From 100K lawyer to 450 week unemployment

[Liberal_in_LA]

This bleak landscape is leading more middle-class families, like the Tanners, to turn to government assistance programs.

The family's economic slide began in August when Heather Tanner lost a $100,000-a-year job. Her husband, Carl, 43, had been a stay-at-home dad for their 6-year-old son and 4-year-old daughter, so the loss of her income forced the family to rely on her $450-a-week unemployment benefits for food, shelter and utilities.

"It's a strange world I find myself in, to go from making $100,000 a year to making $24,000 a year," said Tanner, who has found some contract legal work and part-time jobs but nothing solid in the past seven months.

How many people have been pushed out of homes or apartments because of unemployment is unknown. But with 2.4 million Californians out of work, and an unprecedented 35 percent of them falling into the long-term unemployment bracket, the distress is intense, said Jean Ross with the California Budget Project in Sacramento.

"People are staying unemployed much longer, and even if they had a cushion they're burning through it," she said.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/03/23/BUUO1CI40P.DTL&tsp=1#ixzz0j1o6pMgV

[provis99]

1. how the heck can you make $100,000 a year, and by 43 have no money?

Geez, some of these clowns run through money like it was water. They couldn't even save up $10k in case of an emergency? I was living on $6,000 per year in Mississippi in the mid 90s, and I even managed to save a little money. Hard to feel sorry for these yuppies.

[Liberal_in_LA]

2. She's 37, one income family, 100K doesn't go far in Pacifica

[provis99]

3. so move to North Dakota. Its cheap there, and they need lawyers.

If they don't do that, I don't feel sorry for them.

[PVnRT]

7. Lovely attitude

I suppose it's easy to move for people like you with a trust fund to live off of.

[provis99]

15. as per my earlier post, I could live off of $6k per year in Mississippi, and save money.

So I don't feel sorry for them making six figures and not saving a cent.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Subdivisions]

25. Sigh. How do you live in N. Dakota to perform a job located in CALIFORNIA? n/t

[Donnachaidh]

66. there are lots of areas around Pacifica that don't cost as much

I think that's the point. Maybe saying move to east Wazoo is a bit much, but no one is chained to a specific area in SoCal - especially if you own a car.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. How Can A Family Of Four Live In Mississippi On 6K A Year Without Massive Government Assistance?

How can one person live on that sum?

[provis99]

33. I rented a house for $215 per month the year I made $6k, in Oxford.

food, especially meat, is a lot cheaper in Mississippi than California I imagine. Food in Indianapolis is more than twice what it is in MS. I've seen plenty of families around the state living on under $20k for a family of four, because the cost of living is low. You just don't get lots of luxuries, but all the basics are covered.

Sounds like California girl is griping about missing the luxuries.

on edit: Oh, and forget about government subsidies in MS; welfare is under $200 month for a single mother and child. But the state unemployment level is low, around 5% I believe.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. That's Leaves $385.00 A Month

That leaves $385.00 a month for a car, clothes, food, utilities, and health insurance for a family of four per month.

I don't think they can make it.

[merh]

83. You haven't a clue and you don't know what you are talking about

Unemployment in MS is at 9.5 to 10 and I don't know of anyone that can live on $6k a year, especially a family of 4.

Rent hasn't been at 215 a month in years - I don't think you can find any apartment for that in any city in Mississippi.

A room in a crappy hotel might go for that, but that gets you just the room and maybe a private bath.

----------

MS unemployment

%
January 2009 8.2%
January 2010 10.9%

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?rgn=26&ind=23&cat=1

[PassingFair]

95. I can see you're not including health insurance in your "basics".

"Luxuries" indeed.

[Juche]

52. Did you have student loans?

Lawyers tend to have high 5 figure and usually 6 figure student loans. So you add in the taxes, health care, real estate and student loan issues this family faced and 100k is different than 100k living in a rural state with cheap housing, no dependents, lower taxes and no student loans.

