May I suggest that NO ONE buys the mandated insurance and uses the free clinics Bernie Sanders put

[grahamhgreen]

in the bill instead.

The fines you pay (eventually $750/yr) will be cheaper than the crapsurance that is mandated - in time, with enough people using them, the clinics can grow into a true nationalized health care program.

[DJ13]

1. In theory I agree

But doing that sure does tilt the tax rate the lower classes pay into an unfair rate of taxation.

[upi402]

2. If you can get to one

How can I lobby for one nearby us? $62.50/month isn't bad compared to the insurance handout fees.

[Sebastian Doyle]

3. Sounds like a reasonable plan to me.

The mandates will go down, one way or another.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

7. I don't understand. Are we not supposed to use the CHC's? nt

[Skittles]

14. no, you're supposed to cheerlead this piece of shit bill

now BE OBEDIENT

[troubledamerican]

16. (cheerleading): Rah-Rah Yay, Excise Tax & Poisoned Mandate, Yay, We Won

[Skittles]

18. I can see why you are troubled

[troubledamerican]

33. This so-called victory will blow up in our faces.

And the second wave of debt crisis meltdown will get fully blamed on Obama & Dems.

We are perfectly positioned for the end of the Weimar Republic 2.

[Skittles]

42. and it's being cheered on by a lot of DUers

I hear you

[cali]

63. it's clear you don't have a clue what a CHC is, honey.

[ixion]

6. Fight the Mandate

that's the new mantra.

[Oregone]

10. The mandate isn't inherently wrong

Its mandating people into an unfair, private system that will cause rationing among the poor and hold down social mobility.

Fighting the mandate isn't the only solution. Fighting for a fair system would also be effective too.

People will fight for neither, I bet

[truedelphi]

26. We havebeen told over the years that if we brought a Democratic majority into the

House and the Senate and if we fought and battled and then got a Democrat in the Oval Office, then Universal Single Payer HC for all would be possible.

Some of us who have been paying attention pretty much feel like the only way that We the People will ever see Universal Single Payer is if every single one of us wins a lottery and buys up the lobbyists and thus has influence over people like Rahm.

The Political Life here in the USA is about the Big Money Party. I feel that more today than ever before. (I almost went out onto the front porch and screamed like a wounded animal for five minutes, in a moment reminiscent of the night that Kerry "lost" to Bush. But what's the point? We don't have democracy here; we have a third world Banana Republic, without the bananas.)

[DeltaLitProf]

58. Who is this "We" you talk about?

So I guess nothing was achieved, eh? The shop is closed. No hope of adding to what was begun Sunday night.

Turn off the light on your way out.

[truedelphi]

102. For one - this guy here in this video told us

How we could get Single Payer Universal HC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE

However no one has seen this particular guy since maybe February 1st, 2009.

[grahamhgreen]

11. I like it!

[Skittles]

8. I will NOT buy mandated insurance from the same companies that have FUCKED us

NO FUCKING WAY

and wait and see - they will tie that refusal, that fine to your credit rating - oh yes

[ScreamingMeemie]

9. I'm with you on that.

Of course, it's easy to say because it will be impossible to afford the high risk pool that so many will probably find themselves dumped in.

[sabrina 1]

12. Keith Olbermann has said he will fight the mandate

by not buying insurance in solidarity with those who are being forced to buy something they cannot afford. But then, Obama once believed mandates were wrong also.

I hope Keith hasn't changed his mind, or had it changed for him.

I like the idea. Mandates are a Republican idea.

I think I lost a lot of respect for Obama the day I heard him repeat that Republican talking point that 'people without insurance cannot be allowed to continue to be a burden on the rest of us'.

Republicans use that kind of baiting tactic all the time, I expect it of them. But when I heard him do it, especially since he once said that 'mandates would require an enforcement mechanism and it would be wrong to force people to buy something they cannot afford', I was crushed. Having fought that kind of baiting meant to arouse anger towards other people for so long with rightwingers, it was devastating to hear him use it against the poor.

