This Is Not A Great Bill But,

[lame54]

It changes the arena in which future health care debates will be fought

[NJmaverick]

1. For decades or nation sat frozen, unable and unsure where and how to take the first step

We have finally taken that all important step and took it in the right direction. The journey has begun and we have the wind at our backs.

[gratefultobelib]

2. Well said, NJ!

[galileoreloaded]

5. A little over 50% of the country agrees!!

:woohoo: :thumbsup:

[goclark]

3. It is a great bill to me

but I do appreciate your willingness to state your thoughts in a positive manner.

[no limit]

6. Mandating middle class americans to come up with money they don't have makes this a great bill?

Look, I can understand the argument that this is better than nothing, even if I disagree with that argument. But to pretend this is a great bill is denial to the degree that I haven't seen on this site before.

[rocktivity]

8. Something can be done about that

And if Obama and the Dems want to seal the deal for the November elections, they will.


rocktivity

[no limit]

10. Like I said, denial like I've never seen here before

nothing will be done about that. You need to stop pretending.

[rocktivity]

14. I DIDN'T say they would. I said they WOULD if they were REALLY smart

rocktivity

[no limit]

17. I'm just telling you they won't

put the boxing gloves down, have a beer instead :toast:

[goclark]

15. Your eyes must be wide shut because

there has been praise all over this site for this bill.

Keep them shut and while they are closed, think of every member of your family/friends/neighbors/coworkers and visualize what can happen to them.

I don't care if I have to pay more for anything when I know that my little cousin that is in the hospital now will be able to stay on his Mom's insurance until he is 26 years old.

That's just for starters!

Wide Open Eyes Here

[no limit]

16. My eyes are wide open, as a result I'm willing to look at all the hurtful things in this bill

you choose not to. Plenty of threads and posts here from Americans that will not be able to afford the mandate that will be forced on them. If you haven't seen those threads or posts you haven't been paying any attention or you are ignorant by choice.

[Egnever]

19. Yes

Health care cost money no matter what type of health care bill we passed people would have had to pay, to pretend thats untrue is denial.

[no limit]

24. No shit sherlock. The issue is that this cost is unaffordable to many people

and will continue to be unaffordable. I have a hard time believing you don't understand this, I think you're being ignorant to this fact by choice.

[Egnever]

25. nothing changes that fact with any other system

Be it single payer or public option or whatever flavor you choose to get everyone covered people who arent paying now would have to start paying its unavoidable no matter what system you choose. I have a hard time believing you don't understand that.

[no limit]

26. The issue is who do you shift the cost to

do you force the guy making $10 an hour living pay check to paycheck to come up with $200 a month? Or do you shift that cost to the guys making $200 an hour? The answer is obvious, well it should be obvious. But our government and people like you don't seem to understand that concept. You people can not comprehand that if someone doesn't have $200 bucks sitting around mandating them to come up with that $200 isn't going to make that money appear.

[laughingliberal]

28. Thank you! I don't know why it is so hard for people to see that continuing to shift costs to

working and middle class Americans is a lot of what got us where we are now. They are not going to stop until there is no working or middle class left at which point they will turn the lights out, put the country on a nice IMF style austerity program, and move on to the next developing nation whose people are ripe for exploitation.

[no limit]

31. If you take the example of a adult making $10 /hr a $150 /month mandate is 8% tax

now imagine if someone suggested raising the tax of the top 1% in this country by 8%. All hell would break loose. But raise it by that amount on the lower middle class and it becomes a great moment in history.

[laughingliberal]

33. Yep. nt

[FBaggins]

34. That's not correct.

If the person makes $10/hr then he would get tax credits to make the insurance more affordable. The credit would reduce his net premium to $70-$100/month for an attractive plan (copays and deductibles capped at 15%.

If the same person is married then his premiums would be limited (net tax credits) to about $60/month (and out-of-pocket is now capped at 6%).

If he's married with two children, he qualifies for medicare.


There is no scenario where he pays 8% of his income. The worst case scenario is about 4-6%

[no limit]

36. I dont know where you get $60 /month from. A person making $10 an hour:

Will pay $100 a month under this bill. So fair enough, not $150 but $100. That's about a 6% tax increase. You think a 6% additional tax on the middle class is a good idea? What would happen if a 6% tax was proposed on the top 1%? All hell would break lose. Yet that would generate more than enough to make that person making $10 an hour afford insurance without any additional burden on them.

My source: http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx

[FBaggins]

40. It's from the WaPost calculator

And yes, I think that 6% of a close-to-minimum-wage single person's income is a very reasonable price in exchange for decent health insurance if he doesn't have any now (absent a single-payer program).

You also ignore the fact that he may HAVE coverage now... in which case this very likely SAVES him money over his current insurance (and with better coverage).

Are you saying that health care should be free for everyone by the wealthiest? Single-payer countries still have taxes that fund the program and they aren't limited to the wealthy.