[intheflow]

68. It costs money to move.

Plus if they own their home they still have to make their mortgage payment along with paying for whatever housing they can find in Mississippi or North Dakota where even the lawyer jobs don't pay as much. You want to eat catfood and live in Oxford, MS, great. Don't wish it on others.

[jxnmsdemguy65]

80. I'm in Mississippi too...

My AGI last year was less than $7,000 and I did OK...

[PassingFair]

96. Grinding poverty for all!!!!

Good plan you guys have for the economy!

:patriot:

[sharp_stick]

8. Ahh classy

perhaps they should find a nice trailer park in the middle of nowhwhere North Dakota and switch to ranching for a living.

Not everyone can live in the middle of some shithole State and still make a living.

[provis99]

18. North Dakota is cheap. don't like it? Try central state New York.

You can buy a huge house in the home of the Baseball hall of fame for around $50k. Most of the area is like that. How about Iowa? Low unemployment, rising wages, a need for workers in the meat packing and construction industries.

Or won't lawyers lower themselves to do jobs only good for us working class peasants? Typical limousine liberals.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. There's A Social Contract

And if you go to school for eighteen years , make good grades, sacrifice much of your social life, and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on education you shouldn't have to be a meat packer. A person smart enough to be a lawyer would figure out that if the only jobs available are meat packers it doesn't make much sense to go to school to say, after the fourth grade.

[provis99]

42. there's no guarantee of a job.

Plenty of engineers, computer programmers, and English PhDs (among others) can't find work in their field. You say there's a social contract; no that wishful thinking. FDR couldn't even get the right to a job passed; that means any job, not the job you want.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. I Understand That

But if I thought the best job I could get was a meat packer I'm not wasting my time going to school except to learn how to read and write.

[Codeine]

82. Fuck that!

I fucking hate the attitude of people who feel that because they went to school and dicked off for five years that they are somehow better and more deserving of a decent income than everyone else! :mad:

"You shouldn't have to be a meatpacker" my ass! With that attitude you need endless manual labot to humble your ass a little.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. As Mao Said "Before you speak, investigate."

As for manual labor I do caregiving. Do you know what a caregiver does?


I believe in a honest days wage for an honest days work; a living wage if you will. That being said if somebody works hard enough to become a doctor or lawyer they should be adequately compensated and not relegated to being meatpackers. If you disagree with me next time you or a loved one gets sick call a meatpacker.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. How Do You Know There Is A Demand For Lawyers In ND?

Do you have a link?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

34. What makes you say ND need lawyers? Link?

[provis99]

44. see above.

[uppityperson]

49. That would be good. What with Microsoft and Medicare there already,

would provide a job boost for the state.

[devilgrrl]

45. The dumbest response ever. And what type of employment is available in North Dakota?

And how low are the moving costs?

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

50. There is a lot of computer software stuff going on in Fargo, as well as health care stuff

It is a big health care place for the region, as well as doing all the medicare billing through ND.

I agree it is a dumb response, but yes, there are jobs in ND, at least in Fargo area.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

54. Ya, because moving and passing the bar in ND is completely free. n/t

[intheflow]

69. Not to mention paying a mortgage in Pacifica

while paying for housing in ND. That poster is delusional and heartless, imo.

[Donnachaidh]

64. and she had to live in Pacifica because???? n/t

[snooper2]

93. And I'm sure they have some nice rides as well

Actually, on edit...looked through the pictures...

making 100K a year and living in a apt., And I don't see many costly purchases. A shitty kitchen table, shitty couch and cheap entertainment center.


Guess they eat steak and lobster each night...

[Egnever]

5. 10k is not much money when your budget reflects a 100k income

I wont argue that they could have lived much more frugally but 10k wouldn't last long with a %1600 + mortgage.

[Duke Newcombe]

9. You'd be incredibly surprised.

$100,000 is quite a bit of money, except for in most parts of California. By the time you get through with a mortgage ($3-5k/month), taxes, insurance, health insurance, fuel (we pay some of the highest prices in the nation, just below Hawaii), and that $100K dissipates quite quickly. Even with saving $10,000, the burn rate through that would carry them for about two to three months, with judicious spending.