[paulsby]

15. you are SO wrong

first of all, let me say that i am SO happy this bill passed. is it suboptimal ? yes. is it going to help a lot of people? yes

and obama was right. whether it's obama's talking point, a rightwing talking point, or whatever.

uninsured people disproportionately use expensive emergency room care, rarely get preventive medicine, and raise the cost of health care for everybody. duh

that's why single payer would be preferable. and with single payer, we wouldn't HAVE uninsured people.

obama is right

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. And why is it they rarely get preventive medicine? and end up in

expensive emergency rooms? Because they don't have the insurance card or the cash to pony up at the doctor's office before they are seen. An emergency room is no questions asked care. A doctor's office is pay first, service after.


Edited: because "preventive" always screws me up! :P

[paulsby]

23. yes, we agree

that's the point. without insurance, ER is pretty much their only option. ER's aren't designed for preventive care, and usually by design, don't catch stuff early, since people wait until stuff is BAD before they go (usually).

they are much MORE expensive for the basic stuff people who don't have insurance are forced to use them for.

with universal health care, people have more options. BECAUSE the uninsured have few if any other options, they use ER's.

[ScreamingMeemie]

25. and sadly we lost out on that.

I wasn't disagreeing with you.

I was so hopeful we would have universal, affordable, even stevens healthcare for all.

[paulsby]

30. i agree. it's far from perfect

but i think many many people will be helped and it is a step in the right direction imo

i think a lot of people are way too cynical and not appreciating that many many people will finally GET coverage they desperately need

[Skittles]

32. you do understand

that coverage does not mean healthcare, right? that many, MANY people with coverage CANNOT AFFORD TO USE IT

[ScreamingMeemie]

35. A look at a high risk pool table for the citizens of Texas...

http://www.txhealthpool.com/01-01-2010_Regular_Rates-Instructions_Posted_11-17-09.pdf

Every day working people, with preexisting conditions, cannot afford that, and to think otherwise is crazy. I know I am being extremely selfish here but I really want to live to see my son turn 18.

[eomer]

60. The Texas pool has a cap of 200% of standard rates. The federal pool cap is 100%.

I'm not sure whether Texas is still at the 200% cap; they were previously.

Neither of us is sure but it seems possible that the federal pool premiums will be about half of those Texas premium rates.

[ScreamingMeemie]

90. I am quite sure it is not affordable for someone of my age and

condition. Factor in deductibles and what it will and will not cover and the end result is the same.

I am glad you are happy. I can't make myself be.

[eomer]

92. I'm not happy.

I can only hope that the reform bill passed last night will help someone, somewhere. If it saves one person's life then I will feel like my efforts of advocacy were well worth the small cost they represented to me.

I do hope you will be helped by it and, if you're not, I hope that we can bring the next iteration of reform in time that you will be helped by that.

But, no, I'm not happy. There is still way too much injustice and suffering, caused mainly by us and our privileged lives, to be happy.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[girl gone mad]

People with insurance account for 1/3 of all uncompensated care.

What's more, the uninsured pay for a significant amount of their health expenditures out of pocket, generally at rates higher than Medicare or insurance reimbursements.

The uninsured account for about $40 billion a year of uncompensated health expenditures. That's less than 3%.

In other words, even if the individual mandates work exactly as planned, the best you can hope for is about a 3 percent reduction of health care costs.

[paulsby]

37. wow

if that's true, that's definitely not what i hear from my peeps in the ER.

i know a heck of a lot of ER nurses and docs

[girl gone mad]

38. Here you go..

"Amount of “uncompensated care” provided. Exhibit 1 presents the estimates of medical care spending by insurance status and source of payment. People who were uninsured during any part of the year received $98.9 billion in care, of which $34.5 billion was “uncompensated care” (that is, not paid for either out of pocket or by a private or public insurance source). This represents 35 percent of the care received by the uninsured but only 2.8 percent of total personal health care spending of $1,235 billion in 2001. The other 65 percent was paid for out of pocket and, mainly for the part-year uninsured, by private and public insurance sources."

