This moaning about the mandate is driving me nuts

[WeekendWarrior]

The mandate is a TAX. Nothing more. A tax that we will all pay into the system in order for millions more Americans to have health insurance, including ourselves.

Even if the government were to pass a single payer system, you WOULD STILL PAY a mandate. EVERYONE would, in their paychecks every week. Just as we now pay taxes for Medicare.

THAT'S a mandate. Even people at the lowest pay scale pay that mandate.

Just because this particular mandate is done in a different way, does not make it any different.

[msongs]

1. a 50% cut in the bloated military welfare budget would more than cover it :-) nt

[Mari333]

4. amen!!!

http://www.singlepayeraction.org/blog/?p=2421

[Roland99]

7. A 10% cut would pay for it!!

[anarch]

63. and stopping the total waste of money on the "war on drugs" wouldn't hurt, either

And legalizing/taxing most drugs, like we do with alcohol...and treating addiction problems as a medical issue instead of adding to the waste of resources by treating addicts as criminals.

All pure fantasy, I realize, but as long as we're talking about things like cutting the bloated "defense" budget....

[lame54]

70. yes yes yes

[TransitJohn]

2. Nobody'd be pissed if we got single payer...duh.

:crazy:

[quinnox]

21. exactly, its a big difference

between paying a for profit insurance company and paying into a government run single payer system with cost controls, etc.

This isn't that hard to figure out the differences.

[TransitJohn]

27. No, it's not that hard to figure out.

But get prepared to be inundated with the deluge of 'you just want something for nothing' posts. ::wtf: :nuke:

Edit: post title for clarity.

[FBaggins]

3. Taxes go to a government entity. These go to for-profit corporations.

Let me know if I can make that any simpler for you. :)

[Mari333]

5. thank you!!

http://www.singlepayeraction.org/blog/?p=2421

[WeekendWarrior]

6. It MAKES NO DIFFERENCE

it terms of the benefits received by the people who need it. You would STILL have to pay if this were a government run system.

Look, I hate the insurance companies as much as anyone, but you'd still have to pay no matter what.

[Lars39]

19. The benefits received under this system will not be evenly dispersed.

[WeekendWarrior]

44. The benefits under a GOVERNMENT system

would not be evenly dispersed. Someone somewhere would get screwed. It happens all the time.

This system isn't perfect, but it will help MILLIONS and we have to pay for it.

[Lars39]

51. You'd stand a higher chance of everyone getting the same type of care

with a government system. With the current system you're playing roulette as to whether the insurance company will pay on your claim.

[WeekendWarrior]

71. We are talking about the REAL WORLD here

And in the current state of our country, a government system is impossible. Hopefully that will come in time. I would prefer it, of course. But right now we're talking real world -- and this is history.

[Lars39]

75. Nope, you're talking the world where corporations are people.

And the almighty dollar rules supreme.

[WeekendWarrior]

77. And your point?

Then WORK TO CHANGE THAT instead of moaning about a mandate. Health Care is a necessity that has to be paid for. Whether we pay to corporations or pay to the government, IT STILL HAS TO BE PAID FOR.

End of story.

[FBaggins]

78. "Moaning about a mandate" IS "working to change that"

Can't understand why you are blind to that.

[Lars39]

81. Paying a corporation for insurance does not guarantee healthcare.

[walldude]

85. And in the current state of our country, a government system is impossible

It is? Can you explain why? Because from where I'm sitting this bill was passed without the help of a single Republican. So apparently we could have passed whatever the hell we wanted, so can you explain your comment? What is it that is keeping us from having single payer?

[havocmom]

25. Being required to purchase from a corporation is most certainly a difference

And if the discussion so distresses you, perhaps you need to take a break, as we are not gonna stop discussing because you want the discussion to stop.

[John Q. Citizen]

29. The privitization of government is a pernacious and dangerous road. It led to the last finacial

meltdown and it's going to lead to the next.

