Can they arrest you for not paying the fine if you don't purchase insurance?

[Powdered Toast Man]

I'm arguing with a freeper and I need to know. I figured they got it off Fox News, but I don't know.

[cecilfirefox]

1. No, no one will be arrested. Its just a fine, and to be honest- this is the only part of the bill

that makes me cringe.

[Powdered Toast Man]

2. thanks. n/t

[Skittles]

4. what if they tie it to your credit rating

will you cringe even more?

[Powdered Toast Man]

6. least of my worries.

I'm in the "in need of subsidizing" group.

[Matariki]

28. Isn't it collected by the IRS?

what happens if you don't pay money owed the IRS?

that's a rhetorical question - I happen to know that life gets quite unpleasant.

[FrenchieCat]

3. They will not arrest you, they will not levy you, they will not lien your property.....

it is not a criminal fine. That's the language in the section.

It will be calculated and billed when you file your tax return.

It will be $94.00 the first year in 2014,
$350.00 the 2nd year in 2015,
and $695 the 3rd year or 2.5% of your income,
and that's where it will stay.

If you make under a certain amount, the fine will be forgiven,
and there will be exemptions available.
You must go without insurance for at least 3 months in a row
before the fine applies, and then it most likely would be prorated,
e.g., not coverage for 3 months, then you get insurance which you only
keep for 2 months, and then go another 5 months without insurance,
I'm sure they may even be a worksheet added to the tax return....
because there will also be tax rebates for insurance, but I'm not sure
how that all works.

What will probably happen is that Insurance companies will have to provide you
and the government some kind of form 1098 or something,
as a way of reporting how much premium one paid on a policy, I would presume.

Anyways, I think that it will all be kind of common sense like added bureaucracy,
but for good reason.

[Powdered Toast Man]

5. Thank you!

Exactly what i was looking for.

Copy.
Paste.

Thanks!

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. But it still depends on what THEY (millionaire members of congress)

say you can afford, rather than on what YOU say you can afford.

[FrenchieCat]

8. It's based on a formula....

Something like 85% already have health Insurance or are on Medicare.
That's why the number of uninsured in a population of 300 million,
is like 47 million. Of those 32 million will get coverage....be covered.
That leaves undocumented immigrants and those who choose not to be covered.
I think the undocumented are about 10-12 million of what's left,
so we are then talking about approx 4 million that will choose
to be fined because either they don't want to pay more than $695 per year,
or because they don't think they can afford it, although if they can't afford that,
then they may be eligible for subsidies, and in fact may be eligible for medicaid.
We should also note that the community clinics will also be able to see
folks that kind of fall through the cracks....I'd think those may be
undocumented workers and their families and the choose to be uninsured.

Also, there are exemptions in where one can opt out of having to have insurance,
although apart from religious reasons, I'm not sure what else there is.

[upi402]

10. Thanks for that

Very clear and easy to understand.
:kick:
Do green card holders get in? Or spouses of US citizens with green cards?

[FrenchieCat]

12. Yes, Undocumented immigrants are the only ones exempt....

clearly a green card holder is a documented immigrant.

[Maru Kitteh]

11. THANK YOU FRENCHIE! Awesome!

[dkf]

14. How are they separating what you owe for taxes and what you owe for the fine?

Isn't it going to be through the same tax return? And you can't escape taxes like you can't escape student loans. They will garnish your wages in perpetuity if you don't comply. I don't understand the mechanism that separates the two.

[Statistical]

34. Exactly they won't. While not paying the HCR fine may not be a crime.

Failing to pay your tax obligations is.

Intentionally defrauding the govt, "marking Yes I have health insurance on IRS form" when you don't to avoid the fine is fraud just like any other attempted tax evasion.

Thinking this will be a magical special non-enforced tax is naive at best.

[TheFarseer]

31. what if you just don't ever pay it?

what can they do to you? someone said they take it out of your tax refund but what if you don't get a tax refund?

[Statistical]

35. It is like not paying any other tax owed to the IRS.

They will tack penalties and interest.
Then seek garnishment, liens, asset seizure.
It pattern of tax evasion indicates intent to defraud government they will attempt to have you incarcerated.

The govt can call it a fine, or a fine, or a tax. When it comes down to brass tacks the IRS will see you having not met your tax obligation for the year. The idea that it will be a special protected form of tax evasion is silly.

The penalties, fees, and actions will be exactly the same thing as if you didn't report/pay any other form of federal tax.

[Statistical]

37. So if you don't pay the tax then the IRS says "No problem, and don't worry abou paying next year"?

Or are you subject to the same collection/enforcement methods that any other tax evader is subject to?

[JustinL]

9. politifact debunked this right-wing talking point last year

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/29/patients-first/conservative-group-says-youll-be-imprisoned-not-ha/

[Statistical]

36. I wouldn't say completely debunked.

When PolitiFact contacted the Joint Committee on Taxation to confirm the contents of the letter, a spokeswoman said that such communications were confidential, but she pointed us to Section 7203 of the Internal Revenue Code, titled, "Willful failure to file return, supply information or pay tax."