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w3.66v1/DC1#

Not only that, but the uninsured use significantly less care, less than half as much according to this same study. This is a form of rationing which helps keeps health care costs down for everyone, including you.

[paulsby]

40. fair enough

assuming the stats are correct, and i see no reason to think otherwise, i stand corrected.

[Political Heretic]

55. Wish more people had "stood corrected" on a lot of things BEFORE this bill passed.

le sigh....

[paulsby]

95. zut alors

quel dommage

[laughingliberal]

61. Yes, a lot of the care for which hospitals and ER's are not paid is people with insurance

When we say people who have insurance are a large part of the ones who wind up in bankruptcy, I guess people don't understand that is uncompensated care. If a persons shows up in the ER without their $2000 deductible met, the insurance company does not pay that 1st $2000. Then the percentages the patient is responsible for are not paid. A lot of people go bankrupt with policies which cover 80% who can't cover the 20% that is their responsibility. Throw in a few charges the insurance company decides they don't cover. I've had them reject the lab bills from hospitals saying the lab was out of network. It's nuts. I'm in a network hospital but their lab is out of network. Now, Ive successfully challenged that but we had a pretty good insurance commissioner here at that time. At any rate, these are the charges which send people into bankruptcy. Now we will have 30 million people who are largely covered by 'bronze' level policies. The coverage is 60%. The deductible is $2000. The maximum out of pocket for an individual is $5,500, for a family $11,900.

Those balances people are left with and can't pay are uncompensated care. Your post is right on. It's not just the uninsured who are responsible for uncompensated care. Those with insurance aren't noticed as much by the nurses and doctors working the ER. They basically know if there's insurance or not. They are not involved after discharge with the billing and problems collecting the balances the insurance didn't pay.

These 'bronze' policies are also a form of rationing. Bush's 'ownership society' was based on a similar premise. The thinking was that if insurance covered less of the bill and people were forced to spend more of their own money they would be more frugal about accessing the system. It's rationing the patient will have to impose on themselves. Even with no out of pocket expense to the patient for preventive care, we will still see this self rationing. If a patient goes to the doctor for their free checkup and a condition is found that they can't afford to treat, a lot will still not get their treatments or medications and we're still going to see a lot of them in the ER when the problem reaches crisis proportions. Whereas it is true some conditions will be less expensive if caught and treated early, many are less expensive if the patient is closer to death when it is caught.

I don't want to rain on people's parade but I do want people to realize that a lot of the same problems facing people now will still be there after the bill is enacted and I want people to have their party and then get back to work on Congress and the White House to start amending this thing.

[conscious evolution]

81. 'bronze' policies

Do you know what a bronze medal is for?
Its for the second place loser.
In a country in which one of the founding principles is 'All men being created equal' bronze policies are unacceptable to me.

[Bluenorthwest]

89. ER doctors and nurses do not do billing

they often have no idea about it at all. Go ask in the front office.

[Political Heretic]

54. Is it going to help a lot of people in the short term? Yes. In the long run? No.

That's the problem.

Well that and its also not going to help a lot of other people.

Look, all this bill does is punt the problem down-field.

Without regulations, both the cost of care and the cost of insurance continue on their exponentially increasing path, and the % cost of health care for families goes up....and up....and up..... and up....

And we're right back where we started, except with a bunch of shitty law we have to UNDO to move forward.

As per usual, establishment short term thinking wins the day.

[Ikonoklast]

59. And this war isn't over. This was the first battle.

There are many more to be fought until our system is truly reformed.


But, this bill is a good start.


We go forward from here.

[PBass]

17. If you can't afford to buy insurance, you get your insurance covered.

And seriously, this whole "I WANT HEALTH CARE COVERAGE FOR EVERYONE, BUT I REFUSE TO PAY FOR IT" is stupid and childish.

[aquart]

21. Define "can't afford."

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PBass]

29. What's "disgusting" is your mixing of histrionics with vague platitudes

Quote
"a total denial of the reality that the vast majority of people without coverage or with inadequate coverage, are simply too poor to be able to afford it."

