And pity all of us who need health care!

[Mithreal]

178. +1 If you go down for saying it, then I should be TS'd too.

There is a group of members here that act more like insiders than we the people.

And yes, Skinner opened the door, but I doubt you will even get a response on that.

[tandot]

105. Agree! K & R

[blindpig]

106. Ladies & gentlemen, we have a winner...

for the category,'expectations lowered to the point of ridiculous'.

[defendandprotect]

146. +1000% --

And just noticed the thread is called "A Promise to the American People" . . .

Wasn't that Obama who was making private deals with insurance companies as reported

by the NY Times?

Promise: 'NO GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM'

[harun]

107. Some will say this is the wrong kind of reform but what this bill is saying

is that this country wants to be compassionate towards it citizens. It is saying it wants more equality instead of less. It is saying lies and fear cannot be used to stop truth and justice.

So while there are many things we want improved, this moment is where the pendulum started moving in the right direction.

The significant step that helped this country get to this step was woman's right to vote. Upon that foundation we got talented women in office and some compassion introduced in to the debate. The pinnacle of that movement was Nancy Pelosi and the tremendous effort she put in to what I believe is the toughest job in America right now. She delivered this vote.

So today, I say thanks to the women.

[Toasterlad]

114. "So today, I say thanks to the women."

The women who were unnecessarily thrown under the bus to get this bill passed? The women who must still shoulder the cost of their reproductive health on their own because the Democratic party is too chickenshit to stand for one of the very few principles they claim to have left?

Were those the women you were speaking of?

I know it wasn't the GAY women, because they're UNDER the women who were thrown under the bus, and they can't hear you through all those bodies.

[defendandprotect]

163. Pelosi pandered to the US Catholic Bishops and to "Rome" in their attempts

to continue to control reproduction in America and you're thankful?

Catholics are ignoring the church -- Catholic women have just as many abortions as

any other women. More than 50% of them want abortion covered in a government run

health care plan, or private plan!

The nation supported a single payer plan similar to MEDICARE FOR ALL --

This is simply a victory for corporations/corporatism -- lobbyists -- and DLC/

Corporate Democrats who have crushed any real health care reform!!

[harun]

218. Absolutely. Taking Federal Funding of abortions out of the equation was always the right thing to do

She handled it perfectly.

[Mithreal]

224. Really bad framing - "Federal Funding of abortions"

[gorfle]

110. That promise has not been made.

For the first time ever, the people of this country are making this promise to our fellow citizens: Affordable health coverage for everyone. Only time will tell if the bill can actually deliver on this promise. But now that the promise has been made, it's going to be very difficult for anyone to take it back.


Tell me, please, exactly how my health "coverage" costs have become any more affordable than it was before?

I make $90K a year with a family of 4.

[spanone]

112. k&r....

[FailureToCommunicate]

113. Wise commentary for a (mere) 38 year old. Thanks Skinner.

[Fire1]

115. I agree that this bill is not perfect but as it is, it will certainly help

me when I retire and so many millions already retired. I am grateful.

[kentuck]

116. K & R

Well said, Skinner!

[Bluenorthwest]

118. A celebation of futher discrimination by the disciminating class

Today, we will begin calling our electeds and the lawyers and accountants to try to find out how much we have to pay them starting when. Thus far, not one of them knows if this will help us, or destroy us. Literally. So it is hard to get too excited, knowing we might have to leave the States, or separate, or pretend to separate, or lie, or who knows. All we do know is that the law says we are not a family, and they just made a pile of new laws to favor families, meaning we will be disfavored and discriminated against yet again. Because no one bothered to address the inequity at all, not one Democrat gave a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut, save for Dennis Kucinich, who got attacked nonstop on DU for doing so.
So the experience of the day is different for those who are not protected by the law as a family.

[Tansy_Gold]

148. Hear, hear!

:hug:

[defendandprotect]

150. +1000%

[lonestarnot]

119. Teehee.

:applause:

[Highway61]

121. K & R...n/t

[leftygolfer]

122. I don't have much

but I have healthcare now. This smile is for you and from you President Obama!

