Health Bill is NOT what "generations of Americans have fought for, marched for, hungered to see."

[omega minimo]

Mr. President, "some basic security when it comes to their health care" and "being able to purchase affordable quality insurance" is NOT what "generations of Americans have fought for and marched for and hungered to see."

For you to claim it as such, adds insult to injury to pre-exising condition.

That pre-existing condition is the Health Insurance Congressional Industrial Complex. This is their day. Clearly, by capitulating to their demands and the demands of Congress members who regard women as second class -- or lower than zygotes -- citizens, we ARE "a nation that scales back its aspirations."

This is not what the American people aspired to, when they voted you President, voted a Democratic majority and gave you a mandate to provide health care for all Americans.

This is your continuation of the Reagan "trajectory," which you praised during the campaign; this IS "punditry, all of the lobbying, all of the game-playing that passes for governing in Washington." Reagan was the master of flim-flam, telling people what to believe, feel good about, while their economy and social safety net were being disassembled.

Mr. President, at this time of unemployment and economic depression, we know that what this bill provides is access to health insurance for more Americans who may not be able to afford it; if they can afford to purchase health insurance, they may not be able to afford to pay for health care.

What it does not provide is what "generations of Americans have fought for and marched for and hungered to see": universal access to health care, which would eliminate a usurious and criminally negligent insurance industry's intervention, between American citizens and their health care professionals.

Capitol Hill has not done "what is hard, what is necessary, what is right;" but it certainly will "shape our own destiny."



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmq1XiXPTuM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

Obama's remarks at the Health Care Bill Signing
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/us/politics/24health-text.html

President Obama: The bill -- the bill I'm signing will set in motion reforms that generations of Americans have fought for and marched for and hungered to see.
:banghead:
Once this reform is implemented, health insurance exchanges will be created, a competitive marketplace, where uninsured people and small businesses will finally be able to purchase affordable quality insurance.
:banghead:
And we are blessed by leaders in each chamber who not only do their jobs very well, but who never lost sight of that larger mission. They didn't play for the short term, they didn't play to the polls or to politics:
:banghead:
You know, that our -- that our generation is able to succeed in passing this reform is a testament to the persistence and the character of the American people, who championed this cause, who mobilized, who organized, who believed that people who love this country can change it.
:banghead:
Our presence here today is remarkable, and improbable. With all the punditry, all of the lobbying, all of the game-playing that passes for governing in Washington, it's been easy at times to doubt our ability to do such a big thing, such a complicated thing; to wonder if there are limits to what we as a people can still achieve. It's easy to succumb to the sense of cynicism about what's possible in this country. But today, we are affirming that essential truth, a truth every generation is called to rediscover for itself, that we are not a nation that scales back its aspirations. (Applause.) We are not a nation that falls prey to doubt or mistrust. We don't fall prey to fear. (Applause.) We are not a nation that does what's easy. That's not who we are. That's not how we got here.

We are a nation that faces its challenges and accepts its responsibilities. We are a nation that does what is hard, what is necessary, what is right. Here in this country, we shape our own destiny. That is what we do. That is who we are. That is what makes us the United States of America.
:banghead:
And we have now just enshrined -- as soon as I sign this bill -- the core principle that everybody should have some basic security when it comes to their health care. (Applause.)

[ixion]

1. kicked and recommended

:applause:

[havocmom]

5. Make it a double!

:applause: :thumbsup: :applause: :thumbsup:

[emilyg]

67. Adding a triple.

[Mari333]

74. quadruple

[bvar22]

113. Quintiple?

THIS bill is NOT what Obama campaigned on.
Had Obama & The Democrats campaigned on Mandates without a Public Option, I would NOT have voted for them.
I don't think very many Americans would have voted for them.

On Edit:
It IS nice to see the Republicans in meltdown,
but not worth the Shit Pie we now have to eat.

[omega minimo]

122. You're right. That's what makes the "patience' puzzling. If not now, when? This was it.

[Donnachaidh]

2. BRAVO! for the posting, pointing out the distinctions. k&r. n/t

[Echo In Light]

16. +1

[omega minimo]

33. thank you

:toast:

[dflprincess]

194. Thank you for posting this

During all the self congratulatory back slapping yesterday at the signing I thought I was the only one getting ill.

And yes, Biden, it is a big fucking deal when the Democrats sell the people out to the corporations on a scale this big.

[LWolf]

3. K & R nt

[MindandSoul]

4. This is the BEGINNING of what THIS American voted for when she voted for Obama!

You have lots of critics. . .some are fair, most are totally unfair.

No one. . .not even the President has EVER said that this is the PERFECT bill and that it meets ALL our needs. . .
But it certainly is a lot more than we had even a year ago. . .or 10 years ago!

I guess some people will for ever focus on the half empty glass. . .I tend to focus on the hard work done, the countless insults and lies that were overcome to reach this HALF FULL GLASS!

[FiveGoodMen]

8. Suppose you lost a hand and were just given a hook to replace it.

You'd better not complain.

Why?

Your logic: No one said it was the perfect solution. But it's better than people had at some time in the past (before hooks).

I guess your glass is just half empty.

The problem is not with the inadequacy of the hook (when much better things exist) but with your attitude.

In other words: The perfect may be the enemy of the good, but that saying is the enemy of anyone who wants to do good.

[Bluerthanblue]

17. no, saying the perfect is the enemy of the good is realizing that

sometimes you have to crawl before you can walk.

And even though you know you WILL walk someday, refusing to crawl to get out of the way of an oncoming car may cost you your life- because you were too stubborn to make the progress that was available to you.



My glass is half full, and while I may need to sip from it from time to time to survive, I won't stop working to fill it, and to be sure everyone else is able to have a full glass too.

:hi:

[MindandSoul]

60. That's what we need to do. . .not rest before our glass is full (or close to it!

Defeatism has never brought anyone anything!

Actually, personally I think negativity and defeatism is totally AGAINST what America stands for!

[eridani]

108. And sometimes you just get knocked ass over teakettle down the stairs

Thump. Thump. Thump. Thump. Thump.

[MindandSoul]

58. You're kidding, right???? I think you've been watching too much Fox

and listening too much to Palin!

What makes you think that other countries with nationalized health care do that kind of thing????
You are soooo out of line!
it may take more than a month to get the BEST prosthesis. . .but it takes just as long whether you are paying $7.000 a year for health care (as we are today) or $3.500 as Canada is!

[FiveGoodMen]

65. My hypothetical was in no way meant to be an analysis of the new bill

It was strictly a way of criticizing the notion that we should be satisfied with whatever we get and that it's an attitude problem if we're not.

[1776Forever]

9. I am with you - it is a beginning! We live in a Capitalist Society & we have to work with it!

What we need now are more Progressives in the Congress & Senate! It is time to work to get us to that point where we can move on from this beginning to where we want to be! It is well known that most of the Senate is owned by Corporate money, and it is time to get rid of those that can be bought and paid for!

:thumbsup:

[omega minimo]

36. How do you plan to achieve that (good luck and more power to ya!)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html

[laughingliberal]

44. That and the President is endorsing Blue Dogs like Lincoln in primary races against

progressives like Halter. It's nuts! The woman is running ads in AR bragging about obstructing the Democrats' agenda and she is endorsed by the Democratic president. Kind of makes it an uphill battle.

[omega minimo]

48. that can't be good

"The woman is running ads in AR bragging about obstructing the Democrats' agenda and she is endorsed by the Democratic president."
:scared:

[DeltaLitProf]

49. Do you honestly think he'll lift a finger to help her now?

n/t

[Donnachaidh]

52. it was just reported they are sending James Carville down to campaign for her

that's the Dem Party supporting her. And I fully expect to see them do the same for Stupak. Part of the sausagemaking process.

[laughingliberal]

54. There you go! If that doesn't tell the story, I don't know what will. nt

[laughingliberal]

53. I do think so, yes.

For God's sake, Lieberman campaigned for McCain and stood on stage while Palin talked about him palin' around with terrorists. And he supported keeping Lieberman in the chairmanship of the Homeland Security committee.

Yeah, I think he'll help her.

[eridani]

109. You're kidding, right? He is kind to the people who kick his teeth in like Lieberfuck

--who actively campaigned against him, and shits on his own base. Of course he'll help her.