Those people will have their insurance paid for, by the federal government, under this bill.

[sabrina 1]

44. 'These people' ? Who are 'these people' who will have their

healthcare covered by the Federal Government? The poor already have their health care paid for by Medicaid.

Medicaid paid those bills on time, without the interference of the For-Profit Insurance Corps. The overhead was about 3%.

This bill will give those funds to the Private Insurance Industry who will take out approx. 20% for profit before paying the health care providers. Middlemen who perform no function other than to make a profit. This is what are being called 'subsidies'.

The bill expands the number of people eligible for those subsidies, which of course will provide more profits for the health care industry. And more tax dollars paying for profits rather than going paying for more healthcare.

So we CAN afford more money, we could have spent it on a PO managed for far less money by the government.

And then there are those above the cut-off line. People who have no coverage because they cannot afford it (unless you're a rightwinger who believes they are just faking it to get something for nothing). Now, they are forced to buy a shitty premium or be faced with fines, from the same profiteers, premiums they will not be able to use because of the high deductibles and co-pays.

There are good things in the bill. But there are good things in the current system also, and it's still the worst system in the civilized world.

If facts are histrionics to you, it explains your support for this bill.

[PBass]

46. You said it yourself - there are good things in this bill.

But maybe you'd rather have absolutely NOTHING. Because the fact is the real-world choice is between THIS BILL and getting NOTHING. After a year of fighting over this bill, NOBODY SERIOUS thinks that Congress is going to start over from scratch, and then come up with a bill that is MORE progressive.

And to address your specific desires, there is almost zero political support for completely eliminating the health insurance industry with a stroke of the president's pen. PLEASE GET REAL.

Maybe you'd prefer nothing. I say HOORAY, this bill passed!

[sabrina 1]

49. I also said there are good things in the current system.

Was the current system acceptable to you just because it had 'some good things in it'?

And try to calm down, you are getting yourself all emotional over something relatively trivial. It isn't the end of the world if someone doesn't agree with you.

[inna]

36. +1,000

Excellent post. :thumbsup:

[eridani]

48. The only thing I refuse to pay is to pay to mass murdering intermediaries

I'd have no problem with paying the government to pay doctors to provide care.

[sabrina 1]

50. I'm with you on that ~ n/t

[Political Heretic]

56. Um, NO you don't get your insurance "COVERED." You get a PARTIAL tax-credit.

It does not "cover" the cost of insurance for anyone.

God, people don't even know what the fucking bill does most of the time.

[laughingliberal]

65. How about, "I want everyone covered but I refuse to pay a company that's skimming

millions off the top for executive compensation and profits?"

As for "you get your insurance covered," people under 400% of the Federal Poverty Level will have a subsidy to cover part of their premium. Even if you ignore the fact that the FPL's are seriously flawed in their assessments of how much money people can really live on, the policies will still leave people with very high out of pocket costs for which they won't have help.

[grahamhgreen]

80. You will be paying for the clinics when you pay the 'fine'.

[sabrina 1]

13. Here is Keith on the Mandate and why he is willing to 'go to jail'

rather than support the forcing of people to buy insurance:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/olbermann-i-will-not-buy-this-perversion-of-health-care-reform/

I call on all those whose conscience urges them to fight, to use the only weapon that will be left to us if this bill becomes law. We must not buy federally mandated insurance if this cheesy counterfeit of reform is all we can buy.

No single payer? No sale. No public option? No sale. No Medicare buy-in? No sale. I am one of the self-insured, albeit by choice. And I hereby pledge that I will not buy this perversion of health care reform. Pass this at your peril, Senators, and sign it at yours, Mr. President. I will not buy this insurance. Brand me a lawbreaker if you choose. Fine me if you will. Jail me if you must.

[PBass]

19. You're "self-insured"? Then you have no reason to care.

The mandate is only for people who have no insurance coverage.

[sabrina 1]

31. Are you saying 'I've got mine so to hell with everyone else'?

Maybe you're being sarcastic and I misunderstood.