[Dr Morbius]

124. We have taken a step.

It is a step in the right direction. It is a halting step, a baby step, and it is likely that we will fall down, again and again.

But we have to take this step. Yes, I grant it's a bad bill. If I believed, for a moment, that the Republican party would allow a better bill to be voted on in the Senate, I'd oppose this bill. It helps the insurance companies too much for my liking, and they and big pharma are the only ones who've been doing well in the medical care industry. It does nothing to prevent insurance companies from raising their rates at will. It mandates insurance and for many families, this will result in sacrificing some cherished luxuries, like cable TV or super high-tech cell phones. Some people will be unhappy. No doubt about it.

But here's a happy thought: maybe America will start to be healthier. Here's a less happy thought: one of our nation's biggest health problems concerns undiagnosed mental illness. As many as 60 million Americans may be suffering from depression alone, in one form or another (which can be caused by a sedentary lifestyle and consuming crap like high fructose corn syrup). If America gets healthier, America can also become mentally healthier. Less insane. Maybe we can get people to change the poor habits which in the long term can lead to depression or diabetes or other conditions.

There's a shot, a long shot to be sure but a chance, that passing this bill will result in a healthier, more rational America. That is a step we MUST take, a step long overdue. So this step, halting and unsure though it may be, is a thing to be applauded.

By the way, I understand that the House passed a Senate fix yesterday. The Senate now must deliberate on the fix, and I presume can pass it under the reconciliation process without needing to invoke cloture. Yet I wonder what would happen if a given Republican Senator decides to stand up, start talking, and not stop, in the original version of a filibuster. I do not doubt that the vast coffers of the lobbyists will be wide open to any Democratic Senators who will vote against the fix. So we are hoping, at this point, that politicians - not normally considered the most ethical of Americans - will reject enough money to get them reelected with ease and do the right thing. There is still a chance this bill will not end up on the President's desk.

[evrstrong]

126. Yeah, I want what is best for this country...

But does Obama, really?

This bill was nothing but compromises! Too many thrown under the bus, women in particular...

Spying on citizens!

Unlawful rendition...

Close Guantanamo!

Approving loan guarantees for two new nuclear plants? Heck no!

War, war and more war...kids with joysticks dropping bombs from thousands of miles away...What could be more morally reprehensible?


I don't know how anyone could call him a great president, sadly.

[mzmolly]

127. K and R.

Agreed. :kick: I think the first vote on a fix is coming much sooner than the naysayers suggest given Reid said we'll take a vote on a public option. Probably shortly before the midterms?

[DevonRex]

132. Thank you so much for this post, Skinner. You expressed youself beautifully

and even made my eyes tear up. And WTF? You're 38??? Here I was thinking you were still in your twenties. You have the same rather guarded optimism that my 2 boys have, and your writing radiates the same energy and compassion. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that you're older than they are, since they are wise beyond their years.

I have really enjoyed your increased presence here lately because you have a calming influence on the board. IMO that has been a major factor in keeping the debate civil and I think it has helped the moderators. They have surely been ready to pull their hair out at times.

[Mithreal]

186. Just curious, what is the activist corps? There is a streak of similar type of thinking.

Selective enforcement of the rules, TS's and deleted messages helped set the tone too.

I don't have a problem when it's a freepet but when it's a passionate Progressive and Skinner seems to appreciate, you know, passion.

If you activist corps types have any pull since I never get a response, please ask for a more forgiving response to people who have lost their cool, like temporary loss of posting privileges, like 30, 60, 90 days, you know, a progressive discipline?

I miss people who used to post here that were good Progressives. I miss their voices. We are less for not having them around.

I know I will be TS'd eventually, I am sure you do too, just look at the kind of things I ask. I care very little for obeying authority figures, it's a personal flaw. Yeah, I appreciate the community that is DU, but the Underground part is a thing of the past and not because Progressives are in power.