[Fresh_Start]

10. she's been spending her savings between August and March

how many months of expenses did you have saved when you were 37 after having two children?

[provis99]

27. I save a whole lot more than her, apparently.

And I've never had a job making more than $35k per year doing construction. Usually less than that.

[Juche]

53. Your expenses were lower

Here are expenses she had that were different than in your situation


4 people to provide food, shelter, transportation and health care for (I get the impression you were providing for yourself or maybe yourself +1)

Likely huge student loans. If she had 90k in student loans that could eat up $700/month or so

Higher real estate costs (rent starts at about $900/month per apartment in large cities in Ca). Her rent is $1800



As a caveat, my brother lives in San Diego. He has his own car and a roommate, and his monthly expenses rarely come to more than $1000/month net income. However he is only supporting himself, has very cheap/no health problems (he takes a few $4/month prescriptions), has no debt, etc.

But add in an extra 3 people to support, get rid of the roommate, add in 100k in student loans and you have a different situation.


According to this website, 100k in Pacifica Ca is equal to about 43k in Jasper Mississippi

http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=100000&city1=50654806&city2=42806100

So imagine raising 4 people on 43k in Mississippi and still having student loans. Its not the same as making 100k in Mississippi.

[truebrit71]

14. 100k in Calli doesn't go that far anymore..

...But we all appreciate your compassion..:eyes:

[provis99]

22. so only California is worth living in, and the rest of America sucks?

[Liberal_in_LA]

28. Exactly!

Just kidding. :P But the weather is nice here.

[Dream Girl]

31. Pretty much!

[Xithras]

36. As my daughter once put it...

...after I became unemployed last year and we were contemplating having to move:

"I'll live anywhere in America, except the places that get snow or have high humidity. Those places just suck."

:evilgrin:

[LeftyMom]

38. That's not entirely true. There are a good three or four livable places outside of California.

Maybe as many as ten if you're not all that picky.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

58. I'm going to point this out yet again.

1) Up and moving across the country isn't free. It's fucking expensive.

2) As a lawyer, she'd have to pass the bar in the new state. That's time consuming and expensive as well.

[Liberal_in_LA]

77. Taking a home full of furniture across the country can cost $5000 or more

[tinrobot]

84. Perhaps California is this family's home.

No offense towards any other place in America, but there really is no place like home.

Besides, moving a whole family to a new state is expensive and takes valuable time away from job searches.

[truebrit71]

98. Yup...that's what I said...

...:eyes:

FYI I used to live in So.California but now live elsewhere in the US...and I'm bloody glad I did..far too expensive..but I didn't pay to move my family either..

[laughingliberal]

17. I'm guessing she didn't start out making $100,000 a year

We had just reached that income level between the 2 of us a couple of years before the world fell apart. Tightened up and saved a downpayment for a house which we thought was smarter than continuing to rent as prices were rising so fast here we thought (and were told) we'd be priced out if we waited any longer. We did not finance the amount we qualified for trying to keep the mortgage under the 25% of our income level. That bought us a nice, modest house in a rural area. The downpayment and getting some of what we needed for the new house took a good part of the savings but our income was enough to meet the expenses and start saving again. That, and the fact that we thought the house would gain some equity in the 15 years before I would be ready to retire seemed to put us in a decent position for being able to retire if we were careful. I increased my 401k contribution hoping we'd have something saved by the time we couldn't work anymore. First year in the house, the housing market cut husband's income in 1/2 and we were feeling the pinch. Year and half later I lost my job. With next to nothing coming in savings went damned fast. Oh, and my husband was diagnosed with cancer right before I lost my job so we had to scrape up the $1200 per month for my COBRA so he could be treated.

Not difficult at all for me to see how it can all be gone very quickly even with good income when disaster strikes.

[Liberal_in_LA]

30. Yes, and she might have big school loans

Sorry you are having a difficult time.