[no limit]

41. No, I think it should be paid for in terms of a tax

a progressive, not regressive (as in this case), tax.

What you think is reasonable doesn't mean it's affordable. If we mandated everyone buy a $50,000 car but gave them a 50% off coupon that price would be reasonable too; doesn't mean people would be able to afford it.

What we did here is shift the tax burden from the rich to the poor. And I have a hard time understanding how self identified progressives support such a thing.

[Mari333]

38. lord there are a LOT of people in denial on here

about this, and a lot of other things.

party first, even when the party is full of murderous assholes.

[lame54]

7. I should have added...

for that it is a great day

[Egnever]

18. Its a great bill to me as well

And its not the end. We can improve on it going forward.

[no limit]

29. Well if you close your eyes and totally ignore the points being made against this bill

I can certainly see how you hold that opinion.

[Egnever]

32. Total horse shit

This bill directly impacts my life positively in every way there is no downside to this bill for me or my family. We pay for insurance already and would continue to do so with or without this bill as long as humanly possible. My son has diabetes and this bill has ensured that he will never ever have to worry about being denied coverage for that.

It may suck for you but there is absolutely no downside whatsoever for me.

I defy you to point one out to me.

[no limit]

37. Ahh I see. So as long as it helps you it doesnt matter who it hurts?

Got it. Thanks.

[Ian David]

4. If it was really terrible, the GOP wouldn't have been so against it. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

9. Yes they would have. They were against THEIR OWN 200 proposals that got into it.

Wake up.

:eyes:

NGU.

[lame54]

11. The bill is not great but,...

the political win is fantastic

that is what they are crying about

[ClassWarrior]

12. Exactly.

NGU.

[Javaman]

22. Exactly right. Given the current political landscape...

this was equivalent of a boxer landing a blow that makes his opponent visibly stagger.

On top of that, this refills the political capital bucket for Obama.

[Raineyb]

39. I prefer good policy than passing something just for the sake of passing something. n/t

And policy-wise this bill doesn't cut it.

[ClassWarrior]

42. How about for the sake of keeping the health reform debate alive? Because, if the bill had died...

...it's likely so would have the debate for another 15 or 20 years.

NGU.

[FBaggins]

13. You mistakenly assume a binary world

where anything that is unacceptable to Republicans must be great for Democrats.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. There's a whole universe of possibilities that would be objectionable to BOTH ends of the political spectrum...

...and down that road lies potential political suicide. Bad enough (by their standards) to anger their base but not good enough (by our standards) to excite ours - that's very precarious ground to stand on.

[Bucky]

20. You had me at but.

BUT I do agree we shouldn't allow the spineles sell out to entrenched interests to be the enemy of the good.

[Javaman]

21. I've sucked it up. I wasn't behind this bill, but it pushes the conversation forward

to the ultimate goal of a public option.

So, as a result, I support this bill.

In this case, the end will justify the means.

[FBaggins]

23. Is it REALLY "forward" ?

If the "conversation" doesn't progress in the next few months, it gives Republicans and their base enough to be upset about but won't give our base much to cheer about. They have to take our word on how it will improve over time (benefits they don't see until 2014(?)) and/or fixes that we promise them in the fiture.

I'm not sure that's a "conversation" that we can run on in November.

I think it WOULD be "forward" if there weren't an election in the next 24-36 months.

[Javaman]

27. The conversation dies if we let it. It's really that simple. I refuse to let it die. nt

[FBaggins]

30. Oh... I agree with that.

I just don't want the conversation to result in significant losses in November (or better put, something that can be SPUN as losses due to this conversation). If it does, then we're in a worse position than we began. The meme becomes "the American People don't want this. Democrats were crushed when Clinton tried to push it and they were crushed again when Obama tried it." It becomes the new "third rail" and we don't make real progress for decades to come.

We have to get past November safely.

[Javaman]

35. Well, the senators and reps have to do their jobs and I have to do mine.

if they choose to bring up the public option, I will support them, if they don't I will keep writing and calling.

My feeling is this: The right wing echo machine has made more of this being a negative thing than it is in reality. People want this. I refuse to allow the right wing to dictate to me or my congress people what needs to be said and done.

We either stand on the pillars of what makes a traditional democratic party great or we allow the morons, who fight against their own best interests, to shape our world for the next several generations.

The surface fight is about health care, but the real concern at hand is how we move forward as a nation.

The democrats have been usurped by right wing elements. Granted this bill isn't all that it could have been, but it's a step in the right direction of what it really means to be a democrat and a nation that actually cares about it's citizens more than it's corporations.

If we allow this golden opportunity of political merit to pass without so much as a fight, then not only do we fail as democrats but we fail as human beings. Because, like global warming, we will have shirked our responsibility to provide for the future.

We have the answers and the repubs have nothing. Now is the time, more than ever, now that this bill has passed to take full and complete advantage of that.

Never ever allow ones foe to get back on their feet.