[Jakes Progress]

135. Respectfully,

a promise was made. But the idea that it will be difficult to take back, while uplifting, is not based on any real world experience. A political promise is the most easily broken of all vows.

[JNelson6563]

136. Hear, hear!

:toast:

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PufPuf23]

138. I respectfully disagree Skinner

Promises mean close to zero in politics.

There is nothing in the "HCR" Bill that assures affordability.

This "HCR" Bill is regressive and builds a firewall that institutionalizes the inefficiencies in the American health care system, is a massive transfer of wealth from household budgets to corporations, creates classes of health care insurance coverage, and not only weakens Medicare but the mandates are step one in Zeke Emanuel's idea on how to phase out Medicare.

I am so sad that "winning" triumphs over substance at DU.

For consistency, the DUers with faith in hope and change promised by Congress majorities and a Democratic POTUS as of January 2009 should be repelled as I am now by this legislation.

BTW This is my 1000th post.

I truly hope I am wrong and you and the others happy in "winning" are right.

We all want what is best for our country but most of us, Democratic or not are sleep walking.

[Stumbler]

142. Well said

[SlingBlade]

144. It's Over. Nothing much left to be said

[Mithreal]

180. Without a doubt. Now we are told we should work on the fixes.

And I even agree that we can't give up. And you know what, the Progressive community has not. Wish I could say the same about all the insiders.

[defendandprotect]

145. We've bought "Fool's Gold" . . . Gold, Bronze and Silver . . .

As Skinner points out, he wanted single payer - and in fact, most citizens wanted

MEDICARE FOR ALL -- a government run health care system -- 77% of us last I heard!*


Obama and the insurance/"for profit" health care industry saw it differently --

The political victory goes once again to the corporations/lobbyists who are controlling our

government and the Democratic Party and to our insane system of corrupt capitalism.

Sadly, this insurance industry which Obama has called "evil" will now be even further

strengthened with our tax dollars subsidizing them and with the power of our IRS enforcing

mandates.


This is neither the first nor the last of the betraysls as we clearly and well understand from

the DLC/Rahm comments calling liberals "F-ing Retarded" --

and from Obama's comments which made clear that the ideals of liberals/progressives will NOT be

included in his Democratic Party nor in his vision of governing the nation.

And from the realization that most of this year has been involved with the PRETENSE that

our president and the Democratic Party would truly be trying to include a Public Option, while

this president has actually been making secret deals with the insurance industry!

The promise was 'NO GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH SYSTEM' and that has been delivered to them.


Obama also made private deals with Big Pharma in the White House which we learned about later.

Does anyone recall the nationwide negative reaction to VP Dick Cheney making secret deals with

the Energy Industry in the White House? Enron, anyone?


Naturally, I strongly disagree with a corporate/DLC victory being seen a "win" for the nation!

This is a tiered system which is counter to universal health care --

However, I do believe that everyone here cares about their country and about the welfare of our

citizens -- in that regard, I do hope that something good does come from this bill.



* Even Catholics supported a government run health care program -- and they wanted

reproductive care included -- 73%+ - when Latinos/Latinas are added the majority is

higher -- and more than 50% want contraception and abortion services to be included in

any government run health care plan.

[Mithreal]

181. +1

[defendandprotect]

149. Just want to point out NY Times tells us the "promise" was made to the insurance industry . . .

not to the American public --

and the PROMISE was . . . 'NO GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM' --

Sad, indeed -- but something to be remembered!!

[Faryn Balyncd]

248. 1+, The "promise" Congress made was to fine or imprison anyone who does not purchase from the cartel

[HughMoran]

155. Even Skinner gets 22 unrecs

Funny!

[defendandprotect]

164. Why not . . . ? Actually I never UN anything ... even if I disagree . . .and I do!

The PROMISE -- indeed -- was made by Obama to the insurance industry --

and that PROMISE was that there would be 'NO GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM' --

Most of this year has been pretense --

See NY Times report --


This is a victory for corporations/lobbyists and Corporate-Democrats!!