[Hippo_Tron]

150. A moot point given that either of them will lose in November

Standard practice is for Presidents to endorse incumbents of their own party. FDR tried to endorse primary challengers in 1938 and it blew up in his face.

[truedelphi]

172. I was hoping against hope that at some point in time

Obama would handle things in the manner that FDR did.

There always ends up being reasons why he won't.

[MindandSoul]

61. Well, certainly not by staring at YOUR half empty glass and whining!!!!

[liberation]

72. LOL, if I were you I'd worry more about the straw men you keep on building...

... they are a fire hazard, regardless of how empty our "glasses of water" are supposed to be.

I noticed you did not answer the question you were asked BTW>

[pundaint]

218. Capitalism is a tool to deliver benefits to the People. Corporations are permitted at the

discretion of the People. We own all the power. As soon as We recognize that capitalism is a bad economic scheme for delivering some of the necessities of life, we will change. Unfortunately the quality of our leaders accurately reflects the quality of our citizenry. This is not a Capitalist country any more than it is a Christian country, both are among our top 5 limiting beliefs, and are dangerous to our well-being.

[Bluerthanblue]

13. I agree- it is very much a part of the journey towards the society

that we can be.

To pretend it's no big deal is foolish and short sighted.

The fact that we've gotten to this place with all the misinformation and money paid out to de-rail and discourage passage speaks to how important it is.

If this was no big deal, would the Republicans/Conservatives be so hell bent on trying to stop it's success?

[omega minimo]

32. Who said "it's no big deal'? It's THE Big Fucking Deal!!

:applause:

[Bluerthanblue]

39. you are confusing me...

.. which i gotta admit isn't all that difficult. :silly:

This isn't "THE" fucking deal. We are a LONG way from that- but this legislation is A fuckin big deal.

I don't believe Pres. O said anything about this being an 'ending'- did he? Did I miss that?

:hi:

[omega minimo]

40. It would be a bigger deal

without the capitulation to industry, banksters, lobbyists and woman-haters and without the pretense that it is something that it is NOT. That last bit is for the cameras and history books, the spectacle of Nancy marching with her phallic gavel, Obama pronouncing flowery phrases about what people marched and fought for, knowing it isn't true .... playacting for posterity.

[Bluerthanblue]

51. I agree it's not the deal we need-

but the fact that it has actually happened, with ALL the money, disinformation, chaos etc that has surrounded this issue IS pretty impressive. And it is a BEGINNING.


Nancy did walk with that big gavel, and beside her walked a man who walked beside MLKjr. towards the future that still eludes us, but that we are closer to now than we were last week. I think if you ask John Lewis, he'll tell you it's a big deal. That it's a step forward- The racial slurs that greeted him the day of the vote shows that we are fighting against a kind of opposition that will use any means at their disposal to deter us.

It's a LONG road to freedom- towards a society where equality is more than just a buzz word- where freedom isn't used to justify greed and intolerance- but we're not standing still, or walking backward with this bill- imo.

:hi:

[liberation]

73. Again, the issue is not with the AMOUNT of the reform... but with the DIRECTION

If I were to travel from San Francisco to New York, it would be pointless to tell my critics that is going to take a while as I start swimming into the Pacific Ocean... when all they keep on telling me is that I should face East not West.

I find it utterly disturbing the depths of intellectual dishonesty people attempting to defend this piece of shit bill have to dig into.

[Bluerthanblue]

84. 'Amount'? intellectual dishonesty?

your illustration is kind of dishonest imo.-

If you needed to travel from SF to NY and refused a flight that required you to stop-over in Texas and Florida in order to get there you'd be pretty foolish to refuse. Particularly if you'd been waiting for days, and been bumped off several flights already.
Your critics would be right in questioning why you preferred to just sit around and wait while people suffered and died. And as much as this bill is NOT what I wish it were, and know it could be, it WILL help some people. Doing nothing wouldn't- and this bill is the best one that has gotten to this point in my entire life- (50+yrs)

:hi:

[omega minimo]

121. "Better than nothing"?

I don't want to rain on your parade. The frightening thing is, this was another test of how much the American people will put up with, how much corporate dominance of the process and our lives will we accept?

[liberation]

185. ... speaking of intellectual dishonesty

Oh my, what nice fallacies you just wrote.

Thanks for proving my point though... Let me use your same logic, please? Let's see, the shit I just had to clean from the sidewalk when I walked the dog this morning is far better than the current for-profit system we use in this country to manage health care. Ergo, my dog's shit would make a great "start" for a health care reform.

To whom in DC should I send the packaged dog poop so they can include as part of this so-called "reform?" After all, it is "better than nothing" right? And my dog is a champ and I am sure can produce more if needed be. I can double his ration of food so we can do our patriotic "duty."

[Leopolds Ghost]

142. Day-um. Kick n/t

[omega minimo]

119. I appreciate your optimism

I'm not sure how you see this bill moving us closer towards that future? Isn't it problematic to have the insurance companies firmly in charge of legislation, insurance lobbyists firmly in charge of legislators, insurance corporations firmly in charge of life and death matters and the Democrats with such a feeble grasp on women's rights?

I don't think Martin would endorse this at all. He would be commenting on social injustice, on outsourcing, on crumbling infrastructure, on global corporate rule, on the privatization of education. He would comment on the timing: this is a POKE IN THE EYE to the American people when we are in a depression. The for profit insurance companies still stand between citizens and their health care providers and now those companies have MANDATORY customers?

No. Martin would speak the truth.

[Bluerthanblue]

137. John Lewis doesn't agree with you- and neither do I.

I think he may have a little bit better insight into what MLK would have endorsed than you or me.

I have a neighbor whose little son has struggled since he was a baby with needing to have shunts put into his brain to drain off fluid. He's 4 now, and will have maxed out his lifetime max. health care benefits soon. The DR's say that he will eventually be fine, and not need any more surgeries for this. He's a wonderful little guy- this bill will make sure that he isn't cursed to a life without access to health care because he had the misfortune of being born with a problem like this.

Other people have children who will be able to stay covered under their parents policies until they are 26- children, and eventually adults who have pre-existing conditions will not be refused policies because of this bill.

NO- it isn't universal single payer care. I believe we WILL get to a place where that can happen, but that day isn't here yet, and doing nothing until we CAN achieve that is much worse than this bill.

I don't believe you "admire my optimism"- if you did, you wouldn't be working so hard to destroy it. I'm sorry that you can only see what is wrong with this bill- I'm not going to pretend there isn't aLOT that is wrong- but among the flaws ARE some positives. Positives that didn't exist before this bill was signed, and positives that are things we can build on as we go forward.

I see the flaws- most everyone I know can see the flaws- I don't see any hope in your perspective. It's clear you are angry and disappointed. How can you put that to use in a positive, constructive way?

[omega minimo]

141. Why pretend that the alternative to this bill was "doing nothing"? You fell for that?

"I don't believe you "admire my optimism""

How dare you say that.

"I don't see any hope in your perspective. It's clear you are angry and disappointed. How can you put that to use in a positive, constructive way?"

Hope? Like Hope and Change We Can Believe In?

You accept corporate rule? I don't. And I don't accept being taken for a nation of saps either. Positive and constructive is for more people to wake up and smell the globalization Kool Aid.

[liberation]

190. I believe it is called "false dichotomy" and is an integral part of any well stocked fallacy arsenal

It is a new spin of the classic "you are either with us or with the terrorist" Bush et al got so much mileage out of, when trying to shovel the super patriotic war on terror down our throats. Remember, they were also "certain" all those WMDs were going to show up, and us lefties were going to be oh so "embarrassed." Because, obviously "dear leader" knew better than us lowly liberals, who have been proven correct over and over again, since we were not being "practical" or "understood the reality."

Heck, they are so similar... even right down to the same "if we do not do anything is worse" (remember if we didn't invade Iraq, Osama was gonna come down and leave a trail of mushroom clouds across this beautiful country of ours). Oh, remember those wonderful Patriot Act and FISA bills, which we had to pass... because again the terrorist were gonna win, and we needed to have the tools to protect ourselves, which even though they were not "perfect" they were going to be fished later, but we had to pass in a hurry. Yeah, how is the "fixing" of those horrific bills coming along?