In case you're serious, he cares because he has principles.

[PBass]

39. I guess I have no idea WTF you're talking about anymore

Your posts are full of emotion but are not very clear. Try to make a coherent point.

YOU SAID YOU WERE SELF INSURED, "BY CHOICE"

I take that to mean you buy insurance as an individual, and not as part of a group. If that is correct, a mandate has no effect on you.

Further, this bill is estimated to reduce insurance policy prices by 15-20 percent.

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. For those without preexisting conditions.

Those with can either pay admittedly high pool rates or die. :shrug:

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

66. I believe she was quoting Keith Olberman as saying he's self insured. nt

I don't expect to see policy prices come down at all. The premium costs may rise more slowly but I don't expect to see them come down a dime from today's level. Obviously, if more people are buying the 'bronze' policies that will be cheaper than the better coverage but apples to apples the premiums will be the same. And I expect to see them continue to rise significantly albeit perhaps more slowly than they would have.

[Warren Stupidity]

96. He will continue to buy his high priced comprehensive plan.

And he is a very wealthy person who could pay for most services out of pocket. Plus he won't go to jail unless he commits income tax fraud.

Please don't confuse rhetorical bombast for actual intentions. Olberman is as likely to join Rush in exile in Costa Rica as to go to jail over a 750 tax.

[4lbs]

22. I will do both.

I will use the free clinics for routine checkups.

If I am diagnosed with a serious problem, then I'll use my health insurance to pay for the majority of the cost.

[cali]

67. they are NOT free. payment is on a sliding scale. and they accept insurance.

[ScreamingMeemie]

27. With rates like these, I couldn't buy the mandated insurance if I wanted to!

http://www.txhealthpool.com/01-01-2010_Regular_Rates-Instructions_Posted_11-17-09.pdf

[Juche]

34. What about traumatic accidents?

Also community clinics do not do major surgery, chemotherapy and other interventions like that. They are mostly for mental health and primary care.

[cali]

68. and diagnostic and dental care

and much more.

[FrenchieCat]

41. The clinics won't be free....unless you have no income.

The clinics charge on a sliding scale.

Health Care isn't "free", not even in Europe.
If you think that, than you are naive.

[sabrina 1]

45. Europeans are willing to pay into a system that provides care

for all of their citizens. No one with some functioning brain cells ever said that a Single Payer system is free. It is an agreement by society that health care is not a commodity, it is a right and is paid for by a tax system that everyone has agreed to.

Here even on a democratic board, we have far too many people who have been indoctrinated into believing that there is some value in a for-profit health care system and that the right to make money trumps the 'right to life'. And that is why there is any support at all for a system that continues, in fact entrenches this draconian system we have in this country. As long as people refuse to unite behind a single payer system, or at least a PO, we get what we deserve. This society is simply too regressive at this point to fight for that right.

[FrenchieCat]

51. I was posting based on the OP's headline about "Free" clinics.....

those are only free for those who fall under the poverty level.
Others pay on a sliding scale, so they are not truly generically "free".

As for single payer, if you didn't notice, this particular country
can't handle that kind of upheaval in their lives.....did you see
how they went crazy with just the Moderate middle of the roads reforms made?
Don't overestimate Americans, especially those that live in the middle of the country.

I think that's why Obama's plan wasn't radical, because had it been, it wouldn't have passed
today, because for all of their lies, had it being a single payer health plan being passed,
it would have made a lot of what those Crazies were saying about this plan true. As it is,
the claims of Government takeover isn't technically true.

Note also that is why Obama is phasing everything in over time as opposed
to doing it all at once. Of course, that also has to do with the
cost issue, and also making sure that what gets up and running actually works.

Single payer here in America all of the sudden?
That would be too much for some of these patriots of ours.
They might just drop dead from the shock.

[sabrina 1]

52. Lol, well you're right about

some of them droppoing dead from shock.

Otoh, there was huge support for a Medicare for All system. That is because they are used to that and I have to admit, some of them were so stupid they did not know that Medicare was a government run program.