[bc3000]

169. In retrospect we could have had health care 18 years ago.

All the democrats had to do was to sell out to the big money interests and make a ton of compromises to dull the effectiveness of the bill. Jeez, why didn't Bill and Hillary think of that?!

[defendandprotect]

173. + 1

[Mithreal]

211. +1 Or just let Old School Republicans have their way. Not these Republicans, of course.

These ones are batdroppings crazy.

[Stellar]

171. I'd stopped coming around because of the anger.

Here's hoping we can find some common ground. And congratulation to everyone for giving it another chance.

[zalinda]

179. Sicko, the movie, was about people who

had health insurance. I don't see anything in this bill that will change what will happen to people like those in the movie.

I, myself, am on Medicaid. I'm taken care of. But the many people out there who are already struggling are going to be the victims of this shit of a bill. This is not a football game, to win or lose, this bill will affect people's lives. The dems own this thing, and when people start finding out that it is not what it pretends to be, the dems will go down, and repubs will come up smelling like roses.

Nothing has been fixed. Some areas have been patched with duct tape, but that's not a fix.

zalinda

[dr_johnsons_dog]

192. repubs will come up smelling like roses

Unfortunately zalinda, you are right. When it fully hits the American people that they will be forced to buy health insurance, at whatever rates that are presented to them (and God knows what they will be), or lose tax refunds, they will be enraged. It's just a really really unpopular concept, and I cannot comprehend how Democrats don't understand this. This is a bill with no real change, and will be seen as a massive giveway to the insurance companies - which it is - and which will be seen as more government intrusion into the life of most Americans, who will not be positively impacted by this bill. The first thing an American usually asks abuot any program is...."what's in it for me?". They're going to find out what's in it for them, is higher premiums, enforced coverage, and no improvement of plans or reduction of costs. This is insane. I predict a big loss for the Dems in 2012 and 1 term for Obama. He should have used that term to pursue real health care change which would have been a single payor system, or one with a public option. The real tragedy is that this bill will cast a pall on healthcare reform for another generation as no one will touch this third rail after they see the consequences in November.

[JackDragna]

182. If Congress ever intended to do something truly progressive..

..it would have already been done in terms of health care. Obama would have gone to the mat for the public option, the thing he said was necessary if he were to sign a bill. He would have castigated Republican critics and mobilized his core of supporters to pass something much more effective than what we got. Instead, we get another corporate giveaway that will do very little to control the obnoxious cost increases of the American health care system.

It's not a matter of a promise made. It's a matter of a bill that, like the bank bailouts, provides a financial windfall for a group of predatory companies whose behavior was the cause of a crisis and therefore should not be rewarded with the taxpayer's money.

[Mithreal]

215. Promises don't feed your children or pay the mortgage.

[Echo In Light]

188. I realize politics is the art of lying, so I won't be disappointed when "promises" don't come true

[Mithreal]

214. +1 And we will be reminded that when this promise isn't kept.

If we somehow managed to successfully exert our influence and force the votes on Medicare buy-in, Obama will take that as a win too. I am even willing to give it to him, but I just don't see him as a people's champion. He himself has said he is a free market kind of guy.

Can't wait for all those new free trade agreements he has lined up.

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JTFrog]

194. Who got banned for criticizing this bill and the President?

"Now I'm wondering because I dare to criticize both this bill and the President, if I will be banned, as I KNOW others have been."

Prove it.

Skinner has already made it clear that any and all substantive criticism is permitted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5524913

Nonetheless, if anyone is confused about what is permitted here, I'll spell it out as clearly as I can. It's pretty simple:

* Any and all substantive criticism of Barack Obama and his policies is permitted. And by "any and all substantive criticism" we mean all of it -- no issue is off limits.

* Expressions of dismay, disappointment or disagreement with Barack Obama or his policies are permitted.

* But insults, name-calling, or other expressions of contempt toward Barack Obama or his supporters are not welcome.