[tranche]

23. You're not a real deep thinker are you?

What do you think, she's been making $100K for her entire working career? I doubt it, and she's the sole earner for a family of four in the West coast... It doesn't go far.

[xultar]

79. I think I love you.

[Greyhound]

26. I'll give you the gory details if you like.

A decade ago I was doing considerably better that this guy, and today I'm indigent.

It's really not hard at all when the game is set up to maintain the status quo at the expense of everything/one else.

[anarch]

57. right

b/c I'm pretty sure she was pulling in $100k a year for all 43 of those years, yeah? So she should totally have saved up $4.3M by now, what's her problem?

[tabbycat31]

81. if she's a lawyer she's probably had six figures in student loan debt

[Yavin4]

89. It's Called Student Loans

She got paid $100K which probably means that she went to a good law school, and those suckers cost a ton. Try $30K-$45K a year for three years. Her student loan payments were probably around $900-$1,200 a month.

[PassingFair]

94. How the heck can you not understand that she lives in California...

$10,000 will probably last about a MONTH in her neighborhood.

I live in MICHIGAN, and with a kid about to enter college
and one in high school, I spend about 3000.00 a month just
on bills and food.

[joeybee12]

4. california has always been bad with unemployment compensation..

...one of the highest costs of living in the country, one of the lowest unemployment compensation payments...I recall when, not that long ago, $300 was the max in california.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. that is bad?

Taking home 1800/mo in unemployment? I'm taking home 1650/mo working 15 years on the job.

[joeybee12]

13. When that pretty much covers your rent, yeah it is bad...

...it's the cost of living that's so high in california that makes what they offer in unemployment so low, compartively speaking.

[laughingliberal]

20. Well, NC DUer, I'm from Tennessee originally and all I can say is

money does not go as far out here in the west. I live in NV which is more affordable than CA and it's a grind.

[tonysam]

43. Nevada is almost unaffordable. $393 a week maximum, with the 25 extra

thanks to the stimulus deal doesn't go very far, not with $650 a month rent in a low-income area, $150 a month in utilities, and then the rest has to go for food, auto insurance, etc.

I am pulling out of there by the end of April and hope I can start saving money to find something closer to my family.

[anigbrowl]

32. Well, one has to take into account the cost of living

The Bay Area is quite an expensive to live - you pay a lot more for everything from property to gasoline. Sales taxes here are around 8% on average. And so on. I was in North Carolina for a month about 2 years ago (for work) and I was just amazed at how low prices were in comparison. Of course, population densities etc. are quite different.

[tonysam]

39. Cry me a fucking river. That's the MAXIMUM UI you can get, and it's taxable.

I was a professional before being jobless. I deserved the maximum.

[SoCalNative]

21. Actually there are MANY places in the US

where the Unemployment compensation is less than CA:

Alabama - $235

Alaska - $320

Arizona - $240

Arkansas - $409

Delaware - $330

District of Columbia - $359

Florida - $275

Georgia - $320

Idaho - $364

Indiana - $390

Iowa - $426

Kansas - $407

Kentucky - $415

Louisiana - $258

Maryland - $380

Michigan - $362

Mississippi - $210

Missouri - $320

Montana - $386

Nebraska - $298

Nevada - $362

New Hampshire - $427

New York - $405

North Dakota - $385

Oklahoma - $392

South Carolina - $326

South Dakota - $285

Tennessee - $275

Texas - $378

Utah - $427

Vermont - $409

Virginia - $363

West Virginia - $408

Wisconsin - $355

Wyoming - $387

[joeybee12]

41. Yeah, but compare the cost of living in CA versus Wyoming...

...you can get by on nearly 1600 in Wyoming....easily.

[provis99]

47. thats my point. she should move to a state where the cost of living is low.

glad someone can see the light. I've gotta go eat, so I'm running from any more responses. Sorry.

[SoCalNative]

63. yes but how many people with families and likely mortgages

can just up and move to another state? Especially when they do not have the money to even pay for such a move?