Jeez, I swear I could read some of the posts by some of the DU posters defending this piece of shit bill, and place them right next to the red herrings/straw men/false dichotomies I heard coming from Republicans,
during the 8 years of fun and games which were the Bush administrations, and they both read almost verbatim. Seems it is still the same fecal matter, it is the sphincter spouting it that is different. *sigh* The more things "change"... indeed.

[omega minimo]

197. brilliant

LOL "is an integral part of any well stocked fallacy arsenal"

You're right of course, the sort of observation meant to float with the "fecal matter" right down the ol' Memory Hole. Some of the same logic was used somehow on the Alito and Roberts appointments and their allegiance to corporate power and the Unitary Executive ... somehow if we keep pushing things into the future and let the mercenary forces have whatever they demand, all will be well ........................

I've heard this "Doing nothing would have been worse" stuff, as IF that was the alternative or even an OPTION in this matter. That's just cuckoo. In this thread, people saying "it might have been another 18 years before we saw anything......."

How beaten down are we as a nation?

[Bluerthanblue]

226. DK- said it would be another generation before anything happened-

if this bill didn't pass. It's been 16 yrs since the last attempt.

He's the only one here who has first hand knowledge of how real change has to happen, and his comments in Esquire today say exactly what I've been saying.

We have to live in the real world- my time here is limited. I don't have another 16yrs, neither do many people far more essential than me. This isn't a game or some debate competition. It's life and death for many, who don't have time on their side.

I hope you have a long and pleasant life.

:hi:

[omega minimo]

230. 2014

[Bluerthanblue]

222. guess you'd say the same to Dennis Kucinich too eh?

if so, I consider myself in good company-

You can continue to rant and rave- that is not very constructive imo. But you are free to do whatever you please.

:hi:

[omega minimo]

227. "But you are free to do whatever you please."

It is undeniable that corporations now run this nation and have carte blanche and rights as "persons" to do it. Another regulation on media consolidation has been struck down in court, news today.

"Free to do whatever you please" except have a government By the People, Of the People, For the People.

[bvar22]

105. Are you really going to base your assessment of the value of this bill...

...on what the fucking REPUBLICANS do?
I prefer to think for myself, and even if I didn't, I wouldn't base ANY decision on what the Republicans do.
LOL

[omega minimo]

126. especially if it's a big act to make this bill seem like it does more than it does

[Bluerthanblue]

139. no big act-

I'm looking at this bill with my eyes WIDE open-. Not denying that it is far less than we need, or have to have.

Bill and Hillary worked hard to try and get universal health care going a few years before my youngest son was born. It never even came close to happening, and in all the years since, we have had NO progress whatsoever towards any kind of health care reform. Now, we have a bill that has been signed by the Pres.- A bill that falls FAR short of what most of us believe we need, and WILL have, but a hell of alot better than we've had so far.

How will your constant complaining and doom-saying change anything??? Do you think you are accomplishing anything other than venting? What do you want people to say? Are you just looking for people to come and share in the negativity and hopelessness?

If so, I'm sorry, I'll leave you to it.

I wish you peace~

[omega minimo]

140. Why don't you answer the replies I made to your posts

instead of jump in here and miss the point on purpose -- which was a question of what's in it for Repukes to kick up a fuss about a bill that suits them fine and came from THEIR side of the aisle?


What do I want people to say? I want them to say they expect elected officials to deliver on the mandate they were elected to. I want them to say FUCK CORPORATE RULE. I want them to say I'M MAD AS HELL AND NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE. I want them to say WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE JOBS?

I want them to say WHY ARE THE BANKSTERS IN CHARGE OF THE ECONOMY THEY DESTROYED AND THE INSURANCE SHARKS IN CHARGE OF THE HEALTH CARE OF THIS COUNTRY? WHY ARE THE BANKSTERS AND CORPORATIONS AND INSURANCE SHARKS MORE INFLUENTIAL WITH OUR REPRESENTATIVES THAN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE?

I WANT THEM TO SAY :wtf:

[Bluerthanblue]

149. you can want all you like, but you cannot MAKE people

do or think what YOU want them to.

And the reality is that too many people for many wrong reasons DON'T want single payer, universal health care.

Your insistance on refusing to see ANYTHING positive in this bill, your continual bashing of this bill, claims that it is nothing but "a Repuke" bill- your mistake in thinking that Pres. Obama campaigned on the platform of "universal single payer health care"-(he DIDN'T- and I remember him debating with Hillary and saying very clearly that while he prefered the concept of universal single payer HC it wasn't realistic in the short term) are wearing thin.

Actually here are his exact words:
(Myrtle Beach Presidential Debate with Hillary Clinton 2008)
Obama:I never said that we should try to go ahead and get single-payer. What I said was that if I were starting from scratch, if we didn't have a system in which employers had typically provided health care, I would probably go with a single-payer system."

And in a 2007 New Yorker interview:
"If you're starting from scratch, then a single-payer system ... would probably make sense. But we've got all these legacy systems in place, and managing the transition ... would be difficult to pull off. So we may need a system that's not so disruptive."

I was listening closely to his views during the campaign as I have serious health issues, very limited income, and no access to health insurance. I didn't have any unrealistic expectations. Especially after what happened to reform back in the 90's and given all the chaos that fell upon Pres. Obama as he took office.

I want lots of things too.

I'm going to say good-nite, and wish you well. We're wasting each others time at this point I fear.

:hi:

[omega minimo]

151. He advocated for single payer, a public option. Have you "listened closely"

to who his corporate campaign donors are?

"And the reality is that too many people for many wrong reasons DON'T want single payer, universal health care."

Ah, and how do you find a positive, constructive spin on that?

[omega minimo]

157. ,

[Bluerthanblue]

138. I haven't based any decision of what the Republicans do-

where do you get that?

[omega minimo]

31. This is the BEGINNING of what THIS American voted for when she voted for Clinton!

Bill Clinton.

"But it certainly is a lot more than we had even a year ago. . .or 10 years ago!"

Or even 18 years ago, when Clinton took office with a mandate for universal health care.

[MindandSoul]

62. Yes! I also voted for Clinton in the primaries. . .but once again. . .I looked at the

half full glass: This bright, charismatic, young, Black politicien, and I realized that he was SOOOO much better than (not Hillary!), but Mc Cain!!!

And I am so glad I did!

But I still hope that Hillary gets in the White House some day.... And I am so glad that those two work so well together!

[liberation]

76. ... and it doesn't strike you as odd that the only choices you had from the Dem party in 08

were a neo-liberal corporatist from the Chicago school, and a former Goldwater Girl who was the president of the College Republicans chapter at her Alma Mater?

I find if funny, that those with the political acumen and sophistication of an artichoke feel entitled to lecture actual liberals who have been paying attention.

[Bluerthanblue]

94. and all your high brow paying attention has gotten you where exactly?

Lecture all you like- we have to live in the REAL world. And many people can't wait for the world to change. Many people have died waiting for the perfect- while being lectured by "actual liberals" who have little more than fancy words to offer.

You seem to be big on criticizing those who don't agree with you, and anxious to piss and moan about how terrible life is now that Pres. O signed this bill, but curiously short on TANGIBLE- realistic- solutions.

:shrug:

[Leopolds Ghost]

143. Where did all this REAL world rhetoric come from?

[Bluerthanblue]

152. 54 yrs of living on earth-

Being involved in and attentive to politics most of my adult life- personal experience- loss, illness, poverty, death, broken promises, dreams deferred-

It's good to aim high- but be ready to deal with the reality of where you land, and don't let your goal blind you to the progress you CAN make.

D. Kucinich seemed to think the right thing to do was to pass this bill as it is- He's a pretty progressive guy IMO- and not one to settle easily. :shrug:

Sorry Leopold- I'm gonna bow out of this thread. It's clear that some posters here seem to believe that those who dares to see anything positive in this mess is either 'deluded', ignorant, or not up to the high standards you and others seem to have ownership of.

:hi:

I wish you well.

[Raineyb]

180. And yet with this bill they are doing exactly that. Waiting. So what's the point? n/t

[liberation]

192. It has gotten me to many places...

... a PhD in science, tons of patents, a nice career, a beautiful and smart better half with whom I share a never ending love story, and awesome loving and functional family spread across 3 different continents, a secure future, having spent half of my life living overseas... and ironically, a great health and health care. Not that any of that matters, because this is an internet forum where different anonymous posters go to express their points of view. And we all know that on the internets, every model is a bored housewife, every brave soldier is some pussy kid playing computer games from his parent's basement, and every 10 year old kid is an FBI agent...