We can't vote out private management in various insurance co we are forced to pay money to. It's inherently un-democratic.

[WeekendWarrior]

37. Oh, for crap's sake

This is NOT the privatization of the government. This is using a system THAT'S ALREADY IN PLACE and making it available to almost EVERYONE through a mandate.

This fucking sky is falling rhetoric is just getting SO tiring.

[John Q. Citizen]

50. I'll fight it to the end. Privitization is bad public policy.

[FBaggins]

76. Really? Then how is it different from the Republicans' plan for Social Security?

Heck... it goes them one better. This is like requiring people to open personal retirement accounts and deposit a percentage of their salary there - with a government match for some. At least the republican plan would be optional and for just a portion of your retirement savings.

That system is ALSO "ALREADY IN PLACE" and could be made "available to almost EVERYONE through a mandate"

This fucking sky is falling rhetoric is just getting SO tiring.

Nope... it's the f-ing "This was the best we could do with large majorities in both houses and a 'liberal' President... so everyone should be happy" rhetoric that is getting SO tiring.

Message to "Democratic" congressmen: Your best isn't good enough.

[FBaggins]

38. To you perhaps... not to others.

If it REALLY "makes no difference" - then why not do it correctly?

[WeekendWarrior]

46. Because in the current political

climate, "doing it correctly" would be impossible and you'd wind up with nothing. 40,000 people dying every month. Is that REALLY what you want? Are you really siding with the Republicans on this?

[laughingliberal]

67. I believe it could have been done a little more correctly than it was

Perhaps single payer was impossible in the current political climate. Doing it without creating any publicly administered option was a choice. And that could have lowered the 'tax' many will be paying.

Was there no thought to helping to keep our 'tax' a little lower and getting more value for our money? Or is it only important to make sure the taxes of the wealthy are kept low? After 30 years of paying the increased payroll tax Ronnie used to shift the tax burden from the workers to the wealthy I'm a little tired of my money being used to make sure the rich can continue to get richer. I don't begrudge, for a minute, the money going to extend Medicaid but I'm really pissed they are going to be taxing us to make sure the insurance, hospital, and pharmaceutical corporations can continue to increase their profits for executive compensation and shareholder dividends.

[FBaggins]

74. Lol! Oh please!

Are you seriously going to sit there and wring your hands that we just have NO CHOICE but to put profits into the pockets of the insurance company executives and then tell ANYONE else that they "side with the Republicans on this" ???

Gutsy.

Not rational... but certainly gutsy.

The "political climate" is not like the weather and entirely out of our control... it exists in its current state because of poor planning and strategy on the part of our "leaders" (sic). We are under no obligation to just accept it as the way things are.

[Orsino]

68. We'll have to pay a lot *more*...

...than we would to run a non-profit system--and part of the new profits we'll be forced to generate for the insurers will be funneled into elections so as to prevent further reform.

The differences are enormous.

[Raineyb]

72. Oops! Didn't mean to do that twice n/t

[Raineyb]

73. YES IT DOES.

See I can do all caps too.

The government can do it for cheaper than these bloated rapacious insurance companies. So not only are we being forced to pay insurance companies but we're being ripped off while they're doing it. Private industry and its profit motive has NEVER provided anything for the commons cheaper than the government could.

A government system couldn't get away with this tiered nonsense that it's foisting on us either. It would have to cover EVERYONE equally. Does this bill do that? Hell no! So yes it does make a difference. It makes a goddamn big difference. Unless the idea of people having inadequate coverage with government funds doesn't bother you.

[Roland99]

8. Bingo!!

[NYC_SKP]

13. So do many, or even most, tax dollars. Contractors, Aircraft mfgrs, Halliburton.

Not that I don't prefer single-payer without the insurance industry.

But even then, hospitals and doctors and medical supply corporations....

All are for-profit.

[Fumesucker]

16. I've never written a check to Halliburton or Lockheed..

Have you?

[FBaggins]

35. Nope

They may end up there... they are not paid by the taxpayer to the corporation.