The text of that section appears to jibe with the reported contents of Barthold's note. It says, "Any person required under this title to pay any estimated tax or tax, or required by this title or by regulations made under authority thereof to make a return, keep any records, or supply any information, who willfully fails to pay such estimated tax or tax, make such return, keep such records, or supply such information, at the time or times required by law or regulations, shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $25,000 ($100,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, together with the costs of prosecution." (A House Ways and Means Committee spokesman said that the same rules would apply to the House bill.)

[JustinL]

44. but the Senate bill expressly forbids criminal prosecution

From page 340 of the bill:

(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.--In the case of any failure to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.
(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES.--The secretary shall not--
(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by the section, or
(ii) levy on any such property with respect to such failure.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/22734971/Senate-Democrats-Health-Care-Reform-Bill

[SergeStorms]

13. Well, since the IRS is in charge..........

it would seem that collection will be enforced. If they're allowed to tack on the same interest and penalties that they do with income taxes it could become a VERY expensive proposition for someone not purchasing the insurance.
When they chose the IRS to enforce this boondoggle I was taken back. We've now given them another reason to peer into our lives, and in my estimation, that's not good.

[FrenchieCat]

15. That's not how it will work.

And the reason they chose the IRS, because you will be paying the fine via your tax return.
That's also where you can get your tax credits.

Makes sense to me.

The IRS is actually the best organization to do this.

[951-Riverside]

16. FrenchieCat you understand people go to prison for not paying their taxes, right?

So, yes that's how it will work since "they chose the IRS" to enforce this.

Makes sense to me.

The IRS is actually the best organization to do this.

:eyes: ...Its like the start of the Iraq war all over again except a different party is in charge.

[FrenchieCat]

18. The law is written and implicitly states that not paying the fine

will not be criminally enforced, and you cannot be levied or your property liened.

As a Tax accountant, I can tell you that only a fool would need to be afraid
of the IRS. If you don't pay your tax or you are being fraudulent, you could be
scared, otherwise, I'm not sure why you'd think they are the military or something?
Maybe it's because I've handled so many audits. But personally I know that the IRS
is not the boogeyman. As for your information, they have it all already.....
so I don't even know what you are referring to...this IRS = Boogieman soundbyte.

I think you sound ridiculously paranoid.

[951-Riverside]

20. "I can tell you that only a fool would need to be afraid of the IRS"

I really hope you're not my CPA.

If you don't pay your tax or you are being fraudulent, you could be
scared,

This is a complete contradiction of what you just said.

I'm not sure why you'd think they are the military or something?

I never "said" anything remotely like that.

Maybe it's because I've handled so many audits. But personally I know that the IRS
is not the boogeyman.

No, they just want their money + interest, fines, fees, late fees, etc which amounts to hundreds or even thousands of dollars and if you don't pay without a certain amount of time they continue to add fees and if you ask for a payment plan they tack on fees for that, this is what makes them so scary to some.

BTW, I hope you weren't the one that did your client's taxes in the first place :)

As for your information, they have it all already.....

Thanks for pointing that out.

so I don't even know what you are referring to...this IRS = Boogieman soundbyte. I think you sound ridiculously paranoid.

Again, I never "said" anything close to that.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Maybe because my clients just simply pay their taxes.....

and if they don't have the money, we arrange for an installment plan,
or do an Offer and Compromise.

Perhaps I'm not afraid of the IRS, nor the Franchise Tax Board in California,
because I've been in the business of Tax preparations and audits for the past
25 years. I'm actually quite good at getting back clean audit examinations,
because the IRS doesn't intimidate me. You have to be quite out there
and not filing, not paying and doing wild shit to end up being criminally pursuit
by the IRS; like not answering notices after notices and shit.

But no, unlike what Libertarians think, they are not pure evil, or even worth
crashing a plane into their building.

[Statistical]

39. The question is the OP was specifically about NOT PAYING TAXES!

So how "nice" the IRS is when someone pays their taxes isn't exactly relevant right?

[coti]

17. So, what you're saying is, you can just NOT pay the penalty, and there will be no further

penalties and no tax evasion charges?

I dunno, Frenchie...why don't I believe you? Maybe it's because, no matter what the facts are, you have the same, predictable opinions.

[sabrina 1]

19. Here are the facts about the fines:

Initially there was a probability of going to jail, but probably because of the outrage against it, it was changed. However, it is a complex situation right now. They have found a way to collect the fines, (deducting money from tax returns etc.) so that it minimizes the possibility of people not voluntarily paying them.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/11/imprisoned-for-not-having-health-care/

In the Senate, the Finance Committee’s health care bill was amended to nullify the possibility of jail time for not paying the penalty tax. It stipulates that in the case of nonpayment, "such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure." Instead, the Senate measure would allow the government to collect the tax by deducting it from any IRS tax-refund checks or other government payments. Should the full Senate approve that language, a House-Senate conference committee would have to wrestle with the question of whether or not a person who refuses to obtain coverage and refuses to pay the penalty can be charged with criminal tax evasion.