But, please by all means... "lecture me" about the "real world." Lord knows there is no better way to lecture other people about the "real world" than via assumptions, and made up scenarios in order to push an intellectually dishonest agenda.

LOL

[rapturedbyrobots]

203. hahahahahaha

damn. that was good. i wish i had two more hands so i could give this 4 thumbs up

[omega minimo]

102. Bill. Bill Clinton. Are you reading the posts you're replying to?

[Bluerthanblue]

85. and if this bill didn't pass, it might have been another 18yrs

before anything changed from the status-quo.

:shrug:

[liberation]

199. And if my grandmother had grown balls, we would have called her grandpa

I find kind of ironic that those of you lecturing others about the "real world," have to recourse to "what ifs" and made up "scenarios." I always thought the easier way to talk about the "real world" was via facts, you know.... the "real" part of that lovely "real world" you know so much about.

[omega minimo]

242. LOL

[rapturedbyrobots]

245. they waited 16 years

16 years since this bill (the bulk of it) was originally proposed by the republicans in 1993 as the Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act

it the bill is so good. and time is so critical. why weren't you rallying behind this 16 years ago?

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2010/February/23/GOP-1993-health-reform-bill.aspx

[SkyDaddy7]

75. SAME HERE!! Thank-you Obama!!!

Some people can't understand you can't get EVERYTHING you want in one year! This is a start it is not the end!

[dflprincess]

191. But this president did say he was determined to be the last president to deal with this issue

and he didn't ramp up his fight for the bill until it had deteriorated to the scam we're now stuck with. He ignored what the people wanted to get the Insurance Company Profit Protection Act passed and I seriously doubt that he will ever admit that we still don't have access to health care the way people in civilized countries do.

[omega minimo]

241. Well put

:hi:

[amborin]

6. K&R

[stray cat]

7. Not yet - so keep fighting; instant change doesn't usually happen

[MineralMan]

10. I'm not at all willing to reject this bill. Not at all.

I certainly don't think it is the full answer to the needs of the citizens of this country. By no means is it that. It is not, however, the horror you make it out to be.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Wielding Truth]

12. It is the awkward start. That is its redemption.It was and still is being hard fought .

It's frustrating that it is not a national single payer and there is no competing public option,but like any conception,this bill is barely visible now but after acceptance, growth, development it will become the responsible change we need.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

14. well here we are, the one country mandating private insurance

hilsarious aint it?

[eridani]

114. I'd gladly accept being forced to pay 100 euros/month for coverage

--that has NO copays, NO deductibles and NO age rating. The piece of shit that passed has no real regulation at all. Real regulation happens when the government DICTATES the contents and cost of a single uniform benefits package for all, as they do in the Netherlands and elsewhere.

[omega minimo]

127. It seems people are so beaten down, meat with maggots appears better than a bone

by comparison.

Promised something more nourishing and the maggots are calling the shots, but by god it's not a bone!!!

[Oregone]

15. Oh, its a historic victory. The "Big fucking deal" is just like the New Deal

:)

Hyperbole will cause the utter destruction of the moral framework of America

[omega minimo]

22. "The Big Fucking Deal"

:rofl:

[HughMoran]

18. Well, here's a surprise

[lamp_shade]

19. (Laughing so hard that no noise is coming out).

[Donnachaidh]

20. yeah, that's only allowed on the *we WON* threads.

:shrug:

[havocmom]

71. The 'hey, pass it and we'll fix it later' crowd seems to want the subject changed

Hmm, bet ya didn't see that one coming, did ya ;)

Sorta like 'of course I'll respect you in the morning' isn't it?

[liberation]

81. The doublethink going in that crowd is magnificent..

Apparently, health care reform is so important NOW that it can only be discussed and fixed LATER.

I don't even pretend to understand the logical dissonance one must suffer in order to think that argument makes perfect sense.

[Leopolds Ghost]

147. If criticizing the bill is beating a dead horse, does that mean "Fix it in Reconciliaton" was a lie?

[havocmom]

178. And probably not the only one

[liberation]

195. I would not call it a "lie" per se, their "doublethink" seems pretty honest.

Apparently, this is the "best" bill that can be passed right now when the Dems control both houses and the presidency. The bill will obviously be fixed later on, when it will be orders of magnitude harder and pols in DC won't have much of an incentive to actually change it. In fact the best way to fix the bill later on, is by squashing any constructive criticism and pretend this bill is the bees knees...

It makes perfect sense, don't it?

[omega minimo]

224. "when it will be orders of magnitude harder and pols in DC won't have much of an incentive"

well put.


crazymaking and procrastination

Stolen election?
Wait until Next Time

Illegal preemptive war?
Next Time the terror may be in your town

Stolen election (Next Time)?
Wait until Next Time

SCOTUS Corporatist/Unitary Executive X 2?
They'll just come back with something worse Next Time

Impeachable offenses
We have to win Next Time

Health bill leaving Insurance Industry in charge
Best we can do, there may not be a Next Time
We can fix it, Next Time

[Greyhound]

247. Just the last in a long line of lies that has taken Newt Gingrich's "alternative" plan

and turned it into the new and improved "Democratic Insurance Industry Profit Protection Act" (DIIPPA).

Watching the slow-motion implosion of a nation is disturbing, yet fascinating.

[dflprincess]

193. "I'll respect you in the morning"

Perfect comparison!

[amborin]

246. +10

[omega minimo]

30. Sorry, you'll have to walk

love the drawing :thumbsup:

[liberation]

77. Projection is the cruelest of mistresses... LOL

[Uncle Joe]

21. And yet a strong national public option was abandoned last August while the facade of

fighting for it was put forward.

That's the only logical explanation I can see for Durbin's nuclear war threat against all Amendments if a public option was included, he was protecting the secret White House position of abandoning it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7898669

This is one of the great under-reported stories of the health reform saga. Much has been written about the Obama administration's deal with big Pharma to continue to block Medicare from negotiating for lower drug prices or to allow consumers to buy cheaper drugs from Canada, in exchange for Pharma running pro-Democratic ads and giving campaign contributions to Democratic candidates. That's the reason, under pressure from the White House, that Senate Democrats voted down an amendment that would have allowed consumers to buy cheaper drugs from overseas.

But Obama's deal with the for-profit hospital lobby to insure there would be no public option has, as best I can tell, only been reported in two articles in The New York Times. On August 13, The Times reported that while President Obama had presented himself as "aloof from the legislative fray," particularly in connection with the public option, "Behind the scenes, however, Mr. Obama and advisors have been...negotiating deals with a degree of cold-eyed political realism potentially at odds with the president's rhetoric." One of the deals reported in The Times article was the Pharma deal. The other was a deal with the for-profit hospital lobby to limit its cost reductions to $155 billion over 10 years in exchange for a White House promise that there would be no meaningful public option.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7898669#7898691

But Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-IL) just announced that he would tell Democratic senators to OPPOSE all amendments, including a public option amendment, if offered on the Senate floor.

<snip>

Check out Durbin's absurd rationale for voting no on all amendments:

“We know the Republicans are likely to offer a lot of amendments, and some of them may be appealing to Democrats, but we have to urge them to stick with the bill.”

Thanks for the thread, omega.

[omega minimo]

28. Thank you, Uncle Joe

:yourock:

"Behind the scenes, however, Mr. Obama and advisors have been...negotiating deals with a degree of cold-eyed political realism potentially at odds with the president's rhetoric." One of the deals reported in The Times article was the Pharma deal. The other was a deal with the for-profit hospital lobby to limit its cost reductions to $155 billion over 10 years in exchange for a White House promise that there would be no meaningful public option.

[Uncle Joe]

38. One other point, Durbin wouldn't have done it, if he didn't believe

there were enough votes in the Senate to pass a P.O.

Peace to you, omega.:yourock:

[seafan]

82. This is what I find unconscionable. That we were lied to from the outset about a public option.

Watching the signing today, this was ripping through my mind.


Thanks for posting this, Uncle Joe.

[omega minimo]

130. +19,000,000

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

23. K & R!

[SargeUNN]

24. Why can't a new born baby walk and talk?

Because it is new born and the process of growth takes times. No this bill isn't perfect and leaves stuff to do, but like with anything, it is a process of growth. I don't see single payer having gotten this far, as much as I wish it would, however maybe this is going to help move us closer to single payer. It takes time, and this is a step forward. Let's work to move to single payer, but let's not forget we have to make progress and this is progress.