There is a part of me that is a little disappointed (but not surprised) that this even needs to be said. Even if you don't agree with President Obama on a number of issues, I guess I kinda thought that everyone here would consider themselves -- on some level -- to be among his supporters. Or, at very least, I didn't think that any DUer would want to deliberately use the same type of language one would expect to hear from tea-baggers and Freepers.

It is our intention that ALL substantive criticism of Barack Obama be permitted here. If you believe there are any issues on which you are not permitted to criticize Barack Obama (or any Democrat) please post in this thread and tell me the specific issue -- I will gladly address your concerns. Similarly, if anyone persists in spreading the falsehood that criticism of Barack Obama is now forbidden on DU, I believe it is not unreasonable to ask that person to please identify what substantive criticism they are no longer able to share.

One more VERY IMPORTANT point.

This post has focused on the limits of acceptable behavior when criticizing Barack Obama or those of us who support him. But I want to be absolutely clear: This does not mean "anything goes" for those DUers who defend him from criticism. Indeed, we have knee-jerk bullies on all sides of this issue. Just as DUers should be able to support and defend Barack Obama here on DU without being attacked or having their motives questioned, DUers should also be able to share legitimate criticism of Barack Obama without being attacked or having their motives questioned.

I believe that the vast majority of DUers are not bothered by legitimate disagreements shared in the spirit of mutual respect. That is the ideal that we should *all* be striving for.

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pundaint]

202. What happened to the Obama approval poll?

The last I saw was Obama losing after a little over 500 votes.

[Mithreal]

216. I'd like to see that too.

[whatchamacallit]

198. At risk to my high standing at DU (lol)

I agree with this. If you think insurance companies, who've made it their stock and trade to deny coverage, will be forced to do what's right, think again. It's analogous to what banks did with TARP. The best part of this whole thing is the well deserved beat-down the republicans are getting.

[Mithreal]

217. Corporate Dems have allied themselves with the sharks

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hXxNyxkBBwY/Sla9ODF8k0I/AAAAAAAAA7I/vduGHVGT8WI/s400/goldfish+with+shark+fin.jpg

[TheKentuckian]

209. Some say right. Others say promise. I see an obligation to ensure profits

I guess there is a promise that if you have the money big insurance has to take it, can't have the wealthy denied services afterall.

[EFerrari]

212. This promise looks more like it was made to the insurance industry

not to us.

I'm sorry, Skinner. :(

[OneBlueSky]

213. well, you're certainly not alone in this . . . were I as eloquent, I might have . . .

written that post myself . . . I'm just glad there's someone here who can lay it down so succinctly and (imo) accurately . . .

in the end, the reason for passing this bill was passing this bill -- not healthcare reform, not helping you and me, not anyhing other than getting a perceived "win" . . . what Obama and others don't realize is now that it's passed, people are indeed going to hate it -- Americans don't like being told they have to buy something they don't necessarily want -- and from a select group of companies who are in the healthcare business solely for the ungodly profits they can skim off the top of the system . . .

insurance companies contribute nothing to the provision of quality healthcare -- they're just leeches who have inserted themselves into the system to siphon off a third or more of our healthcare dollars for their shareholders . . . they make their money by maximizing their income (premiums) and minimizing their expenditures (benefits paid, plus high deductibles) . . . what we have now is not healthcare reform; it's an insurance policy for corporate profits . . .

how this will play out at election time is anyone's guess . . . two years is an eternity in political time, and anything can happen between now and the next election . . . but I wouldn't put money on a second term for this administration -- not when people start feeling the impact of this bill on their wallets . . .

[katty]

220. thank god the Democrats actually DID something-more work

ahead...more and more.

[Mithreal]

225. Obama admitted his role in keeping all sorts of "lefty" proposals out of the mix.

He continually frustrated many of us with his eagerness to ask Republicans how to govern.

If doing "something" and appearing better than George Bush are the best this party has to offer, there are going to be a lot more independents.

I like your spin though, and I don't mean that in any kind of bad way. Did we just dig ourselves a deeper hole? I don't know but I find some of the argument that we have, persuasive.