[SoCalNative]

62. The cost of living in NYC is far higher than in CA

and they only get $405/wk max

[LeftyMom]

6. Here's a hint: When you're making $24,000/year, ditch the $1,800/mo apartment.

They can get a great place out of the bay area for half that, maybe even less, and she can drive/train/bart in for interviews and then commute for a few months once she finds work.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

55. You cannot get an apartment that will support a family like that...

...for $900 anywhere near a BART station or anything less than an hour and a half drive. Plus, moving isn't free. It's an expensive proposition in and of itself.

Edit: And it's difficult to get a new place when you're unemployed with kids.

[LeftyMom]

60. She made $100,000 a year until recently, I think it's safe to assume she has a car.

Moving isn't cheap, but it's certainly preferable to going hat in hand to charities to get your outrageous rent paid.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

73. FIrst of all, that rent is hardly outrageous.

If you think it is, you don't live around here. Second, a lot of rental agencies won't even talk to you if you don't have a job. Especially if you have kids.

[LeftyMom]

75. It's certainly outrageous in a household where nobody works.

And I know perfectly well what Bay Area rents are, which is why I live in Sacramento.

[ecstatic]

16. How easy or hard would it be for her to start her own practice?

I'm sure if she charged reasonable rates she would do OK.

[anigbrowl]

35. Depends on what sort of law she does

If she does criminal defense or family law, it might be quite doable. You'd have the setup costs of renting an office, hiring staff etc. etc., but that's true of any new business. On the other hand, if she does patent law or something, that pretty much requires working for an established firm.

[tinrobot]

85. In a good economy, building a successful law practice takes years.

Unemployment runs out in six months.

edit: But on second thought, what does she have to lose? She should definitely start seeking out clients.

[howaboutme]

48. Much of life is based upon luck

The biggest factors are health and luck and education and you need to be prepared for the bad times by keeping a nest egg. Bad health or an accident can come out of the blue and make things look mighty bleak. This family has three positives - a very good education, 2 healthy kids, and the support of both spouses. That's far more than many Americans have to deal with. I'd suggest the family look forward at their positives and relocate if necessary. California is one of the costliest states and one of the hardest hit. Move east where unemployment is better (preferably a state capital) and costs are much lower.

In the 50s a high school graduate working in a factory probably made an equivalent income to an attorney today. They didn't have the compulsion to buy things and have big houses then (probably because the high tech toys weren't available) which allowed a single wage earner to live fairly well and buy new cars and send children to college. We need to get back to an era of less consumption. We can thank our government predominantly Rs, but also Ds, for selling us out to Japan, Taiwan, China and Mexico.

[MercutioATC]

51. We make our own luck.

"Luck" isn't random. The majority of the time, what people call "luck" is actually opportunity based on past decisions.

[Juche]

56. Somewhat

How did the 8 million+ who lost their jobs in the last year after the financial system collapsed make their own luck? Not everything is under the individuals conscious control.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

59. We do?? I can't MAKE somebody hire me.

I have a Juris Doctor from a private Texas law school that cranks out excellent trial lawyers. Don't have a bar card.

Stopped looking for a job as a legal assistant (not one of those prissy little 2 year 'legal assistant' muffy schools for me) after I got one interview in two years of looking. I was a court reporter for a couple of decades and saw a ton of trials. If our society didn't tell people to get lots of education, and then throw them away, I would be TRAINING trial lawyers. But I'm not.

None of the multimillionaire partners in big law firms that I went to law school with, could give me a job, just couldn't do it, in spite of the fact that they take home a million or more a year BEFORE they earn their salary. I thought they were my friends. Wish their rabbis knew what kind of helpfulness they are into---none.

I get no respect, no job offers, nobody calls me Doctor. I just said to hell with it and retired to the country.

To hell with the legal profession. Fuck 'em all. And my father was an honest lawyer.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

61. By that reasoning, nobody can have any influence in anybody else's life.

Reductio ad absurdum.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

67. That's not what I said.

I said I cannot make somebody give me a job. That's legally called "duress" and is invalid as well as illegal.