[liberation]

78. What do babies have to do with the fact that this is a reform in the WRONG direction?

Good grief, the logical fallacies so many of you are taking up on the creative detours from intellectual honesty are a sight to behold.

[change_notfinetuning]

25. If you call a horse's tail a leg, how many legs does a horse have? Right, and

it should be just as obvious that no matter how many times you call it health care reform, or sing its praises, it's still just the same ol', broken-down, profit-driven health care system, unless you are talking about the health of the profits of the multinational companies, whose bottom line is looking much healthier in spite of their "disappointment" in the passage of this "socialist" approach.

Real reform is lying under the bus, but they say they can save it. And I'm sure they will just as soon as the lobbyists driving the bus can move it, so they can get to the patient and breathe in new life. There goes the bus - back, and forward, back and forward, back and forth. OUCH! Over the patient again and again. What's the driver doing?

Uh-oh, better get a second opinion, now.
(Or Last Rites, maybe.)

[omega minimo]

27. LOL

:spray: :applause:

[omega minimo]

29. LOL

:spray: :applause:

[ScreamingMeemie]

26. Happy to K&R. As someone put so well the other night, this was a football game.

Won by team D for once. Helping the American people had nothing to do with it.

[Coyote_Bandit]

34. +1,000,000

which is one of the reasons I don't much give a sh*t about team D.

Team D has long ago abandoned a liberal and progressive agenda. They're just another bunch of fucking corporatists serving their corporate overlords.

[omega minimo]

37. and now we are their serfs

[bigwillq]

66. ....

:thumbsup:

[TorchTheWitch]

174. As long as I've been here that's all DU has mostly been

the Team D vs. Team R games.

[inna]

35. K&R

This absolutely had to be said. Thank you for doing that.

[omega minimo]

41. “The healthcare bill that was passed ultimately will be seen as a victory for capitalism,”

Thanks G_j

Michael Moore: Healthcare Bill “A Victory for Capitalism”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7994979&mesg_id=7994979

“The healthcare bill that was passed ultimately will be seen as a victory for capitalism,” Moore says. “It protected the capitalist model of providing healthcare for people—in other words, we are not to help unless there is money to be made from it.”

[branders seine]

42. bait and switch.

and hardore marketing to the infinitely gullible.

[omega minimo]

43. The Reagan Trajectory

"hardore marketing to the infinitely gullible"

Well put. Do people actually like being lied to?

[branders seine]

45. if the lies are sweet enough.

hell, if shit was sweet, most Americans would eat it.

[omega minimo]

46. who doesn't love a frozen treat on a stick?

Shitcicles!

[laughingliberal]

56. Seems that way.

I think when the Reagan Democrats 'came home' they should have left Reagan and not brought him with them.

[Nikki Stone1]

103. :)

:)

[omega minimo]

115. Good point. Not so much "coming home" as squatting

[Nikki Stone1]

83. yes.

.

[Skittles]

160. look at this gem

"All states will be required to offer public or non-profit insurance. You'll be surprised at how quickly the current system collapses."

:rofl:

[Edweird]

47. NO, it's what the RW has been dying to get passed since, I believe, Nixon...

[omega minimo]

50. take away the benefits, take away the jobs, take away the homes and who'll buy your shit?

MANDATORY CUSTOMERS.

[laughingliberal]

55. I just heard Joan Walsh on Ed, rebutting a Republican, say mandates were the brainchild of the

Heritage foundation. I wasn't working to see us adopt Heritage foundation policies.

[seafan]

88. You heard correctly. David Frum stated this in his "Waterloo" piece.

We didn't vote for a health care plan developed by the Heritage Foundation.



Frum:

.....

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise – without weighing so heavily on small business – without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law.

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.

.....

Got some news for David Frum.

The Republican Party remnants are now a fetid eddy current in the screaming fascist vortex known as the Tea Party.

[newspeak]

93. I keep telling people this is a repuke plan

Well, well so the heritage foundation--one of my favorite "devoid of thought" tanks just happens to have the same idea for health care. Now, you want to know why the repukes are against this bill--because they didn't introduce it--because they're bent on being the obstructionist party so maybe they can be the big men on campus again. It's all theater and politics--who gives a damn about the people--it's all about them, their greedy friends, and power. And, they've whipped up the crazies--the teabaggers--when the media is telling you where you too can join in the fight for nothing--you know that these people are being manipulated and controlled--and I believe, too stupid to realize it. You don't see the media announcing where to join the peace protests--but the media has gone out of its way to make sure that the teabaggers are noticed.

The teabaggers actually dilute those with valid concerns with this bill. See, you're against the bill just like those teabaggers. So, we who have big concerns about this bill are minimized because a group that listens to knuckledraggers like Rush Limpballs and Beck are out spreading their nothing message with bigotry and hate. They kind of neutralize the valid concerns about the bill, don't they?

So, when is Beck, Limpballs going to tell their followers that this is really a repuke bill-with a little regulation that I'm sure the industry can find their way around? The democrats do their bidding and they're still not happy, just like NAFTA.

[seafan]

106. You said it, newspeak.

.....

The teabaggers actually dilute those with valid concerns with this bill. See, you're against the bill just like those teabaggers. So, we who have big concerns about this bill are minimized because a group that listens to knuckledraggers like Rush Limpballs and Beck are out spreading their nothing message with bigotry and hate. They kind of neutralize the valid concerns about the bill, don't they?

.....

A tactic that is reminiscent of the Rove era: "Attack them on their strengths."

Our strength is the reasoned and rational understanding of the overwhelming shortcomings of this bill. And those shortcomings far overshadow the bill's positive aspects. That some people refuse to acknowledge that is something for which I have no understanding.


To counteract any fruitful discussion about this bill, the media shills who shove the cameras and microphones at the manipulated teabaggers and screaming harpies 24/7, simply drown out and marginalize the voices of rational people with legitimate concerns about the harm that this bill will perpetuate.

And added to that, we are insulted and discredited as being part of that lunatic fringe.











Something has got to give. And it will be very soon.

[omega minimo]

131. This is the Reagan Legacy. Obama's announcement typifies the "Reagan Trajectory"

Thank you for your posts here, spot on. :hi:

[seafan]

177. Thanks for this great thread, omega minimo. This issue is not going away.

Always remember:


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. ---- Mohandas Gandhi


The American people will win this battle. And it may be sooner than we dare hope.

[omega minimo]

184. Well that sounds

daringly hopeful! :toast: I won't even ask you how! "The American people will win this battle. And it may be sooner than we dare hope."

Thank you.:hi:

[omega minimo]

132. "It's all theater and politics--who gives a damn about the people--it's all about them, their greed"

"It's all theater and politics--who gives a damn about the people--it's all about them, their greedy friends, and power."

"So, we who have big concerns about this bill are minimized because a group that listens to knuckledraggers like Rush Limpballs and Beck are out spreading their nothing message with bigotry and hate. They kind of neutralize the valid concerns about the bill, don't they?"

Which begs the question: how are DU and Dems' Glass Half Full folk going to "fix the bill"?



Great post. Thank you. Love the "Well, well so the heritage foundation--one of my favorite "devoid of thought" tanks" :spray:

[Orsino]

57. I hope we weren't looking for an excuse to stop fighting, marching and hungering.

The Supreme Court has stacked every election against us for the foreseeable future. Step up your games, folks.

[pecwae]

59. knr.nt

[madrchsod]

63. i`m not happy that we got a couple of slices of bread when...

we voted for the whole loaf....

oh well what do we expect when money talks and we walk

[liberation]

79. I would have been happy with just a couple of slices of bread, we got less than that: the crumbs

and it is sad to see so many fools arguing that those are not crumbs, they are super concentrated manna from a 5-start Michelin restaurant.

[Nikki Stone1]

64. David Frum: Health insurance bill builds on ideas developed at the conservative Heritage Foundation

http://www.aei.org/article/101820

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney's Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the conservative Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

[Jumping John]

68. Iraq and Afghanistan have universal health care paid for by the US tax payer - as we do not!!! n/t

[liberation]

80. Given that we don't control most of Afghanistan.... I find that hard to believe

[ipaint]

101. Iraq- yes Afghanistan- a work in progress will probably end up like iraq.

Article 31 of the Iraqi Constitution, drafted by your right-wing Bushies in 2005 and ratified by the Iraqi people, includes state-guaranteed (single payer) healthcare for life for every Iraqi citizen.