I agree that we could not have gotten a SP system. But we needed a PO to ease the way. And I suppose we disagree about how possible that was.

You are right about the people, but since when did government ever care what they thought? Where we probably disagree is I don't think it was because of what the people thought, even those you mentioned likely to have apoplexy over a 'commie' system.

I think the problem was the very powerful Private Insurance Industry who were fighting for their very profitable survival.

Madison Ave. can sell anything it wants to the people. I'm sure they were pushing the propaganda about 'government run programs' and until they start losing some of their power and money, or someone is willing to fight them, we won't have real health care reform for a very long time.

[FrenchieCat]

53. I think we can get a PO in there........

We'll just have to really fight for that. We will have to actually get our asses in the streets
and put pressure on our congresscritters. I think just demanding stuff from Obama ain't gonna do the trick totally. You saw how hard we had to work to bring these congressfolks in line for this vote, don't you? I had to take my ass over to the next district (I'm in a Liberal district so there was nothing to do there) and protest "for" health care reform in order for that congressman to change his vote from no to yes. That's cause there were other forces (propaganda, tea baggers, etc...) working against us as well, like you said, money and shit. Meaning a push back was called for, and that will be the same if we want a PO.

So I think we can get a PO, cause that quite reasonable, as long as we can mobilize for it.

[sabrina 1]

57. I hope you're right, and I'm all for mobilizing now while there is

still momentum. I'm just afraid that now that they won, they will want to forget about it. But, as you say, we will have to work hard and push them whether they like it or not. :-)

[laughingliberal]

71. Harry Reid has promised Sanders he will get a PO to the floor for a vote under reconciliation

It would be good to let him know we are aware of this promise and expect to see it happen. Also, to let our Senators (Reid is mine) know we expect them to vote for it.

[laughingliberal]

69. Nobody thinks the European system is free

What we think is that those systems don't skim billions of dollars off the top for executive compensation and profits. What we think is the money people in Europe pay in taxes to have universal health care systems is mostly used to provide health care for people. What we think is they are able to cover everyone for less money than we are going to spend to still leave 20 million uninsured. And we are doing this because "insurance companies deserve to make a profit?" Sorry. The American people deserve insurance which is focused on their health care and not the companies' profits.

[cali]

62. Fuck anyone who can afford to pay for health services who goes to

a CHC and tries to get services for free. that involves being a lying piece of shit.

[dionysus]

64. right on.

[grahamhgreen]

70. Your not, by paying the fine and copay you are simply using a national plan

[laughingliberal]

72. That's a point. The fines people will pay will, we hope, be put back in the system

to cover for some of the uncompensated care.

[cali]

76. even if you pay fines, if you can afford to pay for health services you use

at a CHC, you will be charged. furthermore, if you have insurance they will take it.

[cali]

73. you know absolutely nothing about CHCs

lucky for you, I do. I have (subsidized) insurance but I get my health care at a CHC. You can't get health services for free at a CHC unless you can't afford to pay. period. and yes, they check it. They charge on a sliding scale and they take insurance.

[grahamhgreen]

86. How expensive is the co-pay for someone who is middle income?

[cali]

88. are you referring to my subsidized insurance?

[grahamhgreen]

97. No, the CHC's. How much does one have to pay for a visit to the CHC's if you

make, say 40,000/yr?

[Fire1]

74. PLUS, why in the hell would I spend all day or night at a clinic

just to get antibiotics or something when I can call my doctor's office, get a script called in to my pharmacy, pick it up, have a good nights sleep and go to work in the a.m., JUST to prove a point?? I don't think so.

[cali]

78. uh, my CHC operates just like a regular doctor's office.

I have a doctor there who is my primary care physician. I can call her and get a 'scrip. It's no different than any other doctor's office I've ever received care from.

[Fire1]

79. In Vermont, I guess so! But not in the 'clinics' I've seen here!

Hopefully, that will change in the near future.