[Leopolds Ghost]

58. Federal procurement is enormously regulated. And even then you have Eisenhower warning about "MIC"

[KharmaTrain]

80. And Then Those Dollars Go To Private Corporations...

You've heard of the military-industrial complex I assume...that our tax money going to a private corporation. Then there's the companies that build and fix roads...another private corporation. A lot of our tax money goes to corporations...we have no say as to whom and how much. And I won't even get into the bank and GM bail-outs.

[ericinne]

9. It bothered me too

The mandate DID bug me too, but then, if you think about it, it's NOT gonna kill anyone to be mandated. $695 fine? Ya just take it off your tax return as a credit you were already allowed. If you look at what involved in it, if you REALLY can't afford insurance, you will NOT be penalized even though it is mandated.

Starting in 5 years: Most Americans will be required to buy health insurance coverage or pay a fine. However people earning up to 400 percent of the poverty rate ($88,000 at present) can receive healthcare tax credits to assist them. Penalties for not having insurance will be $95 for 2014, $325 for 2015, $695 in 2016 (or up to 2.5% of income in 2016). Families will pay half the amount for children, with a maximum cap of $2,250 per family. Individuals will not be penalized if affordable coverage is not available.

[Leopolds Ghost]

62. If all these loopholes exist, then the only point of the mandate seems to make it difficult for

"those who stubbornly choose to remain uninsured" in the face of demand inflexibility in the marketplace.

[mike_c]

10. no, it's a PROFIT for health insurance executives and investors....

I agree with you that a single payer system would be paid for by taxes, and that everyone would pay. Operationally, that's the same as mandated purchases, at least at the level of the payer's balance sheet. The difference between that and the insurance mandate is that a significant portion of the mandate will not be spent on providing services-- it will be spent fattening the wallets of insurance companies and their investors. That is a direct tax BY THE WEALTHY on the rest of us, rather than a government tax to fund the general welfare.

[Mari333]

+1000000000000000

[Fire1]

30. You got a link supporting that last sentence or is this your

"impression?"

[mike_c]

33. the sun rises in the morning and the sky is blue....

"You gotta link for that?" :rofl:

No, it's not an "impression." It's a metaphor. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

49. that is exactly it....

[laughingliberal]

69. I consider the insurance industry the wealthy

With profit increasing 408% over the years that wages stagnated and declined? Damn right they're the wealthy. And any money being spent up and above what it costs to administer Medicare is going to profits. Medicare operates at 4% overhead and the insurance companies at 30%. Even if they comply without cheating with the new MLR, they are allowed 15%. Still 11% more than what the government could do it for. It's our money. We needed a better value for it. More needed to go to extend care to more people and less to the vultures.

[Matariki]

11. If you wish to frame it that way, then please read the 24th Amendment of the Constitution

We did away with Poll Taxes for a very good reason. Educate yourself.

[Fumesucker]

12. Yeah, we can tell..

Some of us just truly fucking hate health insurance corporations..

Ever wonder why that might be?

[enlightenment]

14. Nice try, but wrong.

Yes, you could consider the mandate a 'tax' - if you accept that we now pay taxes to private, for-profit corporations.
Yes, we would pay a 'mandate' - in the form of a tax - for a single payer system.

The difference is that the second 'tax' would be giving us access to actual health CARE - not access to health INSURANCE. That's what Medicare is - not insurance, but access to care.

They are not the same thing at all. Try reading something besides talking points.

[joeybee12]

15. The failed logic behind having a mandate is that it widens the risk

pool and keeps down costs? Duh! Makes no sense. You need some sort of competition to get costs down...that's the only way, and there is nothing except insurance company proganda to back up the claim of how a mandate alone will keep down costs.

[Leopolds Ghost]

65. Competition cannot keep costs down if there is no demand flexibility.

The citizen/consumer, in his role as a supposed equal party in a free and honest transaction with the insurer, has to be able to walk away from the table.