Article 31 reads:

"First: Every citizen has the right to health care. The State shall maintain public health and provide the means of prevention and treatment by building different types of hospitals and health institutions.

Second: Individuals and entities have the right to build hospitals, clinics,or private health care centers under the supervision of the State, and this shall be regulated by law."

There are other health care guarantees, including special provisions for children, the elderly, and the handicapped elsewhere in the 43-page document.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-dorlester/guaranteed-health-care-in_b_280528.html




REACH Results in Afghanistan Shared at Global Health Conference

Evaluation data illustrated the significant impact REACH has had on expansion of health services in Afghanistan and on women's and children's health: in the 13 provinces covered by the REACH Program, 80% of the rural population now have access to basic and hospital services, up from under 10% at project start-up. Over 3800 health service delivery points are providing access for 7.5 million people to a basic package of health services.

Findings of baseline and end-of-project household surveys were also presented at the conference. Residents of 79 rural districts covered by REACH experienced a near doubling of deliveries attended by trained health providers; a two and one-half fold increase in children who are completely immunized; and one-quarter of rural women are using modern methods of contraception.

REACH representatives, along with Jim Griffin, Senior Health Advisor for USAID/ Afghanistan, emphasized the help received from partner organizations and local and international grantees in implementing new national Afghan health policies. Working together with key stakeholders, they said, REACH has not only helped to successfully increase access to health services but also to train community and other health workers and change perceptions about general health in Afghan communities.

http://www.msh.org/Afghanistan/news_room/press_releases/jun18_2006_REACH_results_GHC.html

[Jumping John]

128. You'd better sit down, folks. - paid for with blood and money of the US and others

Article 31 of the Iraqi Constitution, drafted by your right-wing Bushies in 2005 and ratified by the Iraqi people, includes state-guaranteed (single payer) healthcare for life for every Iraqi citizen.

Article 31 reads:

"First: Every citizen has the right to health care. The State shall maintain public health and provide the means of prevention and treatment by building different types of hospitals and health institutions.

Second: Individuals and entities have the right to build hospitals, clinics,or private health care centers under the supervision of the State, and this shall be regulated by law."

There are other health care guarantees, including special provisions for children, the elderly, and the handicapped elsewhere in the 43-page document.

Under force of arms, President Bush imposed his particular idea of democracy on a people not asking for it - perhaps a noble undertaking in one context and a criminal violation of international law in another. Bush's followers are proud of the Iraqi Constitution, a model for the world, they told us.

So, according to the American political right-wing, government-guaranteed health care is good for Iraqis, but not good for us. Not good for you. They decry even a limited public option for you, but gleefully imposed upon the Iraqis what they label here as "socialism," with much Democratic Party member support.