[katty]

264. concur, alot more indies to come (i am pondering that move

as well)not that i have any delusions that my vote really 'counts' - the switch would just be my preference at this stage in life.

[Mithreal]

266. I like the idea of dual party, but definitely understand others thinking the same.

It's our party more than the corporate Dems even if they run it.

[R. P. McMurphy]

227. k & r. n/t

[Scurrilous]

232. Kick

:kick:

[Bobbie Jo]

233. Big K&R!

Thank you, Skinner! :kick:

[Name removed]

239. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

244. FWIW, I STRONGLY disagreed with the bill in its current form

and I was allowed to express that. True, I caught flak from some individuals, but the site itself did not attempt to silence me or "blot" me out.

[orbitalman]

246. Kicking it up another notch. nt

[Name removed]

250. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mithreal]

253. Might want to edit that before it gets deleted.

[BeatleBoot]

273. I smell pepperoni

[theaocp]

277. I must be out of the loop

I have absolutely no idea what that means. Enlighten me, please? Thanks!

[Mithreal]

299. As I understand it, another word for tombstone, banned

There were a couple mentions in the post that outright broke rules or guidelines and were hurtful to a certain faction of DU'ers. There was some truth mixed in, and passion too, but if a post is going to be deleted it doesn't really serve anyone's reason for posting it, better if it were rephrased and toned down.

When people get tombstoned they have generally lost their cool, sometimes after being badgered by what seems combined efforts of a certain faction within DU, though it could just be spontaneous and not organized, I have my suspicions though. That's been my experience at least unless they are outright freepers.

Sometimes deleted posts are even borderline and still get deleted. I think I have only had one of my posts deleted this past week but I knew when I posted it that I was approaching the edge. I was obviously wrong, I guess, though sometimes it feels like although mods work together they can also be very biased - SOMETIMES. Overall they do a great and mostly thankless job.

Anyway, I am obviously out of the loop on a lot. :hi:

[theaocp]

307. Thanks Mithreal

I appreciate it, as I would not have figured that out on my own. I don't know what part of my post was against the rules, unless it was just seen as mean-spirited. Oh well. It was cathartic (sp?) anyway. The mods definitely have a thankless job, but they do what they have to. I still hope to be proven wrong, but I live by the concept of Sicko on this whole fiasco: it's not about the uninsured. It's about the insured that can't use their coverage. Now, we've just expanded that. Not really a victory in my book. Cheers.

[TexasObserver]

259. Well said. It's a first step in the right direction.

[stuart68]

263. A couple facts on HCR from MSNBC (refuting your premise)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35992060/ns/politics-health_care_reform/

What will start before 2014 ?
- Seniors get a $250 check
- Insurers cannot drop you (which will increase existing premiums)
- Children with pre-existing conditions cannot be denied (but remember, families will not be getting subsidies for coverage so they will still be paying for this coverage).
- Children can be covered by parents

The rest of the story
- No elimination of pre-existing conditions for adults until 2014
- No coverage for uninsured, just subsidies for high risk pools meaning the poor will still pay a significant cost for healthcare until 2014. In addition, only $5B is available to fund high-risk pools, so they expect the funds to run out by next year (at which point these folks are f’d). Beyond that, they are not eligible unless they have been uninsured for at least 6 months, so it’s a good thing pre-existing conditions are eliminated – oh, wait, that doesn’t happen until 2014 (I guess the poor/uninsured/highest risk people really are f’d).
- No elimination of costs for seniors prescriptions; starts in 2014 and is in place by 2020
- No tort reform (not even mentioned, so lawyers will still get their cut)

Taxes go up now, healthcare costs go up now, but benefits come in 2014.

[YOY]

267. Love ya Skinner but this is just regulation.

Needed but it's still feeding the greed of unnecessary companies cashing in on what should be a governmental job.

[Zhade]

268. Respectfully, I think you're being naive.

I suspect in six months -- or less -- we will see exactly how unfriendly this bill is to the American people.