Imagine going into an Arab market in Morocco to buy beans. You tell the guy behind the stall -- each and every stall -- that you are required by law to buy beans from ONE of them by the end of the day. You then haggle and comparison shop. You see the problem?

The guy knows you have no choice but to buy from one of them. You can't walk away from the table if the price goes up.

This has major implications in building contracting, where I'm currently doing some project management work for a nonprofit. You never tell the guy behind the counter that you're required to buy an item, not if you want to get it cheaply. And these are "friendly local community" guys.

[mdmc]

17. No it is a fine for being uninsured

We need to tax everyone the same, then offer tax credits to those with insurance. This is only necessary if TSCOTUS screws the constitution..

[Morning Dew]

18. Who knew? We can directly pay taxes to private corporations now?

[Fumesucker]

20. Yes! I want to pay my taxes to ACORN.. n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

22. Privitzation has gone way too far and must be stopped, now, everywhere. IMHO

[Romulox]

23. Details matter. It's a mandate to pay a *private entity*. That's a categorical difference. nt

[grahamhgreen]

52. + 1 and most of the rest of America that understands this.

[DJ13]

24. Many tried to warn that this would be controversial

Sorry you missed the 10,000 posts on it the last year.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. Done in a differnt way? You mean taken by private business

instead of the government. Are you that dense? It is wrong as wrong can be.

[BeFree]

28. Thief!!

You stole my question and made a OP from it..!!!

Da' noobs be learning, eh?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7993925&mesg_id=7994279

The difference is that instead of socialists, the capitalists run the insurance program. Eventually, the socialists will win and will control the health insurance system. But not today. Not just yet. But they will.

[Fire1]

36. Never in a million years. Too many people making WAY too

much money. Forgetaboutit.

[BeFree]

57. Never say never

Millions of people around the world are covered under socialist programs.
We're making that progress right here, finally, starting today.

[dkf]

31. Your medical premium is now the most regressive tax that exists.

It is a huge burden to the middle class but insignificant to the rich.

If it were progressive or even a flat tax the rich would pay a lot more than the middle class for their premium. This does not exist. Instead the sickest and oldest Pools pay the highest premiums.

When you have such a random scattershot tax you simply cannot provide any sort of fairness in the cost or the benefit.

[havocmom]

32. Gee, 'We'll fix it later' already turning into: 'STFU, we're tired of listening?'

Which is pretty much what a lot of us suggested would happen once the thing passed.

Fuggitabout it. We ain't gonna drop the subject. We are gonna fix it, remember? This was just a start, remember?

[ixion]

34. Spot on, havocmom

well said. :applause:

[Fumesucker]

40. +1

[avaistheone1]

41. I think you are correct.

The Dems want to be done with the health care issue. I doubt they are going to pick this up again for another decade.

So tough luck for everyone who does not qualify under this bill.

[WeekendWarrior]

42. Who's saying that?

I'm tired of listening to the bitch and moan crowd about the mandate. But that doesn't even remotely translate into a desire not to FIX this bill.

That will come. In time. As all things do.

[Fumesucker]

53. Yeah, it's going to get fixed just like NAFTA, the PATRIOT act, DOMA.. FISA and telecom immunity

Oh, wait..

[havocmom]

61. Then stop listening/reading. No one is forcing you to pay attention

But your discomfort with continuing dialog does not outweigh the importance of same in a democracy. Nor does it have any power to prevent others from discussing the matter.

Nobody died and left your tender sensibilities as the arbitrator of what discussion is allowed. You do not have to participate. If it bothers you, don't listen.

[mike_c]

56. +1

:applause:

[WeekendWarrior]

43. I seriously think those of you screaming no mandate

need to consider joining the Republicans in their cries against it. Because you certainly sound like them.

[havocmom]

64. "yer either with us or with the terrarists' argument just doesn't fly

One would think that, by now, the tactic of trying to affix labels with bad, and ERRONEOUS, connotation, would have been shown to be crap.