Indeed, reading the Iraqi Constitution so near to the 8th anniversary of September 11, 2001 is instructive. It is the very definition of American right-wing hypocrisy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-dorlester/guaranteed-health-care-in_b_280528.html

~~~~~~~~

Afghanistan Constitution Index Page Document Table of Contents

{ Official Title: Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan }
{ Adopted by Grand Council on: 4 Jan 2004 }
{ In Force Since: 4 Jan 2004 (cf. Article 162) }
{ ICL Document Status: 26 Jan 2004 }


Article 52
(1) The state is obliged to provide free means of preventive health care and medical treatment, and proper health facilities to all citizens of Afghanistan in accordance with the law.
(2) The state encourages and protects the establishment and expansion of private medical services and health centers in accordance with law.
(3) The state in order to promote physical education and improve national and local sports adopts necessary measures.


http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/af00000_.html

[ipaint]

176. Thank you for that last link.

I couldn't find much of anything on it and appreciate the correction.

People in this country don't have a clue.

[grahamhgreen]

69. Thank you! Agreed! Bill is a total sellout to big crapsurance.

[puebloknot]

70. Thanks for posting this *INCONVENIENT TRUTH*!

I'm a former insurance agent (before Englightenment and when it paid the bills without too much in-office time); I'm a woman who is no longer a spring chicken, with certain health problems; I'm the mother of a 30ish daughter who is worried about this issue for the future, and what she will do if she can't get insurance or just can't pay for it.

I have two neurons firing. I can read between the lines better than some because of my insurance background, but anyone with the will to look into it can see that this bill is positive in a very small way, and an outrage in a big way.

Evolved medical professionals are speaking out against the bill because it just does not do the job and because it keeps our health care ransom to money interests.

This celebratory mood many are engaging in is a bit like celebrating the fact that "The Terrorists" only got the World Trade Center, and not the whole of New York. But raining on this parade does not make Sal or Sally the most-loved citizen(s) at the moment.

It's sublimely hypocritical to counsel patience to the dying!

[saracat]

90. +10000

[puebloknot]

97. +10000 back. It's good to be understood. Joining forces in consonance with ...

... others who are willing to look honestly, rather than joining the crowd, is our best, and maybe only, hope!

Years ago, when I was somewhat unconsciously selling insurance (but eating is pretty high-minded), I met a woman who has been my best friend since. She was also an insurance agent, we were the same age, we became close friends. I will never forget the moment of epiphany years ago when she said: "It is absurd that a country as wealthy as America cannot organize itself to take care of its citizens' health care. Any civilized country can do that!" It was an awakening. It introduced the idea of health care as a right to my reasonably intelligent but highly conditioned American brain.

She was a Commie, pinko, socialist (her father actually was a socialist) foreigner (by some standards) who was a guest in America (working her way to citizenship). She was (and is) an Israeli citizen.

She is now an American citizen. Her daughter has just been diagnosed with MS. She has been *so* hopeful that pre-existing conditions would be a thing of the past in the New, Post-Bush, America. I haven't talked to her since the signing of the new "health care" bill. I dread it. She is devastated. Four years in the life of someone with a debilitating disease is an eternity. Maybe her daughter can find coverage under the claimed arrangement for those with life-limiting, life-distorting diseases. If not now, when?

We can sure as hell do better. We are being had. We are *willingly* being had!

[eridani]

120. Plenty of insurance agents really know. One is a new friend from whom I bought an annuity

She sells insurance, but refuses to sell health insurance on ethical grounds. She can't afford any for herself, and the shitty high risk pool she won't be able to afford either. She was able to get charity care when she broke her arm at least.

[seafan]

96. puebloknot, you hit it squarely on the head.

Eloquently stated.

..... but anyone with the will to look into it can see that this bill is positive in a very small way, and an outrage in a big way.

Evolved medical professionals are speaking out against the bill because it just does not do the job and because it keeps our health care ransom to money interests.

This celebratory mood many are engaging in is a bit like celebrating the fact that "The Terrorists" only got the World Trade Center, and not the whole of New York. But raining on this parade does not make Sal or Sally the most-loved citizen(s) at the moment.

It's sublimely hypocritical to counsel patience to the dying!

It‘s Not That the Health Care Bill Does Too Little Good, It’s That It Does Too Much Harm

[puebloknot]

98. Thank you. We have to stay awake and aware. Those who understand this bill ...

... and those who don't are likely to go back to sleep, now that we have the miracle of health care in America.

"And nothing is but what is not," according to one William Shakespeare!

[omega minimo]

110. Your perspective always appreciated. And in this case, you have inside awareness.

Let's hope we have more "evolved medical professionals" willing to speak up and advocate for sanity.

While I encourage those on DU who are motivated to "fix" this bill -- hopefully they're going to do the work and not just talk about someone else doing it -- part of the outrageousness of this is how willing people are to consider this "a start"? Aside from it NOT being anything remotely like what we were promised, and aside from keeping the Insurance Sharks in control, just like the Banksters that broke and "fixed" the economy, this has been a long time coming.

The situation we're in right now? Americans should not be rolling over for this. It IS outrageous. Seems the glass half full people don't quite realize how bad things are yet. Or think they won't be the people with no job, no subsidy, no way to pay for a mandatory system they still might not have money to USE.

Bloody outrageous and INHUMANE. We are a bunch of fucking saps.

IMHO.

[Cal Carpenter]

86. Indeed

:thumbsup:

[BlueIris]

87. K&R.

[leftstreet]

89. K&R

[MellowDem]

91. We get it, it didn't go far enough, but it's a step in the right direction

Progress comes in spurts and takes patience to truly achieve. You should probably learn that.

[Nikki Stone1]

92. Thanks for the meme, but it's a lunge in the wrong direction.

*Insurance companies can't have a lifetime cap, but they can have a yearly one. You can get your coverage stopped in mid-chemo

*Insurance companies can still practice rescission for "fraud", even though alleged fraud was the reason they gave for dropping sick people off their policies.

*Insurance companies can still charge high rates with no actual cost controls.

*We citizens now HAVE to buy this, under penalty of law, a financial penalty (which is impossible to pay for many people) or a criminal penalty if (1) the financial penalty isn't paid in a "timely" fashion or (2) if you provide false information:

______________________________________________________

(b) CRIMINAL PENALTIES.—Section 501 of the Em-ployee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (29 U.S.C. 14
1131) is amended— 15
(1) by inserting ‘‘(a)’’ before ‘‘Any person’’; and 16
(2) by adding at the end the following: 17
‘‘(b) Any person that violates section 519 shall upon 18
conviction be imprisoned not more than 10 years or fined 19
under title 18, United States Code, or both.’’. 20


They cannot be imprisoned (yet) for failure to pay their penalty IN A TIMELY FASHION

‘(1) INGENERAL.—The penalty provided by this section shall be paid upon notice and demand by the 5
Secretary, and except as provided in paragraph (2), 6
shall be assessed and collected in the same manner as 7
an assessable penalty under subchapter B of chapter 8
68. 9
‘‘(2) SPECIAL RULES.—Notwithstanding any 10
other provision of law— 11
‘‘(A) WAIVEROFCRIMINALPENALTIES.—In 12
the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely 13
pay any penalty imposed by this section, such 14
taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal 15
prosecution or penalty with respect to such fail-16
ure. 17
_____________________________________________

I have to say, I think the model, from the skeleton up, is regressive and punitive. I can understand how it came from the Heritage Foundation.

[MellowDem]

95. Like I said, it's not perfect...

but it is a step in the right direction. All you did was list ways that companies can still dodge increased government regulation. And I think you are being dishonest about the penalty fee. From what I've seen, it is very easy to avoid the fee if you don't make enough money to buy health insurance. And if you are in truly dire straits, you qualify for Medicaid regardless.

This bill increases government regulation of the health insurance industry. It will be seen to be not enough, but it will help many in the meantime, and it will make a public option more acceptable politically, and eventually single payer.

[Nikki Stone1]

104. Not perfect? The very basics are completely wrong.

When you have a bad fish, you can put all the sauce you want on it, but it's still a bad fish.

[MellowDem]

111. Not entirely...

we both agree that profit-based healthcare is the root of the problem. This bill more heavily regulates health insurance, but since many problems will still persist, mostly related to cost, there will be a push for something more to cut costs. This bill already compromised with insurance companies, and people will be more and more willing for more government involvement. Most already support a public option, and it will only grow in popularity as its seen that nothing else works.

[omega minimo]

134. "it will make a public option more acceptable politically" TO WHO?!!!!!!

:wtf: The public option is WHAT PEOPLE VOTED FOR!!!!!!!!! :evilfrown: "and eventually single payer.." How do you figure that?

[MellowDem]

155. To politicians...

and Americans. We already nearly had enough politicians to pass it, and now that this "compromise" has passed, they can't say that they didn't try to compromise and keep insurance completely private. It gives them more leverage and puts more blame on the insurance industry if costs continue to rise.

[omega minimo]

156. Oh ya mean the insurance industry that lobbies them with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$?

:crazy:

[MellowDem]

165. The one and the same...

obviously our political system is part of the reason as well. If we had better campaign finance reform, we'd have a public option. Heck, if we had proportional representation, we'd have a public option.

[omega minimo]

133. "Regressive and punitive" announced as victory during a depression

:crazy:

[Skittles]

145. I'm ready to give up, Nikki

the naivete is ASTOUNDING

[bvar22]

181. This is more than naivete.

There is something willful & malignant at the heart of this marketing blitz.

[puebloknot]

99. But *whose* life is sacrificed in the name of incremental "progress."

A miniscule portion of the "defense" budget could take care of all our citizens.

We have to get straight and get truthful about this issue. Sans anesthesia, we have to take a truthful look at where this country is headed and what our "leaders" are really about. It's extremely painful. I say that as the daughter of a WWII Vet who fought at Normandy and the Bulge. I'm a dedicated and loyal citizen, but I'm not willing to accept hand-waving and a shell game in lieu of truthful help for our laboring, dying citizens who are losing hope -- not incrementally, but in huge leaps, based on their own unavoidable reality!

[MellowDem]

107. I agree in general...

but keeping the status quo would have sacrificed lives instead of passing this bill.

[omega minimo]

135. No one said anything about "keeping the status quo"

:evilfrown: what game are you playing?

[omega minimo]

112. You should probably not tell people what they should do.

You should probably wake up and recognize what country you live in. "Progress"? :rofl: "Patience"? How long do you think we've been waiting ... for a coup for the insurance lobbyists? :wow:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7999028&mesg_id=7999899

[MellowDem]

116. It's good advice...

so don't take it personally.

Maybe you should tell that to the people whose live's will be saved by this bill? You should go up to them and laugh in their faces while saying "Progress!?" in your most cynical and incredulous manner, which shouldn't be too hard for you to pull off. ;-)

