The best comment made by any DUer about the passage of the health care legislation

[cali]

was made by Skinner. No, I'm not brown nosing. I'm generally pretty meh when it comes to that poster, but on this he's absolutely right, and said something I've been trying to say for months now.

Skinner said that the gov't has extended a promise of access to the system and that it will be difficult to rescind it. He's right. We've finally moved, with this admittedly imperfect legislation to saying that people have a right to healthcare. No, this legislation doesn't furnish that right, but it moves us in that direction. Language does count. The conversation is now not whether health care is a right, but how to provide access to that right.

That's huge. I know some of you can't see that, but it is a very big move.

[FSogol]

1. I agree K & R. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

2. Yes. This is why I criticize AND support this bill. nt

[Romulox]

3. Remember the promise that children would live better than their parents? That was rescinded

quite easily. :hi:

[madokie]

4. Thats what I thought too

It puts it in a realm of its a right and that is a big step in the right direction,

[hlthe2b]

5. I agree totally... THat is the big picture.

[mikelgb]

6. but some people are claiming it DID furnish everything we wanted

how is that helpful?

and I am very dubious about the notion that this bill promised anything at all

[Orrex]

7. Like who?

In all the posts I've read on the subject, not a single one has claimed that the bill gives everything we wanted or even most of what we wanted.

I'd be interested to learn who has claimed otherwise. Please PM me the links to those discussions.


Thanks!

[mikelgb]

13. a bit of hyperbole on my part actually

I was refering mainly to the post DECLARING this bill actaully furnished healthCARE as a RIGHT

the bill did no such thing

I don't have a problem with people BELIEVING that some subtext in the language secretly pushes in the right direction, I'm just not that optimistic.

[Orrex]

21. Ah! Fair enough.

I, however, have never once engaged in hyperbole in the history of the entire universe.

[NYC_SKP]

8. I've never read that. Not here, not anywhere.

But especially not here. Maybe it was a case of hyperbole or sarcasm.

:shrug:

[kestrel91316]

17. Name one. That's patently absurd. We all agree it's flawed.

[NYC_SKP]

9. Agreed. Recommended. n/t

[northernlights]

10. health INSURANCE is not health CARE

and just because insurance companies will not be allowed turn away your money to buy their shitty (non)product doesn't mean they can't find ways to get out of paying claims.

that is all.

[dkf]

11. That is an illusion.

I don't feel I have guaranteed affordable access. I would say the opposite where I now have a huge burden to pay a significant monthly charge even if I'm not working from birth to death.

If I am so unfortunate as to fall in to dire circumstances I am still expected to spend valuable resources not on eating or housing but on a medical premium that Probably does not provide any value to me.

Beyond that you should watch sicko if you think that having health insurance guarantees you anything. Making a deal with an industry that has demonstrated contempt for common decency brings to mind the old adage "fool me once"

[cali]

15. I didn't say it provided guaranteed access. Neither did skinner

I said it promises that. It changes the terms of the national conversation.

[MindandSoul]

12. YES! Skinner (and you) are totally right!

[Winterblues]

14. Seems almost more of an obligation than a Right.

However it is a step in the right direction.

[kestrel91316]

18. Once you've had a single serious illness or injury, you will never again

consider access to healthcare an obligation rather than a right.

[Winterblues]

22. While I agree with you about serious illness I also understand the meaning of the two words.

My "Right to Speech does not cost me money up front, nor does my "Right" to choose a Religion, nor my "Right" a speedy trial of my peers. When payment is demanded before your "Right" can happen it hardly seems a "Right". I believe with all my heart that Health Care should be a "Right" but unless I have money to pay I can not exercise that "Right" when it comes to Health Care.. A "Right" does not require money to purchase it..However an obligation very well may..

[xultar]

16. I actually think PBS Poll-435 is a more profound poster in all areas especially in Toyota posts.

:hide:

[DirkGently]

19. Disagreement doesn't mean you "can't see"

While the present bill is not completely without merit, it is fundamentally flawed in that it addresses America's problem with access to healthcare with equal or more concern for maintaining insurance and drug company profitability than for the citizenry, and fails completely to alter the paradigm of for-profit healthcare.

We can reasonably call it "a start" if we wish, but we must recognize that if we limit healthcare reform to only that which maintains or increases insurance companies' profits, we are ignoring the fundamental problem, which is the insurance scheme itself.

We have not altered the paradigm.

This reform does not have the qualities that cemented Social Security or Medicare in the public consciousness, because at best (and this is according to our President) it merely curbs some of the worst abuses of the insurance industry.

That's not the same as overturning the idea that our entire healthcare system exists merely as a capitalist enterprise to create huge profits for insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and hospitals, which is the main problem.

We can hope that the present reform will be popular and effective enough to 1) demonstrate that healthcare reform is not the Stalinist nightmare conservatives have "warned" about, and 2) provide consumer protections that future generations will not willingly give up.

But it still leaves insurance companies in the driver's seat, with more customers and more leverage that ever (witness their soaring stock prices) which means that we are still facing a system in which those responsible for providing care are overwhelmingly motivated to give as little of that care as possible.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. You got it.

If I may draw a comparison, it is like saying "Slavery is a crime against the right of a person to have final say over his own life - but indentured servitude, for non-specified periods of time, is OK".

Establishing health care as a right, and then mandating that access of that right is only available through for-profit corporations which are designed to profit off your right, is wrong.

[olegramps]

20. I believe that the attempt at HCR has revealed this:

I am speaking sole for myself in saying that I didn't truly comprehend just how extensive are the problems with American health care.

This is of primary importance in that this discussion has revealed that the problems are so dramatic that the present system can not be sustained.

Of equal importance is the shrill condemnation of any attempt to rectify this disastrous situation by the Republicans and their following of ignoramuses has revealed just how evil these bastards have become. The marriage of the Republican Party with the religious fanatics and their corporate Masters has produced a cult that has attracted the worst elements of our society. These people are as vicious as junk-yard dogs. I have to fully agree with Obermann that the Republican Party deserves to be relegated to the city dump when it can find its rightful place with the stinking garbage.

Yes, I fully agree with those who say it doesn't do enough and I also find those who say it is an important beginning credible. I believe that the expansion of Medicare option to all citizens is the ultimate solution that will break the strangle hold that the Health Care Insurance has used to destroy far too many people. Hopefully, there will be no turning back and this rather limited solution will demonstrate to the citizens that more comprehensive solutions are mandatory.