They've involved the IRS so the question is can the IRS pursue people for this, the same way they can pursue anyone who 'evades taxes'. If they can, then people can go to jail.

It really is indefensible, I haven't even tried to defend it to rightwingers, who normally btw, would have loved to see the poor go to jail for not paying for coverage. They are only against it now because they didn't get to do it themselves. It IS their idea after all.

[FrenchieCat]

21. Look up sec 6111 of the Senate Bill.....

Called Civil Money Penalties - http://www.scribd.com/doc/22734971/Senate-Democrats-Health-Care-Reform-Bill


It tells you right there in black and white that you can't be criminally persecuted (you can for Taxes if it is deemed that you had intented to defraud the government), and that you will not be levied and your property cannot be liened.

They make it pretty clear.

[sabrina 1]

24. I've seen that already. In fact, it is mentioned and quoted

in the article I posted. The Senate Bill's language hasn't been completed yet as far as I know. Here is what the Factcheck article said, quoting part of what you posted:

In the Senate, the Finance Committee’s health care bill was amended to nullify the possibility of jail time for not paying the penalty tax. It stipulates that in the case of nonpayment, "such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure."

That's good. In fact it should never have been an issue in the first place and we have to thank all those people who called and expressed their outrage that it ever was for helping to get this done. However, the IRS has its own laws and the question is, can the Senate, assuming it adapts this language, over-rule the IRS?

Instead, the Senate measure would allow the government to collect the tax by deducting it from any IRS tax-refund checks or other government payments. Should the full Senate approve that language, a House-Senate conference committee would have to wrestle with the question of whether or not a person who refuses to obtain coverage and refuses to pay the penalty can be charged with criminal tax evasion.

It should be brought up before the Senate votes on the bill. It's a good question. I don't know the answer. I do think that the Senate Committee intended to remove the possibility of jail, but do they have the authority? The IRS has a lot of authority to act on its own and if there's a conflict it would be better to fix it now. I would rather know for sure from someone who knows the law on this.

[FrenchieCat]

25. Of course the senate's bill language has been completed!

You are quoting about the Senate Finance Commmittee Bill...which is not the Senate bill that passed,
so what you are quoting is from way back.

[sabrina 1]

26. What I posted was what YOU posted, stating that there would

be no criminal penalty for not paying the fine. My post SAYS it was from the Senate Finance Committee. It went on to say that if it is in the final bill, there would be a question about whether or not the IRS could still use its own laws to criminally prosecute people. Are you now saying that that language is NOT in the final bill? Maybe I'm not understanding you, but wasn't your point that it WAS in the bill?

[eridani]

23. No. The IRS just takes your money. n/t

[safeinOhio]

27. To be fair, lets let people opt out

An agreement to allow one than can afford insurance, but to cheap to pay it, to opt out by automatically being thrown out of the medical system. Only getting medical treatment with cash up front. I don't mind helping those that "can't" afford it. I am tired of paying for cheapskates.

[DailyGrind51]

29. Tell him that they will send him to Gitmo, just before it closes, and leave him there, alone!

[jpak]

30. yes - the evil tentacles of Socialist Big Gummint will find you!111

be afraid!

be afraid!

:rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. Actually, when the government becomes the enforcement arm of

private industry, that is call fascism, not socialism.

[Iggo]

32. Tell him yes.

They'll arrest him, confiscate his guns, and farm out his children to sensible liberals.

[Statistical]

33. It isn't a fine it is a tax and onece enforced by IRS (so your freeper buddy is indirectly correct).

So not having health insurance not paying the tax/fine puts you in hot water with the IRS.

Nonpayment, non-filing, incorrect/fraudulent filing, or late/incomplete payments means you can be subject to fines, penalty interest, garnishments, liens, and seizures. In the most extreme cases if IRS deems your actions to be "intentionally fraudulent" you can be subject to imprisonment.

I am not a lawyer but I would think if you LIED on tax return (indicated insurance when you are not covered) then that would put you in the "intentionally fraudulent" category and you could but put in jail like anyone else who attempts to defraud the federal government.

[stray cat]

38. the amazing thing is you will still get medical treatment at everyone else's expense

[NoPasaran]

40. Arrest?

No, just the express line at your neighborhood death panel.

[Statistical]

41. Internal Revenue Code Section 7203

"Any person required under this title to pay any estimated tax or tax, or required by this title or by regulations made under authority thereof to make a return, keep any records, or supply any information, who willfully fails to pay such estimated tax or tax, make such return, keep such records, or supply such information, at the time or times required by law or regulations, shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $25,000 ($100,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, together with the costs of prosecution."

-----------------------------------

The bill makes not having health-care a tax collected by the IRS. The idea that you can't be arrested for not paying your health-care tax is just as silly as thinking IRS can't arrest you for not paying any tax.

[WeDidIt]

42. There is no fine, there is a tax.

If you refuse to pay your taxes, yes, they can arrest you.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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