Don't twist my words.

I wasted 10 years of my life getting two degrees (BA and JD) that never got me a job.

Fuck the economy.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

70. No, it's not what you said -- it's the logical conclusion of what you said. -nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

87. No it is not. You do not understand contracts.

Employment is a contract, usually at will.

Contracts, to be valid, must be entered into freely and voluntarily. Suppose that I went into a job interview, and put a gun to the interviewer's head and said, "Hire me or I will shoot!".

Besides being assault, that is putting someone under duress. Duress voids a contract.

What is so hard for you to understand? Did you spend nine months studying Contracts in law school, like I did? And then take two more semesters on Contracts, called Sales and Secured Transactions, and Commercial Paper? Or Agency and Partnership, which also has to do with contracts? Or Corporations?

As I said, I cannot force somebody to give me a job. I can go on a million interviews, but if there is no offer of employment, and no acceptance by me, with mutuality of consideration, there is NO CONTRACT. That means that both parties are obligated to perform certain duties in a valid contract.

The magic words are: Mutuality of Consideration. Consideration is defined as a promise to do, or not to do, a certain action or actions, in a mutually agreed period of time.

This is off the top of my head without looking in Black's Law Dictionary. I don't have time to explain the law to you any further than this. I'm busy gardening.

:banghead: :banghead: :grr:

[howaboutme]

71. Become an activist and advocate

The less empowered are in need of advocates. She and you should become advocates. No money but I would think satisfaction of helping is something that a corporate lawyer never gets.

I've often wished I had a JD instead of an engineering degree (but now retired), if only to become a true advocate and thorn in the side of our financial and corporate masters. Our judicial system says that it takes a JD to get attention and make them squirm, not an EE and pass your bar.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

90. The Great Vince Lombardi Said

"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity"


In this God forsaken economy there aren't a lot of opportunities.

[raccoon]

91. So, if I acquire a disability and can't work in my field any more, it was just a "bad decision?" nt

[HughBeaumont]

97. Siiiiiiiigh. This is low, even from you.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/92

[treestar]

65. moral: during any period when you make 100K, live like you make

about 40 and save for the down times.

I read one in our paper here about this poor lawyer who'd stopped working to take care of her kids and was forced by the recession to take a job again to supplement Husband's income. :cry:

[Liberal_in_LA]

76. Is that crying for the lawyer forced to work again? She's damn lucky in this economy to be able to

pick up work right away.

[tinrobot]

86. Pretty much the way anyone should live...

Not so easy to do a 40K lifestyle with two kids and Bay Area rents on 100k, but you could certainly live like you were making 70K, saving 30k/year.

[raccoon]

92. You're ignoring taxes. nt

[pitohui]

72. i know someone this happened to only she's older and her husband is useless

her husband is a drug addict so he neither works nor keeps the child, and i don't believe she will ever get such a job again, contract work is a joke (no benefits) so i assume that she will sooner or later lose her home

women just don't get much of a chance to make a mistake, once you're knocked off the partner track, unless you're sleeping w. the right person, you're prob. not gonna get back on it

depressing thought, even women we admire who have really achieved a lot seem to get knocked down hard unless they marry "up"

i would never marry a man AND give kids to a man who wanted to sit at home, that's a big warning sign right there to be honest, but what's done is done, the kids are there now and have to be fed

[MissB]

74. During the entire 8 years I was out of the workforce

I was always on edge about money- how much we had in emergency funds, how we could afford to increase our house payment while still contributing to retirement....

So I saved and cut corners as needed. And now that I'm back solidly in the workforce, I'm throwing every available $ in the bank (and retirement). Because it's darned scary out there. I feel for them, but no matter your familys income, it's so important to try to have an emergency savings. Not everyone can, but a $100k salary gave them some room if they've been living on savings for a bit.

[Liberal_in_LA]

78. smart one