Always willing to be wrong -- thrilled, even. But I doubt I'll be.

[ColesCountyDem]

269. EXACTLY!

This bill is far from perfect, but I belong to the "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" wing of the Democratic Party!

:hi: :)

[Mithreal]

274. Don't let the bad be the enemy of the good either when you can have both in one bill.

So would that be the business marketing wing or the philosophical wing?

:)

[ColesCountyDem]

287. it's the "I'm at the lunch counter and I MADE YOU serve me" wing. n/t

[Mithreal]

291. Interesting racial angle.

[ColesCountyDem]

297. Just an accurate analogy, as I see it.

:hi:

[FarLeftFist]

271. 300th REC!

[BEZERKO]

276. I'm 50,

and it's one of the greatest days in my life. I don't remember the Medicare fight, too early on for me to remember.

[Name removed]

279. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mithreal]

292. .

this is a strange place if a post like this is left unresponded and our community condones it.

since I have heard the same vitriol used against teachers by this one, I am thinking some of us are in more desperate need of health care and love than others.

As far as I knew, this insurance reform was theoretically supposed to help more of us regardless of our level of ignorance or political ideology.

Seems indecent.

[SlingBlade]

280. Let's be real clear here, The "Promise" was to FIX this later

Without that Promise, This Bill would have gone nowhere.

[Lindsey]

283. Thank you Skinner. K&R

[earcandle]

282. Count me in! Thanks, Skinner

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

284. I'm skeptical

There are a great many more people who now cannot be denied health insurance, people who most likely otherwise would have been denied coverage. But, there's no cap on the cost of these premiums so insurance companies may simply use cost as a way of effectively denying sick patients.

It's kind of like the days after the passage of the 15th amendment. Blacks could not legally be denied the right to vote, but they were still intimidated and harassed to prevent them from casting a ballot.

So I ask, what's the difference between denying someone coverage and approving someone of coverage they can't afford?

[NYC_SKP]

288. kick. nt.

[Major Hogwash]

289. Like my old man used to say, "Shit, or get off the pot."

It may not be the nicest type of advice he ever gave, but he meant business.
This bill stinks, but at least we squeezed something out.
And if I can think of any more references to feces, I'll be back to add to this pile tomorrow.

[Shining Jack]

306. +1

I like the analogy.

[orleans]

294. (you're only 38? sigh. those were the good old days too. 18, 25, 38, 45...

hummm...maybe i should play the lottery...)

[pundaint]

295. That promise has been made and remade for 5 decades as the insurance industry has been left to take

profits from Americans because they get sick - despite the fact that insurance companies treat no sickness. The insurers have alway said that they would do better if we just left them in charge. Now we've made it law that they will be in charge. The problem is the insurance-for-profit, and the fix is more insurance-for-profit, and a commissioner with the less authority than the regulators who have done such a fine job with the banks have. As a member of People, you have won nothing.

Absolutely best case, we still wont crack the worlds top 20 best countries to be a human who uses medical care, but we will further outpace the world in cost leadership.

This legislation was contrary to the Platform, contrary to Obama's campaigning; and deals were cut behind closed doors. You may be happy that your team won the televised competition, but don't believe that You or anybody else will have a better outcome until you observe if.

[freddie mertz]

296. And then there are the promises broken.

Too many to count at this point, but let's consider a woman's right to choose, which was dragged through the mud in the last act of the so-called "victory" Sunday night.

I'm happy for the fortunate few who will benefit from this bill in its initial stages.

But much of the rest of it is a simple disaster.

The time for listening to "promises" is over.

What we have to do now is ACT to get real reform enacted someday, hopefully while some of us are still here to see it.

[Joanne98]

302. Thank you Skinner!

[earth mom]

303. Sorry, but I won't sell out for what is another version of the bankster bailout

except that this time the plan is much more massive and much more corrupt.

Forcing people by law to buy a product from private entity is unconstitutional and proves that Washington DC is corrupt beyond measure.