[grahamhgreen]

84. Can you get a new scrip over the phone? Maybe a refill.? I'm sure CHC's would do the same, if legal

[Fire1]

85. Free clinics don't offer that service here. n/t

[grahamhgreen]

87. What I've done in the past is get much cheaper prescription meds from Canada over the internet.

If you don't need to see a doctor.

[ProSense]

75. So there was something good in the bill.

Isn't choice grand?

[grahamhgreen]

82. Choice of a public option would have been better, bu this is why Sanders got on board.

[ProSense]

77. By the time the mandate takes effect, people will be able to

choose a non-profit plan

[grahamhgreen]

83. If you have to, get a non-profit plan. Try to avoid any for-profit plans. I'm sure big crapsurance

will try to undercut the non-profits (the way a Walmart undercuts the local stores) until the non-profits are marignalized, and will then jack the rates as high as possible.

The idea is to give as little money as possible to the big crapsurance companies that will take the money and crush the meager reforms in the bill.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

93. yeah go ahead and suggest it.

in fact you just did.

it is full of the stupid though. So a family should reject access to quality health care and put itself at risk of financial disaster in order to avoid a 750 tax?

Really?

The clinics are not a substitute for comprehensive health care.

[grahamhgreen]

99. No, I'm saying pay the $750 "penalty" (not tax), and then use the clinics, rather than succumb to

the legalized extortion attempting to be perpetrated by big insurance on the American people (We'll see it the mandate passes it's constitutional challenge).

This should work for anyone who currently chooses not to buy health insurance.

It provides them with some coverage through the clinics and creates a greater need for the clinics which could result in the clinics overtaking big insurances role in health care in the long run.

The financial disaster still looms for families under the bill. In fact a Bronze plan only covers 60% of costs, so one illness could easily wipe out most families.

In sum, the clinics might not be a substitute for comprehensive care, but most of the plans in the bill do not provide comprehensive care anyway (in fact the Platinum only covers 90%).



From the bill:

"HR 3590 EAS/PP
(d) LEVELSOFCOVERAGE.—
6
(1) LEVELSOFCOVERAGEDEFINED.—The levels
7
of coverage described in this subsection are as follows:
8
(A) BRONZELEVEL.—A plan in the bronze
9
level shall provide a level of coverage that is de-
10
signed to provide benefits that are actuarially
11
equivalent to 60 percent of the full actuarial
12
value of the benefits provided under the plan.
13
(B) SILVERLEVEL.—A plan in the silver
14
level shall provide a level of coverage that is de-
15
signed to provide benefits that are actuarially
16
equivalent to 70 percent of the full actuarial
17
value of the benefits provided under the plan.
18
(C) GOLDLEVEL.—A plan in the gold level
19
shall provide a level of coverage that is designed
20
to provide benefits that are actuarially equiva-
21
lent to 80 percent of the full actuarial value of
22
the benefits provided under the plan.
23
(D) PLATINUMLEVEL.—A plan in the plat-
24
inum level shall provide a level of coverage that
25
115
is designed to provide benefits that are actuari-
1
ally equivalent to 90 percent of the full actuarial
2
value of the benefits provided under the plan.
3
"

[optimator]

94. paying the fines is still obedience

since the govt is now a collection agency for corporations.

[grahamhgreen]

100. yes, but the money is not going directly to the corporations - a small, but

significant distinction.

[kenny blankenship]

98. If you overload those clinics they will just declare them "unsustainable" and cut them

Whenever a social welfare program reveals just how much desperation and intractable poverty is built-in to American society, it always becomes marked for death. Remove the "eyesore", cut out the eye if it offends, defund, deny, move away, self-segregate and let the Devil take the hindmost.

"Look at all the poor people jammed in this clinic - squalor everywhere. See how social welfare programs never work? Shut it down."

[LynneSin]

101. May I suggest people read the bill, look over the plan and make up your own minds

nuff said.

[mdmc]

103. If you are healthy , ROCK ON!

[grahamhgreen]

104. If you are sick, pray that the insurance companies are forced to cover you and

the trillions they now have to lobby congress with is ineffective at allowing them to overlook the weak reforms in the bill.