One did not have to be for the 'terrarists' to be against bush/cheney/iraq war. One does not have to for the Republicans to be against bad legislation.

One wonders why that is so difficult for others to grasp.

[Raineyb]

79. Your ignorance of the difference between those who don't want the government

forcing us to prop up the profits of the insurance companies vs the Republicans who are only fighting the bill so they can campaign against it later doesn't make your erroneous conclusions any more correct. And to be frank, I don't give one whit the the fuck you're tired of hearing. Go put your fingers in your ears and yell "la la la la la" for all I care. THAT would be acting like Republicans. The irony of your post amuses me greatly.

[FBaggins]

84. Someone here sounds "like a Republican"... From my #74

Are you seriously going to sit there and wring your hands that we just have NO CHOICE but to put profits into the pockets of the insurance company executives and then tell ANYONE else that they "side with the Republicans on this" ???

Gutsy.

Not rational... but certainly gutsy.

[kestrel91316]

45. I am grudgingly accepting of the mandate because it provides the option to choose a nonprofit

insurer and put some people on Medicare rather than private insurance. It's a step in the right direction. We just need to be sure we KEEP WALKING that way.

[WeekendWarrior]

47. EXACTLY!

A clear headed look at the matter. Thank you.

[kestrel91316]

66. In all honesty, I wish our choices were limited to private non-profit

(such as Kaiser permanente) vs Medicare buy-in. Perhaps we can eventually attain that!

When the profiteers find they have competition from more nonprofit plans, they won't be able to sustain their egregious premiums and high deductibles.

[grahamhgreen]

48. It's NOT A TAX!!!!!!!!!! It's a "penalty" (excerpt from bill)

HR 3590 EAS/PP
‘‘(c) AMOUNT OF PENALTY.—

323
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—The penalty determined
1
under this subsection for any month with respect to
2
any individual is an amount equal to 1⁄12 of the ap-
3
plicable dollar amount for the calendar year.
4
‘‘(2) DOLLAR LIMITATION.—The amount of the
5
penalty imposed by this section on any taxpayer for
6
any taxable year with respect to all individuals for
7
whom the taxpayer is liable under subsection (b)(3)
8
shall not exceed an amount equal to 300 percent the
9
applicable dollar amount (determined without regard
10
to paragraph (3)(C)) for the calendar year with or
11
within which the taxable year ends.
12
‘‘(3) APPLICABLE DOLLAR AMOUNT.—For pur-
13
poses of paragraph (1)—
14
‘‘(A) INGENERAL.—Except as provided in
15
subparagraphs (B) and (C), the applicable dollar
16
amount is $750.
17

[JVS]

54. Since when do taxes instruct you to make the check out to private companies?

Should I have been filing with Halliburton over the last 8 years?

[ROakes1019]

55. mandate

Something I've been thinking for a while but haven't spoken up: Don't require everyone to buy insurance but make anyone who refuses, sign a waiver that they will not seek health care in any emergency room in the country. No one can know when they will need health care. Even young people get in accidents and require medical treatment. So no mandate but no free medical care either.

[Lilith Velkor]

83. What if the uninsured person is unconscious, how will the ER folks know about the waiver?

Ooh, ooh, I know! We could make them get the serial number of the waiver tattooed on their forearms. No, scratch that, foreheads - we wouldn't want to accidentally give free medical care to some deadbeat who lost that arm, would we?

[Riftaxe]

59. Darn whiners, complaining just because

they will be forced to buy health insurance from for profit private companies that they cannot afford use. Bunch of ungrateful bastards, eh?

[laughingliberal]

60. Yes, it is a tax. Paid directly to a for profit company

And it's a lot higher than it would have been under single payer. There is also a good chance a strong public option would lower the tax for people who were buying from the exchange.

[EFerrari]

82. No, it is NOT the same. The insurance industry's overhead is MUCH

higher than government run programs so YOU are getting LESS for your money.

[walldude]

86. So....

stop fucking listening? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Go do something useful.