[omega minimo]

125. Why don't you get "the people whose live's will be saved by this bill" to tell that to

the people whose lives are SCREWED by this bill? Did you look at the link? That's what this is about. Your attitude is absurd.

[mdmc]

100. wow..

[SnoopDog]

117. This bill is not Historic...

As I wrote before...

When the majority of the bill simply removes (some and not all and not at all immediately)
the most barbaric inhumane uncivilized unethical practices of the Health Insurance (Leech) industry.

[omega minimo]

124. "most barbaric inhumane uncivilized unethical practices of the Health Insurance (Leech) industry"

Well put

[Ardent15]

118. K and R

nt

[midnight]

123. K&R Because if Israel, France, Canada, Cuba, can offer health care treatment

without mandates, we can too.

[ibegurpard]

129. K&R

[omega minimo]

136. thanks for chiming in, ibegurpard

nicetameetcha :toast:

[Skittles]

144. it's a scam

[StevieM]

146. I've never been happier with this Administration then I am right now (eom)

[pundaint]

207. Agreed, they have consistently been underperforming. I see you also caught on to their

abrogation of their entire campaign, once they got sworn in. As more of us pay attention, more of us will get it too. If only the Republicans were not such dicks, we would have somewhere to go, but they are, and we have not. We need more primary liberals, and fast.

[upi402]

148. My buzz is officially harshed, except

that I do love seeing the Republicans getting their noses rubbed in it, like they constantly do to the "Dems".

The DLC branch of the corporate Uniparty wins one, and we think Christ returned!

[Radical Activist]

153. You're being too short sighted.

You really think the for-profit insurance system will remain the same after they're forced to carry more expensive customers, actually provide care, AND compete with non-profit coops? No way. You're foolishly underestimating Obama if you think this bill wasn't designed to lay a groundwork for major change.

[omega minimo]

154. "the for-profit insurance system" is in charge

for the long term

[Radical Activist]

158. Not anymore.

All states will be required to offer public or non-profit insurance. You'll be surprised at how quickly the current system collapses.

[Skittles]

159. LOL

:rofl:

[omega minimo]

162. The glass is half full

[Radical Activist]

164. Yeah, at some point

the constant negative assumptions about the future based on absolutely nothing but the most grim outlook point to a personality issue.

[Skittles]

167. yes, it is omega's personality that is the problem

not HCR :rofl:

[Radical Activist]

169. I'll give you a more meaningful and respectul response than you've given me.

Think this through. Suppose you're an insurance company CEO. All of sudden your costs are going up because you have to cover more expensive customers with pre-existing conditions. You can't drop your other expensive customers and deny care so easily anymore. And your main competition is now a company that isn't even allowed to make a profit. Next think you know, some state like Vermont starts setting up a single-payer system.

What happens? You get out as soon as you can because the economics don't work in your favor anymore. Pretty soon the whole industry is getting out and changing because this scam of getting rich by denying coverage doesn't work anymore. Get it?

[Skittles]

171. LOL

it's you who does not get it - they'll gouge millions of Americans forced to buy their crappy insurance, AND gouge the pre-existers as HIGH RISK!!!!!! Add to that HUGE DEDUCTIBLES and CO-PAYS and OTHER NONSENS (our government has HELPFULLY given them enough TIME to think of other ways to FUCK us)..........it's a WIN-WIN for them!!!

THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS WITH HEALTHCARE IN AMERICA WERE NOT ADDRESSED WITH THIS BILL

http://rawstory.com/2010/03/noam-chomsky-health-bill/

[Radical Activist]

173. Every state must offer non-profit or public insurance.

Why would people suffer the huge co-pays, deductibles and other nonsens when they have another option? They won't, and that's why the worst of the private insurance companies will fade away. They won't be able to compete.

[Skittles]

239. yeah, we will see how THAT goes

where is your link for that? My guess is the words OPT OUT will be included.

[omega minimo]

187. Thanks for that link

[omega minimo]

186. Don't forget to factor exorbitant drug prices into your calculations

[Warren DeMontague]

198. There is a singular tense usage in that post that I think is incorrect.

I will say no more.

[omega minimo]

205. .

Your "singular tense usage" speaks for itself :wow: WANK!!

[Warren DeMontague]

217. Another interesting thing about the English language is that "you" can be singular, or plural.

You know what I'm talking about.

[omega minimo]

219. .

:boring:

[omega minimo]

168. "Based on nothing"? You have no idea what you're talking about.

[pundaint]

202. Either that or historical awareness. Sometimes we need a little Change to support our Hope.

The Democrats have delivered neither Change nor reason for continued Hope.

[omega minimo]

229. looking more like Disaster Capitalism

interesting too that this year long mass debate has gone on while unemployment and foreclosures and bankruptcies rage on.......

[PeaceNikki]

233. Alternatively... "THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!111"

I suspect the truth is somewhere in between.

[omega minimo]

240. The sky is falling? Rilly

Alternatively, accept that you now have corporations running your nation and your life.

[omega minimo]

161. When?

2014? Did you see the link to the SCOTUS decision, for those who don't know who's runnin the gubmint now? Are you aware of the lobbyists influence on this topic and this legislation and the election of this Congress and President? Those links are here too.

You'll be surprised at how quickly the current promises dissolve into nothingness.

[Radical Activist]

163. You have no faith in the people, do you?

Are you aware of the power voters exercised in the last election and of the left's ability to organize if we do something more useful than bitch and moan about Obama? There will be pressure to improve. So far you've given me nothing but platitudes and negative forecasting.

[omega minimo]

166. If

"Are you aware of the power voters exercised in the last election and of the left's ability to organize"

If it's powerful -- and yes I do respect it -- why are we being taken for saps and sold out to corporate interests? Where is the public option that most Americans are in favor of? How is that organizational power going to stand up to SCOTUS-sanctioned, unregulated, unlimited corporate expenditures in our elections?

[Radical Activist]

170. See Reply 169

Again, you're being short sighted and not seeing the bigger picture.

[omega minimo]

188. Again, you're being short sighted and not seeing the bigger picture.

Again, you're being insulting

[Radical Activist]

209. And again, you've offered nothing as a counter argument.

Except complaining and repeating platitudes. It's no different than arguing with a talk radio cultist who just keep repeating that it's a socialist takeover without knowing why.

[omega minimo]

212. BS

I ignored your previous insult and offered #166 in discussion, which you ignored and added another insult. Now you're telling me how I should post (for "counter argument" since discussion escapes you) in reply to your "See post #XXX" and adding more insults, which tells me you are playing games and disingenuous. :puke:

[inna]

249. Pure, classic projection on your part.

[pundaint]

234. Right we get to choose between a pair of loon Republican Corporatists, or a pair of dapper

Democratic corporatists. The Democrats won and in their first year, renewed virtually all the big policies of the previous radical war-mongering corporatists. The People won big time. So far you offer nothing but unreasonable hope. People only make change through revolution against their oppressors. Are you aware of the advance in marketing science? With the media and money, enough people can be made to believe anything. They have the vote, but corporations and the media, have their brains.

[omega minimo]

243. spot on again

[pundaint]

211. Where will/does that mandate come from?

[pundaint]

201. Of course they will, they are for-profit enterprises, it's their duty as upheld by the Supreme Court

And anyone with even a little business savvy can see huge loopholes in the legislation for adhering to the "letter of the law," while continuing to screw America. For instance they can charge up to 3 times regular premiums for higher risk clients. The pool of higher risk clients can be doubled with simple underwriting rules. Another example is the $100/day fine for screwing over people in treatment - once treatment is required, $100 a day would be a hugh bargain. Will they do this to everyone? No, but they will make sure they don't leave any headroom in meeting the loss ratio requirements.

With this much power in the market, Health Insurers will easily be able to manipulate all health care costs upward. Since the only control is on percentage, higher costs only mean more profits. Sure they're limited to a 20% cut, but if costs double over the next 5 years, so will their profits.

It will all be done by the letter of a pretty weak law.


edited for gud spelin

[omega minimo]

210. Frightening

[Greyhound]

175. K&R.

[seafan]

179. Kick. n/t

[mikelgb]

182. I agree I was yelling at the screen on that speech.

[omega minimo]

189. It was too much

:toast:

[femrap]

183. K and R a zillion times.

Plus Obama is so excited about his little Executive Order that throws ALL women who work paycheck to paycheck trying to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table UNDER that damn bus AGAIN by forcing them into Compulsory Motherhood.

I bet his mother isn't too happy about that.

Any woman who doesn't want to have a child should NOT be forced to have one because of lack of funds...or is this to keep the Payday Loan companies in business and/or to provide human cannon fodder for the next generation.

John Lennon was right....

The Democratic Party does not support women who claim their destinies as their own.

[Riverman]

196. Completely Agree- Celebrating Giving the American People Over

to the rapatious Insurance company, is nothing more than Ner Fiddling While Rome Burns! Good Job Obama- you have made your over-lords very happy and even more wealthy.

[paulk]

200. it really bums me out

to have to agree with you...

[omega minimo]

204. LOL

:hi:

[lifeliberty345]

206. If this was really that bad...

The Republicans wouldn't be freaking out.

So...

I support the Democrats.

[omega minimo]

208. Are they really freaking out or playing to the cameras?

[Nikki Stone1]

213. Hmmm...

..

[bc3000]

214. K&R- we need to stay on these weasels.

If we don't keep the pressure on, democrats will probably weaken this bill rather than strengthen it.

[stevenleser]

215. Kick and Big UnRec from me. I totally disagree. (n/t)

[omega minimo]

220. Well thank god you have UnRec to really make your point. (n/t)

:shrug:

[stevenleser]

223. And I am sure you similarly criticized those who had to Rec to make their point.

:eyes:

[omega minimo]

228. I'm more interested in what you think than what button you push.

[stevenleser]

235. I'm sure we can regurgitate the talking points of both sides in our sleep.

Do you really need me to restate the pro-bill points?

Edited to add: Do you think we have a chance of changing each others minds if we restate our positions a few more hundred or thousand times? Its all been said and resaid on DU over and over again.

[omega minimo]

236. Think is not = Talking Points.

[stevenleser]

237. No, you can never know what someone else thinks. Only what they tell you. And on a webforum, that =

talking points.

[omega minimo]

238. speak for yourself

:hi:

[stevenleser]

244. Whatever dude.

[earth mom]

216. I am SICKENED by what I've seen this past week and how some DUers have cheered this massive rip off

of the people's money.

And I'm sickened too that Kucinich was coerced into voting for it too.

There is no one who gives a shit about the people of this country in Washington DC.

We are screwed. :argh:

[omega minimo]

221. We have failed several civics tests in recent years. This was one.

[zipplewrath]

225. I'd sure like to see an explanation of how you're wrong.

They keep telling me it's a victory. But when I ask why, I get screaming, cursing, and cartoons.

Health care is an option, health insurance is an obligation. Where's the BFD?

[omega minimo]

231. speaking of 3/5ths of a person

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8008227&mesg_id=8008227

[lonestarnot]

232. K & R!

[omega minimo]

248. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8012259&mesg_id=8012259